Joseph Fuerst

>
> Thanks for your response, Mimi. I've always felt guilty for thinking
> I'm a better mother than my own mother and in fact, when I first read
> your statement to that effect the other day, it bugged me that you
> said that. But then, when I re-read it again in this post (below) I
> thought, ya know... she's exactly right! I've been trying to believe
> that she (MY mom) did the best she could for us under her
> circumstances. But ya know what? She *didn't* do the best she
> could.... she took a part time job to get *away* from all of us
> (there were five) because she never got any help from my dDad. We
> were left to raise ourselves. Your mom threw water on your son. My
> mom poured a glass of milk over my brother's head while he was
> strapped in his high chair (this was ages ago... WHY do I so vividly
> remember it!).
> (pause)
>
> Damn... and although I haven't poured milk on anybody or thrown water
> in the girls' faces, I have done my fair share of poor-parenting. I'm
> outta here for tonight... gotta go mend some fences and work on my
> parenting skills.
> (*still* searching for the parenting manual that was supposed to be
> given out at childbirth)
> Sarah
> ~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
> Sarah Carothers
> puddles@...
>
>
Why is it that we're (people in general) reduced to being our parents
children even after we've grown up? It is rare to find the adult
child/adult parent relationship that honors each other as adults.
The wounds inflicted (knowingly or not) by parents seem to linger at
least a lifetime. Have you found families you actually have friendships
with who have manged to develop adult-adult relationships with grown
children?
And Sarah....I'm so glad you are able to admit your own mistakes. I,
too, sometimes find myself falling way short of my ideal in loving and
nurturing my children. It usually happens when I get off center, out of
balance, sleep deprived. I wonder how my children will remember these
incidents.
Just curious, do we (on this list) expect our children to have close
relationships with us when they're grown up?
Susan....ramblings of the day

Sarah Carothers

Hi Susan,
I totally expect to have very close ties with my dd's when they're
grown up. In thinking about all my hsing mom-friends, it seems we all
have struggles with our moms. It's also pretty clear that we're all
striving to not repeat the same patterns that put us in this
position.
My oldest is now a teen, 15 and we're going through that stage where
she's a goddess and I'm poison :( but compared to others I have
observed, we have a milder case of this than most. It's very
disturbing to me even though I know it's just a stage because I
*want* to be a part of her life. So, for now, I have to choose my
battles because in the end, I want to be able to go to lunch with my
adult children and laugh and tell secrets and all that good stuff. I
don't want to alienate her now just to make a point.
Maybe one day *we'll* stroll in the grocery store together and have
a good time even there!
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...


On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:00:32 -0500, Joseph Fuerst wrote:
>Just curious, do we (on this list) expect our children to
>have close
>relationships with us when they're grown up?
>Susan....ramblings of the day
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>Why is it that we're (people in general) reduced to being our parents
>children even after we've grown up? It is rare to find the adult
>child/adult parent relationship that honors each other as adults.

My mother and I relate as adults. And so do my daughter and I. Her
father, on the other hand, has yet to learn that she is no longer a
child. It's kind of ironic. He spent her childhood trying to turn her
against me. And now she and I are *much* closer than they are. She's
actually had to write him out of her life a few times already.

> The wounds inflicted (knowingly or not) by parents seem to linger at
>least a lifetime. Have you found families you actually have friendships
>with who have manged to develop adult-adult relationships with grown
>children?

I'd say that we've got that with all three of our grown kids. We're still
parents, and we still worry about them, but we do our best to only *offer*
advice, in the sense that they are free to accept or reject without hurting
our feelings. (And we're not perfect at this. The "kids" know we're
trying though.)

> Just curious, do we (on this list) expect our children to have close
>relationships with us when they're grown up?

I certainly always have, and it's worked. (And the older ones all went to
school.)
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Helen Hegener

At 11:00 AM -0500 12/28/01, Joseph Fuerst wrote:
> Just curious, do we (on this list) expect our children to have close
>relationships with us when they're grown up?

I always expected a close relationship with my kids when they were
grown, and so far we have just that, even though three of them live
quite a ways away (two in Alaska, one 60+ miles away), and the other
two are gone more than they're home most of the time.

What do I mean by close? Well... I was visiting the kids in Alaska
just before Christmas and we were out doing some Christmas shopping;
I was picking out one of those noisy-obnoxious kinds of toys grandmas
love to give grandkids when my oldest son grabbed me from behind,
lifted me right up off my feet with a big bearhug, and said "Mom, I
love you to pieces but if you get that for my daughter I'm going to
mail both it and her down to YOU!" <BWG>

So I snuck back the next day, bought the noisemaker, wrapped it up
and tucked it under the tree for HIM to open on Christmas - after I'd
left! <ggg>

Right now I'm waiting for Jim, the son who lives 60 miles away, to
show up with his family. I was over at their place last night (yeah,
we all travel A LOT), and thought about just spending the night
there, but it was a beautiful clear moonlit night and the drive
between here and there is through some of the most beautiful
mountains anywhere, over the highest pass in the state... (and
besides, there's nothing like one's *own* bed and snugglies <g>)

I'd been home about ten minutes when the phone rang. It was Jim, just
checking to make sure I'd made it home safely. Mark said it was his
third call, and on his call before that he'd said he was giving me
another half hour before he started out looking for me. (Yes, I carry
a cellphone, but it doesn't work out in those mountains.)

I credit my parents with teaching me how to parent. What goes around
comes around.

Helen

Sarah Carothers

I appreciate hearing about your family, Helen. So let's hope that
all of us ladies here who are trying to break a bad cycle will be
successful! Ya gotta start somewhere... why not within?
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...


On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 10:11:02 -0800, Helen Hegener wrote:
>
>I credit my parents with teaching me how to parent. What goes
>around
>comes around.
>
>Helen
>




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Mimi Moorehead

> At 11:00 AM -0500 12/28/01, Joseph Fuerst wrote:
>> Just curious, do we (on this list) expect our children to have
>> close
>> relationships with us when they're grown up?
>
Yes. My husband and I are very close to our boys now and we hope to
remain so forever. My husband had an extremely close and beautiful
relationship with his "Pop" (his step-grandfather). My husband was
raised by this wonderful man. I credit him for the fact that my husband
is such an excellent and loving father. Wes, my husband, was very lucky
to have his Pop. He's been gone now for over 25 years, and Wes still
misses him terribly. I'm quite certain that my boys will be just as
close to my husband as he was to his Pop. I have learned a lot from my
husband about how to be a loving and caring parent.

Mimi


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kolleen

>Why is it that we're (people in general) reduced to being our parents
>children even after we've grown up? It is rare to find the adult
>child/adult parent relationship that honors each other as adults.

I think this has to do with how much damage was done and how much
insecurities it caused.
I spent many years oblivious of my own insecurities, still trying to get
my 'mother's approval'.

Now I've been working on cutting that line for many years. Sometimes, I
don't always keep my confidence and her words shake me. Sometimes, I can
shake them off.

> The wounds inflicted (knowingly or not) by parents seem to linger at
>least a lifetime. Have you found families you actually have friendships
>with who have manged to develop adult-adult relationships with grown
>children?

We were five children. My mother favoured her only son and my sister that
is just older than I. The reasons for this weren't obvious until I was
older and understood intergenerational actions better.

My sister mentioned above has that kind of relationship with our mom. I
think its because my mom *likes* her, not just *loves* her.

My mom has stated that she loves all her children, but doesn't like all
of them. This must have a lot to do with it.

> And Sarah....I'm so glad you are able to admit your own mistakes. I,
>too, sometimes find myself falling way short of my ideal in loving and
>nurturing my children. It usually happens when I get off center, out of
>balance, sleep deprived. I wonder how my children will remember these
>incidents.

While spending some time with my niece and her two children recently. We
were talking about this. She laughed and said *don't stress over things
you say, when your son is older and on Oprah and talking about how you
messed up his life, he's going to mention things you don't remember.. out
of left field.. not the stuff that YOU think he's going to remember*

we both laughed. I think she has a point.

> Just curious, do we (on this list) expect our children to have close
>relationships with us when they're grown up?
>Susan....ramblings of the day

At the risk of started a very heated thread, I'm going to speak my mind.
*smile*

I expect to be close to my son, but not as close as if he were a
daughter. yes, yes, it sounds so chauvanistic, but this is how I see it.

In MOST homes, the woman takes on most of the responsibility of
child-rearing and house-keeping regardless of who is the breadwinner. Its
just how it is. Women seem to be able to juggle much better. And if the
childhood was decent, she'll model her mother.

Since I don't want to be one of THOSE meddling, disapproving MIL, I have
to remind myself that it will be his wife that will carry the flavour of
education etc of the grandkids.

Of course, I still want to keep the laughter and be as involved as I am
welcome to be. But not at the risk of causing stress between a couple.
damn, its hard enough!

btw: My son at 5yo asks me all the time 'how do i know when i pick a wife
if she will have a good heart or a black heart, how do you tell?'

I dont' have an answer for him.

regards,
kolleen

Cindy

Kolleen wrote:
>
> >Why is it that we're (people in general) reduced to being our parents
> >children even after we've grown up? It is rare to find the adult
> >child/adult parent relationship that honors each other as adults.
>
> I think this has to do with how much damage was done and how much
> insecurities it caused.
> I spent many years oblivious of my own insecurities, still trying to get
> my 'mother's approval'.
>
> Now I've been working on cutting that line for many years. Sometimes, I
> don't always keep my confidence and her words shake me. Sometimes, I can
> shake them off.
>
Me too! They want to visit some time this winter. I'm still not sure how
to handle it. The last time they were here, my father and I got into a
really nasty fight. On one hand I don't care to have one again, OTOH it
was the first honest conversation I've had with either of my parents in my
life. My mother's comment in talking about visiting again was that we
should never, ever have another fight like that.

> My sister mentioned above has that kind of relationship with our mom. I
> think its because my mom *likes* her, not just *loves* her.
>
My sister and my mother have a close relationship. But my sister is a
chameleon - she becomes whatever the situation needs her to be in order
to get along. I am either me or I'm in my shell hiding from it all!

One time when I was bemoaning the fact that my children won't have a
neat grandmother like I did (my DH's mother died before I met him) my DH
said "our kids don't need a neat grandmother like you did. You are a
better mother than your mother was." Some days I believe him and others
I'm not so sure! But I think it's the not so sure part that really counts.
I question my parenting and strive to get better - my mother *knows* she's
been a good mother to us all.

--

Cindy Ferguson
crma@...

Tia Leschke

At 01:27 PM 28/12/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>I appreciate hearing about your family, Helen. So let's hope that
>all of us ladies here who are trying to break a bad cycle will be
>successful! Ya gotta start somewhere... why not within?

I'm quite sure you'll be successful.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Mimi Moorehead

>>
>> Thanks for your response, Mimi. I've always felt guilty for thinking
>> I'm a better mother than my own mother and in fact, when I first read
>> your statement to that effect the other day, it bugged me that you
>> said that.
================
Yes, I thought it might bother some people, but it is my truth. I
sometimes feel guilty about how I feel about her and it makes me sad
that I don't have a good relationship with her. But, I've never felt
guilty about believing I'm a better mother.
================
>>
>> Damn... and although I haven't poured milk on anybody or thrown water
>> in the girls' faces, I have done my fair share of poor-parenting. Sarah
=================
Oh yeah, me too. I'm far from perfect but I'm always trying to do
what's best. I'll lose my cool sometimes and start yelling, or
whatever. I'm not proud of it, but at least I know I'm wrong and I try
my best to avoid making such mistakes and have more patience. My
mother, on the other hand, would never admit she did something wrong and
her offenses are far greater than mine.
>>
Mimi


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