jakejosh9600

I am the mother of 5 AND 1 yr old boys. I've finally decided after
much research that unschooling is what I want to do with the
children, not that I haven't been doing it all along :) I've loved
being home with the boys and seeing my older son run and play and
pursue what interests him. The reason I'm in need of support right
now is because I've recieved alot of negative feedback about my
choice from family and friends. I'm secure in my decesion but it does
hurt sometimes. How do you deal with it? Thanks

Sarah Carothers

On Wed, 23 Jan 2002 02:33:53 -0000, jakejosh9600 wrote:
>I've recieved alot of negative
>feedback about my
>choice from family and friends. I'm secure in my
>decesion but it does
>hurt sometimes. How do you deal with it? Thanks
>

Hello! and welcome to the 'club' :-)
For me, I come to lists such as this one for like-minded support.
With the relatives, after trying to educate them about the wonderful
option of unschooling (and failing to do so), I don't bring it up and
we rarely talk about our kids' education at family gatherings because
after years of hurt feelings and ruined holidays, we've learned not
to talk :(. Sad, but true.
After a few solid attempts at trying to explain your choices to your
family, make a decision as to how you're going to deal with them and
then move on with or without their support. You will always have
other unschooling families on lists such as this that you can turn to
for support. Meanwhile, as your kids grow and blossom, with luck, the
relatives will one day change their minds...
Best of luck,
Sarah
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/22/2002



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Angela

I think that often people make their negative feedback based on incorrect
assumptions. Perhaps you could either give them a book to read on
unschooling or write a statement about what it means to you and what you
want for your sons. It is always easier to write something down and give it
to them to read than to publically defend your position to nay-sayers.
Good luck.

Angela in Maine
mailto:unschooling@...

My Unschooling Page!
http://www.geocities.com/autonomousangela

"Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire." -
William Butler Yeats





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

mom2spirited2

I know that can be rough. We didn't have too much trouble with that
because my son had some special issues and it was clear to everyone
we knew that school was not the right environment. But I have dealt
with this sort of thing with other issues in which I
am "unconventional" in some ways. Some key things that help for me
are:

1. finding support
2. don't bring it up if it's not necessary
3. be positive and confident
4. be clear that you made your choice based on what works best for
you--sometimes people are defensive because they feel judged by
homeschoolers, or they wish they could homeschool but feel they can't
for some reason
5. be matter-of-fact if people get pushy, something like "Thank you
for being concerned, but we are happy with our decision"

Renee

Puplinks: All About Dogs
http://www.puplinks.com

Computer Graphics Consulting
http://geocities.com/demetrius3d

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "jakejosh9600" <jake1096@m...> wrote:
> I am the mother of 5 AND 1 yr old boys. I've finally decided after
> much research that unschooling is what I want to do with the
> children, not that I haven't been doing it all along :) I've loved
> being home with the boys and seeing my older son run and play and
> pursue what interests him. The reason I'm in need of support right
> now is because I've recieved alot of negative feedback about my
> choice from family and friends. I'm secure in my decesion but it
does
> hurt sometimes. How do you deal with it? Thanks

Dawn Bennink

I have a 5 year old and 1 year old boy as well, and know just what you are
talking about. My husband's family is horrified at the idea of our
homeschooling, much less unschooling. They didn't like the idea of me
nursing past three months, letting the boys sleep with us as babies, and any
number of other parenting issues. (This from a family whose 6 year old son
is in therapy twice a week.) We politely listen to them and just let it go
as much as we can. I get upset, but after all these years I am learning to
let it go for my own sanity. My brother and his wife are vocal to mutual
acquaintances (not directly to us) that they think we are doing something
terribly wrong. Friends who wouldn't dream of counseling us on other issues
feel completely free to tell us that they think homeschooling, particularly
unschooling of course, is a dangerous thing. I've been treated to stories of
children in their teens who cannot count, read or write and will never become
productive members of society.

But you and I both know that we want what is best for our kids, and that if
they were truly falling behind, we would do something about it. We also know
that our children will be happier, healthier and likely more capable after
their unschooling experience than the children of these people who feel
perfectly comfortable criticizing our very personal parenting decisions.

Hang in there. Today I feel like iron. Tomorrow someone will cut me to the
quick. Either way, I will unschool and see the special light in the eyes of
my boys as they spend 18 consecutive days drawing, catching, watching,
reading about, and constructing clay & wooden models of ladybugs for no
reason but that it interests them. Deep cleansing breath!

Dawn
--
Dawn Bennink
homeschooling mom to Malcolm & Miles

"Never underestimate the inevitability of gradualness." - Anonymous

"If you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else you do well
matters very much." - Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis

"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school" -
George Bernard Shaw

Dawn Bennink

You know, I was hoping that nobody would see fit to take one sentence or word
out of what I wrote from my heart and pick at it. But, ok, here's my
response.

Surely a thinking person could allow that there might be a child or two out
there in the world who might not thrive as an unschooler, for one reason or
another. As a parent, I would want to be watchful for that failure to
thrive, just as I would want to be watchful for signs of a physical problem
that might develop with my child regardless of the fact that I have no
expectations that one might develop. Should I see a problem, I would adjust
our learning environment accordingly because my child's happiness and growth
is much more important to me than adherence to a teaching philosophy. To not
allow for this potentiality would make me as rigid and fanatical at my
child's expense as so many accuse unschoolers of being. If I did nothing, my
child might fall behind his potential and miss the joy of learning because I
insisted I must unschool at all costs.

I did not mean that if my son falls behind some arbitrary standard that he
needs to read at age 5, add three digit numbers at age 7, etc., I'd put him
on a curriculum immediately. How sad that this is what you apparently read
into my post. Congratulations. I now feel as judged in a group I had hoped
from whom I might find some support as I do by those who criticize my
parenting decisions.

Dawn


gruvystarchild wrote:

> -
> Dawn,
> I am just curious as to how an unschooling child could "fall behind"
> and what as an unschooling parent you would do about it?

gruvystarchild

-
Dawn,
I am just curious as to how an unschooling child could "fall behind"
and what as an unschooling parent you would do about it?
In unschooling there is no "ahead or behind"...that is the beauty of
it.
Kids can learn what they want WHEN they want....and when they're
ready.
If a child is perceived as "behind" because they don't read until age
11, that is meaningless in the unschool world. Because we trust that
our kids will learn what they need but also WHEN they're ready.
Ren







-- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Dawn Bennink <dbennink@n...> wrote:
> I have a 5 year old and 1 year old boy as well, and know just what
you are
> talking about. My husband's family is horrified at the idea of our
> homeschooling, much less unschooling. They didn't like the idea of
me
> nursing past three months, letting the boys sleep with us as
babies, and any
> number of other parenting issues. (This from a family whose 6 year
old son
> is in therapy twice a week.) We politely listen to them and just
let it go
> as much as we can. I get upset, but after all these years I am
learning to
> let it go for my own sanity. My brother and his wife are vocal to
mutual
> acquaintances (not directly to us) that they think we are doing
something
> terribly wrong. Friends who wouldn't dream of counseling us on
other issues
> feel completely free to tell us that they think homeschooling,
particularly
> unschooling of course, is a dangerous thing. I've been treated to
stories of
> children in their teens who cannot count, read or write and will
never become
> productive members of society.
>
> But you and I both know that we want what is best for our kids, and
that if
> they were truly falling behind, we would do something about it. We
also know
> that our children will be happier, healthier and likely more
capable after
> their unschooling experience than the children of these people who
feel
> perfectly comfortable criticizing our very personal parenting
decisions.
>
> Hang in there. Today I feel like iron. Tomorrow someone will cut
me to the
> quick. Either way, I will unschool and see the special light in
the eyes of
> my boys as they spend 18 consecutive days drawing, catching,
watching,
> reading about, and constructing clay & wooden models of ladybugs
for no
> reason but that it interests them. Deep cleansing breath!
>
> Dawn
> --
> Dawn Bennink
> homeschooling mom to Malcolm & Miles
>
> "Never underestimate the inevitability of gradualness." - Anonymous
>
> "If you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else
you do well
> matters very much." - Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis
>
> "The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in
school" -
> George Bernard Shaw

Leslie Moyer

+ You know, I was hoping that nobody would see fit to take one
+ sentence or word
+ out of what I wrote from my heart and pick at it.

Yea, that's always hard, huh? Email....far from a perfect form of
communication. Sometimes I struggle for hours on how to word particularly
sensitive posts and it's a shame....Lord knows I have other things I
*should* be doing. Once I spent 3 DAYS on a post--trying to express some
very delicate matters! I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt. I don't
remember the exact question asked of you, but to give the benefit of the
doubt maybe she/he was asking for clarification as opposed to judging your
words. I enjoyed your explanation.

+ Should I see a problem, I would adjust
+ our learning environment accordingly because my child's happiness
+ and growth
+ is much more important to me than adherence to a teaching
+ philosophy.

I really understand what you said here, Dawn. In fact, I struggled with
just such a situation myself about this time last year. In fact, I think
nearly the exact words came out of my mouth to homeschooling friends.
Ultimately, I found a way to understand my daughter and still hold true to
my philosophy, but it took a while. And I was very much willing to
sacrifice my *ideals* for the reality of what I was experiencing if
necessary.

Ultimately, like I said, I got it figured out....and since have come to feel
that unschooling *will* work with every child (barring certain physical or
emotional problems). But it just may look different from our expectations.
I did have to broaden my perspective quite a bit to be able to see this new
reality.

As I explained in an earlier post, I had be more proactive in my daughter's
life/education because she really needed me to be--she asked for my
involvement. Indirectly at first, but ultimately in a very direct plea.

Like I said, I do believe that unschooling will work with every child
(exceptions previously noted). But I don't think that's in contradiction
with your comments about adjusting your learning environment.

--Leslie Moyer

Lynda

I've read Ren's post from top to bottom and bottom to top and can't find any
picking apart OR any mention of curriculum.

From an unschooling stand point, there wouldn't be any "falling behind" and
the writer was simply curious as to how you define "falling behind" and what
your response would be.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dawn Bennink" <dbennink@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: New and in need of support :)


> You know, I was hoping that nobody would see fit to take one sentence or
word
> out of what I wrote from my heart and pick at it. But, ok, here's my
> response.
>
> Surely a thinking person could allow that there might be a child or two
out
> there in the world who might not thrive as an unschooler, for one reason
or
> another. As a parent, I would want to be watchful for that failure to
> thrive, just as I would want to be watchful for signs of a physical
problem
> that might develop with my child regardless of the fact that I have no
> expectations that one might develop. Should I see a problem, I would
adjust
> our learning environment accordingly because my child's happiness and
growth
> is much more important to me than adherence to a teaching philosophy. To
not
> allow for this potentiality would make me as rigid and fanatical at my
> child's expense as so many accuse unschoolers of being. If I did nothing,
my
> child might fall behind his potential and miss the joy of learning because
I
> insisted I must unschool at all costs.
>
> I did not mean that if my son falls behind some arbitrary standard that he
> needs to read at age 5, add three digit numbers at age 7, etc., I'd put
him
> on a curriculum immediately. How sad that this is what you apparently
read
> into my post. Congratulations. I now feel as judged in a group I had
hoped
> from whom I might find some support as I do by those who criticize my
> parenting decisions.
>
> Dawn
>
>
> gruvystarchild wrote:
>
> > -
> > Dawn,
> > I am just curious as to how an unschooling child could "fall behind"
> > and what as an unschooling parent you would do about it?
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Fetteroll

on 1/23/02 7:56 PM, Dawn Bennink at dbennink@... wrote:

> Surely a thinking person could allow that there might be a child or two out
> there in the world who might not thrive as an unschooler, for one reason or
> another.

It's going to depend how someone defines unschooling, I think! If someone
defines unschooling as parental hands off learning, then, yes, some kids
aren't going to thrive. But if we see it as *helping* our kids explore their
worlds, then we can be their resource for what they need.

My daughter has a great thirst for learning about things, but she has no
desire to wander the library or study the TV Guide so I bring stuff to her
so she can pick and choose. Most kids will want someone accompanying them on
their journey. How much running off and exploring on their own they want to
do is going to depend on the child. It's also going to depend on the home
environment. An athletic, need to learn from movement child in a sedentary,
need to learn from books family is going to feel frustrated. But is that a
failure of unschooling or a failure of the parents for not being aware
enough that there are ways to learn that are as valid as reading?

And though children can learn perfectly fine from video games and
television, if they don't have a choice of other things that are equally
enticing, their learning is going to be limited. But that's not the fault of
unschooling either.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah Carothers

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 00:27:02 -0600, Leslie Moyer wrote:
>
>Like I said, I do believe that unschooling will work
>with every child
>(exceptions previously noted). But I don't think
>that's in contradiction
>with your comments about adjusting your learning
>environment.
>
>--Leslie Moyer

We had an earlier thread before you (Leslie & Dawn) came to the list
and it was about 'do you help a child who isn't reading yet is
struggling *to* read and *wants* to?'
I believe we came to the same conclusion that Dawn was describing. If
you see your child needing and wanting something, you do whatever you
can to make it happen.
I understood your post, Dawn and also appreciated your response to
clarify your position. Thanks!
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/24/2002



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Dawn Bennink <dbennink@n...> wrote:
> I've been treated to stories of
> children in their teens who cannot count, read or write and will
never become
> productive members of society.

So tell them all about my friend the landscaper who has a high school
diploma from a public school and CAN'T READ. Going to school in not
a guarantee that you will actually get an education!

Bridget

rumpleteasermom

Dawn,

This was a great response and don't let the few who pick drive you
away.

Yes, I understand perfectly what you are saying. I happen to HAVE
one of those rare beasts - a child who needs more. More guidance,
more help overcoming his problems, just plain more. I love him
dearly and I recognized that our unschooling lifestyle was going
sadly awry with him. That's why I let my mom take him a few hours
everyday when she offered. I can't be that consistent, it is not in
my nature but it was what he needed. Thank gaia mom lives next
door!

One very important thing to remember though is that what works so
well for him would be a disaster with my other two. They NEED to be
learning and living on their own terms at their own pace. Pushing
Wyndham makes him go forward, pushing them makes them push back. The
glory of unschooling is that the options are there. I don't
particularly care if you don't want to call Wyndham an unschooler.
He mostly isn't by the definition that was prevalent here. But the
goal with him is to help him get to the point where he can be
independent.

I think the most important thing is to find what works for YOU and do
it. Don't let someone make you feel insecure because YOUR way is
different from THEIR way.

Bridget



--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Dawn Bennink <dbennink@n...> wrote:

> I did not mean that if my son falls behind some arbitrary standard
that he
> needs to read at age 5, add three digit numbers at age 7, etc., I'd
put him
> on a curriculum immediately. How sad that this is what you
apparently read
> into my post. Congratulations. I now feel as judged in a group I
had hoped
> from whom I might find some support as I do by those who criticize
my
> parenting decisions.
>
> Dawn
>
>

Sarah Carothers

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002 15:54:15 -0000, rumpleteasermom wrote:
> The
>glory of unschooling is that the options are there.
>I don't
>particularly care if you don't want to call Wyndham
>an unschooler.
>He mostly isn't by the definition that was prevalent
>here. But the
>goal with him is to help him get to the point where
>he can be
>independent.
>
>I think the most important thing is to find what
>works for YOU and do
>it. Don't let someone make you feel insecure
>because YOUR way is
>different from THEIR way.
>
>Bridget
>

Very well said, Bridget. We seem to always get into sticky ground
when trying to define unschooling. Perhaps it is better if we just
let each individual dictate what the definition is.
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/24/2002



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

kalima

Dawn,

What you have written makes total sense to me. :0) I find it hard to stick to
one teaching philosophy for the reason that each person is so different. While
total unstructured time is wonderful. I have one child who needs some "seat
work" as I am hearing it called lately. She looks for it each morning and is
upset if she doesn't have it and can't break into her own free time without it.
I think it is like warm up for her brain or something. *L*

My thing, is that I have so much problems with labels. I honestly don't fit
into one little nice neat box. I suppose if I did it would make my life easier
but well it just doesn't work that way. I think I would be bored being in one
box.

I am starting to see homeschooling/unschooling like feeding a baby. (I know
strange but stick with me for a minute here) We either breast fed totally,
bottle-fed totally or did a little of both. I am sure we have all seen heated
arguments about this online and maybe even in a play group. But the most
important thing was to get the child fed right? Be it by bottle or breast. Well
I see it the same way. All I want is my children to be happy and and that hunger
to learn fed. Be it by a small amount of structure like my 9 year old needs or
total freedom like my 10 and 7 year olds thrive well in or a tad of both like
my 13 year old.

I hope I am making sense that I understand you. *L* Maybe I should have
written.. I get you (((hug)).

Shelly
Mom to 5

Leslie Moyer

+ I am starting to see homeschooling/unschooling like feeding a
+ baby. (I know
+ strange but stick with me for a minute here) We either breast fed totally,
+ bottle-fed totally or did a little of both. I am sure we have
+ all seen heated
+ arguments about this online and maybe even in a play group. But the most
+ important thing was to get the child fed right? Be it by bottle
+ or breast. Well
+ I see it the same way.

Shelly,

As a breastfeeding counselor for many years I'm going to add to this
analogy. Studies are very clear that breastfeeding is best for babies. One
can make arguments about whether it is best for Mom or not, but there's no
disagreement--by anyone--that it is best for babies. Studies have also
shown that when a baby is totally breastfed, the benefits are greatest.
When even a little formula is added, the benefits of the breastmilk they
*are* getting is reduced *greatly*. The formula changes the intestinal
flora in the baby and makes it harder for the breast milk to be metabolized
in the same way. It's still better for baby, but not nearly as good as
fully breastfeeding.

Well....I think the same is true of unschooling. If you add a "little seat
work", it doesn't just change that part of the day, but it changes the whole
environment of the learning to change the way learning is processed for the
rest of the day. It changes the relationship between mother and child and
between child and learning.

Now, I'm not going to say it must be "either-or" to be "best" for any
particular family....but it does change the relationship so that it is
*different* than if you were totally unschooling.

I'm also not saying that what you're doing is or isn't unschooling. I am
not in your home, I don't know you or your children or see the bigger
picture of your relationship and don't want to define what you do anyway.
I'm just adding to your analogy with one of my own--using the most common
definition of "seat work" that I know....which may or may not resemble what
you do. I can see that something like you're describing could very well BE
unschooling in the way that I think of it....but the way I hear most
homeschoolers using the term wouldn't look much like unschooling.

No judgements--just my .02

--Leslie Moyer

kalima

On of my husband's friends earned his h.s diploma and I never knew for years
he couldnt read untill we moved and he helped us. He was putting boxes
clearly marked "Kitchen" in my bedroom. When asked he confessed and i felt
so bad. My mother in law is now married to a 60 something year old man who
is smart as a whip but can't read even a label in a grocery store. She went
on vacation and came home to find the poor guy eating dog food as he thought
it was beef stew in a can. And this guy had is own consturction company.
That one has tossed me for a loop for years. Guess he had (and still does)
lots of people to read for him.

I don't want this for my kids I have to say but it amazes me the
differences in people who do have h.s diploma and those who don't and the
things they have done with their lives. Keeps me thinking.

Shelly
Mom to 5

rumpleteasermom wrote:

> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Dawn Bennink <dbennink@n...> wrote:
> > I've been treated to stories of
> > children in their teens who cannot count, read or write and will
> never become
> > productive members of society.
>
> So tell them all about my friend the landscaper who has a high school
> diploma from a public school and CAN'T READ. Going to school in not
> a guarantee that you will actually get an education!
>
> Bridget
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Tia Leschke

>I think that often people make their negative feedback based on incorrect
>assumptions. Perhaps you could either give them a book to read on
>unschooling or write a statement about what it means to you and what you
>want for your sons. It is always easier to write something down and give it
>to them to read than to publically defend your position to nay-sayers.

Also, sometimes you have to tell nay-sayers that you'll be glad to discuss
the issue *after* they've educated themselves by reading some specific
books or articles that you name. Other nay-sayers just have to be told
that you are the one making the choices for your family.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Tia Leschke

> I've been treated to stories of
>children in their teens who cannot count, read or write and will never become
>productive members of society.

I'd sure like to meet these unschooled teens and adults who have done so
badly. I keep hearing about them, but I've never met any. <g>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Tia Leschke

>Ultimately, like I said, I got it figured out....and since have come to feel
>that unschooling *will* work with every child (barring certain physical or
>emotional problems). But it just may look different from our expectations.
>I did have to broaden my perspective quite a bit to be able to see this new
>reality.

That's for sure. I sure looks different in this house from what I was
expecting. I definitely did not get the poster boy for
unschooling. <g> But once I gave myself time to grieve the child I didn't
get, I've been able to look at him and see his strengths. Now I'm really
happy with the kid I got, though I sometimes get tired of reassuring people
that he *will* do fine, that he *is* doing fine. (He's 14 and temporarily
working full time for dh. He's doing piece work and averaging over $150/day.)
Tia


No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Tia Leschke

>An athletic, need to learn from movement child in a sedentary,
>need to learn from books family is going to feel frustrated. But is that a
>failure of unschooling or a failure of the parents for not being aware
>enough that there are ways to learn that are as valid as reading?

Or being aware of it but having a hard time finding ways to help with that
learning style.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Pat Cald...

Dawn,

I'm sorry posting your views to this list left you feeling a little picked on. I look at wording that seems a little harsh or judgmental as just being someone else's way of expressing their own opinion. In reality, we don't know each other personally so there can be no personal attacks. Last week Leslie said one of my comments was "lame". Not the comment actually but the act of making excuses. Did I have a problem with that. At first I read that and thought, "ok then", but then I removed myself personally from the situation and tried to listen to what she was saying, as if she were responding to someone else's post and I agreed with her. I come to this list to be with people of like minds and feel support and there is a lot of that. I also am here to learn and bounce my ideas off of the listers. I enjoyed your post and hope you will not stop posting.

I wish I had more time to write but I got to run. I hope this makes sense to me when I come back tonight and read over it.

Pat
----- Original Message -----
From: Dawn Bennink
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2002 7:56 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: New and in need of support :)


You know, I was hoping that nobody would see fit to take one sentence or word
out of what I wrote from my heart and pick at it. But, ok, here's my
response.

Surely a thinking person could allow that there might be a child or two out
there in the world who might not thrive as an unschooler, for one reason or
another. As a parent, I would want to be watchful for that failure to
thrive, just as I would want to be watchful for signs of a physical problem
that might develop with my child regardless of the fact that I have no
expectations that one might develop. Should I see a problem, I would adjust
our learning environment accordingly because my child's happiness and growth
is much more important to me than adherence to a teaching philosophy. To not
allow for this potentiality would make me as rigid and fanatical at my
child's expense as so many accuse unschoolers of being. If I did nothing, my
child might fall behind his potential and miss the joy of learning because I
insisted I must unschool at all costs.

I did not mean that if my son falls behind some arbitrary standard that he
needs to read at age 5, add three digit numbers at age 7, etc., I'd put him
on a curriculum immediately. How sad that this is what you apparently read
into my post. Congratulations. I now feel as judged in a group I had hoped
from whom I might find some support as I do by those who criticize my
parenting decisions.

Dawn


gruvystarchild wrote:

> -
> Dawn,
> I am just curious as to how an unschooling child could "fall behind"
> and what as an unschooling parent you would do about it?


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn Bennink

Leslie Moyer wrote:

> Like I said, I do believe that unschooling will work with every child
> (exceptions previously noted). But I don't think that's in contradiction
> with your comments about adjusting your learning environment.

Neither do I, Leslie.

And you are so right about email not conveying nuances. If you think your tone
is obvious, you are usually wrong. :o)

Dawn
--
Dawn Bennink
homeschooling mom to Malcolm & Miles

"Never underestimate the inevitability of gradualness." - Anonymous

"If you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else you do well
matters very much." - Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis

"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school" - George
Bernard Shaw

Dawn Bennink

rumpleteasermom wrote:

> So tell them all about my friend the landscaper who has a high school
> diploma from a public school and CAN'T READ. Going to school in not
> a guarantee that you will actually get an education!
>

Oh, amen to that. Note the third quote in my signature. Margaret Mead had a
similar quote, something to the effect that her grandmother wanted her to get
a good education so she kept her out of school.

Dawn
--
Dawn Bennink
homeschooling mom to Malcolm & Miles

"Never underestimate the inevitability of gradualness." - Anonymous

"If you bungle raising your children, I don't think whatever else you do well
matters very much." - Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis

"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school" -
George Bernard Shaw

Dawn Bennink

Thank you! I could not agree more.

Dawn

rumpleteasermom wrote:

> Dawn,
>
> This was a great response and don't let the few who pick drive you
> away.
>
> Yes, I understand perfectly what you are saying. I happen to HAVE
> one of those rare beasts - a child who needs more. More guidance,
> more help overcoming his problems, just plain more. I love him
> dearly and I recognized that our unschooling lifestyle was going
> sadly awry with him. That's why I let my mom take him a few hours
> everyday when she offered. I can't be that consistent, it is not in
> my nature but it was what he needed. Thank gaia mom lives next
> door!
>
> One very important thing to remember though is that what works so
> well for him would be a disaster with my other two. They NEED to be
> learning and living on their own terms at their own pace. Pushing
> Wyndham makes him go forward, pushing them makes them push back. The
> glory of unschooling is that the options are there. I don't
> particularly care if you don't want to call Wyndham an unschooler.
> He mostly isn't by the definition that was prevalent here. But the
> goal with him is to help him get to the point where he can be
> independent.
>
> I think the most important thing is to find what works for YOU and do
> it. Don't let someone make you feel insecure because YOUR way is
> different from THEIR way.
>
> Bridget

Dawn Bennink

Thanks, Shelly! I get the baby feeding analogy completely too. I got a lot of
grief about that too! LOL!

Dawn

kalima wrote:

> Dawn,
>
> What you have written makes total sense to me. :0) I find it hard to stick to
> one teaching philosophy for the reason that each person is so different. While
> total unstructured time is wonderful. I have one child who needs some "seat
> work" as I am hearing it called lately. She looks for it each morning and is
> upset if she doesn't have it and can't break into her own free time without it.
> I think it is like warm up for her brain or something. *L*
>
> My thing, is that I have so much problems with labels. I honestly don't fit
> into one little nice neat box. I suppose if I did it would make my life easier
> but well it just doesn't work that way. I think I would be bored being in one
> box.
>
> I am starting to see homeschooling/unschooling like feeding a baby. (I know
> strange but stick with me for a minute here) We either breast fed totally,
> bottle-fed totally or did a little of both. I am sure we have all seen heated
> arguments about this online and maybe even in a play group. But the most
> important thing was to get the child fed right? Be it by bottle or breast. Well
> I see it the same way. All I want is my children to be happy and and that hunger
> to learn fed. Be it by a small amount of structure like my 9 year old needs or
> total freedom like my 10 and 7 year olds thrive well in or a tad of both like
> my 13 year old.
>
> I hope I am making sense that I understand you. *L* Maybe I should have
> written.. I get you (((hug)).
>
> Shelly
> Mom to 5

Leslie Moyer

+ Last week Leslie said one of
+ my comments was "lame". Not the comment actually but the act of
+ making excuses. Did I have a problem with that. At first I read
+ that and thought, "ok then", but then I removed myself personally
+ from the situation and tried to listen to what she was saying, as
+ if she were responding to someone else's post and I agreed with
+ her.

Pat,

And I'm *so* glad you took it in that context!!!! :-) I think part of the
difference might be that you and I had built up at least a *little* rapport
prior to my brassy, sassy "lame" comment. I felt that you would accept it
from me without taking it too personally. But then worried and sent the
follow up about how you don't have to agree with me. :-) :-) It is almost
impossible be able to infer another's tone via email. I'm glad you gave me
the benefit of the doubt, Pat. Thanks.

Leslie Moyer

Pat Cald...

From: Leslie Moyer

+Pat,

+And I'm *so* glad you took it in that context!!!! :-) I think part of +the
+difference might be that you and I had built up at least a *little* +rapport
+prior to my brassy, sassy "lame" comment. I felt that you would accept +it
+from me without taking it too personally.<snip>

Actually Leslie, I think it has more to do with personality differences and maybe the fact that I am very receptive to others ideas at this point because I am new to homeschooling/unschooling. I may get to the point where I feel like I am more set in *my way* of unschooling and won't want your sassy brassy comments :-) At that point, I'll just figure you are really voicing your views for the new people on the list so they see different perspectives. It is always import to listen to what people have to say, even if we are thrown off by the way it is being said, at least I try to. I'm not talking about unsolicited advice. I'm talking about a situation like we have here where people are expressing their views.

Pat


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lorraine Goods

On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Leslie Moyer wrote:

> It is almost
> impossible be able to infer another's tone via email. I'm glad you gave me
> the benefit of the doubt, Pat. Thanks.

I wish you had given *me* the benefit of the doubt when I wrote several
weeks ago, about our TV exchange, that our discussion was turning into a
"tit for tat" argument. I never said that you were doing all the tit for
tatting, I was implicating myself in this as well. The subject matter --
to TV or not to TV -- really seemed to be
one of those things, like religion or politics, where it sometimes
seems best for folks to respectfully agree to disagree. Instead you sent me
a nasty email in which you called me petty and cursed at me. Hopefully you
can refrain from making that kind of personal attack in the future; I in
turn will continue to try and be civil in my reponses. I'm not trying to
start any kind of flame war; in fact I appreciate many of the comments
you've made on this list and have learned a lot since subbing a few weeks ago.

Best,
Lynn

rumpleteasermom

A little while ago I wrote a post that hasn't shown up yet. It was
about how far the list has come and how I am trying to get past the
things that were said to me here in the past six months. There has
been great progress made here, but obviously I am not the only one
who still feels scars.

Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Lorraine Goods <lg96@c...> wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, Leslie Moyer wrote:
>
> > It is almost
> > impossible be able to infer another's tone via email. I'm glad
you gave me
> > the benefit of the doubt, Pat. Thanks.
>
> I wish you had given *me* the benefit of the doubt when I wrote
several
> weeks ago, about our TV exchange, that our discussion was turning
into a
> "tit for tat" argument. I never said that you were doing all the
tit for
> tatting, I was implicating myself in this as well. The subject
matter --
> to TV or not to TV -- really seemed to be
> one of those things, like religion or politics, where it sometimes
> seems best for folks to respectfully agree to disagree. Instead you
sent me
> a nasty email in which you called me petty and cursed at me.
Hopefully you
> can refrain from making that kind of personal attack in the future;
I in
> turn will continue to try and be civil in my reponses. I'm not
trying to
> start any kind of flame war; in fact I appreciate many of the
comments
> you've made on this list and have learned a lot since subbing a few
weeks ago.
>
> Best,
> Lynn