Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] music
Joseph Fuerst
Oh, Dawn!
PLEASE run to your library and get Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn!
Perhaps the short term result is that you and the Suzuki lady get to control
your son's behavior....but in the long run his love of playing an instrument
will be damaged!
While you're at the library, check out John Holt's Learning All the
Time and read his comments on the Suzuki music program in the U.S.A.
Susan....about ready to make a comeback after my e-sabbatical.
I'm a little afraid to put my 2 cents in here, but what the heck! My son is
in
a Suzuki piano program, and it is incredibly rewards based. I was a bit
concerned at first, but have decided that if it works, it works. His
teacher
assigns certain pieces to practice on a take home sheet. He gets a check
mark
for each day that he practices each piece. When he reaches 100 check marks
(usually every other week if he is diligent), he gets a candy bar or
something
else from her drawer full of dollar store treasures. He is also assigned a
"candy bar piece" from time to time, and earns a trip to the wonderful
drawer
of treasures for playing it flawlessly. This keeps his practicing. He has
discovered in the course of his five months of lessons that there is an
additional reward of learning to play well, but I'm sure that without the
incentives, the practicing would stop or slow down. This system is geared
toward the five and six year old students. Certainly there is some way to
tailor this to an older child if you really would like to encourage her to
practice. So many check marks gets a video rental or a trip to the mall, or
whatever else works for you. There is incentive to practice but no
punishment
for not practicing. It is like the poker chip game we used to play with our
son when he was four and going through an "unruly" phase. :o) Just a
thought.
Dawn
--
PLEASE run to your library and get Punished by Rewards by Alfie Kohn!
Perhaps the short term result is that you and the Suzuki lady get to control
your son's behavior....but in the long run his love of playing an instrument
will be damaged!
While you're at the library, check out John Holt's Learning All the
Time and read his comments on the Suzuki music program in the U.S.A.
Susan....about ready to make a comeback after my e-sabbatical.
I'm a little afraid to put my 2 cents in here, but what the heck! My son is
in
a Suzuki piano program, and it is incredibly rewards based. I was a bit
concerned at first, but have decided that if it works, it works. His
teacher
assigns certain pieces to practice on a take home sheet. He gets a check
mark
for each day that he practices each piece. When he reaches 100 check marks
(usually every other week if he is diligent), he gets a candy bar or
something
else from her drawer full of dollar store treasures. He is also assigned a
"candy bar piece" from time to time, and earns a trip to the wonderful
drawer
of treasures for playing it flawlessly. This keeps his practicing. He has
discovered in the course of his five months of lessons that there is an
additional reward of learning to play well, but I'm sure that without the
incentives, the practicing would stop or slow down. This system is geared
toward the five and six year old students. Certainly there is some way to
tailor this to an older child if you really would like to encourage her to
practice. So many check marks gets a video rental or a trip to the mall, or
whatever else works for you. There is incentive to practice but no
punishment
for not practicing. It is like the poker chip game we used to play with our
son when he was four and going through an "unruly" phase. :o) Just a
thought.
Dawn
--
Alan & Brenda Leonard
11/15/02 01:10:
musicians) never learn to hear and play by ear.
But if you can only play things that you've heard (that somebody else has
already played), then you miss something, too.
brenda
> You know...I think that being able to play music by ear is so muchI think it's a balance. Too many people (especially classically-trained
> more important (not sure if that is the right word, but it is the only
> one coming to me right now) then reading music. Anyone can be taught to
> read music. It is the ear to hear the pitches and the feeling that is
> important.
musicians) never learn to hear and play by ear.
But if you can only play things that you've heard (that somebody else has
already played), then you miss something, too.
brenda
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/15/02 1:59:59 AM, abtleo@... writes:
<< But if you can only play things that you've heard (that somebody else has
already played), then you miss something, too. >>
But the written music is something someone has alread played too, just
notated differently.
Maybe it's more like the difference between a storyteller learning stories
from other story-tellers (the old-timey way of ancient cultures) and learning
some (or all) from books.
The ballads I know which I'm actually in the business of passing on are two I
learned from the repeated singing (from weekly get-togethers, years ago) of a
woman who is Jean Ritchie's cousin. I have two songs from her, and dozens
from other sources. I brought those others back to sound-life, but they
had already been "preserved" in books or on recordings and didn't really need
me (in a way of thinking).
Writing them down preserves and also impedes a traditional song. The written
version starts to take precedence over variety of performance. Recordings,
same. (Thinking of traditional forms.) Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.
Sandra
<< But if you can only play things that you've heard (that somebody else has
already played), then you miss something, too. >>
But the written music is something someone has alread played too, just
notated differently.
Maybe it's more like the difference between a storyteller learning stories
from other story-tellers (the old-timey way of ancient cultures) and learning
some (or all) from books.
The ballads I know which I'm actually in the business of passing on are two I
learned from the repeated singing (from weekly get-togethers, years ago) of a
woman who is Jean Ritchie's cousin. I have two songs from her, and dozens
from other sources. I brought those others back to sound-life, but they
had already been "preserved" in books or on recordings and didn't really need
me (in a way of thinking).
Writing them down preserves and also impedes a traditional song. The written
version starts to take precedence over variety of performance. Recordings,
same. (Thinking of traditional forms.) Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.
Sandra
Kelli Traaseth
SandraDodd@... wrote:
*Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.*
I don't know, I guess for me, I have the CD, I've really enjoyed it, because I am not familiar with that music. And then it has opened my mind to different kinds. I want to look into those old songs and hear the traditional ones too. Even if it just exposes this music to others who havn't ever heard it, isn't that good? I just love the song with the people walking to the water, to me its just beautiful.
And aren't those interpretations just artists putting their own creative spin on things?
I understand your point, but I guess I am also glad that it has come to me in this way, which is better than it not ever coming to me at all.
Kelli
In a message dated 11/15/02 1:59:59 AM, abtleo@... writes:
<< But if you can only play things that you've heard (that somebody else has
already played), then you miss something, too. >>
But the written music is something someone has alread played too, just
notated differently.
Maybe it's more like the difference between a storyteller learning stories
from other story-tellers (the old-timey way of ancient cultures) and learning
some (or all) from books.
The ballads I know which I'm actually in the business of passing on are two I
learned from the repeated singing (from weekly get-togethers, years ago) of a
woman who is Jean Ritchie's cousin. I have two songs from her, and dozens
from other sources. I brought those others back to sound-life, but they
had already been "preserved" in books or on recordings and didn't really need
me (in a way of thinking).
Writing them down preserves and also impedes a traditional song. The written
version starts to take precedence over variety of performance. Recordings,
same. (Thinking of traditional forms.) Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
*Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.*
I don't know, I guess for me, I have the CD, I've really enjoyed it, because I am not familiar with that music. And then it has opened my mind to different kinds. I want to look into those old songs and hear the traditional ones too. Even if it just exposes this music to others who havn't ever heard it, isn't that good? I just love the song with the people walking to the water, to me its just beautiful.
And aren't those interpretations just artists putting their own creative spin on things?
I understand your point, but I guess I am also glad that it has come to me in this way, which is better than it not ever coming to me at all.
Kelli
In a message dated 11/15/02 1:59:59 AM, abtleo@... writes:
<< But if you can only play things that you've heard (that somebody else has
already played), then you miss something, too. >>
But the written music is something someone has alread played too, just
notated differently.
Maybe it's more like the difference between a storyteller learning stories
from other story-tellers (the old-timey way of ancient cultures) and learning
some (or all) from books.
The ballads I know which I'm actually in the business of passing on are two I
learned from the repeated singing (from weekly get-togethers, years ago) of a
woman who is Jean Ritchie's cousin. I have two songs from her, and dozens
from other sources. I brought those others back to sound-life, but they
had already been "preserved" in books or on recordings and didn't really need
me (in a way of thinking).
Writing them down preserves and also impedes a traditional song. The written
version starts to take precedence over variety of performance. Recordings,
same. (Thinking of traditional forms.) Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=233351.2658116.4039490.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1261185/R=0/id=flashurl/*https://www.gotomypc.com/tr/yh/grp/300_01F/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/expert_city/093002_weather300x250_01f.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=233351.2658116.4039490.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1261185/R=1/id=altimgurl/*https://www.gotomypc.com/tr/yh/grp/300_01F/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/expert_city/093002_weather300x250_map.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
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Kelli Traaseth
Sorry about the margins on that last post,
don't know why it did that?
Kelli
Kelli Traaseth <kellitraas@...> wrote:
SandraDodd@... wrote:
*Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.*
I don't know, I guess for me, I have the CD, I've really enjoyed it, because I am not familiar with that music. And then it has opened my mind to different kinds. I want to look into those old songs and hear the traditional ones too. Even if it just exposes this music to others who havn't ever heard it, isn't that good? I just love the song with the people walking to the water, to me its just beautiful.
And aren't those interpretations just artists putting their own creative spin on things?
I understand your point, but I guess I am also glad that it has come to me in this way, which is better than it not ever coming to me at all.
Kelli
In a message dated 11/15/02 1:59:59 AM, abtleo@... writes:
<< But if you can only play things that you've heard (that somebody else has
already played), then you miss something, too. >>
But the written music is something someone has alread played too, just
notated differently.
Maybe it's more like the difference between a storyteller learning stories
from other story-tellers (the old-timey way of ancient cultures) and learning
some (or all) from books.
The ballads I know which I'm actually in the business of passing on are two I
learned from the repeated singing (from weekly get-togethers, years ago) of a
woman who is Jean Ritchie's cousin. I have two songs from her, and dozens
from other sources. I brought those others back to sound-life, but they
had already been "preserved" in books or on recordings and didn't really need
me (in a way of thinking).
Writing them down preserves and also impedes a traditional song. The written
version starts to take precedence over variety of performance. Recordings,
same. (Thinking of traditional forms.) Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=233351.2658116.4039490.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1261185/R=0/id=flashurl/*https://www.gotomypc.com/tr/yh/grp/300_01F/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/expert_city/093002_weather300x250_01f.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=233351.2658116.4039490.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1261185/R=1/id=altimgurl/*https://www.gotomypc.com/tr/yh/grp/300_01F/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/expert_city/093002_weather300x250_map.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
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don't know why it did that?
Kelli
Kelli Traaseth <kellitraas@...> wrote:
SandraDodd@... wrote:
*Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.*
I don't know, I guess for me, I have the CD, I've really enjoyed it, because I am not familiar with that music. And then it has opened my mind to different kinds. I want to look into those old songs and hear the traditional ones too. Even if it just exposes this music to others who havn't ever heard it, isn't that good? I just love the song with the people walking to the water, to me its just beautiful.
And aren't those interpretations just artists putting their own creative spin on things?
I understand your point, but I guess I am also glad that it has come to me in this way, which is better than it not ever coming to me at all.
Kelli
In a message dated 11/15/02 1:59:59 AM, abtleo@... writes:
<< But if you can only play things that you've heard (that somebody else has
already played), then you miss something, too. >>
But the written music is something someone has alread played too, just
notated differently.
Maybe it's more like the difference between a storyteller learning stories
from other story-tellers (the old-timey way of ancient cultures) and learning
some (or all) from books.
The ballads I know which I'm actually in the business of passing on are two I
learned from the repeated singing (from weekly get-togethers, years ago) of a
woman who is Jean Ritchie's cousin. I have two songs from her, and dozens
from other sources. I brought those others back to sound-life, but they
had already been "preserved" in books or on recordings and didn't really need
me (in a way of thinking).
Writing them down preserves and also impedes a traditional song. The written
version starts to take precedence over variety of performance. Recordings,
same. (Thinking of traditional forms.) Some of the performances on O
Brother, Where Art Thou? are disturbing to me, because they could have
easily honored long-traditional lyrics or tunes, and they played artsy with
some of them. So there will be millions of kids Kirby's age and Marty's age
who heard it "wrong" (heavy on the qualifying quotations) repeatedly, and
will think a better version is wrong.
Sandra
Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
var lrec_target="_top";var lrec_URL = new Array();lrec_URL[1] = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=233351.2658116.4039490.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1261185/R=0/id=flashurl/*https://www.gotomypc.com/tr/yh/grp/300_01F/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl";var link="javascript:LRECopenWindow(1)";var lrec_flashfile = 'http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/expert_city/093002_weather300x250_01f.swf?clickTAG='+link+'';var lrec_altURL = "http://rd.yahoo.com/M=233351.2658116.4039490.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705081972:HM/A=1261185/R=1/id=altimgurl/*https://www.gotomypc.com/tr/yh/grp/300_01F/g22lp?Target=mm/g22lp.tmpl";var lrec_altimg = "http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/1-/flash/expert_city/093002_weather300x250_map.gif";var lrec_width = 300;var lrec_height = 250;
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
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---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/15/02 9:50:46 AM, kellitraas@... writes:
<< Even if it just exposes this music to others who havn't ever heard it,
isn't that good? I just love the song with the people walking to the water,
to me its just beautiful. >>
Sure, I suppose. Kirby went ape-crazy for that music, and I said "I know
that stuff." He liked me better, for a while. <g>
Walking to the water...
The song is Down TO the river to pray, not "down IN the river..." and it
makes a difference. Maybe only to me. <bwg>
<<And aren't those interpretations just artists putting their own creative
spin on things?>>
Sure.
I like (and collect, just kinda casually) versions of the traditional piece
of art of the guardian angel and the children on the bridge. It's not often
JUST the same, but that's one piece that has been passed on for a long time,
painters making them as gifts for their children, or relatives, and making
the kids look like particular kids, or whatever. The angel changes. The
bridge changes. The background changes. But there is such a far as would be
TOO far from being still "it," still being the identifying motif.
Same with folk music. Yes, there's a range of acceptable variation, but
there's also an out-of-bounds.
<<I understand your point, but I guess I am also glad that it has come to me
in this way, which is better than it not ever coming to me at all.>>
I agree, but still wish they had taken a moment in those meetings to say
"This will be some people's first introduction to this old-timey music.
Since we love it ourselves, don't we want to make it a priority that they get
the best possible samples?"
Sandra
<< Even if it just exposes this music to others who havn't ever heard it,
isn't that good? I just love the song with the people walking to the water,
to me its just beautiful. >>
Sure, I suppose. Kirby went ape-crazy for that music, and I said "I know
that stuff." He liked me better, for a while. <g>
Walking to the water...
The song is Down TO the river to pray, not "down IN the river..." and it
makes a difference. Maybe only to me. <bwg>
<<And aren't those interpretations just artists putting their own creative
spin on things?>>
Sure.
I like (and collect, just kinda casually) versions of the traditional piece
of art of the guardian angel and the children on the bridge. It's not often
JUST the same, but that's one piece that has been passed on for a long time,
painters making them as gifts for their children, or relatives, and making
the kids look like particular kids, or whatever. The angel changes. The
bridge changes. The background changes. But there is such a far as would be
TOO far from being still "it," still being the identifying motif.
Same with folk music. Yes, there's a range of acceptable variation, but
there's also an out-of-bounds.
<<I understand your point, but I guess I am also glad that it has come to me
in this way, which is better than it not ever coming to me at all.>>
I agree, but still wish they had taken a moment in those meetings to say
"This will be some people's first introduction to this old-timey music.
Since we love it ourselves, don't we want to make it a priority that they get
the best possible samples?"
Sandra
[email protected]
We also love the soundtrack to "O Brother Where Art Thou?". Along with the
movie, which we all (kids included) thought was hillarious! The kids sing
along with all the songs. My favorite ones on the album are of Allison Crause
(sp?). I love the traditional way she sings and plays the violin (fiddle). We
(dh and I both) come from very musical families. My dh more so however, his
sister has one of the most beautiful voices the world would ever hear. Only
she hasn't shared her gift with the rest of the world (which we all feel that
she is letting it down, by not sharing). Our daughter Caila (11 1/2) loves to
sing. She will sing just about every chance she gets. She also sings very
well for her age, not just saying that because I am her proud mama. My
children listen to all kinds of music, from just about anything you can think
of. Some of it I can't stand, but will not keep it from my children (unless
of course I disapprove of what the lyrics are). I want my kids to have the
same thrill of hearing a new song from someone they really like, or hearing
some new type of music they have never heard before. We all share in the joy
of music. We are thinking about either buying or renting some instruments for
them to learn to play. Even if they don't stick with it, at least they tried
something new.
Shellie, third year homeschooler, thinking about unschooling......kind of
scared of it though. However, sadly my dd wants to go to jr high for 7th
grade....dh wants me to let her, I said ok. But felt pressured to do so. I
know that I should allow her the freedom to try it, but I am scared of all
the things that are going on in ele., jr high, and highschool.
movie, which we all (kids included) thought was hillarious! The kids sing
along with all the songs. My favorite ones on the album are of Allison Crause
(sp?). I love the traditional way she sings and plays the violin (fiddle). We
(dh and I both) come from very musical families. My dh more so however, his
sister has one of the most beautiful voices the world would ever hear. Only
she hasn't shared her gift with the rest of the world (which we all feel that
she is letting it down, by not sharing). Our daughter Caila (11 1/2) loves to
sing. She will sing just about every chance she gets. She also sings very
well for her age, not just saying that because I am her proud mama. My
children listen to all kinds of music, from just about anything you can think
of. Some of it I can't stand, but will not keep it from my children (unless
of course I disapprove of what the lyrics are). I want my kids to have the
same thrill of hearing a new song from someone they really like, or hearing
some new type of music they have never heard before. We all share in the joy
of music. We are thinking about either buying or renting some instruments for
them to learn to play. Even if they don't stick with it, at least they tried
something new.
Shellie, third year homeschooler, thinking about unschooling......kind of
scared of it though. However, sadly my dd wants to go to jr high for 7th
grade....dh wants me to let her, I said ok. But felt pressured to do so. I
know that I should allow her the freedom to try it, but I am scared of all
the things that are going on in ele., jr high, and highschool.
[email protected]
I agree with Sandra, they really should have put in the original version if
they wanted to capture the "feeling".
Shellie
they wanted to capture the "feeling".
Shellie
Alan & Brenda Leonard
11/16/02 03:35:
Play anything that's lying around. Hymns, songs, musicals, whatever. But
if you feel the need for "proper" unaccompanied cello music, I have a pile
about a foot high. Email me off list sometime and tell me what you like,
and I can make some suggestions. There really is scads of stuff, and a fair
amount of it is really nice without being stunningly hard.
brenda
> I findTia,
> with both cello and horn that the only time I practice is when I've got
> something coming up, a chamber group or orchestra rehearsal or whatever.
> Maybe it's because there's very little music written for either instrument
> *alone*. I could be working on solo accompanied music. I have a friend who
> plays piano really well. But I just don't.
Play anything that's lying around. Hymns, songs, musicals, whatever. But
if you feel the need for "proper" unaccompanied cello music, I have a pile
about a foot high. Email me off list sometime and tell me what you like,
and I can make some suggestions. There really is scads of stuff, and a fair
amount of it is really nice without being stunningly hard.
brenda
Tia Leschke
>fair
> Play anything that's lying around. Hymns, songs, musicals, whatever. But
> if you feel the need for "proper" unaccompanied cello music, I have a pile
> about a foot high. Email me off list sometime and tell me what you like,
> and I can make some suggestions. There really is scads of stuff, and a
> amount of it is really nice without being stunningly hard.Ok, I'll take you up on it. Thanks. The only stuff I know about is the
Bach Suites. I like baroque, classic, romantic, most anything but the
really weird modern stuff. Unfortunately, I haven't gotten comfortable with
tenor clef yet, and that leaves out a lot. And while I can read treble clef
just fine, I have trouble playing much up that high on the cello. Bring on
the suggestions!
Tia