Joseph Fuerst

> So, please explain where I go from here. I'm feeling like backing off
> and letting him do whatever he chooses for a while. I've tried it,
> but then I start feeling like he needs to learn, or should I say, do
> academics. My husband's attitude about that may tend to sway me in
> that direction more than I tend to want to go. My son is intelligent,
> has big ideas, but has trouble implementing. I think in time,
> however, he will do great things so I'm not sure why I'm concerned.
>
I think what you describe here....the wanting to back off, but fearing your
son will learn nothing.....is *the* main struggle for parents in
unschooling, especially at the beginning. I would suggest you breathe
deeply, examine your fears, and try to let them go. In addition, read
about natural learning (unschooling.com, John Holt) and think about your
own *best* learning experiences.

This is a journey. Maybe you will start down a path and re-direct
yourself...that's great...you're also learning all the time. Be an example.

Susan

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/28/01 2:32:29 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> They were chatting and smiling and
> clearly enjoying each others' company. I was green with envy but I
> also wanted to go up to them and tell them how lucky they are! It's
> just not meant to be for me (and you? :( ) but one thing is sure...
> I'm going to do all I can to not repeat the same mistakes with my own
> girls.
>
> I hope to have a great relationship w/ my dd as well. My mother doesn't
understand why we don't,of course it is all me and something is wrong w/ me.
We can sit and have tea and chat,I keep my opinions to myself and listen
mostly. She is like a strong cup of espresso you try and drink. Just can't do
it often.

NICKI~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/28/01 2:32:29 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> About 2 years ago she threw a
> glass of water in Leroy's face because he was crying.

Awful.

NICKI~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joseph Fuerst

Hey Tia,
I've probably delted the earlier message ...having a hard time keeping up
here due to chaos on the home front! We were on the subject of late
readers.
I feel a "spell" coming on with being frustrated with 10yo dd's
inability to read. With four youngsters vying for my attentions, I'm not
always able to read over her shoulder so she can do things she wants to do.
For example, she wanted to load a new computer game....I was nursing the
baby. A window came up and she wanted to know what to do. I couldn't help
her because I couldn't read the screen. This causes me to wonder if I'm
capable of giving her what she needs in this direction. My attention is
often quite divide. Following through on what she wants to do/explore is
difficult with balancing everyone's needs. It is especially worse when I'm
out-of-synch and sleep deprived as of late.
I'm in no way questioning unschooling and appreciate your tale of
regretting sort of forcing the issue when your son was 12. I really don't
understand why she doesn't *want* to read. Maybe it's a dependence issue?
(Maybe that's just mommy guilt for having worked FT when she was a baby)
Maybe there's something I can't see that hinders her ability. One mom at a
homeschooling program we attend thinks it's a "processing" issue since her
comprehension skills are clearly evident (but she's a school-at-homer). I
find myself trying hard to not be sarcastic with her when I'm totally
frustrated....somehow I'm sure sarcasm doesn't help!
I thinkher inability to read hinders her...in her areas of interest,
she could develop more if she could read. (I.E., she loves logic puzzles
etc. She gets Mathmania. and does great, but needs me to read the
instuctions for most of it.)
Susan....frustrated and hoping to weather the storm in my dd's best
interest!

> Also, you say that he doesn't want to read anymore. Does he do any
reading
> at all? I ask because my 14 yo son doesn't appear to read at all, but I
> finally realized how much he's actually reading in his bike magazines and
> on the web. He won't read fiction because he can't read fast enough to
> really get what he's reading, but the non-fiction stuff within his
> interests is doable for him. Maybe you need to really look at what he
does
> read, or maybe offer him reading material according to his
> interests. Magazines are available for almost any interest.
> Tia
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:46:25 -0500
> From: Sarah Carothers <puddles@...>
> Subject: Re: I have picked up the book I never got a chance to really read
Quit School and
>
> Hi Debbie,
> My oldest dd is 15 and imo it's harder for the teens to get together.
> In our case, dd has met friends through her dance and gymnastics
> classes. Also, the internet happens to be a 'hangout' for kids that I
> know. They create these elaborate webpages and other kids surf in on
> them (I can't quite grasp how they network but anyway...). While I
> advocate safety for teens on the net and using extreme caution, dd
> has met some nice friends (but not IRL ones) this way.
> Once your son finds outside interest that school would have otherwise
> prevented him from doing or attending, he'll probably meet other guys
> who have similar interests. Perhaps he'll meet a mentor-type person
> who's not the same age but it won't matter!
> I won't say that the social life of a hsed kid is the same as a ps
> kid.... the kids I know are vastly different. Having said that, I
> think the hs situation is preferable over the other one because the
> kids are able to effectively communicate with a wide range of ages.
> AND, best of all, they learn to feel comfortable with themselves..
> all alone, doing solitary activities and not feeling dependent on
> someone else.
> Sarah
> ~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
> Sarah Carothers
> puddles@...
>
>
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:10:04 -0800 (PST), debbie jones wrote:
> >We have found a hs group just recently, and my younger son, 12,
> >is enjoying it, but there are no real teens my 14yo son's age. I
> >think if he found other boys who don't attent ps, it would be
> >good for him. He's quite mature for his age so 12yo's may be on a
> >different level than what he would choose. I am going to continue
> >to work to find other kids his age and take care of his lonliness
> >he says he has.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 23:51:51 -0500
> From: Sarah Carothers <puddles@...>
> Subject: Re: mothers
>
> :-))) <BWG>
> Tonight, I baked a cake from scratch with youngest dd. We measured,
> sifted, beat... you name it, we did it. We *even* cut out the wax
> paper liners for the bottoms of the cake pans like Granny used to do!
> Then it came time to ice the three-layer cake.
> LOLOLOLOLOLOL.......................
> There's blue tinted icing and rose tinted icing all OVER the counter.
> We ran out of icing so only half the cake is decorated. My kitchen is
> a disaster zone! I think I just made up for all my poor parenting
> tonight... DD had a blast!
> Taking cake orders... call early to get our most 'creative'
> creations!
> <g>Sarah
> ~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
> Sarah Carothers
> puddles@...
>
>
> On Thu, 27 Dec 01 22:20:15 -0500, Kolleen wrote:
> >
> >Keep observing and keep learning.
> >
> >I've come to realize that the manual is in the form of
> >experience, hence
> >why the midwives, the hospitals or the doulas don't give them out
> >*smile*.
> >
> >warm regards,
> >kolleen
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:42:28 -0800
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> Subject: Re: I have picked up the book I never got a chance to really read
Quit School and
>
>
> >
> >We have found a hs group just recently, and my younger son, 12, is
> >enjoying it, but there are no real teens my 14yo son's age. I think if he
> >found other boys who don't attent ps, it would be good for him. He's
quite
> >mature for his age so 12yo's may be on a different level than what he
> >would choose. I am going to continue to work to find other kids his age
> >and take care of his lonliness he says he has. I honestly think this has
> >been a big adjustment for him and he doesn't feel right about not
> >attenting ps. Hopefully, time will change that.
>
> Maybe instead of, or in addition to, looking for a hs group with teens,
you
> need to help him find some other computer geeks to hang with. Most older
> hs tend to gravitate toward people with the same interests rather than
just
> other hs.
> Tia
>
> No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
> Eleanor Roosevelt
> *********************************************
> Tia Leschke
> leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 22:20:11 -0700
> From: freeform@...
> Subject: Re: I have picked up the book I never got a chance to really read
Quit School and
>
>
>
> On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:42:28 -0800 Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> writes:
> > Maybe instead of, or in addition to, looking for a hs group with teens,
> you
> > need to help him find some other computer geeks to hang with. Most
> older
> > hs tend to gravitate toward people with the same interests rather
> > than just other hs.
>
> There's also a message board for teens at unschooling.com....
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 01:26:17 -0600
> From: Mimi Moorehead <groundhoggirl@...>
> Subject: Re: I have picked up the book I never got a chance to really read
Quit School and
>
> Hi,
>
> Sorry if it was me that seemed to ridicule you. I never intentionally
> mean to do that. When I post, it's usually just to share my experiences.
>
> I'm sure that either Tia, Sarah Carothers, Lovemary or Kolleen will be
> more help to you than I can be, but I'll try.
>
> First of all, have you read the standard unschooling books by John Holt,
> Grace Llewellyn, etc.? If you haven't, you should do so. Also,
> understand what "deschooling" is. I understand it requires an awful lot
> of patience and a lot of time. It depends on the child, but deschooling
> can take years. Remember he has been in school for close to 10 years,
> constantly being told what to do, when to do it, how to do it, how much
> time he has to do it in, and, even, with whom to do it. He's not used
> to self-initiating those types of activities which most people would
> consider to be learning activities. He has been taught for many years
> that learning is WORK and that it is unpleasant because it has been
> forced upon him. So, it's only natural he would have an aversion to
> activities that many would consider educational.
>
> Unschooling is all about respecting your child's choices and trusting
> the fact that he will learn, on his own, what is best for him.
>
> Didn't you say that your son was into computer programming? Well, let
> him do that - all day long, all year long, if that's what he wants to
> do. He can learn an awful lot from that.
>
> This is what unschooling is to me: I basically leave my kids alone and
> let them do what they want to do. I rarely tell them to do anything
> (unless it has to do with their physical health, which is a big factor
> with my kids). I consciously try to involve myself in as many active
> (not passive) activities as possible. I am modeling for my kids. I
> hope they join me, and they often do. I answer all their questions (and
> there are very many of them), which often lead into pretty deep
> discussions (these are definitely learning moments). I find the long
> and more interesting discussions are in the car, where they are captive
> and have few distractions.
>
> I will now go through your post and interject my thoughts. Please don't
> think I am being critical or I am ridiculing you. I'm just giving you
> my ideas and am trying to help in the best way that I can. If we don't
> answer your questions, then you must keep asking and maybe be more
> specific, or word your question in another way.
>
> On Thursday, December 27, 2001, at 06:53 PM, dljones0 wrote:
>
> > Get a Life. I feel so far that what I am reading feels more like my
> > style, but it's so unnatural for me since it's not the way I was
> > raised.
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++=
> I wasn't raised this way either. I read "Learning all the Time" by John
> Holt and it really changed the way I looked at how children learn. Read
> that book if you haven't yet. Also read Alice Miller's "Thou Shall Not
> Be Aware" (I think that's the title - it's been a few years since I read
> it). Sorry if this sounds maudlin, but I have many faults and have had
> many failures. I have analyzed them and tried to figure out where they
> came from and how they came about. Of course, it all stems from my
> childhood and my mother's parenting style which was almost the exact
> opposite of unschooling. I consider unschooling to be more of a style
> of parenting (or lifestyle) than purely a method of educating my
> children. Unschooling encourages a child to grow up to be a happy,
> self-confident, auto-didactic, self-regulating, self-entertaining,
> curious and a self-assured person. If a person is lucky enough to have
> some or all of those traits then that person's education will be a
> natural and painless part of his/her life and s/he will be learning all
> the time.
>
> So, I have looked at the way I was raised and determined what was done
> wrong and have chosen to raise my children in a different way which
> happens to be unschooling.
> +++++++++++++++++++++=
> > My son didn't do well with the traditional school setting,
> > and I think the best thing I can do for him is to try to offer him
> > some alternatives until we find one that works for him and makes him
> > happy. Since quitting school in April, I am wondering if he needs
> > more time to deschool because academics is just not setting well with
> > him at all.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++
> That's not even nine months. I would probably wait at least another
> year before I would even think about introducing academics to him again,
> if ever. Deschooling can take a long time and requires a lot of
> patience on your part. You have to totally change your ideas of what
> learning really is and how it happens. Personally, I don't think that
> academics are that important yet at age 14. He has his whole life ahead
> of him to learn those things, if he wishes.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > He has just been diagnosed with ADD-inattentive type, so
> > I know that hasn't helped his self-esteem, and he says he can't pick
> > up a book because he can't retain anything he reads. That is so
> > different for him, because he always used to love reading.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Is he referring to textbook reading or reading for pleasure? Can he
> read some entertaining fiction? Perhaps you can introduce him to some
> books about subjects he has an interest in, like computer programming,
> sports (if that's what he's into), etc.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > What I would love is encouragement, advice on unschooling, and please
> > no ridiculing because it's not as easy for me to just jump in like
> > some of the rest of you who have done it for so long.
> ++++++++++++++++++++
> I encourage you to read the unschooling books as well as past issues of
> "Growing Without Schooling". I learned a lot from them. Also, see if
> you can make friends with another family that is unschooling and spend
> time with them and learn from them. This is what I have done. I also
> hope you stay with this list. Read the posts and ask as many questions
> as you need to. I think its wonderful you are considering unschooling
> for your son. All children should be so lucky.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++
> > I really admire
> > this way of learning instead of having everything shoved down their
> > throats. I grew up thinking we had to be pushed all the time and
> > never had the opportunity to just sit back and make the decision on
> > my own to learn when I wanted to.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Yes! And, not only when you wanted to but also what you wanted to.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Therefore, it makes me think that
> > most children need a little bit of a constant push to continue acting
> > responsibly, which means doing homework, etc. I thought this was part
> > of being a parent and guiding your children to become well behaved,
> > responsible adults.
> > ++++++++++++++++++++
> I think a child can learn about responsibility from watching the parents
> do responsible things. It's all about modeling. Kids learn a lot from
> that. They don't have to be taught. They just have to see you do it.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++
> > So, please explain where I go from here. I'm feeling like backing off
> > and letting him do whatever he chooses for a while.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> I think that is exactly what you should do. Try and relax (I know it's
> hard). Just let him hang out and have fun. Let him do his computer
> programming. I don't know what your relationship is like with him, but
> do you think you two could do stuff together like go camping or do some
> traveling together. I would spend lots of time with him and maybe see
> if you can strengthen your relationship. Just have lots of fun with him
> and FORGET school and academics. Concentrate on being HAPPY!!!
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > I've tried it,
> > but then I start feeling like he needs to learn, or should I say, do
> > academics. My husband's attitude about that may tend to sway me in
> > that direction more than I tend to want to go. My son is intelligent,
> > has big ideas, but has trouble implementing.
> +++++++++++++++++++
> He has big ideas!!! That's great!! I wish I had any ideas at all when
> I was 14. If he has big ideas then he has goals. He has something in
> mind that he wants to accomplish. I would love to know what his goals
> are. I hope you share them with us.
>
> Think back to all the courses you took in high school and all those
> hours you spent in the classroom and all that homework you did. Do you
> remember much of it? Do you really feel that it was all that
> important? I'm sure there were a few things that may have been
> worthwhile, but you probably could have learned it on your own in a
> fraction of the time it took you to have it forced into you by the
> school.
>
> I suggest you think happy and positive thoughts and think about how
> lucky your son is that he doesn't have to waste his time in a school.
> Think about how lucky you are to have him around all day. How you can
> enjoy each other's company, etc. Join homeschooling groups in your area
> and introduce him to new people. Give him the opportunity to make new
> friends.
>
> With regard to your husband, I have the same problem. I suggest you try
> and educate him as best you can about unschooling. Get a hold of old
> "Growing Without Schooling" magazines, read them and share the articles
> with him. Have them in the bathroom, so he can read them there too. My
> husband has come a long way, but we still have to compromise. My boys
> and I have come out on top though.
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > I think in time,
> > however, he will do great things so I'm not sure why I'm concerned.
> > +++++++++++++++++++++
> He's lucky to have a mother with so much confidence in him. Just keep
> thinking that way and try to relax.
>
> I hope I have helped a little bit.
>
> I hope you stay on this list. Ask for support and information. This
> list can be very helpful.
>
> Mimi
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> Mimi
> Mama of Leroy & Paul, born 01/10/94
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Helen Hegener

>At 2:35 PM -0500 12/28/01, Joseph Fuerst wrote:
> I feel a "spell" coming on with being frustrated with 10yo dd's
>inability to read.

Ah, Susan, I can certainly relate to your frustration. I've been
trying to be patient with my youngest son, Michael, who still isn't
showing much interest in reading at the grand old age of - brace
yourselves, dear readers - 16 next week. No, that's not a slip of the
keys...

This kid lives to snowboard - and not much else. As I'm writing this
he, his cousin, and his best buddy are stalking around the house
barefooted but with their full snowboarding regalia dropped down
around their waists - they've taken a pizza break from hitting jumps
down in the creek...

I try not to be concerned, as his three older brothers all went
through the same thing, and all are excellent readers now, but the
worst (?) of them was reading by the time he was 14 (and I thought
that was unheard of...). This kid's two years behind the mark and
going for some kind of record!

Helen