Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1721
Joseph Fuerst
Lynn, I see your viewpoint on why you don't like TV. In relation to
unschooling, however, I believe the challenge is in allowing your children
to explore and understand limits *intrinsically*. What I find most
challenging about unschooling is that it is up to me to provide
alternatives. I find this difficult because my oldest would love for me to
play more games with her....younger sibs don't understand how to play at her
level. BUT, because of the younger sibs, my ability to do this is very
limited. The three yr old *wants* to play, the toddler *wants* to throw
pieces everywhere.
The 6 yr old doesn't like games and rules...she like to play making up her
own rules as she sees fit. Outings can be difficult with my children's age
range, too. The oldest 2 aren't able to play in many "kiddielands"...and
the youngest 2 can't sit through theater productions, are a major
distraction in museums, etc.
My point boils down to...the extrinsic 'rules' often circumvent a person's
ability to listen to and trust their own gut feelings.
Susan
unschooling, however, I believe the challenge is in allowing your children
to explore and understand limits *intrinsically*. What I find most
challenging about unschooling is that it is up to me to provide
alternatives. I find this difficult because my oldest would love for me to
play more games with her....younger sibs don't understand how to play at her
level. BUT, because of the younger sibs, my ability to do this is very
limited. The three yr old *wants* to play, the toddler *wants* to throw
pieces everywhere.
The 6 yr old doesn't like games and rules...she like to play making up her
own rules as she sees fit. Outings can be difficult with my children's age
range, too. The oldest 2 aren't able to play in many "kiddielands"...and
the youngest 2 can't sit through theater productions, are a major
distraction in museums, etc.
My point boils down to...the extrinsic 'rules' often circumvent a person's
ability to listen to and trust their own gut feelings.
Susan
> As far as TV goes, we allow my son to watch once a week. Those are the
> rules, so he doesn't ask for it on the other days bc he is busy doing
> other things, seeing friends, reading, playing and what-have-you.
>
> I think TV is harmful bc it takes away from time kids can be spent doing
> other, more productive and imaginative things, like watching clouds float
> thru the sky. The images of women and people of color bother me. Its
> materialistic emphasis bothers me. Mostly, though, I hate the sound of it,
> that ever-present din in the background. I find my own life is richer
> w/out it. But that is my own baggage. My brother, on the other hand,
> watches tons of TV. He also happens to be a serious and very successful
> novelist who lacks nothing in the imagination or hardworking dept. So who
> can really say? I guess it just comes down to one's own comfort level.
>
> Best,
> Lynn
>
Lorraine Goods
On Tue, 1 Jan 2002, Joseph Fuerst wrote:
I appreciate your thoughtful response. And I do agree, to a point.
However, looking back on my own experiences growing up, I am thankful that
I had limits placed on me during certain times of my life when I really
don't think I would have been able to handle the freedom of making my own
choices. For instance, in junior high school, a bunch of my friends
started staying out late, experimenting w/drugs, sex etc. I was not
allowed to do these things and would have gotten in big trouble if I'd
tried them and gotten caught. Looking back on these times, I think that if
I had been allowed to engage in such behaviors the results would have been
disastrous -- pregnancy, overdose, etc. By the time I got to college, and
I did start experimenting w/smoking pot, having boyfriends and such, I was
much better able to handle it. Sure I went overboard a few times, but I
was much more mature at 19 than I was at 13.
I have a question for all of you who don't place limits on TV-watching:
Will you also allow your children to find their own limits with respect to
things like drinking, having sex etc?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic; I'm really curious.
Best,
Lynn
> Lynn, I see your viewpoint on why you don't like TV. In relation toHey Susan,
> unschooling, however, I believe the challenge is in allowing your children
> to explore and understand limits *intrinsically*.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. And I do agree, to a point.
However, looking back on my own experiences growing up, I am thankful that
I had limits placed on me during certain times of my life when I really
don't think I would have been able to handle the freedom of making my own
choices. For instance, in junior high school, a bunch of my friends
started staying out late, experimenting w/drugs, sex etc. I was not
allowed to do these things and would have gotten in big trouble if I'd
tried them and gotten caught. Looking back on these times, I think that if
I had been allowed to engage in such behaviors the results would have been
disastrous -- pregnancy, overdose, etc. By the time I got to college, and
I did start experimenting w/smoking pot, having boyfriends and such, I was
much better able to handle it. Sure I went overboard a few times, but I
was much more mature at 19 than I was at 13.
I have a question for all of you who don't place limits on TV-watching:
Will you also allow your children to find their own limits with respect to
things like drinking, having sex etc?
I'm not trying to be antagonistic; I'm really curious.
Best,
Lynn
Sarah Carothers
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:45:54 -0500 (EST), Lorraine Goods wrote:
ok.
DD does not have limits about drugs, sex and rock and roll. <g> She
*chooses* not to do drugs or become sexually active... I do not have
to tell her not to; it's all in her value system and what she has
learned from us, her parents. She's been informed of what happens
when you do either of those things and SHE's made the decision not to
go that route. Think about it... who, in their right mind would
*choose* to do either of these things if they are given the facts of
the consequences?! OTOH, some of her friends who *do* have parents
restricting their kids' activities (you have to be in by 10, you will
be severely grounded if we catch you doing 'x', etc) ARE doing all
these things and more!... sneaking at every chance the get.
imo It all comes back to the issue of respecting your child...
respecting them to have the sense to *make* the right decisions. That
begins when they are little, not later in life. I doubt my kid will
experiment with drugs when she goes to college.. a time when, as you
put it she'll be "better able to handle it". I think she's learned
long before college age that drugs and irresponsible sex are
dangerous endeavors to pursue.
When I talk to her and we're discussing what some of her friends are
doing, she refers to their behavior as "dumb". We openly talk about
it; she tells me that so-and-so snuck out of her house last night and
met this guy, etc. Doing that, though, is not *necessary* or even
attractive as an option for her be*cause* we, her parents, don't set
limits that prohibit her seeing a guy.
True experience: dd met this guy and started dating him (not
car-dating.. neither has their license). I knew that this guy was
coming from a less-than desirable lifestyle(imo) which included
neglectful parents, hanging out at the mall *all* the time, smoking,
smoking pot and being sexually active. I knew if I prevented her
from seeing him, I'd forever have to be monitoring who she was with
at the movies, who she was meeting at the mall. So, instead, I
welcomed him into our household (fed him, too... remember i mentioned
that before?<g>) I *told* dd what concerned me about him but I didn't
let those concerns dictate what she could do. It only took a few
weeks for dd to see that my concerns were warranted and she didn't
want to have any part of his 'problems' and she broke off the
relationship. (yeah!!!!) It all worked out this way because of
respect. DD respects herself & knows we respect and trust her to make
good choices.
Do I ever have weak moments or feel myself waivering in my
convictions? yes!!! And usually when that happens, I come to my lists
and talk it out with other unschoolers and friends and I am reminded
of our past successes and I am told to chill. :-)
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I had limits placed on me during certain times of my life when Iwow.
>really
>don't think I would have been able to handle the freedom of making
>my own
>choices. For instance, in junior high school, a bunch of my friends
>started staying out late, experimenting w/drugs, sex etc. I was not
>allowed to do these things and would have gotten in big trouble if
>I'd
>tried them and gotten caught. Looking back on these times, I think
>that if
>I had been allowed to engage in such behaviors the results would
>have been
>disastrous -- pregnancy, overdose, etc. By the time I got to
>college, and
>I did start experimenting w/smoking pot, having boyfriends and
>such, I was
>much better able to handle it.
ok.
DD does not have limits about drugs, sex and rock and roll. <g> She
*chooses* not to do drugs or become sexually active... I do not have
to tell her not to; it's all in her value system and what she has
learned from us, her parents. She's been informed of what happens
when you do either of those things and SHE's made the decision not to
go that route. Think about it... who, in their right mind would
*choose* to do either of these things if they are given the facts of
the consequences?! OTOH, some of her friends who *do* have parents
restricting their kids' activities (you have to be in by 10, you will
be severely grounded if we catch you doing 'x', etc) ARE doing all
these things and more!... sneaking at every chance the get.
imo It all comes back to the issue of respecting your child...
respecting them to have the sense to *make* the right decisions. That
begins when they are little, not later in life. I doubt my kid will
experiment with drugs when she goes to college.. a time when, as you
put it she'll be "better able to handle it". I think she's learned
long before college age that drugs and irresponsible sex are
dangerous endeavors to pursue.
When I talk to her and we're discussing what some of her friends are
doing, she refers to their behavior as "dumb". We openly talk about
it; she tells me that so-and-so snuck out of her house last night and
met this guy, etc. Doing that, though, is not *necessary* or even
attractive as an option for her be*cause* we, her parents, don't set
limits that prohibit her seeing a guy.
True experience: dd met this guy and started dating him (not
car-dating.. neither has their license). I knew that this guy was
coming from a less-than desirable lifestyle(imo) which included
neglectful parents, hanging out at the mall *all* the time, smoking,
smoking pot and being sexually active. I knew if I prevented her
from seeing him, I'd forever have to be monitoring who she was with
at the movies, who she was meeting at the mall. So, instead, I
welcomed him into our household (fed him, too... remember i mentioned
that before?<g>) I *told* dd what concerned me about him but I didn't
let those concerns dictate what she could do. It only took a few
weeks for dd to see that my concerns were warranted and she didn't
want to have any part of his 'problems' and she broke off the
relationship. (yeah!!!!) It all worked out this way because of
respect. DD respects herself & knows we respect and trust her to make
good choices.
Do I ever have weak moments or feel myself waivering in my
convictions? yes!!! And usually when that happens, I come to my lists
and talk it out with other unschoolers and friends and I am reminded
of our past successes and I am told to chill. :-)
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/2/2002 9:46:28 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lg96@... writes:
work, especially for things like drinking and having sex. "I" am not in
control of their lives. . .they are, and if I fool myself into thinking I am
in control, I am in for a very rude awakening one day. I do share my views on
those things, and I also share my history and why I think I did what I did.
It is totally up to them to choose what they will do, and I totally trust
that the decisions they make are the "right" ones for them.
living in abundance
lovemary
There are no victims in this world. . . only opportunities
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lg96@... writes:
> I have a question for all of you who don't place limits on TV-watching:Absolutely!!! We all know or at least I know that forcing limits does NOT
> Will you also allow your children to find their own limits with respect to
> things like drinking, having sex etc?
>
work, especially for things like drinking and having sex. "I" am not in
control of their lives. . .they are, and if I fool myself into thinking I am
in control, I am in for a very rude awakening one day. I do share my views on
those things, and I also share my history and why I think I did what I did.
It is totally up to them to choose what they will do, and I totally trust
that the decisions they make are the "right" ones for them.
living in abundance
lovemary
There are no victims in this world. . . only opportunities
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
I already have with my oldest two. They are 16 (almost 17) and 14.
Rache has had her driver's license for nearly a year now. She has
been allowed to drink for longer. On New Year's Eve she had a half
glass of wine but she is not really interested in drinking. Oddley,
she wants to be a bartender. Odd choice for someone who really
shouldn't drink (prozac) and doesn't really like to anyway. She and
Jenni both like to taste our wines and beers when dh and I drink but
they really dont seem much interested in it.
As for sex, I'm begging! I want grandkids and they don't even want
to date! So yeah, that decision is theirs too.
If I noticed a problem with one of them, I might talk about it. If
drugs were involved I would say absolutely not in my house or any of
our cars.
And then there is Wyndham . . . I hope and pray that by the time he
is 16 he will have a better understanding of himself so that I don't
have to impose limits. Until then, he needs a lot more aid and
supervision than his sisters ever did. Recently (in the past year)
he has started showing some good signs. He is becoming more self-
aware and self-controlling. It's a slow process but it seems to be
working.
I think as a parent, the hardest part of my job was knowing the
difference between my children needing my help and not needing it.
Had I raised Rachel or Jenni the way I am Wyndham, they would be a
pregnant run-aways about now. The difference is in the personality
and problems of the individual children.
And here is something that needs said more clearly here . . . just
because I have to impose more limits on my son does not mean that I
respect him and his wishes less than I do the girl's. I do listen to
what he wants to do and what he thinks is best. We talk and discuss
the why's and when's of his limits and they change frequently as he
learns to cope with himself.
Bridget
Rache has had her driver's license for nearly a year now. She has
been allowed to drink for longer. On New Year's Eve she had a half
glass of wine but she is not really interested in drinking. Oddley,
she wants to be a bartender. Odd choice for someone who really
shouldn't drink (prozac) and doesn't really like to anyway. She and
Jenni both like to taste our wines and beers when dh and I drink but
they really dont seem much interested in it.
As for sex, I'm begging! I want grandkids and they don't even want
to date! So yeah, that decision is theirs too.
If I noticed a problem with one of them, I might talk about it. If
drugs were involved I would say absolutely not in my house or any of
our cars.
And then there is Wyndham . . . I hope and pray that by the time he
is 16 he will have a better understanding of himself so that I don't
have to impose limits. Until then, he needs a lot more aid and
supervision than his sisters ever did. Recently (in the past year)
he has started showing some good signs. He is becoming more self-
aware and self-controlling. It's a slow process but it seems to be
working.
I think as a parent, the hardest part of my job was knowing the
difference between my children needing my help and not needing it.
Had I raised Rachel or Jenni the way I am Wyndham, they would be a
pregnant run-aways about now. The difference is in the personality
and problems of the individual children.
And here is something that needs said more clearly here . . . just
because I have to impose more limits on my son does not mean that I
respect him and his wishes less than I do the girl's. I do listen to
what he wants to do and what he thinks is best. We talk and discuss
the why's and when's of his limits and they change frequently as he
learns to cope with himself.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Lorraine Goods <lg96@c...> wrote:
>
> I have a question for all of you who don't place limits on TV-
watching:
> Will you also allow your children to find their own limits with
respect to
> things like drinking, having sex etc?
>
> I'm not trying to be antagonistic; I'm really curious.
>
> Best,
> Lynn
Leslie Moyer
+ I have a question for all of you who don't place limits on TV-watching:
+ Will you also allow your children to find their own limits with respect to
+ things like drinking, having sex etc?
I see several "sides" to this answer....
First, I think there is a basic difference in how people feel about TV. You
are placing it in the same category as the dangers of drinking and having
sex. There are other people who don't believe TV is harmful at all and
others who see some harm, but not as dire as the comparison you've tried to
provide. Some see the dangers of show content; some of commercials; some of
inactivity; some of the activities that TV is replacing. So....what I'm
saying is that the issue of TV isn't as black and white as "TV good" vs. "TV
bad". Personal values regarding TV will vary.
Second, there will certainly be people that disagree with you that
"drinking" and "having sex" are bad. Heck--I do both from time to time and
seem to handle them just fine. :-) I would guess that, since you have
children, that you've done at least one of them at some time. :-) So what
you may be asking is about *responsible* drinking and *responsible* sex.
Would it follow for you that there is such a thing as *responsible* TV
viewing?
Third, if you read my version of "no TV limits" you'll see that I don't just
leave my kids to their own devices w.r.t. TV, but I give them tools to make
*responsible* and *conscious* choices. I think that almost all
conscientious parents here are trying to do the same thing--just in
different ways. I expect to be able to do the same w.r.t. drinking, sex,
and drugs.
My oldest is just 15 so I haven't lived THROUGH the teen years yet, but
we're well on our way. I think that issues like drinking and sex are issues
that we can also discuss rationally and that I can help to give my children
tools to make *responsible* decisions regarding these issues. I don't yet
know how I'll fare--ask me in about 5-10 years....
I'm having trouble wording this next part....bear with me if I don't make it
clear the first time. There is an assumption by people who haven't had much
experience with children who haven't been molded by peer influence. There
is an expectation by many that rebellion is "normal" and that teens, given a
choice will choose the WRONG choice automatically. Or that the wrong choice
will be the easiest or "most fun" choice for them. I disagree.
Kids whose parents or teachers have tightly controlled their lives don't
have experience making hard choices. There is a basic mistrust of the
teen's ability to make responsible choices. Kids react to this mistrust in
a logical way.....if you're going to mistrust them and punish them before
they make poor choices then they have nothing to lose by making poor
choices.
You said in your post, "a bunch of my friends started staying out late,
experimenting w/drugs, sex etc. I was not allowed to do these things and
would have gotten in big trouble if I'd tried them and gotten caught". Do
you really think your friends were "allowed" to experiment with drugs, sex,
etc? Or you do you think that their parents would not have approved, but
they did them anyway? Do you think that their parents just didn't have the
control that they thought they did? It is my guess that if you had *wanted*
to do those things, you could have found a way. I know I wasn't "allowed"
to do those things, either. But I did do some of them....and chose not to
do others.
Unschooling isn't really, at it's core, a set of choices of things we
"allow" or "don't allow" our children to do. It is, at the foundation, a
RELATIONSHIP we have with our children. We trust our children to make good
choices and we give them tools to make those choices for themselves. We
acknowledge the things we have control over and the things we delude
ourselves into THINKING we have control over.
When your teen goes out on a date, unless you accompany him/her, you have NO
CONTROL over whether they have sex or not. You can set all sorts of rules,
but if they want to have sex, they can easily find a way. Wouldn't it be
better to help them make good choices and lay the burden of responsibility
on them?
Leslie
+ Will you also allow your children to find their own limits with respect to
+ things like drinking, having sex etc?
I see several "sides" to this answer....
First, I think there is a basic difference in how people feel about TV. You
are placing it in the same category as the dangers of drinking and having
sex. There are other people who don't believe TV is harmful at all and
others who see some harm, but not as dire as the comparison you've tried to
provide. Some see the dangers of show content; some of commercials; some of
inactivity; some of the activities that TV is replacing. So....what I'm
saying is that the issue of TV isn't as black and white as "TV good" vs. "TV
bad". Personal values regarding TV will vary.
Second, there will certainly be people that disagree with you that
"drinking" and "having sex" are bad. Heck--I do both from time to time and
seem to handle them just fine. :-) I would guess that, since you have
children, that you've done at least one of them at some time. :-) So what
you may be asking is about *responsible* drinking and *responsible* sex.
Would it follow for you that there is such a thing as *responsible* TV
viewing?
Third, if you read my version of "no TV limits" you'll see that I don't just
leave my kids to their own devices w.r.t. TV, but I give them tools to make
*responsible* and *conscious* choices. I think that almost all
conscientious parents here are trying to do the same thing--just in
different ways. I expect to be able to do the same w.r.t. drinking, sex,
and drugs.
My oldest is just 15 so I haven't lived THROUGH the teen years yet, but
we're well on our way. I think that issues like drinking and sex are issues
that we can also discuss rationally and that I can help to give my children
tools to make *responsible* decisions regarding these issues. I don't yet
know how I'll fare--ask me in about 5-10 years....
I'm having trouble wording this next part....bear with me if I don't make it
clear the first time. There is an assumption by people who haven't had much
experience with children who haven't been molded by peer influence. There
is an expectation by many that rebellion is "normal" and that teens, given a
choice will choose the WRONG choice automatically. Or that the wrong choice
will be the easiest or "most fun" choice for them. I disagree.
Kids whose parents or teachers have tightly controlled their lives don't
have experience making hard choices. There is a basic mistrust of the
teen's ability to make responsible choices. Kids react to this mistrust in
a logical way.....if you're going to mistrust them and punish them before
they make poor choices then they have nothing to lose by making poor
choices.
You said in your post, "a bunch of my friends started staying out late,
experimenting w/drugs, sex etc. I was not allowed to do these things and
would have gotten in big trouble if I'd tried them and gotten caught". Do
you really think your friends were "allowed" to experiment with drugs, sex,
etc? Or you do you think that their parents would not have approved, but
they did them anyway? Do you think that their parents just didn't have the
control that they thought they did? It is my guess that if you had *wanted*
to do those things, you could have found a way. I know I wasn't "allowed"
to do those things, either. But I did do some of them....and chose not to
do others.
Unschooling isn't really, at it's core, a set of choices of things we
"allow" or "don't allow" our children to do. It is, at the foundation, a
RELATIONSHIP we have with our children. We trust our children to make good
choices and we give them tools to make those choices for themselves. We
acknowledge the things we have control over and the things we delude
ourselves into THINKING we have control over.
When your teen goes out on a date, unless you accompany him/her, you have NO
CONTROL over whether they have sex or not. You can set all sorts of rules,
but if they want to have sex, they can easily find a way. Wouldn't it be
better to help them make good choices and lay the burden of responsibility
on them?
Leslie
Shyrley
> + I have a question for all of you who don't place limits onI impose no limits on TV but as we've recently moved to the US from
> TV-watching:
> + Will you also allow your children to find their own limits with
> respect to
> + things like drinking, having sex etc?
>
england with only 5 channels the sheer amount of channels plus the fact
that every time you channel hop it is mostly comercials has put the kids
off. They never watch American TV.
:)
Shyrley
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Leslie Moyer" <LeslieMoyer@g...>
wrote:
set our schools up to create a Lord of the Flies situation. There is
so much age segregation that the only strong influence comes from
others of the same group. Maybe LOTF should be required reading for
everyone involved in schools???
Bridget
wrote:
>don't make it
> I'm having trouble wording this next part....bear with me if I
> clear the first time. There is an assumption by people who haven'thad much
> experience with children who haven't been molded by peerinfluence. There
> is an expectation by many that rebellion is "normal" and thatteens, given a
> choice will choose the WRONG choice automatically. Or that thewrong choice
> will be the easiest or "most fun" choice for them. I disagree.This is something I've thought about a bit. It seems to me we have
>
set our schools up to create a Lord of the Flies situation. There is
so much age segregation that the only strong influence comes from
others of the same group. Maybe LOTF should be required reading for
everyone involved in schools???
Bridget
Leslie Moyer
+ It seems to me we have
+ set our schools up to create a Lord of the Flies situation.
I *totally* agree. If you haven't read the book/watched the movie in a
while, it's great food for thought.
Leslie Moyer
+ set our schools up to create a Lord of the Flies situation.
I *totally* agree. If you haven't read the book/watched the movie in a
while, it's great food for thought.
Leslie Moyer
Alan Moorehead
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Leslie Moyer" <LeslieMoyer@g...>Mimi
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm having trouble wording this next part....bear with me if I
> don't make it
>> clear the first time. There is an assumption by people who haven't
> had much
>> experience with children who haven't been molded by peer
> influence. There
>> is an expectation by many that rebellion is "normal" and that
> teens, given a
>> choice will choose the WRONG choice automatically. Or that the
> wrong choice
>> will be the easiest or "most fun" choice for them. I disagree.
>>
> ================
> Leslie, I think you worded this very well and I totally agree with
> you. I know that many teachers have these assumptions.
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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Lynda
Are your daughter's friends ps kids or hs kids? While "the grass is
greener" syndrome plays to this, I think it is a combination of things. I
think there are lots of kids in the ps system who are raised with respect
but get sucked into the whole peer pressure thing that those of us who
hs/unschool don't have to worry about. thank god/dess!
Lynda
greener" syndrome plays to this, I think it is a combination of things. I
think there are lots of kids in the ps system who are raised with respect
but get sucked into the whole peer pressure thing that those of us who
hs/unschool don't have to worry about. thank god/dess!
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Carothers" <puddles@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1721
> On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:45:54 -0500 (EST), Lorraine Goods wrote:
> >I had limits placed on me during certain times of my life when I
> >really
> >don't think I would have been able to handle the freedom of making
> >my own
> >choices. For instance, in junior high school, a bunch of my friends
> >started staying out late, experimenting w/drugs, sex etc. I was not
> >allowed to do these things and would have gotten in big trouble if
> >I'd
> >tried them and gotten caught. Looking back on these times, I think
> >that if
> >I had been allowed to engage in such behaviors the results would
> >have been
> >disastrous -- pregnancy, overdose, etc. By the time I got to
> >college, and
> >I did start experimenting w/smoking pot, having boyfriends and
> >such, I was
> >much better able to handle it.
>
> wow.
> ok.
> DD does not have limits about drugs, sex and rock and roll. <g> She
> *chooses* not to do drugs or become sexually active... I do not have
> to tell her not to; it's all in her value system and what she has
> learned from us, her parents. She's been informed of what happens
> when you do either of those things and SHE's made the decision not to
> go that route. Think about it... who, in their right mind would
> *choose* to do either of these things if they are given the facts of
> the consequences?! OTOH, some of her friends who *do* have parents
> restricting their kids' activities (you have to be in by 10, you will
> be severely grounded if we catch you doing 'x', etc) ARE doing all
> these things and more!... sneaking at every chance the get.
> imo It all comes back to the issue of respecting your child...
> respecting them to have the sense to *make* the right decisions. That
> begins when they are little, not later in life. I doubt my kid will
> experiment with drugs when she goes to college.. a time when, as you
> put it she'll be "better able to handle it". I think she's learned
> long before college age that drugs and irresponsible sex are
> dangerous endeavors to pursue.
> When I talk to her and we're discussing what some of her friends are
> doing, she refers to their behavior as "dumb". We openly talk about
> it; she tells me that so-and-so snuck out of her house last night and
> met this guy, etc. Doing that, though, is not *necessary* or even
> attractive as an option for her be*cause* we, her parents, don't set
> limits that prohibit her seeing a guy.
> True experience: dd met this guy and started dating him (not
> car-dating.. neither has their license). I knew that this guy was
> coming from a less-than desirable lifestyle(imo) which included
> neglectful parents, hanging out at the mall *all* the time, smoking,
> smoking pot and being sexually active. I knew if I prevented her
> from seeing him, I'd forever have to be monitoring who she was with
> at the movies, who she was meeting at the mall. So, instead, I
> welcomed him into our household (fed him, too... remember i mentioned
> that before?<g>) I *told* dd what concerned me about him but I didn't
> let those concerns dictate what she could do. It only took a few
> weeks for dd to see that my concerns were warranted and she didn't
> want to have any part of his 'problems' and she broke off the
> relationship. (yeah!!!!) It all worked out this way because of
> respect. DD respects herself & knows we respect and trust her to make
> good choices.
> Do I ever have weak moments or feel myself waivering in my
> convictions? yes!!! And usually when that happens, I come to my lists
> and talk it out with other unschoolers and friends and I am reminded
> of our past successes and I am told to chill. :-)
> Sarah
> ~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
> Sarah Carothers
> puddles@...
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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Sarah Carothers
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 10:15:29 -0800, Lynda wrote:
My dd's friends are all public schooled kids. She knows.... um... let
me think *really* hard... she knows one hs'd kid in her dance class
but they aren't really close... yet.
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Are your daughter's friends ps kids or hs kids?Who are you asking, me?
My dd's friends are all public schooled kids. She knows.... um... let
me think *really* hard... she knows one hs'd kid in her dance class
but they aren't really close... yet.
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karin
About limits and teens, I remember them very well myself. My parents, especially my dad, were extremely controlling. I remember being 14-17 and my parents didn't let me do ANYTHING. My dad always told me he "knew" if he let me go out and do things, I would get pregnant or get in trouble or do something to embarras him. I was already untrustworthy and guilty before I even had a chance prove myself otherwise. I was (and still am) very resentful of this treatment.
In my mind, I knew my own standards of behavior, my own morals and ethics. I knew I didn't want to get pregnant or take drugs. I just wanted freedom. My parent's treatment of me made me feel very sad and angry. I had to resort to sneaking around. I am still very sneaky, learned it way back then. I remember my dad even opened, read and confiscated some of my private letters I was writing to a friend (who was a boy). I couldn't even get phone calls. This probably all sounds extreme, and it was, to me. I know you all probably don't go this far with social limits on your kids, but I have some of the worst memories of that time in my life.
When I finally was given *some* freedom, it was when I was a senior in high school and beyond. I had a small group of friends. I was exposed to sex, drugs, drinking, but because my own beliefs were so strong, I chose to follow a pretty straight and narrow path and not mess myself up. But it wasn't because of my parents limits when I was a younger teen. That really just made things worse in my mind. I was okay all along, really I was. I felt slighted by my parents because they didn't trust me. I probably would have appreciated a more open line of communication with them instead of "you'll do as I say because I said so".
I'm not quite sure yet how I will handle things with my boys (who are 8 & 10) when the time comes, but like everything else I've learned, I will try to make their experience with friends, dating, and my trust in them more positive than mine was when I was growing up.
Karin
In my mind, I knew my own standards of behavior, my own morals and ethics. I knew I didn't want to get pregnant or take drugs. I just wanted freedom. My parent's treatment of me made me feel very sad and angry. I had to resort to sneaking around. I am still very sneaky, learned it way back then. I remember my dad even opened, read and confiscated some of my private letters I was writing to a friend (who was a boy). I couldn't even get phone calls. This probably all sounds extreme, and it was, to me. I know you all probably don't go this far with social limits on your kids, but I have some of the worst memories of that time in my life.
When I finally was given *some* freedom, it was when I was a senior in high school and beyond. I had a small group of friends. I was exposed to sex, drugs, drinking, but because my own beliefs were so strong, I chose to follow a pretty straight and narrow path and not mess myself up. But it wasn't because of my parents limits when I was a younger teen. That really just made things worse in my mind. I was okay all along, really I was. I felt slighted by my parents because they didn't trust me. I probably would have appreciated a more open line of communication with them instead of "you'll do as I say because I said so".
I'm not quite sure yet how I will handle things with my boys (who are 8 & 10) when the time comes, but like everything else I've learned, I will try to make their experience with friends, dating, and my trust in them more positive than mine was when I was growing up.
Karin
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:45:54 -0500 (EST), Lorraine Goods wrote:
>I had limits placed on me during certain times of my life when I
>really
>don't think I would have been able to handle the freedom of making
>my own
>choices. For instance, in junior high school, a bunch of my friends
>started staying out late, experimenting w/drugs, sex etc. I was not
>allowed to do these things and would have gotten in big trouble if
>I'd
>tried them and gotten caught. Looking back on these times, I think
>that if
>I had been allowed to engage in such behaviors the results would
>have been
>disastrous -- pregnancy, overdose, etc. By the time I got to
>college, and
>I did start experimenting w/smoking pot, having boyfriends and
>such, I was
>much better able to handle it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>Most of us are. <g> I had very few limits on me at 13. I did have a
>I appreciate your thoughtful response. And I do agree, to a point.
>However, looking back on my own experiences growing up, I am thankful that
>I had limits placed on me during certain times of my life when I really
>don't think I would have been able to handle the freedom of making my own
>choices. For instance, in junior high school, a bunch of my friends
>started staying out late, experimenting w/drugs, sex etc. I was not
>allowed to do these things and would have gotten in big trouble if I'd
>tried them and gotten caught. Looking back on these times, I think that if
>I had been allowed to engage in such behaviors the results would have been
>disastrous -- pregnancy, overdose, etc. By the time I got to college, and
>I did start experimenting w/smoking pot, having boyfriends and such, I was
>much better able to handle it. Sure I went overboard a few times, but I
>was much more mature at 19 than I was at 13.
mother who had given me permission to lie and say I wasn't allowed if
something came up that I wasn't comfortable with.
>I have a question for all of you who don't place limits on TV-watching:With as much thoughtful guidance as I can muster? Yes.
>Will you also allow your children to find their own limits with respect to
>things like drinking, having sex etc?
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Tia Leschke
>Are your daughter's friends ps kids or hs kids? While "the grass isMaybe/maybe not. It depends on who they hang with. Because my son has
>greener" syndrome plays to this, I think it is a combination of things. I
>think there are lots of kids in the ps system who are raised with respect
>but get sucked into the whole peer pressure thing that those of us who
>hs/unschool don't have to worry about. thank god/dess!
always been into team sports, and because there are no homeschoolers near
his age in our town, his friends all go to school. (except the one who
just went back to correspondance study) Luckily, they're mostly a good bunch.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Pat Cald...
Leslie wrote:
viewing?
Third, if you read my version of "no TV limits" you'll see that I don't just
leave my kids to their own devices w.r.t. TV, but I give them tools to make
*responsible* and *conscious* choices. I think that almost all
conscientious parents here are trying to do the same thing--just in
different ways. I expect to be able to do the same w.r.t. drinking, sex,
www.wcpc.org/sexuality/media.html
www.wcpc.org/sexuality/teens.html
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>what you may be asking is about *responsible* drinking and *responsible* sex.Would it follow for you that there is such a thing as *responsible* TV
viewing?
Third, if you read my version of "no TV limits" you'll see that I don't just
leave my kids to their own devices w.r.t. TV, but I give them tools to make
*responsible* and *conscious* choices. I think that almost all
conscientious parents here are trying to do the same thing--just in
different ways. I expect to be able to do the same w.r.t. drinking, sex,
>and drugs.So what is responsible sex these days? IMO things have changed and it is no longer as much a moral question as much as a health safety question. Here are two web sites that I found interesting and can be used in informing our teens.
www.wcpc.org/sexuality/media.html
www.wcpc.org/sexuality/teens.html
Pat
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie Moyer
+ -----Original Message-----
+ From: Pat Cald... [mailto:homeschoolmd@...]
+ So what is responsible sex these days? IMO things have changed
+ and it is no longer as much a moral question as much as a health
+ safety question.
Do you have "responsible" sex with your husband? To me, "responsible" sex
INCLUDES the dire health safety questions as well as the moral ones.
--Leslie
+ From: Pat Cald... [mailto:homeschoolmd@...]
+ So what is responsible sex these days? IMO things have changed
+ and it is no longer as much a moral question as much as a health
+ safety question.
Do you have "responsible" sex with your husband? To me, "responsible" sex
INCLUDES the dire health safety questions as well as the moral ones.
--Leslie
Lorraine Goods
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, Sarah Carothers wrote:
system. You're obviously doing something right. Growing up, I also
learned values from my parents in terms
of how to live and I'm very thankful for the lessons, for they still guide
me to this day. I think that at some point, most kids do want to stretch
their wings and try new things. It's normal. Some kids will do this in a
responisble way, some won't and some kids' behavior will fall somewhere in
between. My point is, though, that I don't think one can always make
blanket statements such as "kids who grow up w/limits placed on them will
go wild first chance they get and make bad choices" or "kids who grow up
guided by thoughtful parents who trust them to make good decisions for
themselves will grow up accordingly."
I grew up w/some kids who had very strict parents who went wild when they
got out from under their parents' thumbs. I also knew kids who had strict
parents and these kids continued to walk the straight and narrow into
adulthood. I had friends who grew up w/more unschooling type parents and
these kids never learned to set limits for themselves and ended up in bad
situations w/drugs. I also had one friend w/very progressive parents who
gave him a lot of freedom growing up and he was one of the most studious,
responsible guys I knew. So there's no magic formula. We just all do our
best and hope for the best when it comes to our kids.
Best,
Lynn
> DD does not have limits about drugs, sex and rock and roll. <g> SheThat's great. I'm happy that your daughter has such a good value
> *chooses* not to do drugs or become sexually active... I do not have
> to tell her not to; it's all in her value system and what she has
> learned from us, her parents.
system. You're obviously doing something right. Growing up, I also
learned values from my parents in terms
of how to live and I'm very thankful for the lessons, for they still guide
me to this day. I think that at some point, most kids do want to stretch
their wings and try new things. It's normal. Some kids will do this in a
responisble way, some won't and some kids' behavior will fall somewhere in
between. My point is, though, that I don't think one can always make
blanket statements such as "kids who grow up w/limits placed on them will
go wild first chance they get and make bad choices" or "kids who grow up
guided by thoughtful parents who trust them to make good decisions for
themselves will grow up accordingly."
I grew up w/some kids who had very strict parents who went wild when they
got out from under their parents' thumbs. I also knew kids who had strict
parents and these kids continued to walk the straight and narrow into
adulthood. I had friends who grew up w/more unschooling type parents and
these kids never learned to set limits for themselves and ended up in bad
situations w/drugs. I also had one friend w/very progressive parents who
gave him a lot of freedom growing up and he was one of the most studious,
responsible guys I knew. So there's no magic formula. We just all do our
best and hope for the best when it comes to our kids.
Best,
Lynn
Lorraine Goods
On Wed, 2 Jan 2002, Leslie Moyer wrote:
person one would ever call a prude! I don't think drinking and having sex
and drinking are bad. I do think that kids junior high school age are too
young to be having sex and getting wasted. I spent time in France as a
teenager and was very impressed that the teens I met there were allowed to
drink wine w/their parents at dinner. It seemed a good way for kids to
learn responsible drinking. I was told by my french hosts that french
teens don't binge on alchol the way american kids do bc of this. However,
when I was older, in college and studying in Paris, I met french students
there who were responsible drinkers and some who weren't, so clearly,
other factors come into play.
I do think that there is such a thing as responsible TV viewing. And when
my son is older (he is five now), he will able to learn what that is as he
gets more freedom in that regard. As for now, I'm hoping that growing up
in our TV-restricted household will teach him how to amuse himself in
other, more healthy ways.
Best,
Lynn
>I'm lauging out loud at that first sentence because I'm really the last
> Second, there will certainly be people that disagree with you that
> "drinking" and "having sex" are bad. Heck--I do both from time to time and
> seem to handle them just fine. :-) I would guess that, since you have
> children, that you've done at least one of them at some time. :-) So what
> you may be asking is about *responsible* drinking and *responsible* sex.
> Would it follow for you that there is such a thing as *responsible* TV
> viewing?
person one would ever call a prude! I don't think drinking and having sex
and drinking are bad. I do think that kids junior high school age are too
young to be having sex and getting wasted. I spent time in France as a
teenager and was very impressed that the teens I met there were allowed to
drink wine w/their parents at dinner. It seemed a good way for kids to
learn responsible drinking. I was told by my french hosts that french
teens don't binge on alchol the way american kids do bc of this. However,
when I was older, in college and studying in Paris, I met french students
there who were responsible drinkers and some who weren't, so clearly,
other factors come into play.
I do think that there is such a thing as responsible TV viewing. And when
my son is older (he is five now), he will able to learn what that is as he
gets more freedom in that regard. As for now, I'm hoping that growing up
in our TV-restricted household will teach him how to amuse himself in
other, more healthy ways.
Best,
Lynn