Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] grandparents
Kolleen
> I am sick of it. But she is my mother and I am her only child so I feelWhats the concensus here on grandparent involvement?
>obligated to make peace. I always do.
>
> NICKI~
My personal beleif is they raised their children and don't have any
rights to how you raise yours UNLESS ASKED SPECIFICALLY.
Dialogue on this anyone?
regards,
kolleen
Kolleen
>And I've rambled a lot, but my original point was that *I* do thinkThanks for the reiteration on that Dar. I beleive that also. And I might
>unschooling "works" for all kids, and since this is an unschooling list,
>I figured someone ought to say that.
>
>Dar
add that there is an adjustment period depending on how much damage was
already done. Sometimes a slower pace is best for emotional issues,
again, depending on the situation. Yet it all should lead towards
unschooling.
Tell Cacie that our hearts are with her during this time when
understanding an 88yo isn't easy.
My grandmother at 93 returned all of our 'stuff' so that we would have it
when she goes. She's 95 now, lives alone by choice and her house is empty
of all the memories.
>My mom said a very nice thing to me about a year ago. We were talkingThis is beautiful and 'dangerously verges' on the core of unschooling
>about unschooling, and I said something about how it was great it was
>that she'd been able to be open and accepting of it ... and she said
>something like, "I really don't know about unschooling, and I'll not sure
>how I'd feel about anyone else doing it, but I know that if you're doing
>it, it will work out well." The message I got was "I have faith in
>*you*."
*smile*.
I'm sorry for your recent loss.
with regards,
kolleen
Kolleen
>I know for a fact that pure unschooling as previously defined hereWhen I refer to taking it at a slow pace for emotional issues, I mean it
>cannot work for all children. This does not mean that I think
>unschooling is bad. It does not mean that I think anyone is wrong
>for unschooling. It simply means that I recognize the fact that not
>all children are the same. Some need more help than others in
>arriving at a point where they can be entirely self-driven and self-
>directed. And that should be the ultimate goal. To help our
>children become self-sufficient.
>
>Bridget
in the context of SEVERE situation. Say a child is conventionally
schooled and then loses their parents in a tragic accident. The aunt
takes over and wants to unschool. If a child is going through the loss of
something so dear, then taking away everything at once could make the
unschooling centered around the emotional trauma of the loss of parents,
and not a thing to be looked upon with fondness.
And only in servere incidences should it be taken on with caution.
Otherwise, I say let it loose and let the unschooling commence!
regards,
kolleen
Sarah Carothers
re: grandparent involvement.
I agree with you, Kolleen. They had a chance to raise us; now it's
our turn. I would welcome their involvement if it were on a positive
note but alas, it's quite the opposite.
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
I agree with you, Kolleen. They had a chance to raise us; now it's
our turn. I would welcome their involvement if it were on a positive
note but alas, it's quite the opposite.
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
On Mon, 24 Dec 01 18:04:39 -0500, Kolleen wrote:
>
>Whats the concensus here on grandparent involvement?
>
>My personal beleif is they raised their children and don't have
>any
>rights to how you raise yours UNLESS ASKED SPECIFICALLY.
>
>Dialogue on this anyone?
>
>regards,
>kolleen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
I've seen it both good and bad. My mom (a certified teacher, now
retired) was not very happy with my unschooling tendencies when we
first started this great adventure. Now, she lives next door. She
is perfectly accepting of the unschooling of my two oldest and I have
come around to her POV about my third child. Pure unschooling was
not going to work for him no matter how much I wanted it to.
So I guess you could say we compromised. But you could also say we
were both right. Unschooling works fine for many kids - but not ALL
kids.
Bridget
retired) was not very happy with my unschooling tendencies when we
first started this great adventure. Now, she lives next door. She
is perfectly accepting of the unschooling of my two oldest and I have
come around to her POV about my third child. Pure unschooling was
not going to work for him no matter how much I wanted it to.
So I guess you could say we compromised. But you could also say we
were both right. Unschooling works fine for many kids - but not ALL
kids.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Kolleen <Kolleen@m...> wrote:
>
> Whats the concensus here on grandparent involvement?
>
> My personal beleif is they raised their children and don't have any
> rights to how you raise yours UNLESS ASKED SPECIFICALLY.
>
> Dialogue on this anyone?
>
>
> regards,
> kolleen
[email protected]
On Wed, 26 Dec 2001 16:50:21 -0000 "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
about unschooling, and I said something about how it was great it was
that she'd been able to be open and accepting of it ... and she said
something like, "I really don't know about unschooling, and I'll not sure
how I'd feel about anyone else doing it, but I know that if you're doing
it, it will work out well." The message I got was "I have faith in
*you*."
My grandma, now, she's 88 and a different story, since we've been here
she's returned to Cacie all the presents Cacie ever gave her - and these
are homemade things that Cacie made when she was preschool-age, a trivet
with her handprint, a Christmas decoration that she painted, stuff like
that. It hurt Cacie a lot. She also basically orders us around, Cacie
probably more than anyone - "Get me my purse" "Sing a song, I want to
hear how you sing", etc. She also came over and sat down at the table
where Cacie and I were putting together her playmobil fairy tale castle
and *gasp* messed up a set-up, just scooted the whole playground scene
back in a pile so she could put her arms there. She had no idea, of
course, but Cacie was still upset... but she's 88, and starting to lose
it mentally - she tells all the same stories every time we see her and
forgets the words to jingle bells - so we all try to avoid
confrontations, since she won't remember them next time we see her
anyway. She's not malicious at all.... I try to keep her occupied and run
interference.
Yesterday we were having wine and she tasted hers and said it was too
dry, and told us that she usually put just a teaspoon full of maple syrup
in her wine at home, to make it sweeter. So I went to get the maple
syrup, and my dad (her son) came out to the kitchen with me and whispered
"If I ask for maple syrup in my wine when I'm 88, please just shoot me",
but she apparently liked it...
The story she tells almost every time we see her is about how when she
started first grade, she didn't speak English very well (she emigrated
from Germany as an infant) and the kids would all tease her by singing
"Irene Bauer, sitting in a tower, eating sauerkraut by the hour!" And she
always laughs at this story... and I keep thinking how incredibly hurtful
it must have been at the time, to be 6 years old and heading off alone to
a place where you didn't really know the language, and where people
laughed at you because you were German-American. She doesn't remember it
as hurtful at all, she lauhs and laughs... which to me just points out
how dissociated she really is from her feelings...
And I've rambled a lot, but my original point was that *I* do think
unschooling "works" for all kids, and since this is an unschooling list,
I figured someone ought to say that.
Dar
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<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
> Unschooling works fine for many kids - but not ALL kids.My mom said a very nice thing to me about a year ago. We were talking
about unschooling, and I said something about how it was great it was
that she'd been able to be open and accepting of it ... and she said
something like, "I really don't know about unschooling, and I'll not sure
how I'd feel about anyone else doing it, but I know that if you're doing
it, it will work out well." The message I got was "I have faith in
*you*."
My grandma, now, she's 88 and a different story, since we've been here
she's returned to Cacie all the presents Cacie ever gave her - and these
are homemade things that Cacie made when she was preschool-age, a trivet
with her handprint, a Christmas decoration that she painted, stuff like
that. It hurt Cacie a lot. She also basically orders us around, Cacie
probably more than anyone - "Get me my purse" "Sing a song, I want to
hear how you sing", etc. She also came over and sat down at the table
where Cacie and I were putting together her playmobil fairy tale castle
and *gasp* messed up a set-up, just scooted the whole playground scene
back in a pile so she could put her arms there. She had no idea, of
course, but Cacie was still upset... but she's 88, and starting to lose
it mentally - she tells all the same stories every time we see her and
forgets the words to jingle bells - so we all try to avoid
confrontations, since she won't remember them next time we see her
anyway. She's not malicious at all.... I try to keep her occupied and run
interference.
Yesterday we were having wine and she tasted hers and said it was too
dry, and told us that she usually put just a teaspoon full of maple syrup
in her wine at home, to make it sweeter. So I went to get the maple
syrup, and my dad (her son) came out to the kitchen with me and whispered
"If I ask for maple syrup in my wine when I'm 88, please just shoot me",
but she apparently liked it...
The story she tells almost every time we see her is about how when she
started first grade, she didn't speak English very well (she emigrated
from Germany as an infant) and the kids would all tease her by singing
"Irene Bauer, sitting in a tower, eating sauerkraut by the hour!" And she
always laughs at this story... and I keep thinking how incredibly hurtful
it must have been at the time, to be 6 years old and heading off alone to
a place where you didn't really know the language, and where people
laughed at you because you were German-American. She doesn't remember it
as hurtful at all, she lauhs and laughs... which to me just points out
how dissociated she really is from her feelings...
And I've rambled a lot, but my original point was that *I* do think
unschooling "works" for all kids, and since this is an unschooling list,
I figured someone ought to say that.
Dar
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rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Kolleen <Kolleen@m...> wrote:
cannot work for all children. This does not mean that I think
unschooling is bad. It does not mean that I think anyone is wrong
for unschooling. It simply means that I recognize the fact that not
all children are the same. Some need more help than others in
arriving at a point where they can be entirely self-driven and self-
directed. And that should be the ultimate goal. To help our
children become self-sufficient.
Bridget
> >And I've rambled a lot, but my original point was that *I* do thinklist,
> >unschooling "works" for all kids, and since this is an unschooling
> >I figured someone ought to say that.might
> >
> >Dar
>
>
> Thanks for the reiteration on that Dar. I beleive that also. And I
> add that there is an adjustment period depending on how much damagewas
> already done. Sometimes a slower pace is best for emotional issues,I know for a fact that pure unschooling as previously defined here
> again, depending on the situation. Yet it all should lead towards
> unschooling.
>
cannot work for all children. This does not mean that I think
unschooling is bad. It does not mean that I think anyone is wrong
for unschooling. It simply means that I recognize the fact that not
all children are the same. Some need more help than others in
arriving at a point where they can be entirely self-driven and self-
directed. And that should be the ultimate goal. To help our
children become self-sufficient.
Bridget
[email protected]
On Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:57:16 -0000 "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
unschooling list...
As I recall, part of your argument on this point is that your son didn't
learn to read on his own by 8 or 9, so you decided that unschooling
reading wasn't working and now he goes to his grandma's house every day,
where she only gives him food after he does some school-ish reading work.
The other thing I remember is that your son watched a lot of tv and got
cranky, so you decided he couldn't unschool regarding tv.
You defined these outcomes as unschooling "not working". Other people
(including me) would define them as different paths and opportunities.
What you label as "fast" is clearly opinion...
Dar, going offline to make some friends for my Sims..
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<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
> I know for a fact that pure unschooling as previously defined hereYou can't really expect a statement like that to go unchallenged on an
> cannot work for all children.
unschooling list...
As I recall, part of your argument on this point is that your son didn't
learn to read on his own by 8 or 9, so you decided that unschooling
reading wasn't working and now he goes to his grandma's house every day,
where she only gives him food after he does some school-ish reading work.
The other thing I remember is that your son watched a lot of tv and got
cranky, so you decided he couldn't unschool regarding tv.
You defined these outcomes as unschooling "not working". Other people
(including me) would define them as different paths and opportunities.
What you label as "fast" is clearly opinion...
Dar, going offline to make some friends for my Sims..
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rumpleteasermom
Would you like to respond to what I actually say instead of what you
think I meant. Yes I said he goes to my mom's and yes I said she
feeds him and that's big motivator for him but no, the food is not
dependent on jumping through any hoops and I never said it was.
My son has some serious problems to overcome and burying my head in
the sand and expecting him to learn to deal with them on his own
would not be in his best interest. TV is one of them. And it i s
not a matter of just getting cranky. He is a whole different and
much more unhappy person when left to his own devices regarding TV
and video games.
I also think that there are other moms out there struggling with the
same things. Telling them that they are just not unschooling right
and that is where all the problems come from is just plain
insensitive.
Bridget
think I meant. Yes I said he goes to my mom's and yes I said she
feeds him and that's big motivator for him but no, the food is not
dependent on jumping through any hoops and I never said it was.
My son has some serious problems to overcome and burying my head in
the sand and expecting him to learn to deal with them on his own
would not be in his best interest. TV is one of them. And it i s
not a matter of just getting cranky. He is a whole different and
much more unhappy person when left to his own devices regarding TV
and video games.
I also think that there are other moms out there struggling with the
same things. Telling them that they are just not unschooling right
and that is where all the problems come from is just plain
insensitive.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 26 Dec 2001 17:57:16 -0000 "rumpleteasermom"
> <rumpleteasermom@j...> writes:
> > I know for a fact that pure unschooling as previously defined
here
> > cannot work for all children.
>
> You can't really expect a statement like that to go unchallenged on
an
> unschooling list...
>
> As I recall, part of your argument on this point is that your son
didn't
> learn to read on his own by 8 or 9, so you decided that unschooling
> reading wasn't working and now he goes to his grandma's house every
day,
> where she only gives him food after he does some school-ish reading
work.
>
> The other thing I remember is that your son watched a lot of tv and
got
> cranky, so you decided he couldn't unschool regarding tv.
>
> You defined these outcomes as unschooling "not working". Other
people
> (including me) would define them as different paths and
opportunities.
> What you label as "fast" is clearly opinion...
>
> Dar, going offline to make some friends for my Sims..
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Tia Leschke
>As a grandmother, I pretty much agree with you. I do offer advice
>
>Whats the concensus here on grandparent involvement?
>
>My personal beleif is they raised their children and don't have any
>rights to how you raise yours UNLESS ASKED SPECIFICALLY.
>
>Dialogue on this anyone?
sometimes, but it's always with the idea of, "Have you tried X?", or, "I
wonder if X would help." Or something like that. Also, my daughter
parents much the way I did, only better. I don't what it will be like when
my boys have kids. If they parent very differently, I'm going to find it
harder to keep my mouth shut, but I know I'll mostly have to.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Tia Leschke
>The most important thing I got from my mother was her belief in me. She
>
>My mom said a very nice thing to me about a year ago. We were talking
>about unschooling, and I said something about how it was great it was
>that she'd been able to be open and accepting of it ... and she said
>something like, "I really don't know about unschooling, and I'll not sure
>how I'd feel about anyone else doing it, but I know that if you're doing
>it, it will work out well." The message I got was "I have faith in
>*you*."
knew, and let me know that she knew, that I was capable of staying out of
trouble, getting out of trouble if I did get into some, and that I would
know when to ask for help. That meant a lot to me and is something I've
tried to pass on to my kids.
>My grandma, now, she's 88 and a different story, since we've been hereWow! I can imagine that it did hurt her. It's a good thing she has you to
>she's returned to Cacie all the presents Cacie ever gave her - and these
>are homemade things that Cacie made when she was preschool-age, a trivet
>with her handprint, a Christmas decoration that she painted, stuff like
>that. It hurt Cacie a lot.
run interference and help her to understand that your grandmother is losing
it. My mother is starting to lose it at 85, but at least so far she hasn't
become hurtful.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
We are pretty fortunate in our family in that we get very little unasked for
advice. . . in fact, I think we get none. I believe its because we would not
tolerate anyone questioning the way we have decided to parent. FIL mentioned
last night he doesn't have a clue about relating to girls my daughter's age
(he does boy scouts and so thinks he knows all about boys ;). I mentioned
that homeschooled girls are much different also. . .and he said yes, he
noticed that. LOL. Probably from the fact that Lelia feels free to speak her
mind to him and say so when he does or says something she feels is wrong. I
don't imagine he is very used to that (he taught public schoole history for
38 years). My parents are a whole nother story. . . believe me, you wouldnt
want to hear it. But suffice to say, that because of our attitude, they dont
meddle.
living in abundance
lovemary
The love that you withhold is the pain that you carry - from lifetime
to lifetime.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
advice. . . in fact, I think we get none. I believe its because we would not
tolerate anyone questioning the way we have decided to parent. FIL mentioned
last night he doesn't have a clue about relating to girls my daughter's age
(he does boy scouts and so thinks he knows all about boys ;). I mentioned
that homeschooled girls are much different also. . .and he said yes, he
noticed that. LOL. Probably from the fact that Lelia feels free to speak her
mind to him and say so when he does or says something she feels is wrong. I
don't imagine he is very used to that (he taught public schoole history for
38 years). My parents are a whole nother story. . . believe me, you wouldnt
want to hear it. But suffice to say, that because of our attitude, they dont
meddle.
living in abundance
lovemary
The love that you withhold is the pain that you carry - from lifetime
to lifetime.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mimi Moorehead
>What a wonderful mother you must have!!
> My mom said a very nice thing to me about a year ago. We were talking
> about unschooling, and I said something about how it was great it was
> that she'd been able to be open and accepting of it ... and she said
> something like, "I really don't know about unschooling, and I'll not
> sure
> how I'd feel about anyone else doing it, but I know that if you're
> doing
> it, it will work out well." The message I got was "I have faith in
> *you*."
>
Mimi
Mama of Leroy & Paul, born 01/10/94
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Wed, 26 Dec 2001 18:28:54 -0000 "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
there struggling with issues of TV, and reading, and all sorts of of
things. That's why this list is here - because people do struggle with
these issues. It is difficult to relinquish control, to give your
children the freedom to develop at their own pace and find their own
limits. Mainstreamia is out there saying, "If you don't force your kids
to do X and Y, they'll never learn and grow up to be Bad People." That's
hard to buck...
I'm not sure there is a such thing as unschooling "right". There's
unschooling and there's not unschooling, and calling one the other
doesn't change anything. I'll fall back on my vegetarianism example - if
you want to only eat meat when you're over at grandma's house every
morning, it's not that you're doing vegetarianism "wrong", you're just
not a vegetarian. Which is fine - hell, I'm not a vegetarian - but if
you're on a vegetarian list and someone posts about problems with, say,
low iron, suggesting that the person eat meat every morning at grandma's
is not going to be a welcome suggestion, nor should it be.
So, sinec this is a list for supporting people in their unschooling
endeavors, if you (or anyone else) decide you want to unschool your son,
and you want to share your struggles and ask for help and support, we
will all be here to help you make it work. If you (or anyone) decide you
don't want to unschool your son, I'm happy to send people subbing info
for other homeschooling lists, or schooling lists, where there are people
to support and help those making that choice.
Dar
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<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
> I also think that there are other moms out there struggling with theI'll even begin by agreeing with you - yes, there are other parents out
> same things. Telling them that they are just not unschooling right
> and that is where all the problems come from is just plain
> insensitive.
there struggling with issues of TV, and reading, and all sorts of of
things. That's why this list is here - because people do struggle with
these issues. It is difficult to relinquish control, to give your
children the freedom to develop at their own pace and find their own
limits. Mainstreamia is out there saying, "If you don't force your kids
to do X and Y, they'll never learn and grow up to be Bad People." That's
hard to buck...
I'm not sure there is a such thing as unschooling "right". There's
unschooling and there's not unschooling, and calling one the other
doesn't change anything. I'll fall back on my vegetarianism example - if
you want to only eat meat when you're over at grandma's house every
morning, it's not that you're doing vegetarianism "wrong", you're just
not a vegetarian. Which is fine - hell, I'm not a vegetarian - but if
you're on a vegetarian list and someone posts about problems with, say,
low iron, suggesting that the person eat meat every morning at grandma's
is not going to be a welcome suggestion, nor should it be.
So, sinec this is a list for supporting people in their unschooling
endeavors, if you (or anyone else) decide you want to unschool your son,
and you want to share your struggles and ask for help and support, we
will all be here to help you make it work. If you (or anyone) decide you
don't want to unschool your son, I'm happy to send people subbing info
for other homeschooling lists, or schooling lists, where there are people
to support and help those making that choice.
Dar
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Sarah Carothers
Well said, Dar. That's a great example!
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
On Wed, 26 Dec 2001 21:50:02 -0700, freeform@... wrote:
>
>I'm not sure there is a such thing as unschooling "right". There's
>unschooling and there's not unschooling, and calling one the other
>doesn't change anything. I'll fall back on my vegetarianism
>example - if
>you want to only eat meat when you're over at grandma's house every
>morning, it's not that you're doing vegetarianism "wrong", you're
>just
>not a vegetarian. Which is fine - hell, I'm not a vegetarian - but
>if
>you're on a vegetarian list and someone posts about problems with,
>say,
>low iron, suggesting that the person eat meat every morning at
>grandma's
>is not going to be a welcome suggestion, nor should it be.
>
>So, sinec this is a list for supporting people in their unschooling
>endeavors, if you (or anyone else) decide you want to unschool
>your son,
>and you want to share your struggles and ask for help and support,
>we
>will all be here to help you make it work.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:
back, I never said I did), I am not welcome here even though I do
unschool both daughters.
Good bye.
Bridget
> So, sinec this is a list for supporting people in their unschoolingson,
> endeavors, if you (or anyone else) decide you want to unschool your
> and you want to share your struggles and ask for help and support,we
> will all be here to help you make it work. If you (or anyone)decide you
> don't want to unschool your son, I'm happy to send people subbinginfo
> for other homeschooling lists, or schooling lists, where there arepeople
> to support and help those making that choice.So what you are saying is that since I don't unschool my son (look
>
> Dar
back, I never said I did), I am not welcome here even though I do
unschool both daughters.
Good bye.
Bridget
Sarah Carothers
I don't think that's what she was saying. I do think, however, that
when a person comes to an *UN*schooling list asking for advice,
that's the kind of support they should receive... not a suggestion
that it might not work for their kid (as it didn't your son). As Dar
said, there are plenty of lists offering support and information for
those types of kids and one would get more useful advice like that
(schedules, texts, programs, charters etc.) if they sought it from
like-minded individuals. This list, however, is called unschooling
and I believe people expect *that* to be the focus. They come here
with doubts about it (as the poster so described) and imo if she were
*really* leaning toward a rigid schedule or school-type atmosphere,
she would have gone to one of the many, many other hsing lists. But
she didn't.... she wanted *unschooling* information.
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
when a person comes to an *UN*schooling list asking for advice,
that's the kind of support they should receive... not a suggestion
that it might not work for their kid (as it didn't your son). As Dar
said, there are plenty of lists offering support and information for
those types of kids and one would get more useful advice like that
(schedules, texts, programs, charters etc.) if they sought it from
like-minded individuals. This list, however, is called unschooling
and I believe people expect *that* to be the focus. They come here
with doubts about it (as the poster so described) and imo if she were
*really* leaning toward a rigid schedule or school-type atmosphere,
she would have gone to one of the many, many other hsing lists. But
she didn't.... she wanted *unschooling* information.
Sarah
~xx~ ~xx~ ~xx~
Sarah Carothers
puddles@...
On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:10:51 -0000, rumpleteasermom wrote:
>
>So what you are saying is that since I don't unschool my son (look
>back, I never said I did), I am not welcome here even though I do
>unschool both daughters.
>
>Good bye.
>
>Bridget
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Thu, 27 Dec 2001 13:10:51 -0000 "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
Dar
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<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
>Are you going somewhere?
> Good bye.
>
> Bridget
Dar
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[email protected]
In a message dated 12/27/2001 11:43:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
freeform@... writes:
living in abundance
lovemary
The love that you withhold is the pain that you carry - from lifetime
to lifetime.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freeform@... writes:
> Are you going somewhere?No one has unsubbed from this list in the last few days, including today.
>
> Dar
>
living in abundance
lovemary
The love that you withhold is the pain that you carry - from lifetime
to lifetime.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
I believe that it was stated that old stuff wouldn't be rehashed. Did I
miss something or is it o.k. to do the same old tired let's compare
vegetarians to unschoolers and go somewhere else if you don't unschool my
way discussion?
As I remember, this whole attitude/topic is what was the basis for the last
hoopla that landed this list in the very un-unschooling status of moderated.
Lynda
miss something or is it o.k. to do the same old tired let's compare
vegetarians to unschoolers and go somewhere else if you don't unschool my
way discussion?
As I remember, this whole attitude/topic is what was the basis for the last
hoopla that landed this list in the very un-unschooling status of moderated.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <freeform@...>
>
> I'll even begin by agreeing with you - yes, there are other parents out
> there struggling with issues of TV, and reading, and all sorts of of
> things. That's why this list is here - because people do struggle with
> these issues. It is difficult to relinquish control, to give your
> children the freedom to develop at their own pace and find their own
> limits. Mainstreamia is out there saying, "If you don't force your kids
> to do X and Y, they'll never learn and grow up to be Bad People." That's
> hard to buck...
>
> I'm not sure there is a such thing as unschooling "right". There's
> unschooling and there's not unschooling, and calling one the other
> doesn't change anything. I'll fall back on my vegetarianism example - if
> you want to only eat meat when you're over at grandma's house every
> morning, it's not that you're doing vegetarianism "wrong", you're just
> not a vegetarian. Which is fine - hell, I'm not a vegetarian - but if
> you're on a vegetarian list and someone posts about problems with, say,
> low iron, suggesting that the person eat meat every morning at grandma's
> is not going to be a welcome suggestion, nor should it be.
>
> So, sinec this is a list for supporting people in their unschooling
> endeavors, if you (or anyone else) decide you want to unschool your son,
> and you want to share your struggles and ask for help and support, we
> will all be here to help you make it work. If you (or anyone) decide you
> don't want to unschool your son, I'm happy to send people subbing info
> for other homeschooling lists, or schooling lists, where there are people
> to support and help those making that choice.
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
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>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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>
>
Sarah Carothers
Lynda asked:
<I believe that it was stated that old stuff wouldn't be rehashed. Did I
miss something or is it o.k. to do the same old tired let's compare
vegetarians to unschoolers and go somewhere else if you don't unschool my
way discussion?>
keep reading the posts, Lynda. It may have been a repeat of sorts but the message is still the same...
if somebody is coming to an unschooling list asking questions, they're looking for unschooling support and not the message of "it won't work".
Please read the rest of the thread
Sarah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<I believe that it was stated that old stuff wouldn't be rehashed. Did I
miss something or is it o.k. to do the same old tired let's compare
vegetarians to unschoolers and go somewhere else if you don't unschool my
way discussion?>
keep reading the posts, Lynda. It may have been a repeat of sorts but the message is still the same...
if somebody is coming to an unschooling list asking questions, they're looking for unschooling support and not the message of "it won't work".
Please read the rest of the thread
Sarah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
I wasn't talking about to unschool or not to unschool. I was talking about
flogging that old dead horse "vegetarian/unschooling take yourself off to
another list" comments that are almost word for word part of a supposed
flame war that went on a couple of months ago.
Lynda
flogging that old dead horse "vegetarian/unschooling take yourself off to
another list" comments that are almost word for word part of a supposed
flame war that went on a couple of months ago.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah Carothers" <puddles@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 28, 2001 8:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: grandparents
> Lynda asked:
> <I believe that it was stated that old stuff wouldn't be rehashed. Did I
> miss something or is it o.k. to do the same old tired let's compare
> vegetarians to unschoolers and go somewhere else if you don't unschool my
> way discussion?>
>
> keep reading the posts, Lynda. It may have been a repeat of sorts but the
message is still the same...
> if somebody is coming to an unschooling list asking questions, they're
looking for unschooling support and not the message of "it won't work".
> Please read the rest of the thread
> Sarah
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Fetteroll
on 12/29/01 1:34 AM, Lynda at lurine@... wrote:
beginning point of the nastiness but the statement wasn't the cause of the
nastiness. It was the personal attacks.
If someone joins an unschooling list and insists what they're doing is
unschooling when it isn't, then, if worded in a nonoffensive way, suggesting
they might find an eclectic list more useful can, I think, be helpful so
they don't waste their time trying to get the list to adapt to their ideas.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I wasn't talking about to unschool or not to unschool. I was talking aboutPerhaps the suggestion that another list might be better for someone was the
> flogging that old dead horse "vegetarian/unschooling take yourself off to
> another list" comments that are almost word for word part of a supposed
> flame war that went on a couple of months ago.
beginning point of the nastiness but the statement wasn't the cause of the
nastiness. It was the personal attacks.
If someone joins an unschooling list and insists what they're doing is
unschooling when it isn't, then, if worded in a nonoffensive way, suggesting
they might find an eclectic list more useful can, I think, be helpful so
they don't waste their time trying to get the list to adapt to their ideas.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
Actually, this started up again because Dar felt the need to claim
that I withhold food from my son if he does not do what I want him to
do. I never said that, just as I NEVER said that what HE does is
unschooling.
As for the issue of what people want to hear when they come here: I
think unschooling is great and is the best way to live and should be
the ultimate goal for any family (of course when I said that my use
of the words self-sufficient was construed to somehow mean something
bad - still trying to figure that one out)
HOWEVER, and this is the important part, I think that by telling
people that it ALWAYS works and that if it doesn't you are just not
really unschooling is destructive. If a mom comes to you facing the
beginnings of the problems I've been through for years, you can
either belittle her and make her feel at fault (which others have
said they have heard and felt here) or you can help her see that
others have been there done that and that there are respectful ways
to help while keeping the goal of total self-control and self-
direction in mind.
Unfortunately, because of the past history here, many of my thoughts
and comments and advice get lost when someone posts something like
the above accusation of food control.
Bridget
that I withhold food from my son if he does not do what I want him to
do. I never said that, just as I NEVER said that what HE does is
unschooling.
As for the issue of what people want to hear when they come here: I
think unschooling is great and is the best way to live and should be
the ultimate goal for any family (of course when I said that my use
of the words self-sufficient was construed to somehow mean something
bad - still trying to figure that one out)
HOWEVER, and this is the important part, I think that by telling
people that it ALWAYS works and that if it doesn't you are just not
really unschooling is destructive. If a mom comes to you facing the
beginnings of the problems I've been through for years, you can
either belittle her and make her feel at fault (which others have
said they have heard and felt here) or you can help her see that
others have been there done that and that there are respectful ways
to help while keeping the goal of total self-control and self-
direction in mind.
Unfortunately, because of the past history here, many of my thoughts
and comments and advice get lost when someone posts something like
the above accusation of food control.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> on 12/29/01 1:34 AM, Lynda at lurine@s... wrote:
>
> > I wasn't talking about to unschool or not to unschool. I was
talking about
> > flogging that old dead horse "vegetarian/unschooling take
yourself off to
> > another list" comments that are almost word for word part of a
supposed
> > flame war that went on a couple of months ago.
>
> Perhaps the suggestion that another list might be better for
someone was the
> beginning point of the nastiness but the statement wasn't the cause
of the
> nastiness. It was the personal attacks.
>
> If someone joins an unschooling list and insists what they're doing
is
> unschooling when it isn't, then, if worded in a nonoffensive way,
suggesting
> they might find an eclectic list more useful can, I think, be
helpful so
> they don't waste their time trying to get the list to adapt to
their ideas.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
Hi Lynda,
I think the analogy of unschoolers/veggies was a good one... it helped me to have a clearer picture. It may have been part of an old flame war but imo it was worth repeating (not the war.. the example).
It's my understanding that this list encourages unschooling, right? So if I'm a newbie and I come here, I would expect answers and support that lean in that direction. I would expect to hear that 'this' worked or 'that' worked or an explanation of de-schooling... all that sort of stuff. I'd *even* expect to see people writing in and saying,' well Jane, that may have worked for you but it didn't for us. We had to try blah blah blah" *INSTEAD* (and you'd see another positive suggestion).
In Bridget's case, when she brings up her son, it's a completely different circumstance. He's got OCD & other disorders that I'm not familiar with (I stopped reading the thread after awhile). It's because of these disorders that unschooling isn't working for him... *NOT* because of a need to de-school or anything unschoolish. It's a *medical* reason, which, btw, has other lists that address those particular issues. Turning to an unschooling list for advice about something due to medical issues *or* using an unschooling list to discourage unschooling( which isn't working due to medical reasons) ..... well, it's simply not the place for that discussion! The medical issues have to be dealt with first.
Let's take another example. Let's say I have a child who can't read because she says the pages are blurry. One could assume she needs her eyes checked and perhaps needs glasses. It would be my responsibility to look into that with a professional medical person. But if I *didn't* yet I responded to every poster who wrote in saying they were having trouble with their kid reading by suggesting that unschooling might not work because it's not working for my dd, then I can see why everybody on the list would be defensive and counter my posts with strong rebuttals. It's not working for *me* because *I'm* not addressing the underlying issue first!
If there's another list out there that would fill my needs better than this one, I'd want somebody to point me in that direction. Now, barring old flame wars, isn't that what just happened in the previous posts that occurred over the last few days?
Sarah
I think the analogy of unschoolers/veggies was a good one... it helped me to have a clearer picture. It may have been part of an old flame war but imo it was worth repeating (not the war.. the example).
It's my understanding that this list encourages unschooling, right? So if I'm a newbie and I come here, I would expect answers and support that lean in that direction. I would expect to hear that 'this' worked or 'that' worked or an explanation of de-schooling... all that sort of stuff. I'd *even* expect to see people writing in and saying,' well Jane, that may have worked for you but it didn't for us. We had to try blah blah blah" *INSTEAD* (and you'd see another positive suggestion).
In Bridget's case, when she brings up her son, it's a completely different circumstance. He's got OCD & other disorders that I'm not familiar with (I stopped reading the thread after awhile). It's because of these disorders that unschooling isn't working for him... *NOT* because of a need to de-school or anything unschoolish. It's a *medical* reason, which, btw, has other lists that address those particular issues. Turning to an unschooling list for advice about something due to medical issues *or* using an unschooling list to discourage unschooling( which isn't working due to medical reasons) ..... well, it's simply not the place for that discussion! The medical issues have to be dealt with first.
Let's take another example. Let's say I have a child who can't read because she says the pages are blurry. One could assume she needs her eyes checked and perhaps needs glasses. It would be my responsibility to look into that with a professional medical person. But if I *didn't* yet I responded to every poster who wrote in saying they were having trouble with their kid reading by suggesting that unschooling might not work because it's not working for my dd, then I can see why everybody on the list would be defensive and counter my posts with strong rebuttals. It's not working for *me* because *I'm* not addressing the underlying issue first!
If there's another list out there that would fill my needs better than this one, I'd want somebody to point me in that direction. Now, barring old flame wars, isn't that what just happened in the previous posts that occurred over the last few days?
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2001 1:34 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: grandparents
I wasn't talking about to unschool or not to unschool. I was talking about
flogging that old dead horse "vegetarian/unschooling take yourself off to
another list" comments that are almost word for word part of a supposed
flame war that went on a couple of months ago.
Lynda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
It seems to me that anyone who reads what I've said (especially in
the past week) as anti-unschooling or even discouraging unschooling
at all . . . well, I have to wonder why that person is so defensive
about the issue and if she is so unsecure in her choice that any
discussion of problems that may need to be addressed is viewed as a
threat.
It would seem that either my words are not being taken at face value
and are being re-interpreted based on what certain people think I do
at home or what certain people think I mean based on previous
misunderstanding, or some insecurity is creeping in somewhere.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Sarah Carothers" <puddles@t...>
wrote:
familiar with (I stopped reading the thread after awhile). It's
because of these disorders that unschooling isn't working for him...
*NOT* because of a need to de-school or anything unschoolish. It's a
*medical* reason, which, btw, has other lists that address those
particular issues. Turning to an unschooling list for advice about
something due to medical issues *or* using an unschooling list to
discourage unschooling( which isn't working due to medical
reasons) ..... well, it's simply not the place for that discussion!
the past week) as anti-unschooling or even discouraging unschooling
at all . . . well, I have to wonder why that person is so defensive
about the issue and if she is so unsecure in her choice that any
discussion of problems that may need to be addressed is viewed as a
threat.
It would seem that either my words are not being taken at face value
and are being re-interpreted based on what certain people think I do
at home or what certain people think I mean based on previous
misunderstanding, or some insecurity is creeping in somewhere.
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Sarah Carothers" <puddles@t...>
wrote:
> In Bridget's case, when she brings up her son, it's a completelydifferent circumstance. He's got OCD & other disorders that I'm not
familiar with (I stopped reading the thread after awhile). It's
because of these disorders that unschooling isn't working for him...
*NOT* because of a need to de-school or anything unschoolish. It's a
*medical* reason, which, btw, has other lists that address those
particular issues. Turning to an unschooling list for advice about
something due to medical issues *or* using an unschooling list to
discourage unschooling( which isn't working due to medical
reasons) ..... well, it's simply not the place for that discussion!
Fetteroll
on 12/29/01 9:15 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:
has just found unschooling. Unschooling "not working" (though I'm not
conceding that point) is going to look a lot like deschooling. In fact to a
schooled mind unschooling *working* is going to look like "not working".
Wanting to watch TV all day is a perfectly normal thing for a child who has
been schooled for years. It may even go on for quite a while. To suggest
going to hamper them in letting go and getting unschooling. I *do*
understand that you feel your son is different, but to most people used to
schoolish ways the above description would apply to a lot of deschooling
kids.
A newly unschooling parent is going to see problems everywhere. Later, when
someone truly gets unschooling, then any rough spots can be dealt with.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> HOWEVER, and this is the important part, I think that by tellingAnd I think it's way too soon to offer that type of advice to someone who
> people that it ALWAYS works and that if it doesn't you are just not
> really unschooling is destructive. If a mom comes to you facing the
> beginnings of the problems I've been through for years, you can
> either belittle her and make her feel at fault (which others have
> said they have heard and felt here) or you can help her see that
> others have been there done that and that there are respectful ways
> to help while keeping the goal of total self-control and self-
> direction in mind.
has just found unschooling. Unschooling "not working" (though I'm not
conceding that point) is going to look a lot like deschooling. In fact to a
schooled mind unschooling *working* is going to look like "not working".
Wanting to watch TV all day is a perfectly normal thing for a child who has
been schooled for years. It may even go on for quite a while. To suggest
> If you find he is stuck in a loop of TV watching and videoto someone who is likely to see an hour or two of TV as "stuck in a loop" is
> game playing, see what happens if you limit it. My son has lots of
> problems but his flat out obsession with electronic stimuli is the
> biggest one. Video games, Nintendo 64 particularly, seem to fry his
> brain. TV spirals into constant watching (even stuff he admits he
> hates to watch) unless we help him keep it in control.
going to hamper them in letting go and getting unschooling. I *do*
understand that you feel your son is different, but to most people used to
schoolish ways the above description would apply to a lot of deschooling
kids.
A newly unschooling parent is going to see problems everywhere. Later, when
someone truly gets unschooling, then any rough spots can be dealt with.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
Okay, I will concede that. When I speak of a loop of TV and video
games, I am not talking about a minor apparent fixation. I am
talking about being glued to it to the exclusion of all else,
including eating, bathroom breaks and other things that the child
wants to do.
If you would care to re-read the rest of the post you snipped, I did
say to let go a bit too.
And on a more specific issue: Does anyone know of any research into
neurological effects of various video games? Got links?
Bridget
games, I am not talking about a minor apparent fixation. I am
talking about being glued to it to the exclusion of all else,
including eating, bathroom breaks and other things that the child
wants to do.
If you would care to re-read the rest of the post you snipped, I did
say to let go a bit too.
And on a more specific issue: Does anyone know of any research into
neurological effects of various video games? Got links?
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
>
> A newly unschooling parent is going to see problems everywhere.
Later, when
> someone truly gets unschooling, then any rough spots can be dealt
with.
>
> Joyce
Tia Leschke
>Okay, I will concede that. When I speak of a loop of TV and videoIf I'm remembering correctly, the mother in question did *not* post that
>games, I am not talking about a minor apparent fixation. I am
>talking about being glued to it to the exclusion of all else,
>including eating, bathroom breaks and other things that the child
>wants to do.
her son was glued to it to the exclusion of all else, including eating,
bathroom breaks and other things that the child
wants to do. Yet limiting TV was one of your first suggestions. I still
say that if you want to give advice that's contradictory to the unschooling
philosophy, you're going to get called on it, especially when you suggest
to someone after their very first worried post that unschooling might not
work for their son. (And before you say that wasn't exactly what you said,
saying that it doesn't work for every kid, in the context of that
conversation, is a suggestion that it might not work for her son.)
>If you would care to re-read the rest of the post you snipped, I didTo me, that sums up your misunderstanding of unschooling. It isn't about
>say to let go a bit too.
letting go a little bit. It's about turning the decisions over to the
child and trusting that the child will make the right ones for him/her.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
[email protected]
On Sat, 29 Dec 2001 14:15:10 -0000 "rumpleteasermom"
<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
This is a perfect example of what messed up the list, just classic.
Bridget just wants to argue. She doesn't want to address any of the
issues, she doesn't want to talk about unschooling. She wants to "win" an
argument, and then she wants to convince all of us that she's truly doing
the best thing for her son. It is really important to her that we all
believe this, because she doesn't believe it herself.
The whole thing makes me feel really sad. I think both Bridget and her
son would be happier if she could just let go of her obsession with
getting this list to tell her she's doing the right thing, but I don't
see it happening. Bridget seems to be hurting a lot, and I wish she could
find a place to get the suppport she needs.
Dar
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<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
> Actually, this started up again because Dar felt the need to claimNo, I didn't. But feel free to make up any stories you want.
> that I withhold food from my son if he does not do what I want him to
> do.
This is a perfect example of what messed up the list, just classic.
Bridget just wants to argue. She doesn't want to address any of the
issues, she doesn't want to talk about unschooling. She wants to "win" an
argument, and then she wants to convince all of us that she's truly doing
the best thing for her son. It is really important to her that we all
believe this, because she doesn't believe it herself.
The whole thing makes me feel really sad. I think both Bridget and her
son would be happier if she could just let go of her obsession with
getting this list to tell her she's doing the right thing, but I don't
see it happening. Bridget seems to be hurting a lot, and I wish she could
find a place to get the suppport she needs.
Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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