[Unschooling-dotcom] Balance
Pat Cald...
I posted something last night and no one responded yet so I thought I'd see if my ideas held any water. The area of balance and responsibility are areas that most children can be trusted to handle on their own. They have a natural curiosity and thirst for knowledge, so *most* kids that are offered an interesting stimulating environment will want to partake of the offerings and find a natural balance. This may be different for kids with obsessive type personalities therefore a balance may need to be discusses, not enforced, if it appears the child is not thriving. (I'm using thriving deliberately as a possibly controversial term.)
My original post follows.
My original post follows.
----- Original Message -----
From: Pat Cald...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 9:10 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Intro
<snip>
+Actually thinking about it.....maybe I should just do that for myself and
+post the graph. I'll bet seeing the amount of time I spend on email will
+be scary! <g>
+Tia
You bring up something that I have been thinking about lately. I know some people say that unschooling is about freedom and there is no good or bad time spent. So if I am not way off on my understanding of that being an unschooling philosophy then answer me this. Other than some basic helping out around the house, what responsibilities should our unschooled kids have? And I know most will say "what ever they choose" but in the past I could relate their ps time as their job. What do they need to learn to balance in their lives?
I would love to sit here on my computer and read all 200 messages that I got today (I need to unsubscribe to some lists) but I have to balance this desire with the other things that need to get done. I make a deal with myself that I will accomplish x or y before I sit down at the computer and allow myself x amount of time, etc. The freedom I have is to make the deals with myself. No one is telling me how much time or when I can have the computer and some days I might say bag it to my other stuff and veg for a little bit. This is the same freedom I feel my kids should have.
How can they learn to balance their desires and responsibilities in a life so free of responsibilities?
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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rumpleteasermom
I didn't respond because there was a big flame war the last time I
said this. But here goes anyway:
I think there is a difference between unschooling and unparenting. I
think that children should have household responsibilities. How you
arrive at the breakdown of who does what and what the consequences
are is going to be different from family to family. And it is
totally unrelated to what they choose to learn outside the scope of
family life. My kids HAD to learn to cook and do laundry. The don't
have to learn algebra or the history of the US. Those are things
they choose to do.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@y...>
wrote:
responsibility are areas that most children can be trusted to handle
on their own. They have a natural curiosity and thirst for
knowledge, so *most* kids that are offered an interesting stimulating
environment will want to partake of the offerings and find a natural
balance. This may be different for kids with obsessive type
personalities therefore a balance may need to be discusses, not
enforced, if it appears the child is not thriving. (I'm using
thriving deliberately as a possibly controversial term.)
said this. But here goes anyway:
I think there is a difference between unschooling and unparenting. I
think that children should have household responsibilities. How you
arrive at the breakdown of who does what and what the consequences
are is going to be different from family to family. And it is
totally unrelated to what they choose to learn outside the scope of
family life. My kids HAD to learn to cook and do laundry. The don't
have to learn algebra or the history of the US. Those are things
they choose to do.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Pat Cald..." <homeschoolmd@y...>
wrote:
> I posted something last night and no one responded yet so I thoughtI'd see if my ideas held any water. The area of balance and
responsibility are areas that most children can be trusted to handle
on their own. They have a natural curiosity and thirst for
knowledge, so *most* kids that are offered an interesting stimulating
environment will want to partake of the offerings and find a natural
balance. This may be different for kids with obsessive type
personalities therefore a balance may need to be discusses, not
enforced, if it appears the child is not thriving. (I'm using
thriving deliberately as a possibly controversial term.)
>desires and responsibilities in a life so free of responsibilities?
> My original post follows> How can they learn to balance their
>
> Pat
>
joanna514
(I'm using thriving deliberately as a possibly controversial term.)
Joanna
>You're too cool Pat!
Joanna
Tia Leschke
You probably didn't get much response on this one because we went through
it fairly recently.
set out as it was when they went to school. But they're still learning and
growing, and isn't that still their main job?
I think the people on this list handle the idea of chores in a lot of
different ways. I think I'm somewhere near the middle. I do insist on one
kitchen chore daily. I figure Rod earns the money for the meal. I buy the
groceries and cook it. Lars can do *something* to help with either prep or
clean up. We ask him to do other things, but it's more asking than
insisting. I ask him to bring in firewood and split kindling when Rod
isn't around, because I can't do it without a lot of pain. Rod asks for
help when he needs it. I don't worry about his room, and it gets cleaned
up more often than when I hassled him about it.
and the various tricks I use to get my backside moving.
isn't working, he stays up late, sleeps in, and generally takes it
easy. When he's working, he makes his lunch and gets his gear together in
the evening and then goes to bed early. He gets up cheerfully in the
morning, because he's chosen to do this. Even when he doesn't feel like
getting up and going to work, he does anyway because he's made a commitment
to his dad to be there. At 14, his work habits and attitudes are better
than any of his older sibs (who went to school) and better than many of the
other employees.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
it fairly recently.
>You bring up something that I have been thinking about lately. I knowOk, now that they're unschooling, their learning time isn't so precisely
>some people say that unschooling is about freedom and there is no good or
>bad time spent. So if I am not way off on my understanding of that being
>an unschooling philosophy then answer me this. Other than some basic
>helping out around the house, what responsibilities should our unschooled
>kids have? And I know most will say "what ever they choose" but in the
>past I could relate their ps time as their job. What do they need to learn
>to balance in their lives?
set out as it was when they went to school. But they're still learning and
growing, and isn't that still their main job?
I think the people on this list handle the idea of chores in a lot of
different ways. I think I'm somewhere near the middle. I do insist on one
kitchen chore daily. I figure Rod earns the money for the meal. I buy the
groceries and cook it. Lars can do *something* to help with either prep or
clean up. We ask him to do other things, but it's more asking than
insisting. I ask him to bring in firewood and split kindling when Rod
isn't around, because I can't do it without a lot of pain. Rod asks for
help when he needs it. I don't worry about his room, and it gets cleaned
up more often than when I hassled him about it.
>I would love to sit here on my computer and read all 200 messages that IYes. But I sometimes talk with Lars about my procrastination tendencies
>got today (I need to unsubscribe to some lists) but I have to balance this
>desire with the other things that need to get done. I make a deal with
>myself that I will accomplish x or y before I sit down at the computer and
>allow myself x amount of time, etc. The freedom I have is to make the
>deals with myself. No one is telling me how much time or when I can have
>the computer and some days I might say bag it to my other stuff and veg
>for a little bit. This is the same freedom I feel my kids should have.
and the various tricks I use to get my backside moving.
>How can they learn to balance their desires and responsibilities in a lifeI think they gradually take on the responsibilities themselves. When Lars
>so free of responsibilities?
isn't working, he stays up late, sleeps in, and generally takes it
easy. When he's working, he makes his lunch and gets his gear together in
the evening and then goes to bed early. He gets up cheerfully in the
morning, because he's chosen to do this. Even when he doesn't feel like
getting up and going to work, he does anyway because he's made a commitment
to his dad to be there. At 14, his work habits and attitudes are better
than any of his older sibs (who went to school) and better than many of the
other employees.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Kolleen
>Tia wrote:[snip]
>I think the people on this list handle the idea of chores in a lot of
>different ways. I think I'm somewhere near the middle. I do insist on one
>kitchen chore daily.
This is interesting considering the flavour of the topics in the past
week. I'm going to use this line as an example, but I'm not saying that
its only the mindset of Tia.
Okay, let me walk through my thought process and you can let me know if
you see the same two-sided monster that I do.
Everything is learning, hence life itself is educational.
A parent chooses to enforce one 'rule' such as a chore, yet finds issue
with any other enforcements such as TV control.
Now, doesn't that then make every idea fall under people being allowed
to be somewhere in the middle and still be considered an unschooler?
thoughts please,
kolleen
btw: In our household, there are no chores, no TV limits, no limits
besides self imposed ones. This is all purely in theory as to why I ask.
Angela
Kolleen wrote:
A parent chooses to enforce one 'rule' such as a chore, yet finds issue
with any other enforcements such as TV control.
Now, doesn't that then make every idea fall under people being allowed
to be somewhere in the middle and still be considered an unschooler?
Kolleen,
My own personal understanding of unschooling is that your child is allowed
to pursue an autonomous or self-directed education. I think the definition
ends there. Other decisions that you make regarding your children's limits
or parenting are separate issues. Granted, a lot of things overlap and
there are many gray areas, but I would consider anyone who allows their
children to be self-directed in their education as unschool. I think that
can include people who do not have a t.v. or choose to limit t.v or people
who make their children brush their teeth or straighten up a room. Every
child's environment is controlled to some extent. I think the line is drawn
when someone forces their child to do school work, including forced reading,
games, math, listening to stories that they do not choose, copy work, work
sheets, practicing an instrument, etc. I didn't realize that other people
didn't define unschooling similarly. From all the books I have read
concerning unschooling, that is what I have surmised. Of course, there is
always room for other people to interpret things differently, however, after
being on unschooling lists for the last few years, that is what I understand
most other unschoolers to believe too.
YMMV,
Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page!
http://www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -
William Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A parent chooses to enforce one 'rule' such as a chore, yet finds issue
with any other enforcements such as TV control.
Now, doesn't that then make every idea fall under people being allowed
to be somewhere in the middle and still be considered an unschooler?
Kolleen,
My own personal understanding of unschooling is that your child is allowed
to pursue an autonomous or self-directed education. I think the definition
ends there. Other decisions that you make regarding your children's limits
or parenting are separate issues. Granted, a lot of things overlap and
there are many gray areas, but I would consider anyone who allows their
children to be self-directed in their education as unschool. I think that
can include people who do not have a t.v. or choose to limit t.v or people
who make their children brush their teeth or straighten up a room. Every
child's environment is controlled to some extent. I think the line is drawn
when someone forces their child to do school work, including forced reading,
games, math, listening to stories that they do not choose, copy work, work
sheets, practicing an instrument, etc. I didn't realize that other people
didn't define unschooling similarly. From all the books I have read
concerning unschooling, that is what I have surmised. Of course, there is
always room for other people to interpret things differently, however, after
being on unschooling lists for the last few years, that is what I understand
most other unschoolers to believe too.
YMMV,
Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...
My Unschooling Page!
http://www.geocities.com/autonomousangela
"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -
William Butler Yeats
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>But I'll bite. <g>
>This is interesting considering the flavour of the topics in the past
>week. I'm going to use this line as an example, but I'm not saying that
>its only the mindset of Tia.
>Okay, let me walk through my thought process and you can let me know ifTrue.
>you see the same two-sided monster that I do.
>
>Everything is learning, hence life itself is educational.
>A parent chooses to enforce one 'rule' such as a chore, yet finds issueI think there's a difference. Maybe it hinges on why we want them to do
>with any other enforcements such as TV control.
>
>Now, doesn't that then make every idea fall under people being allowed
>to be somewhere in the middle and still be considered an unschooler?
chores (or not watch TV). If it's for their good, like they have to learn
to do chores before they grow up and leave the house, or because TV rots
their minds, or whatever, then I'd have to say it isn't unschooling.
On the other hand, my reason for insisting on a dinner chore is just that
I'm not willing to do it all myself. I suppose if he balked at doing
something to help, I might just balk at fixing dinner. I'm not sure what
I'd do. If he consistently put the TV up so loud that I couldn't tune it
out, I'd probably insist on earphones or something. (We'll have to see how
that one pans out. We just got a TV and cable last week.) But none of
this insisting is because it's for his own good, which is what insisting on
math curriculum or journal writing or whatever would be. That's where I
feel I can still call what we do unschooling. I suppose others might disagree.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Julie Stauffer
{{{{Stephanie}}}}
It really feels awful to find yourself resenting someone that you love. I
know. I've been there. My son is 9 and we have been going through the same
thing. I think it must be harder when the kids are going from being
controlled to making their own decisions. Or perhaps its a boy thing
because both of my boys are having many more issues than any of my 3 girls.
It has been about a year since the controls came off. We have never been a
real controlling house but we saw where we had made some fairly arbitrary
"rules" and worked to change that. Zach initially did pretty well as far as
self regulating but then it seemed that no matter where the line was drawn
(not being rude and hurtful to people) it was a major battle. He wouldn't
go to bed at night. We would say fine but please turn out the lights. When
we got up in the morning, EVERY light would be on REPEATEDLY. He would get
out dh's tools and dh would say great but please put them back when you are
done. I don't think they were EVER put back without it becoming a big
argument over doing what you say you'll do. I would ask him to do some
minor thing, like please pick up his jacket that he threw in the kitchen
floor and I would just get a list of reasons why he didn't have to. Zach
would commit to projects for 4-H, things that infringed on other people in
the club if he didn't do them, I would remind him and then he would get mad
at me for bringing it up.
It got to where I didn't want to spend time with him, didn't want to talk
with him because no matter what, he tried to turn it into an argument. He
would ask what time it was, I would look at the clock and tell him just
about 10:00, he would then proceed to tell me how I'm wrong that it is 9:59.
He would get accidentally jostled by a younger sibling and yell at them. I
would touch his shoulder and point out that it was an accident. Zach would
jerk away from me and yell at me. This got worse and worse over months. I
finally lost it. Told him I refused to be treated that way by anyone, that
I refused to have my children treated that way by anyone including him,
pointed out how I treat him with respect but that I refused to be his
whipping boy. (Reading back over this it sounds like I was calm, I wasn't.
I really lost it....not something I'm proud of)
Zach has for now moved back into my structuring a lot of his life. It has
been 2 days and he truly seems happier. I don't know what that means. Is
the problem the lack of imposed structure or is it an adoption issue related
to birth mom having another child? Did the lack of structure somehow equal
loss of love to him? Did he act ugly to me to try to get the structure
(love) back and it pushed me farther away? Should I have just hugged him
anyway (even though when I did he would just pull away)? Should my letting
go have been much more gradual? I don't know the answers to any of it. I
do know that my girls are doing great with lack of imposed structure.
Any and all comments are welcome
Julie
It really feels awful to find yourself resenting someone that you love. I
know. I've been there. My son is 9 and we have been going through the same
thing. I think it must be harder when the kids are going from being
controlled to making their own decisions. Or perhaps its a boy thing
because both of my boys are having many more issues than any of my 3 girls.
It has been about a year since the controls came off. We have never been a
real controlling house but we saw where we had made some fairly arbitrary
"rules" and worked to change that. Zach initially did pretty well as far as
self regulating but then it seemed that no matter where the line was drawn
(not being rude and hurtful to people) it was a major battle. He wouldn't
go to bed at night. We would say fine but please turn out the lights. When
we got up in the morning, EVERY light would be on REPEATEDLY. He would get
out dh's tools and dh would say great but please put them back when you are
done. I don't think they were EVER put back without it becoming a big
argument over doing what you say you'll do. I would ask him to do some
minor thing, like please pick up his jacket that he threw in the kitchen
floor and I would just get a list of reasons why he didn't have to. Zach
would commit to projects for 4-H, things that infringed on other people in
the club if he didn't do them, I would remind him and then he would get mad
at me for bringing it up.
It got to where I didn't want to spend time with him, didn't want to talk
with him because no matter what, he tried to turn it into an argument. He
would ask what time it was, I would look at the clock and tell him just
about 10:00, he would then proceed to tell me how I'm wrong that it is 9:59.
He would get accidentally jostled by a younger sibling and yell at them. I
would touch his shoulder and point out that it was an accident. Zach would
jerk away from me and yell at me. This got worse and worse over months. I
finally lost it. Told him I refused to be treated that way by anyone, that
I refused to have my children treated that way by anyone including him,
pointed out how I treat him with respect but that I refused to be his
whipping boy. (Reading back over this it sounds like I was calm, I wasn't.
I really lost it....not something I'm proud of)
Zach has for now moved back into my structuring a lot of his life. It has
been 2 days and he truly seems happier. I don't know what that means. Is
the problem the lack of imposed structure or is it an adoption issue related
to birth mom having another child? Did the lack of structure somehow equal
loss of love to him? Did he act ugly to me to try to get the structure
(love) back and it pushed me farther away? Should I have just hugged him
anyway (even though when I did he would just pull away)? Should my letting
go have been much more gradual? I don't know the answers to any of it. I
do know that my girls are doing great with lack of imposed structure.
Any and all comments are welcome
Julie
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/02 12:23:42 PM, jnjstau@... writes:
<< Told him I refused to be treated that way by anyone, that
I refused to have my children treated that way by anyone including him,
pointed out how I treat him with respect but that I refused to be his
whipping boy. >>
That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
When my kids have been yucky to one another from time to time, I've talked to
the agressor and said things like "I love you and I'm sorry you're so
frustrated, but I'm (Marty's or Holly's) mom too, and it's my job to see that
you're all safe and comfortable in your own home. You can't
(torment/hit/shame/threaten) him/her here and not expect me to make you stop.
I'd make strangers and bad guys stop it, and I'm making you stop it. "
Another thing is to suggest that if they want to do that they need to get
their own place.
"If you want to be hateful to Marty, you need to wait until you can rent our
own apartment, and invite him over. THEN you can act however you want. I
don't think he'll come, if you keep treating him this way, but you could
invite him. But you can't do it here, where it's his house."
When I was teaching junior high I used to say that to kids who were bristling
up for a fight at lunch or something. I'd say to one (if I knew one or had
one in my class) or sometimes if I was lucky BOTH, "Hey, if you guys want to
fight maybe you should ask your mom to drive you to his house after school,
you knock on the door and ask his mom if he can come out to fight. And do it
there, in his driveway. Maybe his dad or his brothers will want to get
involved!"
And I'd say it all merrily as though it were a happy alternative. But I
rarely got past the "ask your mom to drive you over" before lots of kids were
laughing and seeing it as the ludicrous thing it was.
What seems reasonable in the heat of the moment is often silly looking with
more light and humor on it.
Sandra
<< Told him I refused to be treated that way by anyone, that
I refused to have my children treated that way by anyone including him,
pointed out how I treat him with respect but that I refused to be his
whipping boy. >>
That doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
When my kids have been yucky to one another from time to time, I've talked to
the agressor and said things like "I love you and I'm sorry you're so
frustrated, but I'm (Marty's or Holly's) mom too, and it's my job to see that
you're all safe and comfortable in your own home. You can't
(torment/hit/shame/threaten) him/her here and not expect me to make you stop.
I'd make strangers and bad guys stop it, and I'm making you stop it. "
Another thing is to suggest that if they want to do that they need to get
their own place.
"If you want to be hateful to Marty, you need to wait until you can rent our
own apartment, and invite him over. THEN you can act however you want. I
don't think he'll come, if you keep treating him this way, but you could
invite him. But you can't do it here, where it's his house."
When I was teaching junior high I used to say that to kids who were bristling
up for a fight at lunch or something. I'd say to one (if I knew one or had
one in my class) or sometimes if I was lucky BOTH, "Hey, if you guys want to
fight maybe you should ask your mom to drive you to his house after school,
you knock on the door and ask his mom if he can come out to fight. And do it
there, in his driveway. Maybe his dad or his brothers will want to get
involved!"
And I'd say it all merrily as though it were a happy alternative. But I
rarely got past the "ask your mom to drive you over" before lots of kids were
laughing and seeing it as the ludicrous thing it was.
What seems reasonable in the heat of the moment is often silly looking with
more light and humor on it.
Sandra
[email protected]
Julie,
Your son sounds a lot like my boys.. ( maybe it IS a boy thing)..My 11 yo,
Ethan, is very much like Zach. I think some people DO need structure. They
become unsure and overwhelmed without it. I can not relenquish all rules
and restrictions on my children. I have read much about unlimited game and
TV time. I do agree, that restricting time on these activities only makes
children obsess over them.. And I also know that if given unlimited use,
children will self regulate in time. BUT, there is the issue of "fairness"
For instance, we only have one computer. All four children ( and Mom and
Dad) cant physically have unlimited use of it. There has to be limits. I
have to say, Ethan, you can play for an hour, then it is JPs turn. .. And, I
have found that "banning" them from things they enjoy is a good consequence
for inappropiate actions. "OK boys, if you dont straighten up your room, you
can not watch Yugi Oh. I am sure, in the unschooling philosophy, my
practices may not be acceptable, but, like I have said before, . every family
has to do what works for THEM.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Your son sounds a lot like my boys.. ( maybe it IS a boy thing)..My 11 yo,
Ethan, is very much like Zach. I think some people DO need structure. They
become unsure and overwhelmed without it. I can not relenquish all rules
and restrictions on my children. I have read much about unlimited game and
TV time. I do agree, that restricting time on these activities only makes
children obsess over them.. And I also know that if given unlimited use,
children will self regulate in time. BUT, there is the issue of "fairness"
For instance, we only have one computer. All four children ( and Mom and
Dad) cant physically have unlimited use of it. There has to be limits. I
have to say, Ethan, you can play for an hour, then it is JPs turn. .. And, I
have found that "banning" them from things they enjoy is a good consequence
for inappropiate actions. "OK boys, if you dont straighten up your room, you
can not watch Yugi Oh. I am sure, in the unschooling philosophy, my
practices may not be acceptable, but, like I have said before, . every family
has to do what works for THEM.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/02 12:44:17 PM, grlynbl@... writes:
<< All four children ( and Mom and
Dad) cant physically have unlimited use of it. There has to be limits. >>
That's called sharing, not "limits."
Six people can share a bathroom and yet still get to stay in as long as they
really need to. I grew up that way. I've experienced it working.
If no one else needs in, take your time. Bathroom or computer.
If someone needs on, you need to let them have a turn.
Kids can learn to negotiate those real-life situations.
<<And, I
have found that "banning" them from things they enjoy is a good consequence
for inappropiate actions. "OK boys, if you dont straighten up your room, you
can not watch Yugi Oh. >>
Who will withhold what from them when they leave home to get them to clean
their rooms?
If they're only trained to clean to get a reward, and not because having a
clean room is nice, will they have clean rooms when they're grown?
If Yugi Oh has any value to them and you can see the value, will making them
"earn" the privilege of doing something important and useful make their
relationship with parents more trusting and solid?
-=- I think some people DO need structure. They
become unsure and overwhelmed without it. I can not relenquish all rules
and restrictions on my children. -=-
"Relinquish" has an extreme meaning. It's to totally dissolve a situation
all of a sudden.
If what your children do is done for good reasons and what you ask is for a
good reason, you can move from rules and restrictions to helping them make
good decisions made on principle.
Learning to live from principle will last a lifetime.
Learning to live with rules and restrictions only lasts until the rules and
restrictions are gone.
Sandra
<< All four children ( and Mom and
Dad) cant physically have unlimited use of it. There has to be limits. >>
That's called sharing, not "limits."
Six people can share a bathroom and yet still get to stay in as long as they
really need to. I grew up that way. I've experienced it working.
If no one else needs in, take your time. Bathroom or computer.
If someone needs on, you need to let them have a turn.
Kids can learn to negotiate those real-life situations.
<<And, I
have found that "banning" them from things they enjoy is a good consequence
for inappropiate actions. "OK boys, if you dont straighten up your room, you
can not watch Yugi Oh. >>
Who will withhold what from them when they leave home to get them to clean
their rooms?
If they're only trained to clean to get a reward, and not because having a
clean room is nice, will they have clean rooms when they're grown?
If Yugi Oh has any value to them and you can see the value, will making them
"earn" the privilege of doing something important and useful make their
relationship with parents more trusting and solid?
-=- I think some people DO need structure. They
become unsure and overwhelmed without it. I can not relenquish all rules
and restrictions on my children. -=-
"Relinquish" has an extreme meaning. It's to totally dissolve a situation
all of a sudden.
If what your children do is done for good reasons and what you ask is for a
good reason, you can move from rules and restrictions to helping them make
good decisions made on principle.
Learning to live from principle will last a lifetime.
Learning to live with rules and restrictions only lasts until the rules and
restrictions are gone.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/02 3:14:13 PM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< . every family
has to do what works for THEM. >>
What this statement usually means, is what works for the PARENTS.
My children have just as much say in what works in this household.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< . every family
has to do what works for THEM. >>
What this statement usually means, is what works for the PARENTS.
My children have just as much say in what works in this household.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/2002 1:23:34 PM Central Standard Time,
jnjstau@... writes:
To me it seems like all those things could be playing a role, especially the
birth mother thing. But I also think he just doesn't trust that he's really
free to do what he wants. It's not safe for him. Maybe he thinks that
you're pulling his chain and don't really mean what you say?
My oldest son couldn't make the leap to complete freedom when I took him out
of school. He went back within a year. It was safer for him to be told what
to do. Thus, he's in the Army. ? Anyway, he was angry at me for a while,
and still holds some kind of resentment, but I think he's getting some
perspective in boot camp. ;) At least according to his letters.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jnjstau@... writes:
> I don't know the answers to any of it. IHow old is he?
> do know that my girls are doing great with lack of imposed structure.
>
> Any and all comments are welcome
>
To me it seems like all those things could be playing a role, especially the
birth mother thing. But I also think he just doesn't trust that he's really
free to do what he wants. It's not safe for him. Maybe he thinks that
you're pulling his chain and don't really mean what you say?
My oldest son couldn't make the leap to complete freedom when I took him out
of school. He went back within a year. It was safer for him to be told what
to do. Thus, he's in the Army. ? Anyway, he was angry at me for a while,
and still holds some kind of resentment, but I think he's getting some
perspective in boot camp. ;) At least according to his letters.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/2002 2:07:16 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
my first apartment at the time. Just think how much nicer it would have been
for me for so many years if I had learned that as a child, instead of
cleaning because I was told to.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> If they're only trained to clean to get a reward, and not because having aWell, I did learn that having clean rooms was nice, but I was an adult with
> clean room is nice, will they have clean rooms when they're grown?
>
my first apartment at the time. Just think how much nicer it would have been
for me for so many years if I had learned that as a child, instead of
cleaning because I was told to.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/02 3:04:35 PM, tuckervill@... writes:
<< My oldest son couldn't make the leap to complete freedom when I took him
out
of school. He went back within a year. It was safer for him to be told what
to do. Thus, he's in the Army. >>
I almost used the word "military" earlier on, to mention that when/if
children are naturally desirous of being told what to do and when and how, or
if the parents train them to function best with methodical instruction, then
the military might really be a good future for them.
Some people really do like that kind of structure. Churches and cults depend
on that.
Sandra
<< My oldest son couldn't make the leap to complete freedom when I took him
out
of school. He went back within a year. It was safer for him to be told what
to do. Thus, he's in the Army. >>
I almost used the word "military" earlier on, to mention that when/if
children are naturally desirous of being told what to do and when and how, or
if the parents train them to function best with methodical instruction, then
the military might really be a good future for them.
Some people really do like that kind of structure. Churches and cults depend
on that.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/02 4:35:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
getting back into defensive mode and spending all of my time explaining and
trying to convince others that our family is not "bad" or "wrong" I''ll
put my childrens "rights" and "freedoms" up to yours ( or anyone elses)
anytime
Ter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> What this statement usually means, is what works for the PARENTS.So do mine. "Them" is a reference to the family as a whole. I'm not
> My children have just as much say in what works in this household.
>
> Ren
>
getting back into defensive mode and spending all of my time explaining and
trying to convince others that our family is not "bad" or "wrong" I''ll
put my childrens "rights" and "freedoms" up to yours ( or anyone elses)
anytime
Ter
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/2002 4:22:09 PM Central Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
But I do see in my son an ability to be very cynical about the "system" and
to work it to his advantage. (I'm not quite sure that's a good thing.) For
instance, they made him platoon leader in boot camp, which is something he
wanted, because he has lots of experience and he has his mother's leadership
abilities <g>. But he said his platoon was full of inept people (I won't use
the words he did), and so he worked it so they would fire him. He didn't
want to be responsible for their mistakes.
I don't think he would have had that capacity if there hadn't been that one
year of homeschooling. He learned he could change things, and didn't have to
stay with the status quo. I'm not too thrilled about the way he did it, but
he's still learning.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> I almost used the word "military" earlier on, to mention that when/ifYeah.
> children are naturally desirous of being told what to do and when and how,
> or
> if the parents train them to function best with methodical instruction,
> then
> the military might really be a good future for them.
>
> Some people really do like that kind of structure. Churches and cults
> depend
> on that.
>
But I do see in my son an ability to be very cynical about the "system" and
to work it to his advantage. (I'm not quite sure that's a good thing.) For
instance, they made him platoon leader in boot camp, which is something he
wanted, because he has lots of experience and he has his mother's leadership
abilities <g>. But he said his platoon was full of inept people (I won't use
the words he did), and so he worked it so they would fire him. He didn't
want to be responsible for their mistakes.
I don't think he would have had that capacity if there hadn't been that one
year of homeschooling. He learned he could change things, and didn't have to
stay with the status quo. I'm not too thrilled about the way he did it, but
he's still learning.
Tuck
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/02 3:24:28 PM, grlynbl@... writes:
<< I'm not
getting back into defensive mode and spending all of my time explaining and
trying to convince others that our family is not "bad" or "wrong" >>
I'm sure she didn't mean for you to do that.
If you can't handle having people question statements you make it might be
best not to make public statements.
When someone throws out an problem for advice on an unschooling list, it's
not only reasonable but WONDERFUL for them to get unschooling information.
And recommendations which can lead away from principles dear to the hearts of
some of the people on this list will invariably be pointed at as things
perhaps to be avoided.
Many, many parents justify whatever they want to do by statements like "It
works for us," or "You know your own children best" or other traditional
shut-down phrases.
-=-I''ll put my childrens "rights" and "freedoms" up to yours ( or anyone
elses)
anytime-=-
Why the quotation marks on "rights" and "freedoms"?
My children have lots of rights and freedoms.
Real ones.
They have a lot of understandings and awarenesses.
No quotation marks.
Can't we talk about ideas and practices, successes and errors and progress,
without people getting huffy and taking it personally?
Sandra
<< I'm not
getting back into defensive mode and spending all of my time explaining and
trying to convince others that our family is not "bad" or "wrong" >>
I'm sure she didn't mean for you to do that.
If you can't handle having people question statements you make it might be
best not to make public statements.
When someone throws out an problem for advice on an unschooling list, it's
not only reasonable but WONDERFUL for them to get unschooling information.
And recommendations which can lead away from principles dear to the hearts of
some of the people on this list will invariably be pointed at as things
perhaps to be avoided.
Many, many parents justify whatever they want to do by statements like "It
works for us," or "You know your own children best" or other traditional
shut-down phrases.
-=-I''ll put my childrens "rights" and "freedoms" up to yours ( or anyone
elses)
anytime-=-
Why the quotation marks on "rights" and "freedoms"?
My children have lots of rights and freedoms.
Real ones.
They have a lot of understandings and awarenesses.
No quotation marks.
Can't we talk about ideas and practices, successes and errors and progress,
without people getting huffy and taking it personally?
Sandra
Donna <[email protected]>
Hi Ren. I tried looking at pensacolaunschoolers.com and received an
error message. Perhaps the address isn't correct? Thanks. Donna in
Florida.
error message. Perhaps the address isn't correct? Thanks. Donna in
Florida.
> RenLobel
> "Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
> ~Arnold
> Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
Kathy Sullivan
I just checked it out.. worked frine. maybe your computer was having hickups at the moment. lol Mine seems to get them often. :) http://www.pensacolaunschoolers.com/
----- Original Message -----
From: Donna <frodolass@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 11, 2002 6:22 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Ren.
Hi Ren. I tried looking at pensacolaunschoolers.com and received an
error message. Perhaps the address isn't correct? Thanks. Donna in
Florida.
> Ren
> "Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
> ~Arnold
Lobel
> Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/02 5:35:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Does my reply somehow indicate that I can not handle questions about my
statements?
I didnt make any reccomendations at all. I was agreeing with ( oh, cant
remember her name.. Zachs mother). about how some children do need control
and limitations. I didnt recommend my parenting methods to anyone. I simply
stated what we do. And, how can you speak for other unschoolers about what
is dear to thier hearts?
Reread my original post, thats exactly what I said.. Every family does what
works for THEM.
I quoted rights and freedoms because my children do not have total freedom or
unlimited rights in our house. In our society, there is no such thing as
absolute freedom or rights. You are now implying that the rights and
freedoms my children have are not real. What gives you basis to make that
judgement? Because they have to ration thier time on the PC? Or finish thier
chores before they watch TV?
. Actually, I was misleading in saying "straighten their rooms" that is
just what came off the top of my head. They dont clean thier rooms.. And
they dont care if they are nice and clean. Oh yeah, they like them nice and
clean, but not enough to do it themselves.. You can't walk in thier rooms.
They cant find thier toys or games or clothes. My mother didnt make me
clean my room either. and I am a terrible housekeeper. Its a very sore point
with my husband, sometimes I wish I had been made to keep my room clean.. (
OK rambling now).. But, they do have some family chores that I need them to
do to help keep our household together.. Washing dishes, folding laundry,
feeding the pets, picking up after themselves in the living room and
bathroom..
I didnt bite first, I bit back. Ren implied that I do what is good for
ME,not my family. And she also implied by saying that her kids have a say in
thier household that mine dont. She made a personal statement to me,and I
replied. And, you will have to answer your own question for yourself.
I do consider myself an unschooler. I dont use a curriculum or follow
conventional methods in raising my children. My family is totally "out
there", liberated, if you will. I don't believe every person has to
subscribe to every one of your ( or any other unschooler's) beliefs to be a
true unschooler. I am sure others on this list have their own methods and
practices for unschooling and parenting thier children. Are we not allowed
to voice our opinions and thoughts if they differ from yours? What I do not
understand is the compulsive need to convert every one to your way of
thinking in every aspect of homeschooling and parenting. We are all
different, and it's all good.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
>*******
> I'm sure she didn't mean for you to do that.
>
> If you can't handle having people question statements you make it might be
> best not to make public statements.
Does my reply somehow indicate that I can not handle questions about my
statements?
>*******************
> When someone throws out an problem for advice on an unschooling list, it's
> not only reasonable but WONDERFUL for them to get unschooling information.
>
> And recommendations which can lead away from principles dear to the hearts
> of
> some of the people on this list will invariably be pointed at as things
> perhaps to be avoided.
I didnt make any reccomendations at all. I was agreeing with ( oh, cant
remember her name.. Zachs mother). about how some children do need control
and limitations. I didnt recommend my parenting methods to anyone. I simply
stated what we do. And, how can you speak for other unschoolers about what
is dear to thier hearts?
>*************
> Many, many parents justify whatever they want to do by statements like "It
> works for us," or "You know your own children best" or other traditional
> shut-down phrases.
Reread my original post, thats exactly what I said.. Every family does what
works for THEM.
>*******
>
>
> -=-I''ll put my childrens "rights" and "freedoms" up to yours ( or anyone
> elses)
> anytime-=-
>
> Why the quotation marks on "rights" and "freedoms"?
>
> My children have lots of rights and freedoms.
> Real ones.
> They have a lot of understandings and awarenesses.
> No quotation marks.
I quoted rights and freedoms because my children do not have total freedom or
unlimited rights in our house. In our society, there is no such thing as
absolute freedom or rights. You are now implying that the rights and
freedoms my children have are not real. What gives you basis to make that
judgement? Because they have to ration thier time on the PC? Or finish thier
chores before they watch TV?
. Actually, I was misleading in saying "straighten their rooms" that is
just what came off the top of my head. They dont clean thier rooms.. And
they dont care if they are nice and clean. Oh yeah, they like them nice and
clean, but not enough to do it themselves.. You can't walk in thier rooms.
They cant find thier toys or games or clothes. My mother didnt make me
clean my room either. and I am a terrible housekeeper. Its a very sore point
with my husband, sometimes I wish I had been made to keep my room clean.. (
OK rambling now).. But, they do have some family chores that I need them to
do to help keep our household together.. Washing dishes, folding laundry,
feeding the pets, picking up after themselves in the living room and
bathroom..
>*********
> Can't we talk about ideas and practices, successes and errors and progress,
>
> without people getting huffy and taking it personally?
I didnt bite first, I bit back. Ren implied that I do what is good for
ME,not my family. And she also implied by saying that her kids have a say in
thier household that mine dont. She made a personal statement to me,and I
replied. And, you will have to answer your own question for yourself.
I do consider myself an unschooler. I dont use a curriculum or follow
conventional methods in raising my children. My family is totally "out
there", liberated, if you will. I don't believe every person has to
subscribe to every one of your ( or any other unschooler's) beliefs to be a
true unschooler. I am sure others on this list have their own methods and
practices for unschooling and parenting thier children. Are we not allowed
to voice our opinions and thoughts if they differ from yours? What I do not
understand is the compulsive need to convert every one to your way of
thinking in every aspect of homeschooling and parenting. We are all
different, and it's all good.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/02 7:05:59 PM, grlynbl@... writes:
<< You are now implying that the rights and
freedoms my children have are not real. What gives you basis to make that
judgement? >>
Because you used quotation marks, which is the way to indicate "so called" or
"alleged" in English.
Sandra
<< You are now implying that the rights and
freedoms my children have are not real. What gives you basis to make that
judgement? >>
Because you used quotation marks, which is the way to indicate "so called" or
"alleged" in English.
Sandra
Donna <[email protected]>
Yep! It's working. Thanks so much! Donna.
http://www.pensacolaunschoolers.com/
> I just checked it out.. worked frine. maybe your computer washaving hickups at the moment. lol Mine seems to get them often. :)
http://www.pensacolaunschoolers.com/
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/02 12:08:58 AM Central Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I didnt bite first, I bit back. Ren implied that I do what is good for
ME,not my family. And she also implied by saying that her kids have a say
in
thier household that mine dont. She made a personal statement to me,and I
replied. And, you will have to answer your own question for yourself. >>
Whoa, wait a minute there.
Bit back? Let's look at the statement I made that catapaulted this into a
defense mode, shall we.
There was a statement made (I didn't even look to see who said it, nor did I
care) that every family has to do what works for THEM.
I took exception to that IDEA, to the statement. Because I don't agree that
when people say this they mean what works for everyone. It means what works
for part of the family.
I questioned an idea, a concept, a statement.
That's biting?
Wow.
I think you need to re-read my post and my statement that my kids are equally
important in what works for our family in a different light perhaps.
It was a statement.
It was no attack on you or anyone else. I questioned an idea, I made a
statement about my family and you somehow turned it into a personal vendetta
against your parenting.
Slow down....take a deep breath....re-read the post that pissed you off so
bad and then try not to read into things that I didn't say.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected] writes:
<< I didnt bite first, I bit back. Ren implied that I do what is good for
ME,not my family. And she also implied by saying that her kids have a say
in
thier household that mine dont. She made a personal statement to me,and I
replied. And, you will have to answer your own question for yourself. >>
Whoa, wait a minute there.
Bit back? Let's look at the statement I made that catapaulted this into a
defense mode, shall we.
There was a statement made (I didn't even look to see who said it, nor did I
care) that every family has to do what works for THEM.
I took exception to that IDEA, to the statement. Because I don't agree that
when people say this they mean what works for everyone. It means what works
for part of the family.
I questioned an idea, a concept, a statement.
That's biting?
Wow.
I think you need to re-read my post and my statement that my kids are equally
important in what works for our family in a different light perhaps.
It was a statement.
It was no attack on you or anyone else. I questioned an idea, I made a
statement about my family and you somehow turned it into a personal vendetta
against your parenting.
Slow down....take a deep breath....re-read the post that pissed you off so
bad and then try not to read into things that I didn't say.
Ren
"Knowledge will not always take the place of simple observation."
~Arnold Lobel
Unschooling support at pensacolaunschoolers.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/02 4:06:20 AM Eastern Standard Time,
starsuncloud@... writes:
Sandras reply.
Others on this list will skirt around it, or basically keep thier mouth shut
and not rock the boat. But, this list is not really for unschoolers. Its
if for a select few to tout thier ideals and methods as the only way to
unschool. I have seen it over and over, and not just in conflict with my
personal opinions. It reminds me of denominations within Christianity who
think they are the only people going to heaven and everyone who does not
agree or subsribe to thier beliefs is doomed for Hell. Sandra didnt reply
to all of the comments I made in my post, she picked the quotations mark
issue.. PFFFTTT.. big freaking deal. What a petty issue. I know that
what I post here is basically ignored, unless there is an iota of
disagreement with the few that reign here. Then , my words are picked apart
like a decaying carcass by a vulture. The funny thing is, I DO agree with
about 90% of what most practice on this list. But I will not conform to peer
pressure to change my practices 100% to what someone thinks will work for my
family. It's unfortunate that others wont come forward and agree with me
that we are all diverse in our unschooling methods.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
starsuncloud@... writes:
> Slow down....take a deep breath....re-read the post that pissed you off soThe post that pissed me off so bad was not really your orignal reply, it was
> bad and then try not to read into things that I didn't say.
>
>
> Ren
>
Sandras reply.
Others on this list will skirt around it, or basically keep thier mouth shut
and not rock the boat. But, this list is not really for unschoolers. Its
if for a select few to tout thier ideals and methods as the only way to
unschool. I have seen it over and over, and not just in conflict with my
personal opinions. It reminds me of denominations within Christianity who
think they are the only people going to heaven and everyone who does not
agree or subsribe to thier beliefs is doomed for Hell. Sandra didnt reply
to all of the comments I made in my post, she picked the quotations mark
issue.. PFFFTTT.. big freaking deal. What a petty issue. I know that
what I post here is basically ignored, unless there is an iota of
disagreement with the few that reign here. Then , my words are picked apart
like a decaying carcass by a vulture. The funny thing is, I DO agree with
about 90% of what most practice on this list. But I will not conform to peer
pressure to change my practices 100% to what someone thinks will work for my
family. It's unfortunate that others wont come forward and agree with me
that we are all diverse in our unschooling methods.
Teresa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/2002 6:56:24 AM Central Standard Time,
grlynbl@... writes:
Many aspects of life are affected by our choice to unschool and are relevant
to the discussion. Why shouldn't people share what works, what doesn't, what
principles they follow, how their children react and learn and grow? How
else are we going to learn from each other? If we don't question our
beliefs, how are we to grow?
This whole issue of something taking a questioning response personally tends
to come up every week or so. Maybe that's why so many folks keep their
mouths shut, they've defended the list before.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
grlynbl@... writes:
> Others on this list will skirt around it, or basically keep thier mouthI couldn't disagree with this statement more. Unschooling is a way of life.
> shut
> and not rock the boat. But, this list is not really for unschoolers.
Many aspects of life are affected by our choice to unschool and are relevant
to the discussion. Why shouldn't people share what works, what doesn't, what
principles they follow, how their children react and learn and grow? How
else are we going to learn from each other? If we don't question our
beliefs, how are we to grow?
This whole issue of something taking a questioning response personally tends
to come up every week or so. Maybe that's why so many folks keep their
mouths shut, they've defended the list before.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/02 4:56:08 AM Pacific Standard Time, grlynbl@...
writes:
a lot and I mean tons of wonderful information, some seems everyone is on
that level other get attacked for this or that or feel they do and I take
what they said and agree, I just don't feel a need to beat a dead horse and
argue or try to change someone else's thoughts especially when I teach my
children to stand by their thoughts.
I have my rain gear on bring on the tomatoes.
Heidi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> It's unfortunate that others wont come forward and agree with meI will agree, I take from this list what I want and ignore the rest. I find
> that we are all diverse in our unschooling methods.
a lot and I mean tons of wonderful information, some seems everyone is on
that level other get attacked for this or that or feel they do and I take
what they said and agree, I just don't feel a need to beat a dead horse and
argue or try to change someone else's thoughts especially when I teach my
children to stand by their thoughts.
I have my rain gear on bring on the tomatoes.
Heidi
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/11/02 5:35:38 PM Eastern Standard Time,
tuckervill@... writes:
some point in Basic. (Although I am SURE he is as wonderful as you say!)
But he said his platoon was full of inept people (I won't use
There is a reason for everything in Basic. They (The drill sergeants) are
taught an awful lolt about emotional stress.
Elissa
tuckervill@... writes:
> ForTuck, I hate to say it , but they make almost EVERYBODY platoon leader at
> instance, they made him platoon leader in boot camp, which is something he
> wanted, because he has lots of experience and he has his mother's
> leadership
> abilities <g>.
some point in Basic. (Although I am SURE he is as wonderful as you say!)
But he said his platoon was full of inept people (I won't use
>This is why there are so many different platoon leaders. Most do the same.
> the words he did), and so he worked it so they would fire him. He didn't
> want to be responsible for their mistakes.
There is a reason for everything in Basic. They (The drill sergeants) are
taught an awful lolt about emotional stress.
Elissa
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/02 9:01:57 AM, Earthmomma67@... writes:
<< This is why there are so many different platoon leaders. Most do the same.
There is a reason for everything in Basic. They (The drill sergeants) are
taught an awful lolt about emotional stress. >>
And aren't they figuring out which of those guys show some potential in a
leadership role and which just further prove that they're not all that
together?
I figured it was a sorting process.
Sandra
<< This is why there are so many different platoon leaders. Most do the same.
There is a reason for everything in Basic. They (The drill sergeants) are
taught an awful lolt about emotional stress. >>
And aren't they figuring out which of those guys show some potential in a
leadership role and which just further prove that they're not all that
together?
I figured it was a sorting process.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/02 11:13:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:
Sometimes in Advanced Individual Training (AIT) when they teach you your job
Definately in real life army.
Basic is so far from Real life Army it's like a different world.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
SandraDodd@... writes:
> And aren't they figuring out which of those guys show some potential in aNot in Basic.
> leadership role and which just further prove that they're not all that
> together?
Sometimes in Advanced Individual Training (AIT) when they teach you your job
Definately in real life army.
Basic is so far from Real life Army it's like a different world.
Elissa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]