Rewards
Julie Stauffer
We relocated last year about the time I earned my black belt. I looked and
looked for a karate school that I liked but didn't find one. So I decided
to teach at my own little school. I advertised through the local
"school-at-home" support group (only group in the area) and got 8 students
who meet in my garage. I figured this would last a few months. I would get
some experience teaching to see if this what I wanted to do.
I come from a very highly structured and reward based school. Points scored
in tournaments are kept on a big board through out the year. Can't advance
unless report card is good. Punishment in the form of hundreds of pushups
for missing assignments. Must turn in sheets recording one's practice.
Candy given to kids for good classes, etc., etc..
In my school I didn't want to do these things. We keep no records of
anything, not when they come to class, not if they can do pushups correctly,
not points scored, not if they practiced. It is simply not mentioned other
than the "Hey now you are getting it. That is much better" kind of thing.
Like I said, I expected kids to perhaps lose interest in a few months and
class to fold. It has now been 7 months, most everyone is here for all of
their classes. All 8 of my students travel the 3 hours to Houston to test
for each belt level and so far no one has missed at all. I told them that
on the 3 nights a week we don't have class, I was going to be working out
anyway and they were welcome to come if they chose. They chose.
Just my experience with "no rewards". I didn't want to spend my time
baby-sitting people. I wanted to do karate. I believe that if people want
to do something, learn something, they will. With my class and with my
kids, I provide the opportunities and help when asked, other than that I
stay out of the way.
Julie
looked for a karate school that I liked but didn't find one. So I decided
to teach at my own little school. I advertised through the local
"school-at-home" support group (only group in the area) and got 8 students
who meet in my garage. I figured this would last a few months. I would get
some experience teaching to see if this what I wanted to do.
I come from a very highly structured and reward based school. Points scored
in tournaments are kept on a big board through out the year. Can't advance
unless report card is good. Punishment in the form of hundreds of pushups
for missing assignments. Must turn in sheets recording one's practice.
Candy given to kids for good classes, etc., etc..
In my school I didn't want to do these things. We keep no records of
anything, not when they come to class, not if they can do pushups correctly,
not points scored, not if they practiced. It is simply not mentioned other
than the "Hey now you are getting it. That is much better" kind of thing.
Like I said, I expected kids to perhaps lose interest in a few months and
class to fold. It has now been 7 months, most everyone is here for all of
their classes. All 8 of my students travel the 3 hours to Houston to test
for each belt level and so far no one has missed at all. I told them that
on the 3 nights a week we don't have class, I was going to be working out
anyway and they were welcome to come if they chose. They chose.
Just my experience with "no rewards". I didn't want to spend my time
baby-sitting people. I wanted to do karate. I believe that if people want
to do something, learn something, they will. With my class and with my
kids, I provide the opportunities and help when asked, other than that I
stay out of the way.
Julie
Pat Cald...
Julie, thanks for sharing your great story.
Pat
Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Julie Stauffer
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2002 2:18 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Rewards
We relocated last year about the time I earned my black belt. I looked and
looked for a karate school that I liked but didn't find one. So I decided
to teach at my own little school. I advertised through the local
"school-at-home" support group (only group in the area) and got 8 students
who meet in my garage. I figured this would last a few months. I would get
some experience teaching to see if this what I wanted to do.
I come from a very highly structured and reward based school. Points scored
in tournaments are kept on a big board through out the year. Can't advance
unless report card is good. Punishment in the form of hundreds of pushups
for missing assignments. Must turn in sheets recording one's practice.
Candy given to kids for good classes, etc., etc..
In my school I didn't want to do these things. We keep no records of
anything, not when they come to class, not if they can do pushups correctly,
not points scored, not if they practiced. It is simply not mentioned other
than the "Hey now you are getting it. That is much better" kind of thing.
Like I said, I expected kids to perhaps lose interest in a few months and
class to fold. It has now been 7 months, most everyone is here for all of
their classes. All 8 of my students travel the 3 hours to Houston to test
for each belt level and so far no one has missed at all. I told them that
on the 3 nights a week we don't have class, I was going to be working out
anyway and they were welcome to come if they chose. They chose.
Just my experience with "no rewards". I didn't want to spend my time
baby-sitting people. I wanted to do karate. I believe that if people want
to do something, learn something, they will. With my class and with my
kids, I provide the opportunities and help when asked, other than that I
stay out of the way.
Julie
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sharon Rudd
Are you feeling better, Julie? Still working out and
all the rest....with enough energy to keep it up? You
are amazing!
It seems to me, that with karate', though, it is its
own reward. If you do it, you can ONLY get better at
it! Sort of like everything else :)
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
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all the rest....with enough energy to keep it up? You
are amazing!
It seems to me, that with karate', though, it is its
own reward. If you do it, you can ONLY get better at
it! Sort of like everything else :)
Sharon of the Swamp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Great stuff seeking new owners in Yahoo! Auctions!
http://auctions.yahoo.com
Pam Hartley
----------
small human beings.
could possibly get away with, no more, and never to voluntarily clean
ANYTHING.
follow those good examples. People who are forced to submit to benign
dictatorship, by the withholding of Nintendo or the promise of
SpongeBobSquarePants, are acquiring life skills I'd rather my children not
develop.
Pam
>From: [email protected]I think rewards are a fine idea in training cats, and a bad idea in rearing
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4179
>Date: Sun, Nov 9, 2003, 3:27 PM
>
> What do people here think about rewards systems for chores?
small human beings.
>I grew up under this system. It taught me to do the least amount of work I
> We have a sort of two-tiered system. First is the "work before play"
> system, in which a certain minimum amount of work is required before the
> boys are allowed to play computer or video games. The second thing is that
> we pay them for working -- we have a weekly "chores chart" that we tote up
> at the end of each week -- the more work performed the more money they get.
could possibly get away with, no more, and never to voluntarily clean
ANYTHING.
>People who live with free choice and good examples tend to freely choose to
> We do this not only to "coerce" them into working but to show them that
> there is a relationship between doing work and enjoying the benefits of
> having worked.
follow those good examples. People who are forced to submit to benign
dictatorship, by the withholding of Nintendo or the promise of
SpongeBobSquarePants, are acquiring life skills I'd rather my children not
develop.
Pam
Robyn Coburn
* <<We have a sort of two-tiered system. First is the "work before
play"
Whatever this system is, be sure that is certainly not Unschooling.
Unschooling does not seek to make a division between work and play - surely
you have heard the phrase "play is the work of childhood".
I would not describe this as two-tiered, but two different and possibly
competing ideas. For example what happens is your kids say "We'll forgo the
extra money this week - how much time can we buy with those dollars on the
computer?" Do you then change the rules by refusing to allow them to do
that?
With system 1, you are training your children to live the way so many adults
have to live - work is "negative" boring, hard, tedious, to be escaped from
asap; play is "positive" fun, enjoyable, real challenges - separate and
definitely not equal. The good stuff is all in the future sometime. People
who have embraced unschooling are helping their children find their
passions, enjoy them today, and relish challenges as part of a full life.
There are so many lengthy threads about the value of "de-limiting" computer
and video game time that you could spend many hours reading and learning -
as long as someone doesn't come along and tell you that it is time you did
some work first! Most of us do not entertain the idea that these things are
a privilege, any more than warm clothes, a place to sleep, and enough food
are privileges.
With system 2 - well the issue is still coercion. If you have some tasks
that you are responsible for, but really don't like, why not offer the kids
the opportunity to earn extra money by doing them? You could just as well be
offering the job to a neighbor's teen, or it would be as if your kids were
offered a job by someone outside of the immediate family. The key here is
the right of refusal. I would never tie refusing these job opportunities to
any kind of punishment - including wandering around with a resentment in
your heart and on your face.
<< We do this not only to "coerce" them into working but to show them that
real thing. Unschooling does not set up artificial situations with arbitrary
limitations, in order to demonstrate some principle or other. Unschooling
allows people to discover their best selves - and lets life take care of the
life-lessons. The first time your toddler struggled to complete a block
tower that stayed up, he learned about the joy of doing work.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
play"
> system, in which a certain minimum amount of work is required before theget.>>
> boys are allowed to play computer or video games. The second thing is that
> we pay them for working -- we have a weekly "chores chart" that we tote up
> at the end of each week -- the more work performed the more money they
Whatever this system is, be sure that is certainly not Unschooling.
Unschooling does not seek to make a division between work and play - surely
you have heard the phrase "play is the work of childhood".
I would not describe this as two-tiered, but two different and possibly
competing ideas. For example what happens is your kids say "We'll forgo the
extra money this week - how much time can we buy with those dollars on the
computer?" Do you then change the rules by refusing to allow them to do
that?
With system 1, you are training your children to live the way so many adults
have to live - work is "negative" boring, hard, tedious, to be escaped from
asap; play is "positive" fun, enjoyable, real challenges - separate and
definitely not equal. The good stuff is all in the future sometime. People
who have embraced unschooling are helping their children find their
passions, enjoy them today, and relish challenges as part of a full life.
There are so many lengthy threads about the value of "de-limiting" computer
and video game time that you could spend many hours reading and learning -
as long as someone doesn't come along and tell you that it is time you did
some work first! Most of us do not entertain the idea that these things are
a privilege, any more than warm clothes, a place to sleep, and enough food
are privileges.
With system 2 - well the issue is still coercion. If you have some tasks
that you are responsible for, but really don't like, why not offer the kids
the opportunity to earn extra money by doing them? You could just as well be
offering the job to a neighbor's teen, or it would be as if your kids were
offered a job by someone outside of the immediate family. The key here is
the right of refusal. I would never tie refusing these job opportunities to
any kind of punishment - including wandering around with a resentment in
your heart and on your face.
<< We do this not only to "coerce" them into working but to show them that
> there is a relationship between doing work and enjoying the benefits ofWhy use quotation marks? This is not euphemistically coercion, this is the
> having worked.>>
real thing. Unschooling does not set up artificial situations with arbitrary
limitations, in order to demonstrate some principle or other. Unschooling
allows people to discover their best selves - and lets life take care of the
life-lessons. The first time your toddler struggled to complete a block
tower that stayed up, he learned about the joy of doing work.
Robyn Coburn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Nora or Devereaux Cannon
I agree with the idea that rewards take away from the joy of a
job well done. On the other hand, in my experience at least,
having a chart of available tasks that are worth money is not a
bad thing.
I remember with fondness - and am told by the child now raised
he had a similar reaction to - the fact that the fridge had
pending infrequent chores that were worth money. I always loved
cleaning the chandeliers in the house I grew up in. I truly
loved doing it. It was worth 3 dollars too - 6 weeks allowance
in 1962. I loved it for itself and would do it whether or not
it was on the list as pending, but the minute it got up there, I
was a rich child. Other tasks have been ones that might never
have occurred otherwise. I had alphabetizing the biographies in
the library for $10 up for several weeks before $10 stood
between our son and some desired item. He was free to earn that
money rather at home rather than try to find a way to earn it or
await birthday money (he could have just asked for the item, but
it was one that meant too much to him not to "own it, including
the cost of it".
The difference between payment for honest work and reward for
doing the "pretty much required" makes the difference to me in
whether you are undermining the person's joy in their labor -
and it is worth looking at form both perspectives.
job well done. On the other hand, in my experience at least,
having a chart of available tasks that are worth money is not a
bad thing.
I remember with fondness - and am told by the child now raised
he had a similar reaction to - the fact that the fridge had
pending infrequent chores that were worth money. I always loved
cleaning the chandeliers in the house I grew up in. I truly
loved doing it. It was worth 3 dollars too - 6 weeks allowance
in 1962. I loved it for itself and would do it whether or not
it was on the list as pending, but the minute it got up there, I
was a rich child. Other tasks have been ones that might never
have occurred otherwise. I had alphabetizing the biographies in
the library for $10 up for several weeks before $10 stood
between our son and some desired item. He was free to earn that
money rather at home rather than try to find a way to earn it or
await birthday money (he could have just asked for the item, but
it was one that meant too much to him not to "own it, including
the cost of it".
The difference between payment for honest work and reward for
doing the "pretty much required" makes the difference to me in
whether you are undermining the person's joy in their labor -
and it is worth looking at form both perspectives.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pam Hartley" <pamhartley@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 5:56 PM
Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Re: Rewards
|
|
| ----------
| >From: [email protected]
| >To: [email protected]
| >Subject: [UnschoolingDiscussion] Digest Number 4179
| >Date: Sun, Nov 9, 2003, 3:27 PM
| >
|
| > What do people here think about rewards systems for chores?
|
| I think rewards are a fine idea in training cats, and a bad
idea in rearing
| small human beings.
|
| >
| > We have a sort of two-tiered system. First is the "work
before play"
| > system, in which a certain minimum amount of work is
required before the
| > boys are allowed to play computer or video games. The second
thing is that
| > we pay them for working -- we have a weekly "chores chart"
that we tote up
| > at the end of each week -- the more work performed the more
money they get.
|
| I grew up under this system. It taught me to do the least
amount of work I
| could possibly get away with, no more, and never to
voluntarily clean
| ANYTHING.
|
| >
| > We do this not only to "coerce" them into working but to
show them that
| > there is a relationship between doing work and enjoying the
benefits of
| > having worked.
|
| People who live with free choice and good examples tend to
freely choose to
| follow those good examples. People who are forced to submit to
benign
| dictatorship, by the withholding of Nintendo or the promise of
| SpongeBobSquarePants, are acquiring life skills I'd rather my
children not
| develop.
|
| Pam
|
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Pam Hartley
--- In [email protected], "Nora or
Devereaux Cannon" <dcannon@n...> wrote:
reasonable to me. We have a home business, and both girls
know they can earn money by helping with shipping and some
other tasks. It's entirely up to them. They also receive a weekly
allowance (as do we all, adults included) just for being alive and
members of the household.
Tying money earning into required chores feels icky to me.
Tying money earning into commonplace household chores (10
cents for wiping the table) is telling the child that simply
spontaneously helping out Mom and Dad in keeping up the
house makes little sense when they could get paid for it instead.
Cleaning a chandelier? Not on the same page as vaccuuming
the living room, in my book. ;)
Pam
Devereaux Cannon" <dcannon@n...> wrote:
> I agree with the idea that rewards take away from the joy of aOut of the ordinary money-making opportunities seem perfectly
> job well done. On the other hand, in my experience at least,
> having a chart of available tasks that are worth money is not a
> bad thing.
reasonable to me. We have a home business, and both girls
know they can earn money by helping with shipping and some
other tasks. It's entirely up to them. They also receive a weekly
allowance (as do we all, adults included) just for being alive and
members of the household.
Tying money earning into required chores feels icky to me.
Tying money earning into commonplace household chores (10
cents for wiping the table) is telling the child that simply
spontaneously helping out Mom and Dad in keeping up the
house makes little sense when they could get paid for it instead.
Cleaning a chandelier? Not on the same page as vaccuuming
the living room, in my book. ;)
Pam