Freedom Panther

Please fill me in. How old is your child who is figuring out multiplication
and division on his own with Legos, cookies, and video games? How is he
"doing this on this own?" I guess the real question is, what interaction do
you have with him to ensure that he is "learning" these things?

I'm looking for suggestions to "naturally" use things in everyday life to
illustrate/make available these concepts to my own 9 1/2 year old. Any info
very much appreciated.

Freedompanther


>From: "psam ordener" <psamo@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Where to start?
>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 08:55:34 -0600
>
> can anyone PLEASE give me
> > some advice? thank you!
>
>Sure - relax and take care of the new baby!
>
>We've been unschooling for 4 years. My children have continued to learn,
>day after day, without any structured lessons. My 8yo is picking up
>multiplication on his own. My 14yo has studied algebra, chemistry and
>American and Texas history on his own initiative. No workbooks - just
>plenty of access to the library, to the Internet, to Mom and Dad, and to
>other adults who will answer his questions.
>
>Read some of John Holt's books. Read this article that was in the Houston
>Chronicle yesterday. The author, Crispin Sartwell, is chairman of
>humanities and sciences at the Maryland Institute
>College of Art in Baltimore:
>
>http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/editorial/outlook/1262000
>
>Deschool yourself. Know that the educational system doesn't work, so that
>copying it won't work at home either. People learn naturally because
>that's
>what Nature intends for them to do. Perhaps they won't learn the same
>things kids at school are learning - but they'll be able to learn them, at
>any time they become important. An education is not just a
>government-mandated set of classes on specific subjects.
>
>The longer we unschool, the happier we are with it. DH thought it would
>work for our first child, who is intellectually gifted, but didn't expect
>it
>to work for our second, who is intellectually average. It works well for
>both of them. It's the "average" kid who's figuring out multiplication and
>division on his own, with Legos and cookies and video games.
>
>It works! Trust yourself, trust the kids.
>
>psam
>psamo@...
>
>Motherhood - not just a job, it's an Adventure!
>


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i am wondering the same.


Please fill me in. How old is your child who is figuring out multiplication
and division on his own with Legos, cookies, and video games? How is he
"doing this on this own?" I guess the real question is, what interaction do
you have with him to ensure that he is "learning" these things?

I'm looking for suggestions to "naturally" use things in everyday life to
illustrate/make available these concepts to my own 9 1/2 year old. Any info
very much appreciated.

Freedompanther





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

psam ordener

----- > Please fill me in. How old is your child who is figuring out
multiplication
> and division on his own with Legos, cookies, and video games? How is he
> "doing this on this own?" I guess the real question is, what
interaction do
> you have with him to ensure that he is "learning" these things?

He's 8 years old. It started when he wanted cookies for himself and his
brother - two for each. "How many is that?" I'd ask, and he'd count up on
his fingers. Then I showed him that 2X2 is the same thing as 2+2. Then I
had to make sure he understood that 3 X 3 wasn't 3+3, LOL!

He's also saving money to buy something. He gets $4 per week allowance.
He's been figuring out how many weeks it will take to get $38 at $4 per week
. . . slowly but surely, he's making the connections.

He gets his Legos and puts them in rows - 4 in one row, and 4 in the next
row, and 4 in the next, and says, "See, Mommy? 4 X 3 is 12!"

I can tell he's doing it, because we talk about it. I don't teach - but I
interject ideas into our conversations, like pointing out that there's an
easier way to figure up how much allowance he'll have in 7 weeks than adding
4+4+4+4+4+4+4. When he wants to know more, I show him. When he loses
interest, I stop.

He's fascinated by math right now. He plays with his calculator a lot. He
has figured out how much older he is than each of the cats, how much older
is brother is than each of the cats, etc.

It's easy to tell what's going on, and to encourage it with real-life
examples.

psam
psamo@...

Motherhood - not just a job, it's an Adventure!

Freedom Panther

Psam,

Thanks for the feedback. My son is 9 1/2 and couldn't really give a rip
right now when it comes to math. I am doing my best to leave it alone, but
I admit to sometimes feeling pressure (which I put on myself, of course).
But your explanation caused me to remember that, just the other day, Dylan
"discovered" Calvin & Hobbes, and began reading with a fervor...something
he'd been totally unwilling to do up 'til then...and he was so taken with
the book that, having read 24 pages the first night, he looked ahead to see
how many pages the book contained and estimated he had only 4 more days of
material left.

Your response lends comfort, as it helps me realize that my son may one day
have an interest in math, as he now does with reading (of the sort that
suits him).

Any thoughts on this one?: He stopped me short just yesterday when he
misspoke. I can't even remember what the word was, but let's just say he
used "seen" when the proper word usage would have been "saw." I gently
reminded him in what context the word would appropriately be used and he
retorted "I talk the way I talk and that is that." Talk about a dressing
down!

He's such a teriffic kid, and I want the best for him, and I want to stay
out of his way. But does anyone have any suggestions on what to do about a
situation like this? I don't want to trample all over him and "correct"
him all of the time (and there are lots of things I choose to let go and
don't point out to him), but if I don't offer the proper grammar usage, at
least from time to time, where will he get it?

Open to input!

Freedompanther



>From: "psam ordener" <psamo@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legos,cookies,videogames
>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:56:07 -0600
>
>
>----- > Please fill me in. How old is your child who is figuring out
>multiplication
> > and division on his own with Legos, cookies, and video games? How is
>he
> > "doing this on this own?" I guess the real question is, what
>interaction do
> > you have with him to ensure that he is "learning" these things?
>
>He's 8 years old. It started when he wanted cookies for himself and his
>brother - two for each. "How many is that?" I'd ask, and he'd count up on
>his fingers. Then I showed him that 2X2 is the same thing as 2+2. Then I
>had to make sure he understood that 3 X 3 wasn't 3+3, LOL!
>
>He's also saving money to buy something. He gets $4 per week allowance.
>He's been figuring out how many weeks it will take to get $38 at $4 per
>week
>. . . slowly but surely, he's making the connections.
>
>He gets his Legos and puts them in rows - 4 in one row, and 4 in the next
>row, and 4 in the next, and says, "See, Mommy? 4 X 3 is 12!"
>
>I can tell he's doing it, because we talk about it. I don't teach - but I
>interject ideas into our conversations, like pointing out that there's an
>easier way to figure up how much allowance he'll have in 7 weeks than
>adding
>4+4+4+4+4+4+4. When he wants to know more, I show him. When he loses
>interest, I stop.
>
>He's fascinated by math right now. He plays with his calculator a lot.
>He
>has figured out how much older he is than each of the cats, how much older
>is brother is than each of the cats, etc.
>
>It's easy to tell what's going on, and to encourage it with real-life
>examples.
>
>psam
>psamo@...
>
>Motherhood - not just a job, it's an Adventure!
>


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

Kolleen

>if I don't offer the proper grammar usage, at
>least from time to time, where will he get it?
>Freedompanther


He will get it from modeling. And that doesnt' include correcting him
when he is wrong. So just speak away, correctly, and eventually he'll
pick it up when its necessary to do so.

have faith in him...

regards,
kolleen

Freedom Panther

OK! Will give it a whirl. Thank you, Kolleen.

Freedompanther


>From: Kolleen <Kolleen@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: "Unschooling.com" <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legos,cookies,videogames
>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 02 20:18:24 -0500
>
> >if I don't offer the proper grammar usage, at
> >least from time to time, where will he get it?
> >Freedompanther
>
>
>He will get it from modeling. And that doesnt' include correcting him
>when he is wrong. So just speak away, correctly, and eventually he'll
>pick it up when its necessary to do so.
>
>have faith in him...
>
>regards,
>kolleen


_________________________________________________________________
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[email protected]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:04:43 +0000 "Freedom Panther"
<freedompanther@...> writes:
> But your explanation caused me to remember that, just the other day,
Dylan
> "discovered" Calvin & Hobbes, and began reading with a
> fervor...something he'd been totally unwilling to do up 'til then...

Calvin and Hobbes are the bomb. We have the whole set, plus an extra copy
of Yukon Ho! we ended up with somehow.

>and he was so taken with
> the book that, having read 24 pages the first night, he looked ahead
to see
> how many pages the book contained and estimated he had only 4 more
> days of material left.

This is why I think that separating "math" from "life" is harmful. Stuff
like this happens all the time, we're just not conditioned to see it.

>
> Your response lends comfort, as it helps me realize that my son may
one day
> have an interest in math, as he now does with reading (of the sort
> that suits him).

That's the lovely thing about unschooling - he only has to read what
suits him. My daughter spent at least a year reading nothing but Calvin,
the Far Side, Asterix, and the Archies...
>
> Any thoughts on this one?: He stopped me short just yesterday when he

> misspoke. I can't even remember what the word was, but let's just say
he
> used "seen" when the proper word usage would have been "saw." I
gently
> reminded him in what context the word would appropriately be used
> and he retorted "I talk the way I talk and that is that." Talk about
a
> dressing down!

I would feel pretty ashamed if someone corrected my grammar, no matter
how gently. I don't do it to other people. The whol idea of prescriptive
grammar is controversial, anyway, ask a linguist. People eventually end
up talking the way peope, around them and/or people in books they read
talk, barring a languagfe disorder of some sort.

Sometimes it is very hard not to correct, but I really don't unless I'm
sure it's welcome. The one exception seems to be word pronounciation - a
lot of big readers (including me) end up promouncing words that they've
read but never heard incorrectly. I never minded a gentle correction on
that, and Cacie doesn't seem to either... but her dad did, so he still
pronounces pseudonym as swade -o - nim and I don't comment.
>
Dar
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Bonni Sollars

Freedompanther, he will eventually talk the way his parents talk. In the
meantime, rather than correct him, you might try paraphrasing him with
the proper words.This demonstrates both that you are listening and how to
say it properly, without scolding. Y'know, there's nothing wrong with
using slang. My children use all kinds of special slang words to talk
that they pick up at the teen center and among friends. I used to go to
a school with 3% white and 94% black people. And I could not believe how
snobby those white people were when they would criticize the slang talk
of the black people, which I thought was very cool and
interesting(ebonics?). I once sang in a choir with Jester Hairston and
he explained how the African slaves could not pronounce certain sounds in
English, then passed that style of speech to their children and so forth.
He said you wouldn't criticize a Frenchman for not being able to say
certain vowels or consonants in English. I come from a hispanic
background, and my cousins would talk their street chicano slang to their
buddies, then turn around and talk perfect English to me. I, on the
other hand, grew up reading a lot of books and learned languange really
by reading so much. But I still talk like my parents, especially like my
step mom's family with whom I am very close and they say "ain't" and
"whole 'nother" and use all sorts of country bumpkin-type idioms in their
conversation. Sometimes I feel embarrassed that I talk like that and I
work on sounding more dignified, especially when I am speaking in public.
But, sure'nuff, at home with my kids I sound like reeeal country
bumpkin, if you can do that with a hispanic, high pitched voice like
mine. Then throw in a few curse words I learned from my stepdad, and I
am extremely improper in my word usage when I'm relaxed. But at work, I
am very professional. And with most of my friends I talk clearly and
properly. My mother is from New York and is extremely articulate, so I
must get that from her. All this to say, don't be afraid that people
will not respect your child for the way he speaks. He will learn on his
own that if you want people to respect you and really listen to your
opinion, you have to conform a little to accepted standards of
communication. But that will probably come by being embarrassed a few
times rather than by being scolded.
Bonni

[email protected]

In a message dated 2/26/02 8:06:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
freedompanther@... writes:

<< but if I don't offer the proper grammar usage, at
least from time to time, where will he get it?
>>
He will get it from hearing you and others use the "correct" grammar. How did
he learn to use the correct grammar he uses now. . . surely not with you
correcting him everytime, I wouldn't think.

living in abundance
lovemary

Freedom Panther

Wow, Dar,

I was wondering what we were going to do when Dylan ran out of Calvin books.
I've been racing to buy them up so he doesn't run out of material. I know
my hubby and I have always liked The Far Side, and I didn't even know they
had books out. I will have to look for Asterix, also. I've never heard of
that one.

More on Calvin: Dylan's reading last night prompted him to follow the lead
of Calvin who creating a huge "snow head" peering out over the crest of a
hill. First thing this morning, he donned his snow gear and went out side
to build one. I haven't been able to interest Dylan in leaving the house
all winter (although he gets out when at friends' homes). And he went out
all by himself, while I was otherwise involved. And he's building things,
inspired again and again by Calvin. (Dylan just hollered to me from his
bedroom "Mom, I'm on page 62...(bragging - I love it!).

So, I guess I can let the grammar thing go! My husband had to correct my
grammar when we worked together, and I was seventeen. I was never made
aware, prior to that time, that I was misspeaking at all. And, yes, I was
mortified...but I was very motivated to learn the "accepted" way to express
myself using those terms. Perhaps you and Kolleen are right, though. I'm
going to see if I'm up to the task of "letting things slide." Might require
some intense prayer on my part!! (Dylan is cackling hysterically, now, as
he's reading a strip about Calvin getting the snot beaten out of him by
Susie...he loves it when Calvin's male ego gets a good bashing. Actually, I
do tooo!)

Thanks for your willingness to share your thoughts. Much appreciated.

Freedompanther


>From: freeform@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>CC: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legos,cookies,videogames
>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 18:46:58 -0700
>
>
>
>On Wed, 27 Feb 2002 01:04:43 +0000 "Freedom Panther"
><freedompanther@...> writes:
> > But your explanation caused me to remember that, just the other day,
>Dylan
> > "discovered" Calvin & Hobbes, and began reading with a
> > fervor...something he'd been totally unwilling to do up 'til then...
>
>Calvin and Hobbes are the bomb. We have the whole set, plus an extra copy
>of Yukon Ho! we ended up with somehow.
>
> >and he was so taken with
> > the book that, having read 24 pages the first night, he looked ahead
>to see
> > how many pages the book contained and estimated he had only 4 more
> > days of material left.
>
>This is why I think that separating "math" from "life" is harmful. Stuff
>like this happens all the time, we're just not conditioned to see it.
>
> >
> > Your response lends comfort, as it helps me realize that my son may
>one day
> > have an interest in math, as he now does with reading (of the sort
> > that suits him).
>
>That's the lovely thing about unschooling - he only has to read what
>suits him. My daughter spent at least a year reading nothing but Calvin,
>the Far Side, Asterix, and the Archies...
> >
> > Any thoughts on this one?: He stopped me short just yesterday when he
>
> > misspoke. I can't even remember what the word was, but let's just say
>he
> > used "seen" when the proper word usage would have been "saw." I
>gently
> > reminded him in what context the word would appropriately be used
> > and he retorted "I talk the way I talk and that is that." Talk about
>a
> > dressing down!
>
>I would feel pretty ashamed if someone corrected my grammar, no matter
>how gently. I don't do it to other people. The whol idea of prescriptive
>grammar is controversial, anyway, ask a linguist. People eventually end
>up talking the way peope, around them and/or people in books they read
>talk, barring a languagfe disorder of some sort.
>
>Sometimes it is very hard not to correct, but I really don't unless I'm
>sure it's welcome. The one exception seems to be word pronounciation - a
>lot of big readers (including me) end up promouncing words that they've
>read but never heard incorrectly. I never minded a gentle correction on
>that, and Cacie doesn't seem to either... but her dad did, so he still
>pronounces pseudonym as swade -o - nim and I don't comment.
> >
>Dar
>________________________________________________________________
>GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
>Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
>Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
>http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.


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Freedom Panther

Hi, lovemary,

Well, I assume he learned the correct grammar from my husband and me, but I
can only imagine the incorrect grammar he's using he is picking up from
friends or television. He DOES spend more time at home with us, so that may
be our salvation, eh? Thanks for your input!

Freedompanther


>From: lite2yu@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legos,cookies,videogames
>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:40:13 EST
>
>In a message dated 2/26/02 8:06:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
>freedompanther@... writes:
>
><< but if I don't offer the proper grammar usage, at
> least from time to time, where will he get it?
> >>
>He will get it from hearing you and others use the "correct" grammar. How
>did
>he learn to use the correct grammar he uses now. . . surely not with you
>correcting him everytime, I wouldn't think.
>
>living in abundance
>lovemary


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com

[email protected]

<<), but if I don't offer the proper grammar usage, at
least from time to time, where will he get it?>>

He'll get it by hearing it. His mistakes don't need to get corrected by
others, if he hears the good stuff, he'll use the good stuff.
I sometimes ask, "Would you like me to give you tips about X when I think of
it?" Sometimes I say this about a recipe/cooking, sometimes about words in a
book, sometimes about grammer. Emily may or may not want to hear the
advice. I do tend to slip with word usage though! I hate when people say
stuff like "I don't got no..."


Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein


-----Original Message-----
From: Freedom Panther <freedompanther@...>
To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legos,cookies,videogames


>Psam,
>
>Thanks for the feedback. My son is 9 1/2 and couldn't really give a rip
>right now when it comes to math. I am doing my best to leave it alone, but
>I admit to sometimes feeling pressure (which I put on myself, of course).
>But your explanation caused me to remember that, just the other day, Dylan
>"discovered" Calvin & Hobbes, and began reading with a fervor...something
>he'd been totally unwilling to do up 'til then...and he was so taken with
>the book that, having read 24 pages the first night, he looked ahead to see
>how many pages the book contained and estimated he had only 4 more days of
>material left.
>
>Your response lends comfort, as it helps me realize that my son may one day
>have an interest in math, as he now does with reading (of the sort that
>suits him).
>
>Any thoughts on this one?: He stopped me short just yesterday when he
>misspoke. I can't even remember what the word was, but let's just say he
>used "seen" when the proper word usage would have been "saw." I gently
>reminded him in what context the word would appropriately be used and he
>retorted "I talk the way I talk and that is that." Talk about a dressing
>down!
>
>He's such a teriffic kid, and I want the best for him, and I want to stay
>out of his way. But does anyone have any suggestions on what to do about a
>situation like this? I don't want to trample all over him and "correct"
>him all of the time (and there are lots of things I choose to let go and
>don't point out to him), but if I don't offer the proper grammar usage, at
>least from time to time, where will he get it?
>
>Open to input!
>
>Freedompanther
>
>
>
>>From: "psam ordener" <psamo@...>
>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>To: <[email protected]>
>>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legos,cookies,videogames
>>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:56:07 -0600
>>
>>
>>----- > Please fill me in. How old is your child who is figuring out
>>multiplication
>> > and division on his own with Legos, cookies, and video games? How is
>>he
>> > "doing this on this own?" I guess the real question is, what
>>interaction do
>> > you have with him to ensure that he is "learning" these things?
>>
>>He's 8 years old. It started when he wanted cookies for himself and his
>>brother - two for each. "How many is that?" I'd ask, and he'd count up
on
>>his fingers. Then I showed him that 2X2 is the same thing as 2+2. Then I
>>had to make sure he understood that 3 X 3 wasn't 3+3, LOL!
>>
>>He's also saving money to buy something. He gets $4 per week allowance.
>>He's been figuring out how many weeks it will take to get $38 at $4 per
>>week
>>. . . slowly but surely, he's making the connections.
>>
>>He gets his Legos and puts them in rows - 4 in one row, and 4 in the next
>>row, and 4 in the next, and says, "See, Mommy? 4 X 3 is 12!"
>>
>>I can tell he's doing it, because we talk about it. I don't teach - but I
>>interject ideas into our conversations, like pointing out that there's an
>>easier way to figure up how much allowance he'll have in 7 weeks than
>>adding
>>4+4+4+4+4+4+4. When he wants to know more, I show him. When he loses
>>interest, I stop.
>>
>>He's fascinated by math right now. He plays with his calculator a lot.
>>He
>>has figured out how much older he is than each of the cats, how much older
>>is brother is than each of the cats, etc.
>>
>>It's easy to tell what's going on, and to encourage it with real-life
>>examples.
>>
>>psam
>>psamo@...
>>
>>Motherhood - not just a job, it's an Adventure!
>>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
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Freedom Panther

Good advice. Thanks!

Freedompanther

>From: <ElissaJC@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: <[email protected]>
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legos,cookies,videogames
>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 22:58:43 -0500
>
><<), but if I don't offer the proper grammar usage, at
>least from time to time, where will he get it?>>
>
>He'll get it by hearing it. His mistakes don't need to get corrected by
>others, if he hears the good stuff, he'll use the good stuff.
>I sometimes ask, "Would you like me to give you tips about X when I think
>of
>it?" Sometimes I say this about a recipe/cooking, sometimes about words in
>a
>book, sometimes about grammer. Emily may or may not want to hear the
>advice. I do tend to slip with word usage though! I hate when people say
>stuff like "I don't got no..."
>
>
>Elissa Cleaveland
>"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
>have
>not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Freedom Panther <freedompanther@...>
>To: [email protected] <[email protected]>
>Date: Tuesday, February 26, 2002 8:04 PM
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legos,cookies,videogames
>
>
> >Psam,
> >
> >Thanks for the feedback. My son is 9 1/2 and couldn't really give a rip
> >right now when it comes to math. I am doing my best to leave it alone,
>but
> >I admit to sometimes feeling pressure (which I put on myself, of course).
> >But your explanation caused me to remember that, just the other day,
>Dylan
> >"discovered" Calvin & Hobbes, and began reading with a
>fervor...something
> >he'd been totally unwilling to do up 'til then...and he was so taken with
> >the book that, having read 24 pages the first night, he looked ahead to
>see
> >how many pages the book contained and estimated he had only 4 more days
>of
> >material left.
> >
> >Your response lends comfort, as it helps me realize that my son may one
>day
> >have an interest in math, as he now does with reading (of the sort that
> >suits him).
> >
> >Any thoughts on this one?: He stopped me short just yesterday when he
> >misspoke. I can't even remember what the word was, but let's just say he
> >used "seen" when the proper word usage would have been "saw." I gently
> >reminded him in what context the word would appropriately be used and he
> >retorted "I talk the way I talk and that is that." Talk about a dressing
> >down!
> >
> >He's such a teriffic kid, and I want the best for him, and I want to stay
> >out of his way. But does anyone have any suggestions on what to do about
>a
> >situation like this? I don't want to trample all over him and "correct"
> >him all of the time (and there are lots of things I choose to let go and
> >don't point out to him), but if I don't offer the proper grammar usage,
>at
> >least from time to time, where will he get it?
> >
> >Open to input!
> >
> >Freedompanther
> >
> >
> >
> >>From: "psam ordener" <psamo@...>
> >>Reply-To: [email protected]
> >>To: <[email protected]>
> >>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Legos,cookies,videogames
> >>Date: Tue, 26 Feb 2002 11:56:07 -0600
> >>
> >>
> >>----- > Please fill me in. How old is your child who is figuring out
> >>multiplication
> >> > and division on his own with Legos, cookies, and video games? How
>is
> >>he
> >> > "doing this on this own?" I guess the real question is, what
> >>interaction do
> >> > you have with him to ensure that he is "learning" these things?
> >>
> >>He's 8 years old. It started when he wanted cookies for himself and his
> >>brother - two for each. "How many is that?" I'd ask, and he'd count up
>on
> >>his fingers. Then I showed him that 2X2 is the same thing as 2+2. Then
>I
> >>had to make sure he understood that 3 X 3 wasn't 3+3, LOL!
> >>
> >>He's also saving money to buy something. He gets $4 per week allowance.
> >>He's been figuring out how many weeks it will take to get $38 at $4 per
> >>week
> >>. . . slowly but surely, he's making the connections.
> >>
> >>He gets his Legos and puts them in rows - 4 in one row, and 4 in the
>next
> >>row, and 4 in the next, and says, "See, Mommy? 4 X 3 is 12!"
> >>
> >>I can tell he's doing it, because we talk about it. I don't teach - but
>I
> >>interject ideas into our conversations, like pointing out that there's
>an
> >>easier way to figure up how much allowance he'll have in 7 weeks than
> >>adding
> >>4+4+4+4+4+4+4. When he wants to know more, I show him. When he loses
> >>interest, I stop.
> >>
> >>He's fascinated by math right now. He plays with his calculator a lot.
> >>He
> >>has figured out how much older he is than each of the cats, how much
>older
> >>is brother is than each of the cats, etc.
> >>
> >>It's easy to tell what's going on, and to encourage it with real-life
> >>examples.
> >>
> >>psam
> >>psamo@...
> >>
> >>Motherhood - not just a job, it's an Adventure!
> >>
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
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> >
> >
> >Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> >Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> >To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> >Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> >http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
>


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[email protected]

In a message dated 2/27/02 12:31:58 AM Eastern Standard Time,
BSOLLARS@... writes:

<< I learned from my stepdad, and I
am extremely improper in my word usage when I'm relaxed. But at work, I
am very professional. >>
Interesting Bonnie. . . I am Cajun and the accent is pretty non existent for
the most part unless my daughter and I start getting into it or we go back to
Louisiana and are around the accent more. I was talking with someone on the
phone the other day and he asked me to say something with a Cajun dialect and
I turned it right on for him (probably turned him on too but that's another
story!!), and just as quickly turned it off. But I have several sayings that
are just innate with me. . . I don't even realize I am saying them and they
at times drive my husband crazy, who can be a bit of an intellectual snob at
times. He has tried correcting Lelia and even me sometimes, but we are trying
to wean him of that, because it truly serves no purpose other than to make us
feel stupid and inferior, which is probably our own issue. I think my point
is that to insist on one way of "correct" grammar or speaking is narrow
minded at best. It means we aren't taking into consideration the multitude of
variations of speaking.

living in abundance
mary

psam ordener

> He's such a teriffic kid, and I want the best for him, and I want to stay
> out of his way. But does anyone have any suggestions on what to do about
a
> situation like this? I don't want to trample all over him and "correct"
> him all of the time (and there are lots of things I choose to let go and
> don't point out to him), but if I don't offer the proper grammar usage, at
> least from time to time, where will he get it?

From books! From listening to you and those around you! From being teased
by peers for using the wrong word. There are lots of ways for it to
happen - and if he makes the choice to use the correct word himself, it will
stay with him, whereas your attempt to force the change will only harden his
resolve.

psam "mother of a teenager, who has learned this lesson the hard way"
psamo@...

Motherhood - not just a job, it's an Adventure!

Bonni Sollars

Dona, thanks for that. I read it to my children, and will be reading it
to my husband, who still has a hard time understanding exactly why my
"second-grader" doesn't have schoolwork assignments.
Bonni

[email protected]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 21:24:30 -0500 Bonni Sollars <BSOLLARS@...>
writes:
> And I could not believe how
> snobby those white people were when they would criticize the slang
talk
> of the black people, which I thought was very cool and
> interesting(ebonics?). I once sang in a choir with Jester Hairston
and
> he explained how the African slaves could not pronounce certain sounds
in
> English, then passed that style of speech to their children and so
forth.

I'm not sure I like this explanation. I suppose there were English sounds
that weren't used in their native languages, and it is more difficult to
pick up certain sounds after that critical window (although possible),
but the vast majority - I think something like 98% - of slaves in America
were born right here in this country. And, of course, at birth any human
being can pronounce the same sounds any other human being can
pronounce.... Cacie babbled using speech sounds used in !Kung but not in
English, although she hasn't now used them in years.

African American Vernacular English (AKA "ebonics, or Black Standard
English) is not "slang". The original controversy in Oakland was about
whether or not it was a separate language, with the school district
arguing that it was. The other POV is that it's a dialect. AAVE is
definitely a whole communication system, with its own morphological,
phonological, and syntactic rules.

There are two leading theories on how AAVE evolved. One is the dialect
theory, which is that African slaves had difficulty learning English and
made a number of errors, which were then passed on to subsequent
generations. I don't like this theory, since the implication for me is
that the African people were stupider than the European people who were
able to learn English just fine. The other theory is that the African
slaves, coming from many different areas, were trying to develop a way to
communicate with each other, and in doing so created a pidgin, consisting
of Engliagh words, some African vocabulary familiar to many groups, and
many of the African patterns of syntax and phonology. This eventually
developed into a creole, that is, a separate language.

Also, I just want to throw in that AAVE if in no way an "inferior"
English - it's a different dialect, or language, depending on your POV,
but no langauge or dialect is better or worse than any other. In many
countries (Sweden comes immediately to mind) many children learn one
language at home and another at school, and do fine... these languages
(Swedish and Norwegian) are generally understood by speakers of the
other, like standard english and AAVE, but are separate, distinct
langauges.

I obviously find this fascinating, and have read a lot of books on the
subject, which I would recommend if I could remember the titles...

Dar
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donabak

I never would have believed this before I started unschooling, but my
7 year old daughter taught herself about multiplication as well,
because of her allowance. She was getting $2.50/week (Cdn - poor
kid!). She asked my husband and I if she could have her allowance
increased to $10/week and then showed us at that amount that it would
take 10 weeks for her to have $100. Then it just clicked for her. She
looked at what she had written and she said, "Hey, 10x10 is 100."
There's no way that could have been taught to her if she wasn't ready
for it.

Just the other day, she did something else that surprised me. She
counted some play money that she had that totalled $51,865.00. She
had hundred dollar bills, twenties, fives and one 50 thousand dollar
bill. She counted all the small bills first and kept a running total
in her mind. When she reached 1,865.00 she had to go and get the
calculator because she couldn't picture 50,000 added on to the first
amount. She keyed in 5,000 at first and asked me if it was right.
When I asked her what she read, she said five thousand and realized
that she needed to add another zero. She added the 50,000 to the
1865.00 and got the right answer! Then she tossed the money into her
room and ran off to watch tv. Apparently, the "lesson" was over.

Because both of my kids are interested in money, I opened bank
accounts for them and they each have debit cards. I am amused by the
number of people who are surprised that a 7 and 12 year old have
their own cards and are allowed to operate the debit machine on their
own. Isn't this what education is supposed to teach - how to
participate in society? In my mind, commerce is one of the main
reasons that math is taught in school. Learning it this way, makes
the math relevant to their life.

Dona Baker

<I can tell he's doing it, because we talk about it. I don't teach -
but I interject ideas into our conversations, like pointing out that
there's an easier way to figure up how much allowance he'll have in 7
weeks than adding 4+4+4+4+4+4+4. When he wants to know more, I show
him. When he loses interest, I stop.>

rumpleteasermom

I don't know how I feel about the slave issue but I know that
Lithuanians don't have a 'th' dipthong and it is he!! trying to help
someone learn it when they are 18! If we say 'Other', he writes
'Over'because that is what he hears. He can't say it well at all even
when he is trying specifically to say that sound.

Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:

> I'm not sure I like this explanation. I suppose there were English
sounds
> that weren't used in their native languages, and it is more
difficult to
> pick up certain sounds after that critical window (although
possible),
> but the vast majority - I think something like 98% - of slaves in
America
> were born right here in this country. And, of course, at birth any
human
> being can pronounce the same sounds any other human being can
> pronounce.... Cacie babbled using speech sounds used in !Kung but
not in
> English, although she hasn't now used them in years.

Freedom Panther

Heading out-of-town and pressed for time.

Just wanted to send a "generic" but heartfelt thank you to all who gave me
information regarding how your kids are learning math at home and how you
handle the grammar issue. I haven't ever scolded my son for improper
grammar...but I understand the point some of you are making. Point well
taken. And it's nice to hear how "math" takes place in everyday...these
"stories" help me alot. Thanks, again!

Freedompanther



>From: "donabak" <donabak@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Legos,cookies,videogames
>Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 18:11:51 -0000
>
>
>I never would have believed this before I started unschooling, but my
>7 year old daughter taught herself about multiplication as well,
>because of her allowance. She was getting $2.50/week (Cdn - poor
>kid!). She asked my husband and I if she could have her allowance
>increased to $10/week and then showed us at that amount that it would
>take 10 weeks for her to have $100. Then it just clicked for her. She
>looked at what she had written and she said, "Hey, 10x10 is 100."
>There's no way that could have been taught to her if she wasn't ready
>for it.
>
>Just the other day, she did something else that surprised me. She
>counted some play money that she had that totalled $51,865.00. She
>had hundred dollar bills, twenties, fives and one 50 thousand dollar
>bill. She counted all the small bills first and kept a running total
>in her mind. When she reached 1,865.00 she had to go and get the
>calculator because she couldn't picture 50,000 added on to the first
>amount. She keyed in 5,000 at first and asked me if it was right.
>When I asked her what she read, she said five thousand and realized
>that she needed to add another zero. She added the 50,000 to the
>1865.00 and got the right answer! Then she tossed the money into her
>room and ran off to watch tv. Apparently, the "lesson" was over.
>
>Because both of my kids are interested in money, I opened bank
>accounts for them and they each have debit cards. I am amused by the
>number of people who are surprised that a 7 and 12 year old have
>their own cards and are allowed to operate the debit machine on their
>own. Isn't this what education is supposed to teach - how to
>participate in society? In my mind, commerce is one of the main
>reasons that math is taught in school. Learning it this way, makes
>the math relevant to their life.
>
>Dona Baker
>
><I can tell he's doing it, because we talk about it. I don't teach -
>but I interject ideas into our conversations, like pointing out that
>there's an easier way to figure up how much allowance he'll have in 7
>weeks than adding 4+4+4+4+4+4+4. When he wants to know more, I show
>him. When he loses interest, I stop.>
>
>


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