Corina Crane

I believe I'm quoting Leslie Moyer below: (if not I appologize, it's hard to cut and paste with yahoo mail!)

>Not that learning *can't* be fun....of course it can.....but some of the times
>that I've witnessed my kids taking the greatest strides in their learning
>was when they were MAD or FRUSTRATED or PERPLEXED or BORED or EMBARRASSED.
>When the adult takes responsibility for "making it fun", the child is
>disenfranchised--their right to their own learning is usurped. Then
>the child's role in their education is once again relegated to the passive
>role---"entertain me"/"educate me".

>In the early part of this century, people spent FAR FAR less time in school
>than kids do now and learned much more than we do.

These 2 seperate thoughts caught my attention, because I've been mauling (sp?) over both recently. We have just recently started watching satelite tv. I am appalled at how *stupid* everything has gotten over the last few years!

It seems that every program has to be *fun*, *exciting*, *mysterious*, or something. Take Jepardy for instance. The questions have gotten way easier and they've added a "clue crew" to make the show more appealing???? When I turned it on the other night, a blond girl (no slight intended) comes on holding a yard sale sign and says something like "tonight we're going to a yard sale!" in her sweetest dumb blond voice (believe me I'm trying to phrase this right because I'm blond, but you know what I mean!)

Then we try to watch documentaries on Discovery or TLC or whatever. Most are alot of hype about nothing. All designed to *entertain* us. Is it not possible that some people out there are simply interested in things and like learning something new? We watched a show about Neanderthals ( a family favorite in our house) with my 3 sons aged 5, 7 and 11. They began talking about how the Neanderthals interbred with homeosapians (fasinating no?) Then the guy comes on and says "SEX, they we're having SEX, yes SEX (emphais his not mine)! Was that necessary to keep me watching?

I have commented to my husband that we keep getting dumber and dumber. People knew way more about more in general before. Now we have to change the questions on Jepardy, and make documentaries full of nothing. Where will we be 50 years from now?

Just recently, we purchased a new trivial pursuit game (first in about 8 years). We couldn't believe how they dumbed down the questions there too!

Is the love of knowledge a dying thing? How can we stop it's demise?

Corina






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Corina Crane <corina_crane@y...>
wrote:

> I have commented to my husband that we keep getting dumber and
dumber. People knew way more about more in general before. Now we
have to change the questions on Jepardy, and make documentaries full
of nothing. Where will we be 50 years from now?
>
> Just recently, we purchased a new trivial pursuit game (first in
about 8 years). We couldn't believe how they dumbed down the
questions there too!
>
> Is the love of knowledge a dying thing? How can we stop it's
demise?
>
> Corina
>

I personally think this is a symptom of public school dependency. In
an effort ot make everyone conform, the system had to gear itself to
the 'lowest common denominator'. So now every child learns the same
stuff but it is so much less interesting stuff.
And think aboutit, back in the days of the one room schoolhouse, the
teacher dealt with kids on many different levels simultaneously. It
was not until we started this age segregating that things started
going down the conformity hill.

Bridget

Lynda

Ya know, I think (save the flames, it's an opinion <g>) that a lot of the
trouble with ps has to do with teachers, lack of common sense and how young
so many of them are. They don't seem "equipped" to deal with a variety of
children.

Example, (I worked for 3 different school districts and hubby worked for yet
another so we have dozens of these experiences) a young teacher fresh out of
college is given a class of 8th graders. In ps this is a very agressive
age. This teacher (22) was tiny, "cute" and had a "little" voice. She was
NOT an alpha person. That class was a free for all and by the end of the
first quarter she was handing out cinch notices left and right and flunking
more than 75% of the class. IMNSHO, *if* she as going to teach she should
have started out with K and then worked her way up if she wanted to teach
the older kids!

Another teacher at this same school wanted to be "one of the girls" and be
"friends" with all the girls in her class. When one of the girls didn't
want to be her friend or if one of the boys acted out, she would sit in the
teacher's lounge and cry!

And then you have to figure in the fact that the majority of ps graduates
end up having to take remedial math and English classes. How are they going
to teach that which they didn't grasp themselves to begin with.

IF it should ever come to pass that I am forced to send the kidlets to ps,
then they will go to the local "one room school house" where my cousin sends
her daughter! This woman rents a big 3 bedroom house and that is her
"school house." She has 20 students. There are two teachers. The kids
range in age from her 4 yo to 18. Everything they do is either hands on or
very inventive. For example, they studied the U.S. political system last
year. Along with reading, they watched tons of videos, CNN, etc. and went
to school board meetings, city council meetings and board of supervisor
meetings. They went to town hall meetings and to political rallies. They
also did a fundraiser and they all went to Washington, D.C.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "rumpleteasermom" <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 8:01 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: dumbing down TV (was RE: Covering the
basics)
> >
>
> I personally think this is a symptom of public school dependency. In
> an effort ot make everyone conform, the system had to gear itself to
> the 'lowest common denominator'. So now every child learns the same
> stuff but it is so much less interesting stuff.
> And think aboutit, back in the days of the one room schoolhouse, the
> teacher dealt with kids on many different levels simultaneously. It
> was not until we started this age segregating that things started
> going down the conformity hill.
>
> Bridget
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Sarah Carothers

I have a little different opinion, Lynda... with all due respect of
yours :-)
My experience was with an almost-ready-to-retire teacher and she was
horrible! She was so drained and fried, she should've retired years
ago. OTOH, a good friend just finished school and became a 5th grade
teacher. She had lots of new ideas, she was 'fresh' and what became
her stumbling block was not her inexperience but the system within
which she had to work. There were so many ridiculous rules.. specific
number of pages to cover in a day and that sort of thing... she was
rendered helpless by the very system that should have been supporting
her!
I'm just glad for the freedom to escape the system and do my own
thing!
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/21/2002




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

adair

Hello, everyone,

I've been reading some of the messages after having subscribed last week,
and think we are where we are supposed to be. I may need someone to pint
me in the right direction, because I'm a little overwhelmed.

To make a long story short: intelligent, artistic daughter with a major
depressive order and some health issues who absolutely despises school. We
homeschooled during the eight grade, which she loved, but her father wanted
her mainstreamed, again. It has been 1disasterous year after another. Not
only is she angry that she was forced to go to "school," she refused to do
the work much of the time and has finally, joyfully, at age 16, officially
"quit" school.

Not that I blame her.

I don't even know what we need, to be honest. I sense that I need to let
her just rest a little and heal...she's had a very bad month, health and
emotionally-wise. She wishes to go to art school eventually, and in New
York State, where we are, if she is 50% deficient of her HS credits, she
qualifies to take the GED, but that won't be until next autumn, because
they are insisting she finish the school year, which she fixed by leaving
school altogether. Also, here in New York, if one can get into the State
University system and earn 24 credit hours, NY state automatically grants a
GED.

SATs are Saturday.

I don't feel that we should direct her education, especially now, with her
in this emotionally precarious position.

Any advice or suggestions is much appreciated.







.+'*'+.+'*'+.
. adair@...
*'+. .+'*
*

Sarah Carothers

On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:15:05 -0500, adair wrote:
>
>I don't even know what we need, to be honest. I sense
>that I need to let
>her just rest a little and heal

Hi and welcome,
I think you should follow your instincts because they are probably
the best guide right now. Almost everybody who leaves school needs
that time to de-tox, so to speak, and she would be no exception. You
mentioned SAT's this Saturday. What's the rush? Can she not take a
year off to do nothing and then maybe by next year, she'll have a
clearer head and will do better at whatever it is she pursues?

For now, though, I think just a path of "pursue your own interest and
to heck with the rest" is what the doctor would order.

--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/21/2002



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Teenage Liberation Handbook and other books written by this author would be
excellent for your daughter. I think you have to be super strong with this
issue and go over your husband's feelings. She needs you and you need to
help her be happy again.

Sincerely,
Mary

adair

At 03:51 PM 1/21/2002, you wrote:
>On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 15:15:05 -0500, adair wrote:
> >
> >I don't even know what we need, to be honest. I sense
> >that I need to let
> >her just rest a little and heal
>
>Hi and welcome,
>I think you should follow your instincts because they are probably
>the best guide right now. Almost everybody who leaves school needs
>that time to de-tox, so to speak, and she would be no exception. You
>mentioned SAT's this Saturday. What's the rush? Can she not take a
>year off to do nothing and then maybe by next year, she'll have a
>clearer head and will do better at whatever it is she pursues?
>
>For now, though, I think just a path of "pursue your own interest and
>to heck with the rest" is what the doctor would order.



Thanks for the confirmation, Sarah.

The rush is her father. He's extremely unhappy with her leaving school and
he seems to be looking around frantically for someone to blame it on! :)

Doing nothing is probably the best thing for her.


.+'*'+.+'*'+.
. adair@...
*'+. .+'*
*

Lucie Caunter

Public School dependency, indeed. But may be also because the materiels
has been reduced to very small framents. Fragments, which can be tested on
more easily, but looses its relevancy to reality.
Lucie
----- Original Message -----
From: rumpleteasermom <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 11:01 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: dumbing down TV (was RE: Covering the
basics)


> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Corina Crane <corina_crane@y...>
> wrote:
>
> > I have commented to my husband that we keep getting dumber and
> dumber. People knew way more about more in general before. Now we
> have to change the questions on Jepardy, and make documentaries full
> of nothing. Where will we be 50 years from now?
> >
> > Just recently, we purchased a new trivial pursuit game (first in
> about 8 years). We couldn't believe how they dumbed down the
> questions there too!
> >
> > Is the love of knowledge a dying thing? How can we stop it's
> demise?
> >
> > Corina
> >
>
> I personally think this is a symptom of public school dependency. In
> an effort ot make everyone conform, the system had to gear itself to
> the 'lowest common denominator'. So now every child learns the same
> stuff but it is so much less interesting stuff.
> And think aboutit, back in the days of the one room schoolhouse, the
> teacher dealt with kids on many different levels simultaneously. It
> was not until we started this age segregating that things started
> going down the conformity hill.
>
> Bridget
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

adair

At 04:04 PM 1/21/2002, you wrote:
>Teenage Liberation Handbook and other books written by this author would be
>excellent for your daughter. I think you have to be super strong with this
>issue and go over your husband's feelings. She needs you and you need to
>help her be happy again.
>
>Sincerely,
>Mary


Thanks, Mary, I just ordered that book the other day.

Fortunately I have not been married to her father for a number of years, so
he can't practically interfere, since she is now 16. He's just trying to
make us feel guilty, but we are ignoring it.


.+'*'+.+'*'+.
. adair@...
*'+. .+'*
*

Lynda

How old was she and did she have any life experiences with children? That
is the new graduate.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Carothers" <puddles@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 21, 2002 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: dumbing down TV (was RE: Covering the
basics)


> I have a little different opinion, Lynda... with all due respect of
> yours :-)
> My experience was with an almost-ready-to-retire teacher and she was
> horrible! She was so drained and fried, she should've retired years
> ago. OTOH, a good friend just finished school and became a 5th grade
> teacher. She had lots of new ideas, she was 'fresh' and what became
> her stumbling block was not her inexperience but the system within
> which she had to work. There were so many ridiculous rules.. specific
> number of pages to cover in a day and that sort of thing... she was
> rendered helpless by the very system that should have been supporting
> her!
> I'm just glad for the freedom to escape the system and do my own
> thing!
> --
> Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/21/2002
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Kolleen

>Adair wrote:
>I don't feel that we should direct her education, especially now, with her
>in this emotionally precarious position.
>
>Any advice or suggestions is much appreciated.


Hi Adair and welcome!

You sure sound like you know what you and your daughter need right now.
Keep up the great work!

Ignoring the lack of support won't be easy, but you certainly got the
right idea :-)

regards,
kolleen

Sarah Carothers

On Mon, 21 Jan 2002 16:01:46 -0800, Lynda wrote:
>How old was she and did she have any life experiences
>with children? That
>is the new graduate.
>
>Lynda

Good point... she was a 30's woman with two kids of her own. THAT
would make a difference!
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/21/2002



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

Sounds like you already know what to do but I'll add my opinion for
you.

Right now, it is more important that you help her learn to deal with
herself. She needs to understand that she has a medical problem not
some 'failure'. That is often the hardest part of dealing with
depression - - those who unwittingly (or intentionally) make you
feel that it is just a lack of willpower or drive. It isn't.
Recognizing it for what it is and learning to thrive with it (not in
spite of it) are important. Your daughter may need your help, or she
may not. But she needs to be in control of her life. You have to
help her get there however you can.

Is she on amy meds? My 16, almost 17. yo dd is on Prozac. It has
done amazing things but she still has a ways to go in recognizing
some of her 'causes'.

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., adair <adair@t...> wrote:

>
> I don't feel that we should direct her education, especially now,
with her
> in this emotionally precarious position.
>
> Any advice or suggestions is much appreciated.
> > .+'*'+.+'*'+.
> . adair@t...
> *'+. .+'*
> *

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Sarah Carothers <puddles@t...> wrote:
> You
> mentioned SAT's this Saturday. What's the rush? Can she not take a
> year off to do nothing and then maybe by next year, she'll have a
> clearer head and will do better at whatever it is she pursues?

This is true and if she is nervous, frustrated or upset about taking
the SAT she should probably not do it. BUT - mine look at tests like
those as games. They would go take it for fun. If yours can turn
it into a fun thing or an interesting thing, then let her go ahead
and go. Just make absolutely sure she understands that it is not
important in the grand scheme of life. I mean really, how many
people asked you for your SAT scores in your lifetime?

Bridget

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> Ya know, I think (save the flames, it's an opinion <g>) that a lot
of the
> trouble with ps has to do with teachers, lack of common sense and
how young
> so many of them are. They don't seem "equipped" to deal with a
variety of
> children.

I only half agree with you. Sure inexperienced and ill prepared
teachers are a problem so are the burnt out ones.
But there are much deeper problems too. The start with state school
boards who set curriculum (in stone) and include superintendents who
think they are gods, administrators who don't understand diversity
and its impact on education, an entire segment of society who buys
into the "you must do this at this age, in this way" philosophy, etc.
and you have the makings of something really bad.

Bridget

adair

At 08:38 AM 1/22/2002, you wrote:
>Sounds like you already know what to do but I'll add my opinion for
>you.
>
>Right now, it is more important that you help her learn to deal with
>herself. She needs to understand that she has a medical problem not
>some 'failure'. That is often the hardest part of dealing with
>depression - - those who unwittingly (or intentionally) make you
>feel that it is just a lack of willpower or drive. It isn't.
>Recognizing it for what it is and learning to thrive with it (not in
>spite of it) are important. Your daughter may need your help, or she
>may not. But she needs to be in control of her life. You have to
>help her get there however you can.
>
>Is she on amy meds? My 16, almost 17. yo dd is on Prozac. It has
>done amazing things but she still has a ways to go in recognizing
>some of her 'causes'.
>
>Bridget


Hi Bridge,

Thanks so much for your input.

She defiantly understands that it's a medical problem, she has no shame
over the situation and whenever someone tries to push her, she shuts down
and withdraws, so they learn FAST to let her be.

She's making her own decisions, which I think is the best thing for her, at
this point. She is on medication and seeing a psychiatrist, whom she
adores, an anger-management counselor and has been evaluated by a
psychologist, so things are definitely much more in hand than in September
when she had her big meltdown.

I think it was school which brought it on. Yes, she has a predisposition
for it, but...school, in my opinion, was the catalyst. That and having a
*rilly* bad day, if you know what I mean.

She's interested in taking an art class, which I mentioned (I hope, or I
really am forgetful) at the local community college. Here's some
information that I hope will be helpful.

For a non-matriculated student there is no age restriction for taking
college courses though the community colleges of the State University
system of New York!

You can pay monthly.

Even though the class is for Art majors "only," they are looking for an
instructor who will agree to having her in their class (she plans to go to
Art School, eventually.)

So, the system is very accommodating, as a whole. Let's see if Friday
morning's art instructor is persnickety or not.




.+'*'+.+'*'+.
. adair@...
*'+. .+'*
*

adair

>
>
>This is true and if she is nervous, frustrated or upset about taking
>the SAT she should probably not do it. BUT - mine look at tests like
>those as games. They would go take it for fun. If yours can turn
>it into a fun thing or an interesting thing, then let her go ahead
>and go. Just make absolutely sure she understands that it is not
>important in the grand scheme of life. I mean really, how many
>people asked you for your SAT scores in your lifetime?
>
>Bridget


Fortunately, none, because I don't know them. Christine thinks that
nothing is very important in the grand scheme of life only what is
important to *her,* so no problem, there.

She seems eager to take the exam, so I think it just may be the "game"
thing you mention....or, a way of "taming" her father. She's no victim,
that's for sure.


.+'*'+.+'*'+.
. adair@...
*'+. .+'*
*

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., adair <adair@t...> wrote:

>
> I think it was school which brought it on. Yes, she has a
predisposition
> for it, but...school, in my opinion, was the catalyst. That and
having a
> *rilly* bad day, if you know what I mean.
>

You know, I often look at Rachel and wonder what she would be like
had I not chosen to pull her out of school. It's like those road not
taken stories. We never get to know what would have happened if . . .

Bridget

rumpleteasermom

That is another benefit for those with kids who test well and have
fun with the tests . . . it is much easier to shut the critics down
before they have much of a chance to start on us!

Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., adair <adair@t...> wrote:

> She seems eager to take the exam, so I think it just may be
the "game"
> thing you mention....or, a way of "taming" her father. She's no
victim,
> that's for sure.
>
>
> .+'*'+.+'*'+.
> . adair@t...
> *'+. .+'*
> *

adair

At 11:05 AM 1/22/2002, you wrote:
>That is another benefit for those with kids who test well and have
>fun with the tests . . . it is much easier to shut the critics down
>before they have much of a chance to start on us!
>
>Bridget


Persactly.

My daughter, the strategist.


.+'*'+.+'*'+.
. adair@...
*'+. .+'*
*

rumpleteasermom

If I haven't already told you:
My girls have a yahoo group called EclecticTeen, please invite yours
to join them. They need to get some more people to get the
conversational ball rolling I think. It comes in spurts right now.

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., adair <adair@t...> wrote:

> Persactly.
>
> My daughter, the strategist.
>
>
> .+'*'+.+'*'+.
> . adair@t...
> *'+. .+'*
> *

adair

At 01:27 PM 1/22/2002, you wrote:
>If I haven't already told you:
>My girls have a yahoo group called EclecticTeen, please invite yours
>to join them. They need to get some more people to get the
>conversational ball rolling I think. It comes in spurts right now.
>
>Bridget


Thanks. I will.


.+'*'+.+'*'+.
. adair@...
*'+. .+'*
*