Kolleen

>gruvystarchild wrote:
>I think it's interesting how different people construe things as rude
>just because their ideas are called into question.


This seems to be the main crux of what a LOT of email lists go through.
What appears to be rudeness is (as someone stated but I lost the post)
the voicing of a strongly held opinion on unschooling (not observations
of a personality, race, religion - thats different).

For example (its a bit long, but please bear with me) I was once on a
parenting list for 'Spiritual' children. When someone asked for help with
an ongoing situation with their child and her teacher.

Of course, I responded with the idea of homeschooling or sending her
child to a democratic school where the child is respected.

Another response was someone saying something about a jar of 'coins' for
a goodie jar and to let the child get a coin for their behaviour and it
works just great.

Well, I responded about bribery, Skinnerism does work - but at what cost,
and quoted Alfie Kohn in Punished by Rewards.

Apparently, this unmoderated list *smile* member responded that 'well you
have to realize that its not for all kids' blah blah blah. So I banged
out my quick response in the mode I was in. Which was 'removed from
emotion' kind of mode. You know.. different styles depending on where
your head is at the moment.

The 'coin' lady responded with something about 'You MUST understand that
we don't beleive in bribery but this method is working great blah blah
blah and that of course we are DIPLOMATIC with our child'. (She totally
misread/understood DEMOCRATIC, and what it means to allow children
choices)

The list owner then responded about how I was so rude etc. So I explained
that I was bringing up discussion and that my posting style, without all
that 'love' 'bless you' stuff, and that I would gladly leave the list
instead of getting into any kind of debate about rudeness.

Quite a few people thanked me for the info.

What I'm driving at is that these two people, listowner and personal
friend, found their parenting beleifs to be in question by my strong
opinion on how to respect children. It wasn't rudeness, it was how it
affects their belief system.

If their beleifs were strong in their head, and they felt what they were
doing was right, they would not have read any rudenes at all. They would
of read a very strong differing opinion.

We all have our hot buttons. Geez, I know I have quite a few. And if we
need to coddle eachothers, then we will definately not move forward in
our discussions.

regards,
kolleen

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/26/2002 12:47:13 AM Eastern Standard Time,
Kolleen@... writes:

<<
The list owner then responded about how I was so rude etc. So I explained
that I was bringing up discussion and that my posting style, without all
that 'love' 'bless you' stuff, and that I would gladly leave the list
instead of getting into any kind of debate about rudeness.
>>

Your whole post was thought provoking. I didn't know which part to clip! It
reminds me of one of my favorite quotes:

"Tell people something they know already and they will thank you for it. Tell
them something new and they will hate you for it." George Monbiot
http://monbiot.com/

Laura

Angela

Kolleen wrote:
If their beleifs were strong in their head, and they felt what they were
doing was right, they would not have read any rudenes at all. They would
of read a very strong differing opinion.regards,
kolleen

This is so true Kolleen!! Not only would they not read it as rude, but they
would not read what you are saying as a criticism of them. I am sad to say,
I even lost a friend this way. I was over-enthusiastic about unschooling
and talked about it a lot. She was not at all confident in her choice to
send her kids to school and she just couldn't handle the way she questioned
herself after I left. Knowing what I know now, I am not sure I would change
anything about our exchanges. I really have to have friends that accept me
for me and not just because I agree with them. I can handle it when other
people find different paths that work for them and I am not judgmental of
this. However, I love to share what works for us with my friends. And, I
love to have them share what works for them....that is how we learn and grow
from each other.
Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...

My Unschooling Page!
http://www.geocities.com/autonomousangela

"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -
William Butler Yeats






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

gruvystarchild

--- I think that was really well put Kolleen. I guess where I differ
from those that get offended when questioned, is that when I'm
questioned it makes me think. If it's a strongly held belief I am
being questioned on (like unschooling) I don't get offended, and I
find my arguements strong and well thought out....because it IS a
strongly held belief and I can easily defend my position on those
issues.
If I'm questioning myself at all, or the other persons arguements
hold water, then it makes me think. And ultimately I've changed a LOT
from those type of discussions where my view didn't hold water.
I notice a feeling of "ownership" by certain people at this board.
Bridget said something like "I've finally gotten this list where I
want it" (forgive me if that's not accurate, I didn't go back to
look), and I am very confused by those type of statements.
I thought the Hegener's owned this list.
I also thought it was a public board, where anyone can state opinions
(I didn't do it in a nasty way, but have now been accused of that),
and not get kicked off!!
If this is a closed society, where differing opinions are not
welcome, then it should be a private board, not public.
I find posts with differing opinions, well stated, food for thought.
I enjoy thought provoking conversation. Unfortunately it seems that
isn't welcome in some people's eyes.
Which is why this list continues to have problems.
When a list is regularly "outing" people that don't say exactly what
you want to hear, that is a problem.
Outing people that are regular contributors to HEM and
unschooling.com even!!!! Amazing.
I wish I could understand what is so offensive about someone
questioning the words you use. I don't remember saying anything
dirogatory to the person I questioned. If I attacked a strongly held
belief then it should be easy enough to explain it and stand your
ground, right?
If not, then we could discuss it and seek further understanding.
Either way, there shouldn't be this ugliness shown to any dissenters.
Ren





In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Kolleen <Kolleen@m...> wrote:
> >gruvystarchild wrote:
> >I think it's interesting how different people construe things as
rude
> >just because their ideas are called into question.
>
>
> This seems to be the main crux of what a LOT of email lists go
through.
> What appears to be rudeness is (as someone stated but I lost the
post)
> the voicing of a strongly held opinion on unschooling (not
observations
> of a personality, race, religion - thats different).
>
> For example (its a bit long, but please bear with me) I was once on
a
> parenting list for 'Spiritual' children. When someone asked for
help with
> an ongoing situation with their child and her teacher.
>
> Of course, I responded with the idea of homeschooling or sending
her
> child to a democratic school where the child is respected.
>
> Another response was someone saying something about a jar
of 'coins' for
> a goodie jar and to let the child get a coin for their behaviour
and it
> works just great.
>
> Well, I responded about bribery, Skinnerism does work - but at what
cost,
> and quoted Alfie Kohn in Punished by Rewards.
>
> Apparently, this unmoderated list *smile* member responded
that 'well you
> have to realize that its not for all kids' blah blah blah. So I
banged
> out my quick response in the mode I was in. Which was 'removed from
> emotion' kind of mode. You know.. different styles depending on
where
> your head is at the moment.
>
> The 'coin' lady responded with something about 'You MUST understand
that
> we don't beleive in bribery but this method is working great blah
blah
> blah and that of course we are DIPLOMATIC with our child'. (She
totally
> misread/understood DEMOCRATIC, and what it means to allow children
> choices)
>
> The list owner then responded about how I was so rude etc. So I
explained
> that I was bringing up discussion and that my posting style,
without all
> that 'love' 'bless you' stuff, and that I would gladly leave the
list
> instead of getting into any kind of debate about rudeness.
>
> Quite a few people thanked me for the info.
>
> What I'm driving at is that these two people, listowner and
personal
> friend, found their parenting beleifs to be in question by my
strong
> opinion on how to respect children. It wasn't rudeness, it was how
it
> affects their belief system.
>
> If their beleifs were strong in their head, and they felt what they
were
> doing was right, they would not have read any rudenes at all. They
would
> of read a very strong differing opinion.
>
> We all have our hot buttons. Geez, I know I have quite a few. And
if we
> need to coddle eachothers, then we will definately not move forward
in
> our discussions.
>
> regards,
> kolleen

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@c...>
wrote:

> Bridget said something like "I've finally gotten this list where I
> want it" (forgive me if that's not accurate, I didn't go back to
> look), and I am very confused by those type of statements.
> I thought the Hegener's owned this list.

No and I resent the implication that I feel that way.

Just so everyone is VERY CLEAR on this point here is what I actually
SAID:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A little while ago I wrote a post that hasn't shown up yet. It was
about how far the list has come and how I am trying to get past the
things that were said to me here in the past six months. There has
been great progress made here, but obviously I am not the only one
who still feels scars.

Bridget
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And I said in the post that took forever to get through:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm trying to word this very carefully so bear with me.
I think that this list has come a long way in just a few months
toward becoming accepting of others. Less than six month ago, anyone
who said that some children might need more limits than others was
jumped on in a big way and told that they just weren't unschooling
enough or it would work. A lot of the problems stemmed from a rigid
description of unschooling.
Anyway, I am trying very hard to let go of certain things that were
said to me then because the climate here is obviously very different
now. But I still find it difficult and just wanted you to know that,
so if I sound defensive, you can understand a little bit where it
comes from.

Bridget

Groundhoggirl

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "gruvystarchild" <starsuncloud@c...>
> wrote:
>
>> Bridget said something like "I've finally gotten this list where I
>> want it" (forgive me if that's not accurate, I didn't go back to
>> look), and I am very confused by those type of statements.
>> I thought the Hegener's owned this list.
=============================
If you're going to quote someone, you really should go back and look to
see if you've got it right.

Mimi
===========================

Bridget wrote:
>
> No and I resent the implication that I feel that way.
>
> Just so everyone is VERY CLEAR on this point here is what I actually
> SAID:
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> A little while ago I wrote a post that hasn't shown up yet. It was
> about how far the list has come and how I am trying to get past the
> things that were said to me here in the past six months. There has
> been great progress made here, but obviously I am not the only one
> who still feels scars.
>
> Bridget
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> And I said in the post that took forever to get through:
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> I'm trying to word this very carefully so bear with me.
> I think that this list has come a long way in just a few months
> toward becoming accepting of others. Less than six month ago, anyone
> who said that some children might need more limits than others was
> jumped on in a big way and told that they just weren't unschooling
> enough or it would work. A lot of the problems stemmed from a rigid
> description of unschooling.
> Anyway, I am trying very hard to let go of certain things that were
> said to me then because the climate here is obviously very different
> now. But I still find it difficult and just wanted you to know that,
> so if I sound defensive, you can understand a little bit where it
> comes from.
>
> Bridget
>
>
>
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah Carothers

On Sat, 26 Jan 2002 15:55:39 -0000, rumpleteasermom wrote:
>
>No and I resent the implication that I feel that way.
>

Bridget,
No need to clarify or re-state your posts. You are being singled out (again) by a small group of people and I hope you don't take the bait. I did but I'm quickly realizing that to ignore them would be much better than to bother defending my position/statements.
Easier said than done, I know... especially when they are making things up and/or taking them out of context.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/26/2002


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Sarah Carothers <puddles@t...> wrote:

>
> Bridget,
> No need to clarify or re-state your posts. You are being singled
out (again) by a small group of people and I hope you don't take the
bait. I did but I'm quickly realizing that to ignore them would be
much better than to bother defending my position/statements.
> Easier said than done, I know... especially when they are making
things up and/or taking them out of context.
> --
> Sarah Carothers, puddles@t... on 01/26/2002
>
>

Thank you. I just wanted to make sure that none of the newbies
thought I was trying to be queen or something and that was how that
post sounded.

BTW - How is your daughter doing?

Bridget