Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] I have picked up the book I never got a chance to really read Quit School and
[email protected]
On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:53:12 -0000 "dljones0" <dljones0@...>
writes:
Holt's books. Immerse yourself in unschooling, so that it starts to seem
natural - it is natural, but people have been telling you your whole life
that it won't work, that you must force academics or kids won't learn
anything. You know in your heart that that's not true, but you worry...
When you find youself worrying about your son not doing "academics",
stop, take a breath, and read some more Holt. Try not to pass your
anxieties on to your son - he's probably got enough of them after
spending so long in the system. Tell him that we think he's doing fine,
and whatever he chooses to do is right for him. He can't fail anymore,
there is no failure here.
Invite him to try some stuff out. Read the paper, bring up some of the
things you find - maybe spelunking, an improv group, a museum showing.
Talk about your passions - if you can't think of any, develop some.
Nurturing your own passions is important, you're modeling this for your
son. Ariel Gore once said, "Children deserve interesting parents." Do
your "thing".
Sometimes, when I worry, I remind myself that a 14 yr old can learn K-8
math in 6 weeks without too much trouble. "Academics" don't take anywhere
near as long as the schools spend on them. I think of an unschooled 11 yr
old I know, who had done pretty much nothing at all academic and had
actually just learned to read the year before. He ended up having to go
to school for 5th grade - long story, but he spend 3 months working with
a tutor and then entered 5th grade and did great.
If your son says he wants to read but find it difficult now, maybe he
needs new things to read. How about Mad magazine, Calvin and Hobbes,
Larry Gonick's History of the Universe?
Have you joined a support group? Is it the right one? I've noticed that a
lot of the younger kids seem to look up to pre-teen and teen boys in some
of the groups we've joined. Maybe it would help him to interact with kids
who have never been to school, and maybe slightly younger kids would be
less intimidating than kids his age.
Just some ideas,
Dar
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writes:
> So, please explain where I go from here. I'm feeling like backing offRead. Keep reading - here, unschooling.com, Grace Llewellyn's books, John
> and letting him do whatever he chooses for a while. I've tried it,
> but then I start feeling like he needs to learn, or should I say, do
> academics.
Holt's books. Immerse yourself in unschooling, so that it starts to seem
natural - it is natural, but people have been telling you your whole life
that it won't work, that you must force academics or kids won't learn
anything. You know in your heart that that's not true, but you worry...
When you find youself worrying about your son not doing "academics",
stop, take a breath, and read some more Holt. Try not to pass your
anxieties on to your son - he's probably got enough of them after
spending so long in the system. Tell him that we think he's doing fine,
and whatever he chooses to do is right for him. He can't fail anymore,
there is no failure here.
Invite him to try some stuff out. Read the paper, bring up some of the
things you find - maybe spelunking, an improv group, a museum showing.
Talk about your passions - if you can't think of any, develop some.
Nurturing your own passions is important, you're modeling this for your
son. Ariel Gore once said, "Children deserve interesting parents." Do
your "thing".
Sometimes, when I worry, I remind myself that a 14 yr old can learn K-8
math in 6 weeks without too much trouble. "Academics" don't take anywhere
near as long as the schools spend on them. I think of an unschooled 11 yr
old I know, who had done pretty much nothing at all academic and had
actually just learned to read the year before. He ended up having to go
to school for 5th grade - long story, but he spend 3 months working with
a tutor and then entered 5th grade and did great.
If your son says he wants to read but find it difficult now, maybe he
needs new things to read. How about Mad magazine, Calvin and Hobbes,
Larry Gonick's History of the Universe?
Have you joined a support group? Is it the right one? I've noticed that a
lot of the younger kids seem to look up to pre-teen and teen boys in some
of the groups we've joined. Maybe it would help him to interact with kids
who have never been to school, and maybe slightly younger kids would be
less intimidating than kids his age.
Just some ideas,
Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Kolleen
>dljones0 writes:[snip]
>What I would love is encouragement, advice on unschooling, and please
>no ridiculing because it's not as easy for me to just jump in like
>some of the rest of you who have done it for so long.
debbie, I sure hope that the advice on this list doesn't sound
ridiculing. this is a great place to get encouragement, just keep posting
your concerns and your fears. sometimes, buttons are pressed, but its not
done with malice.
>have your talked with your son yet debbie? did you ask him how he wants
>So, please explain where I go from here. I'm feeling like backing off
>and letting him do whatever he chooses for a while. I've tried it,
>but then I start feeling like he needs to learn, or should I say, do
>academics. My husband's attitude about that may tend to sway me in
>that direction more than I tend to want to go. My son is intelligent,
>has big ideas, but has trouble implementing. I think in time,
>however, he will do great things so I'm not sure why I'm concerned.
to spend his days?
this is the best place to start. get a feeling for what HE wants, and
then we can suggest and help you better.
somehow I get the feeling that this 'label' has hurt your son. you say he
doesn't want to read anymore.. and he used to.
the first thing you need is to have a conversation with him, then talk it
out with people here.
we'd love to hear from you and hear about what your son says after your
talk.
good luck,
kolleen
Tia Leschke
>I wonder if he really understands what it means. I've read that most
>somehow I get the feeling that this 'label' has hurt your son. you say he
>doesn't want to read anymore.. and he used to.
people find it a huge relief to find out that there's a reason for their
difficulties other than the laziness that others might have accused them
of. Maybe he believes that people with ADD aren't smart. You could help
that by searching for one of those lists of famous people, many of them
obviously smart, who are ADD.
Also, you say that he doesn't want to read anymore. Does he do any reading
at all? I ask because my 14 yo son doesn't appear to read at all, but I
finally realized how much he's actually reading in his bike magazines and
on the web. He won't read fiction because he can't read fast enough to
really get what he's reading, but the non-fiction stuff within his
interests is doable for him. Maybe you need to really look at what he does
read, or maybe offer him reading material according to his
interests. Magazines are available for almost any interest.
Tia
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
debbie jones
Thank you very much Dar and Kolleen! I'm sorry but the name of the book I'm reading is The Liberation Handbook. I probably confused you earlier. It is so SENSIBLE.
I have spoken to my son. I know exactly what he wants to do and has for years, computer programming. I told him today that I'm leaving him in charge of what he wants to do, and he chose another programming course. He has always taken academics very seriously and the last two years in ps left him feeling very inadequate and not knowing why. He read a book called The End of Homework about a year ago and told me to also. I did. He then asked me to let him homeschool. He told me that he just did a lot of busy work at school and couldn't see why he needed to do stuff he already knew. I chuckled at first, but I've always admired him for seeing the big picture and always made so much sense. Since we found that he had trouble with focusing and was inconsistent in his math, forgetful and always was, etc. we had him tested and diagnosed with ADD. I wonder about these labels too, and it doesn't exactly make him feel much better, but he says if they can give him something to take care of the concentration problem, fine. I have always seen him as a very intuitive, bright boy and we have always had a very good, open relationship. He feels he can talk to me and does, so I feel quite lucky.
We have found a hs group just recently, and my younger son, 12, is enjoying it, but there are no real teens my 14yo son's age. I think if he found other boys who don't attent ps, it would be good for him. He's quite mature for his age so 12yo's may be on a different level than what he would choose. I am going to continue to work to find other kids his age and take care of his lonliness he says he has. I honestly think this has been a big adjustment for him and he doesn't feel right about not attenting ps. Hopefully, time will change that.
I will have to get those Holt books, as I've been meaning to for quite some time. Homeschooling should be more relaxed than it has been so far, worrying about if we covered this, covered that. In MA, we have to be able to show documentation such as progress reports at the end of each year and I don't know how to do that if we unschool.
Thank you again very much. I am starting to see the light finally.
Debbie
Kolleen <Kolleen@...> wrote: >dljones0 writes:
debbie, I sure hope that the advice on this list doesn't sound
ridiculing. this is a great place to get encouragement, just keep posting
your concerns and your fears. sometimes, buttons are pressed, but its not
done with malice.
to spend his days?
this is the best place to start. get a feeling for what HE wants, and
then we can suggest and help you better.
somehow I get the feeling that this 'label' has hurt your son. you say he
doesn't want to read anymore.. and he used to.
the first thing you need is to have a conversation with him, then talk it
out with people here.
we'd love to hear from you and hear about what your son says after your
talk.
good luck,
kolleen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have spoken to my son. I know exactly what he wants to do and has for years, computer programming. I told him today that I'm leaving him in charge of what he wants to do, and he chose another programming course. He has always taken academics very seriously and the last two years in ps left him feeling very inadequate and not knowing why. He read a book called The End of Homework about a year ago and told me to also. I did. He then asked me to let him homeschool. He told me that he just did a lot of busy work at school and couldn't see why he needed to do stuff he already knew. I chuckled at first, but I've always admired him for seeing the big picture and always made so much sense. Since we found that he had trouble with focusing and was inconsistent in his math, forgetful and always was, etc. we had him tested and diagnosed with ADD. I wonder about these labels too, and it doesn't exactly make him feel much better, but he says if they can give him something to take care of the concentration problem, fine. I have always seen him as a very intuitive, bright boy and we have always had a very good, open relationship. He feels he can talk to me and does, so I feel quite lucky.
We have found a hs group just recently, and my younger son, 12, is enjoying it, but there are no real teens my 14yo son's age. I think if he found other boys who don't attent ps, it would be good for him. He's quite mature for his age so 12yo's may be on a different level than what he would choose. I am going to continue to work to find other kids his age and take care of his lonliness he says he has. I honestly think this has been a big adjustment for him and he doesn't feel right about not attenting ps. Hopefully, time will change that.
I will have to get those Holt books, as I've been meaning to for quite some time. Homeschooling should be more relaxed than it has been so far, worrying about if we covered this, covered that. In MA, we have to be able to show documentation such as progress reports at the end of each year and I don't know how to do that if we unschool.
Thank you again very much. I am starting to see the light finally.
Debbie
Kolleen <Kolleen@...> wrote: >dljones0 writes:
>What I would love is encouragement, advice on unschooling, and please[snip]
>no ridiculing because it's not as easy for me to just jump in like
>some of the rest of you who have done it for so long.
debbie, I sure hope that the advice on this list doesn't sound
ridiculing. this is a great place to get encouragement, just keep posting
your concerns and your fears. sometimes, buttons are pressed, but its not
done with malice.
>have your talked with your son yet debbie? did you ask him how he wants
>So, please explain where I go from here. I'm feeling like backing off
>and letting him do whatever he chooses for a while. I've tried it,
>but then I start feeling like he needs to learn, or should I say, do
>academics. My husband's attitude about that may tend to sway me in
>that direction more than I tend to want to go. My son is intelligent,
>has big ideas, but has trouble implementing. I think in time,
>however, he will do great things so I'm not sure why I'm concerned.
to spend his days?
this is the best place to start. get a feeling for what HE wants, and
then we can suggest and help you better.
somehow I get the feeling that this 'label' has hurt your son. you say he
doesn't want to read anymore.. and he used to.
the first thing you need is to have a conversation with him, then talk it
out with people here.
we'd love to hear from you and hear about what your son says after your
talk.
good luck,
kolleen
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Tia Leschke
>Maybe instead of, or in addition to, looking for a hs group with teens, you
>We have found a hs group just recently, and my younger son, 12, is
>enjoying it, but there are no real teens my 14yo son's age. I think if he
>found other boys who don't attent ps, it would be good for him. He's quite
>mature for his age so 12yo's may be on a different level than what he
>would choose. I am going to continue to work to find other kids his age
>and take care of his lonliness he says he has. I honestly think this has
>been a big adjustment for him and he doesn't feel right about not
>attenting ps. Hopefully, time will change that.
need to help him find some other computer geeks to hang with. Most older
hs tend to gravitate toward people with the same interests rather than just
other hs.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Sarah Carothers
Hi Debbie,
My oldest dd is 15 and imo it's harder for the teens to get together.
In our case, dd has met friends through her dance and gymnastics
classes. Also, the internet happens to be a 'hangout' for kids that I
know. They create these elaborate webpages and other kids surf in on
them (I can't quite grasp how they network but anyway...). While I
advocate safety for teens on the net and using extreme caution, dd
has met some nice friends (but not IRL ones) this way.
Once your son finds outside interest that school would have otherwise
prevented him from doing or attending, he'll probably meet other guys
who have similar interests. Perhaps he'll meet a mentor-type person
who's not the same age but it won't matter!
I won't say that the social life of a hsed kid is the same as a ps
kid.... the kids I know are vastly different. Having said that, I
think the hs situation is preferable over the other one because the
kids are able to effectively communicate with a wide range of ages.
AND, best of all, they learn to feel comfortable with themselves..
all alone, doing solitary activities and not feeling dependent on
someone else.
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
My oldest dd is 15 and imo it's harder for the teens to get together.
In our case, dd has met friends through her dance and gymnastics
classes. Also, the internet happens to be a 'hangout' for kids that I
know. They create these elaborate webpages and other kids surf in on
them (I can't quite grasp how they network but anyway...). While I
advocate safety for teens on the net and using extreme caution, dd
has met some nice friends (but not IRL ones) this way.
Once your son finds outside interest that school would have otherwise
prevented him from doing or attending, he'll probably meet other guys
who have similar interests. Perhaps he'll meet a mentor-type person
who's not the same age but it won't matter!
I won't say that the social life of a hsed kid is the same as a ps
kid.... the kids I know are vastly different. Having said that, I
think the hs situation is preferable over the other one because the
kids are able to effectively communicate with a wide range of ages.
AND, best of all, they learn to feel comfortable with themselves..
all alone, doing solitary activities and not feeling dependent on
someone else.
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:10:04 -0800 (PST), debbie jones wrote:
>We have found a hs group just recently, and my younger son, 12,
>is enjoying it, but there are no real teens my 14yo son's age. I
>think if he found other boys who don't attent ps, it would be
>good for him. He's quite mature for his age so 12yo's may be on a
>different level than what he would choose. I am going to continue
>to work to find other kids his age and take care of his lonliness
>he says he has.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 20:42:28 -0800 Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
writes:
Dar
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writes:
> Maybe instead of, or in addition to, looking for a hs group with teens,you
> need to help him find some other computer geeks to hang with. Mostolder
> hs tend to gravitate toward people with the same interests ratherThere's also a message board for teens at unschooling.com....
> than just other hs.
Dar
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debbie jones
My son knows all about some of the famous people (Edison, Einstein, etc) who had ADD and he knows he is smart. He admires Bill Gates and has bought a biography of his. His problem is in comprehension. Attention Deficit Disorder. That is the reason he gives for not being able to read. He does read on the net, yes. That's in smaller spurts though. He was just diagnosed with ADD the other day, so the label wasn't given to him until then. The problem with reading began, and the not wanting any form of academics, in the last few years. They say that all goes along with having ADD. If anyone on this list is familiar with it, please speak up.
Debbie
Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:
people find it a huge relief to find out that there's a reason for their
difficulties other than the laziness that others might have accused them
of. Maybe he believes that people with ADD aren't smart. You could help
that by searching for one of those lists of famous people, many of them
obviously smart, who are ADD.
Also, you say that he doesn't want to read anymore. Does he do any reading
at all? I ask because my 14 yo son doesn't appear to read at all, but I
finally realized how much he's actually reading in his bike magazines and
on the web. He won't read fiction because he can't read fast enough to
really get what he's reading, but the non-fiction stuff within his
interests is doable for him. Maybe you need to really look at what he does
read, or maybe offer him reading material according to his
interests. Magazines are available for almost any interest.
Tia
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Debbie
Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:
>I wonder if he really understands what it means. I've read that most
>somehow I get the feeling that this 'label' has hurt your son. you say he
>doesn't want to read anymore.. and he used to.
people find it a huge relief to find out that there's a reason for their
difficulties other than the laziness that others might have accused them
of. Maybe he believes that people with ADD aren't smart. You could help
that by searching for one of those lists of famous people, many of them
obviously smart, who are ADD.
Also, you say that he doesn't want to read anymore. Does he do any reading
at all? I ask because my 14 yo son doesn't appear to read at all, but I
finally realized how much he's actually reading in his bike magazines and
on the web. He won't read fiction because he can't read fast enough to
really get what he's reading, but the non-fiction stuff within his
interests is doable for him. Maybe you need to really look at what he does
read, or maybe offer him reading material according to his
interests. Magazines are available for almost any interest.
Tia
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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debbie jones
Tia,
You are right. And he has found friends on the internet with similar interests so that is good. Some are much older but he learns a lot from them, and I appreciate the fact that they are willing to do that for my son. He is quite mature for his age, so it makes it easier for him to talk to other older people who share his interests.
One thing I've noticed since he's been home is he is more relaxed, and he and his brother do get along better.
Debbie
Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:
need to help him find some other computer geeks to hang with. Most older
hs tend to gravitate toward people with the same interests rather than just
other hs.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
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http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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Send your FREE holiday greetings online at Yahoo! Greetings.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You are right. And he has found friends on the internet with similar interests so that is good. Some are much older but he learns a lot from them, and I appreciate the fact that they are willing to do that for my son. He is quite mature for his age, so it makes it easier for him to talk to other older people who share his interests.
One thing I've noticed since he's been home is he is more relaxed, and he and his brother do get along better.
Debbie
Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:
>Maybe instead of, or in addition to, looking for a hs group with teens, you
>We have found a hs group just recently, and my younger son, 12, is
>enjoying it, but there are no real teens my 14yo son's age. I think if he
>found other boys who don't attent ps, it would be good for him. He's quite
>mature for his age so 12yo's may be on a different level than what he
>would choose. I am going to continue to work to find other kids his age
>and take care of his lonliness he says he has. I honestly think this has
>been a big adjustment for him and he doesn't feel right about not
>attenting ps. Hopefully, time will change that.
need to help him find some other computer geeks to hang with. Most older
hs tend to gravitate toward people with the same interests rather than just
other hs.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
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Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
---------------------------------
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Send your FREE holiday greetings online at Yahoo! Greetings.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
In the elementary grades, there's less emphasis on speed and grasping
things quickly than in middle and high school. The pace picks up
quite a bit. So, in your son's case, it's probably safe to say that
he's been able to cover up his inability to comprehend for quite some
time. Now that there's this diagnosis, he's bound to be upset.
Maybe he's angry/frustrated that he struggled for so long and nobody
ever realized it or figured it out. Maybe he's gotten into more
detailed material so that covering up is now impossible and he's
feeling defeated. (I don't know... just making assumptions based on
my friend's son who also had the same problem). In my friend's case,
her son began taking a medication (don't know which one but it was
akin to a mild sedative) and within three weeks, he experienced
positive results. Further, more detailed diagnosis was done and it
was determined that he could do the work when not put under the
normal time constraints. *Maybe* by being at home your son will
learn to relax without the medication (that is probably a bad choice
of wording)... I'm trying to say that your son may not need
medications (then again, he may) but at least try
unschooling/deschooling before drugs. There are side effects and
concequences to the drug route and you may very well be able to avoid
that if given time.
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
things quickly than in middle and high school. The pace picks up
quite a bit. So, in your son's case, it's probably safe to say that
he's been able to cover up his inability to comprehend for quite some
time. Now that there's this diagnosis, he's bound to be upset.
Maybe he's angry/frustrated that he struggled for so long and nobody
ever realized it or figured it out. Maybe he's gotten into more
detailed material so that covering up is now impossible and he's
feeling defeated. (I don't know... just making assumptions based on
my friend's son who also had the same problem). In my friend's case,
her son began taking a medication (don't know which one but it was
akin to a mild sedative) and within three weeks, he experienced
positive results. Further, more detailed diagnosis was done and it
was determined that he could do the work when not put under the
normal time constraints. *Maybe* by being at home your son will
learn to relax without the medication (that is probably a bad choice
of wording)... I'm trying to say that your son may not need
medications (then again, he may) but at least try
unschooling/deschooling before drugs. There are side effects and
concequences to the drug route and you may very well be able to avoid
that if given time.
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
On Fri, 28 Dec 2001 03:50:56 -0800 (PST), debbie jones wrote:
>His problem is in
>comprehension. Attention Deficit Disorder. That is the reason he
>gives for not being able to read. He does read on the net, yes.
>That's in smaller spurts though. He was just diagnosed with ADD
>the other day, so the label wasn't given to him until then. The
>problem with reading began, and the not wanting any form of
>academics, in the last few years. They say that all goes along
>with having ADD. If anyone on this list is familiar with it,
>please speak up.
>Debbie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
> My son knows all about some of the famous people (Edison, Einstein, etc)Well I'm probably no more familiar with it than you. But your description
> who had ADD and he knows he is smart. He admires Bill Gates and has
> bought a biography of his. His problem is in comprehension. Attention
> Deficit Disorder. That is the reason he gives for not being able to read.
> He does read on the net, yes. That's in smaller spurts though. He was
> just diagnosed with ADD the other day, so the label wasn't given to him
> until then. The problem with reading began, and the not wanting any form
> of academics, in the last few years. They say that all goes along with
> having ADD. If anyone on this list is familiar with it, please speak up.
of your son could be a description of mine. <g> And, while he hasn't been
diagnosed, I'm more and more sure that he *is* ADD.
You say your son is keen on programming. Is he very far along that
path? My son has expressed an interest, but I have no idea how to get him
started. (I started learning programming in 1970, never finished the
course, and it's *way* different now.) Do you think your son would have
some ideas to help mine get started?
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island