Julie Stauffer

<<are you feeling better, Julie?>>

Hi Sharon,

I was just thinking of you and Roy yesterday and how much fun we had meeting
you guys. I am feeling better, changed my diet and now have so much energy,
I'm on the 'net at midnight. <sigh>

<<I think karate is its own reward. You can ONLY get better at it>>

I feel that way about most things. I have been studying Marxism for about 3
years off and on and now am learning economic theory to flesh out my
understanding. My dh thinks I'm nuts but I spend "bathroom time" reading
this stuff. I am getting better at it, still don't know what I'm supposed
to do with it, but I am better at it :)

Julie

Julie Stauffer

<<thoughts please>>

I agree with you Kolleen. Whether it is taking out the trash or turning off
the tv it is control if the parent decides. But I think there can be some
type of middle ground.

Example: We have 5 kids (11, 8, 5, 3, 2). With the kids working on their
projects, making their snacks, playing, things can get very messy very
quickly here. I can spend all my time cleaning up but I would be a grump.
We work more on the basis of commitment to the group or family. If what you
are doing only effects you, fine no problem. If it effects others, then
agreements need to be made. Adriane has a room to herself so she cleans up
as she sees fit. Zach and Danny share and Zach is the ultimate slob, a very
cool slob but slob none the less. It gets to where Danny can't even find
his toys under Zach's dirty underwear. I suggested that when we can no
longer see the floor, Zach pick up his stuff and he agreed. Zach and Marsie
love "midnight snacks" but were leaving crumbs and dirty dishes all over the
table. I asked them to clean up after themselves and they said fine and do
a really good job. Use of the home and cleaning of the home often effect
more than just the individual, watching television usually doesn't.

Respect is a 2 way street and unless living alone, it is pretty much
required for a happy home.

Julie

Julie Stauffer

<<I'm unschooling as best I can>>

The problem isn't with what people choose to do in their homes. They truly
should do what they feel is best for their families. Isn't that what good
parents do?

The problem is when people say "I unschool except for this" or "I make the
kids turn off the tv and we unschool until 3:00" and use their
exceptions-to-unschool as advice for others who come to this forum to learn
about unschooling.

I was one of the people who got a whack upside the head (I thank God <and
Sandra> daily for it). It wasn't ugly and it wasn't abusive. It was
turning a very bright light on in my mind so I could see into all the little
nooks and crannies and I didn't really like what I saw there. It was an "Oh
my God" moment that changed my life. The "whack" was actually self-imposed,
a palm striking the middle of my forehead.

Because when I finally got unschooling in all its glory it was truly a
defining moment in life, I feel very strongly that others have the chance to
experience that as well.

I worked as a therapist for years. People came to me wanting help learning
to be happy. I was often very kind to them, but I also shot straight from
the hip with them. I questioned their motives, their decisions, their word
choices. Sometimes they got very angry with me, sometimes they fell in love
with me, sometimes they got better and sometimes they didn't. But I
couldn't have helped anyone if I was simply the hand-holder and cheerleader
on all occasions.

Julie

Julie Stauffer

<<suggestions>>

What I finally noticed is that my kids are always asking to do things and I
found myself always telling them "no". They want to help paint or the
little kids want to help do the laundry or wash dishes. Because it was
easier and faster FOR ME, I would send them on their way. Now I work harder
to include them as much as they want to be included and they are much more
agreeable to helping out in ways that maybe aren't as much fun for them.

My dh also is a neat nut. I'm just this side of slob and by the end of the
day the house is a wreck. Because it pleases their father who they love
dearly, the kids are willing to help as WE ALL TOGETHER make a run through
the house and pick up. Dad is less stressed by feeling claustrophobic and
more ready for play. Works for us.

Julie

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@g...> wrote:

> The problem is when people say "I unschool except for this" or "I
make the
> kids turn off the tv and we unschool until 3:00" and use their
> exceptions-to-unschool as advice for others who come to this forum
to learn
> about unschooling.

I haven't seen anyone say that. I have already apologied numerous
times for the confusion when I first joined the list about whether or
not I unschool Wyndham. I have been very careful since to point out
that he has limits, the girls don't and that I think MOST kids don't
need them.
Others have come here and are in the process of learning to let go of
this stuff and discussing limits from that standpoint. And
discussing ways to help their children take responsibility for their
own viewing habits. All in all I think that has been a very
productive discussion.
Unfortunately, there seem to be a few here so mired in preconceived
notions from things said 5 months ago, that they can't take the
current conversation at face value.

Bridget

joanna514

> Others have come here and are in the process of learning to let go
of
> this stuff and discussing limits from that standpoint. And
> discussing ways to help their children take responsibility for
their
> own viewing habits. All in all I think that has been a very
> productive discussion.
> Unfortunately, there seem to be a few here so mired in preconceived
> notions from things said 5 months ago, that they can't take the
> current conversation at face value.
>
> Bridget

I wasn't part of the problem you had in the past. I read some of the
discussions. I mostly caught the tail end of things, but didnt get
involved.
The problem I have with some of the things I'm hearing you say now,
is that you seem to be giving the impression that children with any
type of "disorder", might not be able to unschool. You've given up
on it, for one of your children, because it wasn't "working" for him.
I don't have a problem with your feelings about that. I do have a
problem, that because of YOUR judgement about the situation, you've
come to a conclusion, that many may not have. You don't want to say
that unschooling didn't work for ME, because I couldn't accept the
choices this child was making, and couldn't see beyond having to now
control the situation myself. You want to say it didn't work for
HIM. That, to me, isn't seeing unschooling in a clear light.
I'm not attacking you here. I'm discussing unschooling as I see it,
using the situation that you have brought to this list.
Joanna

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@m...> wrote:

> I wasn't part of the problem you had in the past. I read some of
the
> discussions. I mostly caught the tail end of things, but didnt get
> involved.
> The problem I have with some of the things I'm hearing you say now,
> is that you seem to be giving the impression that children with
any
> type of "disorder", might not be able to unschool. You've given up
> on it, for one of your children, because it wasn't "working" for
him.

But that is not what I said. I said that the ultimate goal with
Wyndham is to help him get to the point where unschooling WILL work
for him. But because of his problems that takes time and effort and
a different approach.
Unschooling *AS DEFINED HERE PREVIOUSLY* will not work for him. That
is different than saying I don't think he can ever take control for
himself and unschool.
But see the problem is that *AS DEFINE HERE PREVIOUSLY* part and the
assumption by some that besause I have said that this is what I have
to do now with him I believe he will never change or grow or become
independent enough to make his own decisions. I should hope that if
others with children like him come to this list, they can take heart
in knowing that they are not alone and that there are ways to make
progress toward unschooling with a child like him.

Bridget

joanna514

I should hope that if
> others with children like him come to this list, they can take
heart
> in knowing that they are not alone and that there are ways to make
> progress toward unschooling with a child like him.
>
> Bridget

What do you mean progress toward unschooling?
That sounds like you have certain ideas about how unschooling should
look(like the way your daughters have lived. Different from each
other, but still acceptable to you.)
To me, it seems that you have judge your child, and decided some of
his choices are wrong, and you will steer him in the "right"
direction. YOUR direction. That's fine. You're his mom. It
doesn't sound like you are heading towards unschooling though.
You're trying to lead him to more independence. That's what lots of
parents do. They don't call that unschooling, though. They call
that teaching.
Joanna

rumpleteasermom

I'm not going to rehash ALL of the mystery that is my son right now.
If you are really interested you can go read in the archives what
I've said before. Yes, I have to set limits for him now, while he is
learning about himself. Once he has figured out where his problems
lie, he can take control for himself. In the meantime, if you don't
want to consider me heading toward unschooling with him because I
think he should not pick his skin open on a regular basis or that he
should not be becoming obese or that he should try to keep his gums
attached to his teeth and I take action to avoid those outcomes
that's fine. But stop asking me to explain because it just prolongs
the conversation.

Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "joanna514" <Wilkinson6@m...> wrote:

> What do you mean progress toward unschooling?
> That sounds like you have certain ideas about how unschooling
should
> look(like the way your daughters have lived. Different from each
> other, but still acceptable to you.)
> To me, it seems that you have judge your child, and decided some of
> his choices are wrong, and you will steer him in the "right"
> direction. YOUR direction. That's fine. You're his mom. It
> doesn't sound like you are heading towards unschooling though.
> You're trying to lead him to more independence. That's what lots
of
> parents do. They don't call that unschooling, though. They call
> that teaching.
> Joanna

pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes

My biggest frustration with some unschooling discussions stems from
the fact that I read of very few instances where a child struggles
with issues of choice. The foregone conclusion seems to be that all
children will respond to freedom of choice in the same way. In our
family, our son doesn't exhibit any signs of OCD, but has always had
difficulty with regulating his own behavior. He doesn't seem to
reach a saturation point in anything. For example, I stopped telling
him how much candy he could eat a while back, and he now has a very
painful cavity. He's a 12yo boy and old enough to know that more
candy=more pain, yet he continues to eat the candy all the while
complaining about the pain. I love him dearly, but the concept of
cause and effect doesn't seem to be real to him yet.

Does anyone else here have a child like this?

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes"
<djac99_1999@y...> wrote:

> Does anyone else here have a child like this?

I don't think any two children can be considered exactly alike, but
he sounds like Wyndham in the cause and effect thing! It's
frustrating, isn't it?

Bridget

pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes

Frustrating is one way to put it. As I said in my previous post,
many unschooling parents seem to have children who don't struggle
with choice. These children always seem to peacefully and wisely
make decisions that are in their best interests. Limits on
television watching and video games come to mind, for instance.

Lynda

Youngest kidlet has no conception of any limits. She stays up until she
gets physically sick she is soooo tired. We've talked about it and seem to
reach a conclusion that she understands but it is out the window the minute
the talking is done. Not having bedtimes set for her is physically harming.
And yes, we have tried it for more than just one night. After a week she
looked like a 30 yo who had been on a binge (bags under her eyes, real red
eyes, saggy face, dragging all day).

When she ended up in bed with flu like symptoms, we called a halt to her
being the one deciding bedtimes. I've come to recognize the signs of when
she is a step or two away from the "sick" stage and tell her to head for
bed. With my comments about bedtime, she then seems to recognize it herself
and usually says, "Yep, you're right" and gives everyone hugs and kisses and
heads off to bed. Once in a while she makes the choices and asks to stay up
later for whatever reason and we discuss it. If it is simply because she
wants to see something on television, then we tape it and she watches it in
the morning. If it is a family thing, she usually stays up a little longer.

But, it is the same with everything for her.

Lynda

----- Original Message -----
From: "pumpkin_kisses_fall_wishes" <djac99_1999@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2002 10:03 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Digest Number 1780


> My biggest frustration with some unschooling discussions stems from
> the fact that I read of very few instances where a child struggles
> with issues of choice. The foregone conclusion seems to be that all
> children will respond to freedom of choice in the same way. In our
> family, our son doesn't exhibit any signs of OCD, but has always had
> difficulty with regulating his own behavior. He doesn't seem to
> reach a saturation point in anything. For example, I stopped telling
> him how much candy he could eat a while back, and he now has a very
> painful cavity. He's a 12yo boy and old enough to know that more
> candy=more pain, yet he continues to eat the candy all the while
> complaining about the pain. I love him dearly, but the concept of
> cause and effect doesn't seem to be real to him yet.
>
> Does anyone else here have a child like this?
>
>
>
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>

Tia Leschke

>Frustrating is one way to put it. As I said in my previous post,
>many unschooling parents seem to have children who don't struggle
>with choice. These children always seem to peacefully and wisely
>make decisions that are in their best interests. Limits on
>television watching and video games come to mind, for instance.

I guess we don't fit in with most unschooling parents. <g> Our son makes
all kinds of decisions that seem to not be in his self interest. But he
seems to be doing better all the time. And when I stopped stressing out
about the amount of TV he was watching, and started noticing just how much
he was *learning* from TV, we got a lot more peaceful around here. And he
certainly isn't watching more TV, possibly less.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island