Kolleen

>Susan wrote:
>I refuse to give anybody this power over him - or let them give us (his
>parents) this power. When people ask whether he's a "good boy" (in Christmas
>season or out), I say, "Yes, he's good. All children are good. There are no
>bad children." This usually throws 'em for a loop.


Thank you Susan! I hate when people say 'good' or 'bad' to children.

While recently at a birthday party, my son was called 'bad boy' for not
giving his last three candies to the birthday girl. The woman who called
him that was ignorant of the fact that he had just sat down and shared
the entire package with her and wanted to save three for the long ride
home.

I was in earshot but not in the room, so she coerced him into giving them
up. At that point I was trying to make my way in, through the 3 yos, to
stop her.

I couldn't get there and yelled rather loudly for her to stop
intimidating my son. She got mad and wouldn't talk to me after that.

Of course, everyone thought I was the 'bad guy' for not being more
respectful to the birthday girls grandmother. ugh!

When people say is your son good? Or say their kid is bad or whatnot. I
ALWAYS say 'There are no bad children. Only bad parents. Children just
are.' That usually gets them mad or gets them thinking.

regards,
kolleen

Kolleen

>Kolleen,
>
>I was the one who wrote this. (Don't want to put words in anybody's mouth.)
>
>I have thought the "there are only bad parents" line, too, but have so far
>held it back (though I have directly confronted people who hit their kids in
>public).
>
>Elsa Haas


Yikes!! I try to be so careful with that since I've had it done to me and
it can be frustrating when following a thread. My sincere apologies to
both of you... thanks for pointing that out!

I've never run into anyone hitting their kids in public. I don't know
what I would do, I really don't.

What have people done on this list when that situation arises? I'd love
to be prepared just in case...

regards,
kolleen

Kolleen

>Donna writes:
>That would have gotten to me as well! I dislike when other people try to
>discipline, coerce or otherwise, in short, tell my child what to do. I'd
>have said something too when the grandmother called him 'bad boy.' That
>wasn't her place, even if there had truly been something going on.


Donna, this sentence sparks an issue that I'd like to bring up. (Thanks
for the thump on the head!)

What do other unschoolers do that are repeatedly told that 'well, they're
from the old school' as if I should excuse them for their behaviour and
they aren't obliged to respect MY opinions?

I get this from people in my generation (in-laws etc) that think I should
let the grandparents coerce, abuse or infringe upon my child's rights
because thats how they were raised.

Frankly I dont' buy into it. My mom's side of the family respected
children, EVEN when they lived in Italy in the 'old school' days.

My son's father's family didn't. Still don't. And I don't think I should
have to have patience with them.

You should hear how the grandfather STILL talks to the male members of
the family and they are older! It is so disgusting that I'm not at all
surprised how insecure they are.

Funny thing, the manthing agrees with me when I point out specific
instances of abuse, yet he doesn't try and stop it. He says 'what can you
do, thats they're way, I'm not going to start fighting with them now.'

Doesn't sticking up for your children count for anything OUTSIDE of
respect for the other generation???

For example:

My son was 3 mos when we were there for a visit. AT the dinner table the
kids father was holding him and he was grabbing at the silverware (err..
tableware, it wasn't silver). The grandfather picked up his butterknife
and said 'you want to play with the eh? do that again and i'll use this
knife on you'.

I was appalled to the point that I was speechless! (Trust me, today he
would of found himself on the other end of the butcher's knife for saying
that - yeah, not the better choice but the choice that this person
understands).

My son's father never came to his defense. When I refused to go over
there for years after, I was being called unreasonable for not letting
the incident go.

I feel me and my son were owned an apolgy. We never got one.

I still shudder when I think of it and find it hard to forgive myself for
not speaking up at the time.

But why, oh why, are we expected to forgive people for their ways, when
people can't 'forgive' us for ours?

regards,
kolleend

Kolleen

>Spanking is a legal thing -- doesn't make it right, I know, but who are we
>to impose our parenting choices on someone else? We don't want 'big
>brother' watching us, nor do we want people telling us what to do, so I
>would hesitate to do the very same in reverse.


Point well taken Donna. Thanks for your input.

k

Elsa Haas

Kolleen,

I was the one who wrote this. (Don't want to put words in anybody's mouth.)

I have thought the "there are only bad parents" line, too, but have so far
held it back (though I have directly confronted people who hit their kids in
public).

Elsa Haas
-----Original Message-----
From: Kolleen [mailto:Kolleen@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 1:29 AM
To: Unschooling.com
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] good and bad children


>Susan wrote:
>I refuse to give anybody this power over him - or let them give us (his
>parents) this power. When people ask whether he's a "good boy" (in
Christmas
>season or out), I say, "Yes, he's good. All children are good. There are
no
>bad children." This usually throws 'em for a loop.


Thank you Susan! I hate when people say 'good' or 'bad' to children.

While recently at a birthday party, my son was called 'bad boy' for not
giving his last three candies to the birthday girl. The woman who called
him that was ignorant of the fact that he had just sat down and shared
the entire package with her and wanted to save three for the long ride
home.

I was in earshot but not in the room, so she coerced him into giving them
up. At that point I was trying to make my way in, through the 3 yos, to
stop her.

I couldn't get there and yelled rather loudly for her to stop
intimidating my son. She got mad and wouldn't talk to me after that.

Of course, everyone thought I was the 'bad guy' for not being more
respectful to the birthday girls grandmother. ugh!

When people say is your son good? Or say their kid is bad or whatnot. I
ALWAYS say 'There are no bad children. Only bad parents. Children just
are.' That usually gets them mad or gets them thinking.

regards,
kolleen

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna B

That would have gotten to me as well! I dislike when other people try to discipline, coerce or otherwise, in short, tell my child what to do. I'd have said something too when the grandmother called him 'bad boy.' That wasn't her place, even if there had truly been something going on.

Reminds me of a few years back, I was at a learning store/class with my then 3 yod. She was big for her age and looked older (though now she's just a bit taller than most 6 yo) and she was playing with another little girl about 3. The girl took a toy from dd, and dd took it back -- the mother didn't see the girl take it from dd first, and said "You need to share. You're old enough to know better." I like to think I was polite (looking back, I hope so, as I think that gets more attention...but I was mad so I'm not sure I was as successful as I'd have liked) when I gave her a piece of my mind ;)


----- Original Message -----
From: Kolleen
To: Unschooling.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] good and bad children


>Susan wrote:
>I refuse to give anybody this power over him - or let them give us (his
>parents) this power. When people ask whether he's a "good boy" (in Christmas
>season or out), I say, "Yes, he's good. All children are good. There are no
>bad children." This usually throws 'em for a loop.


Thank you Susan! I hate when people say 'good' or 'bad' to children.

While recently at a birthday party, my son was called 'bad boy' for not
giving his last three candies to the birthday girl. The woman who called
him that was ignorant of the fact that he had just sat down and shared
the entire package with her and wanted to save three for the long ride
home.

I was in earshot but not in the room, so she coerced him into giving them
up. At that point I was trying to make my way in, through the 3 yos, to
stop her.

I couldn't get there and yelled rather loudly for her to stop
intimidating my son. She got mad and wouldn't talk to me after that.

Of course, everyone thought I was the 'bad guy' for not being more
respectful to the birthday girls grandmother. ugh!

When people say is your son good? Or say their kid is bad or whatnot. I
ALWAYS say 'There are no bad children. Only bad parents. Children just
are.' That usually gets them mad or gets them thinking.

regards,
kolleen

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna B

I'd take issue with someone approaching me in public.

The reason I speak so vehemently about this is because many years ago, my oldest picked up something from the ground and was shoving it in her mouth. I slapped her hand away, a quick reaction to get the dirty food item (contaminated? poison? who knew?) away from her mouth -- and a woman started loudly commenting to me about horrible parents who 'beat' their children.

Spanking is a legal thing -- doesn't make it right, I know, but who are we to impose our parenting choices on someone else? We don't want 'big brother' watching us, nor do we want people telling us what to do, so I would hesitate to do the very same in reverse.


----- Original Message -----
From: Kolleen
To: Unschooling.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 12:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] good and bad children


>Kolleen,
>
>I was the one who wrote this. (Don't want to put words in anybody's mouth.)
>
>I have thought the "there are only bad parents" line, too, but have so far
>held it back (though I have directly confronted people who hit their kids in
>public).
>
>Elsa Haas


Yikes!! I try to be so careful with that since I've had it done to me and
it can be frustrating when following a thread. My sincere apologies to
both of you... thanks for pointing that out!

I've never run into anyone hitting their kids in public. I don't know
what I would do, I really don't.

What have people done on this list when that situation arises? I'd love
to be prepared just in case...

regards,
kolleen

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

I have and the kidlets head for the hills <g> They know sh*ts gonna hit the
fan! I don't make a fuss over "a" swat on the hinney but if they are
actually hitting or screeching or degrading or any of the mirade of other
abusive behaviors, the parent is fair game!

Actually, in one case, I asked the mom if she'd just like a break and I
would watch her kids for a minute. She was young and had 5 little ones in
tow and you could tell that the older three were pushing buttons. So I
grabbed the hand of the oldest one and the kidlets each took one and off to
toy department we went while mom sat down in the food court and had some
tea.

Lynda

Lynda, who has gone as far as calling the police!
----- Original Message -----
From: Kolleen <Kolleen@...>
To: Unschooling.com <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 12:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] good and bad children


>
> I've never run into anyone hitting their kids in public. I don't know
> what I would do, I really don't.
>
> What have people done on this list when that situation arises? I'd love
> to be prepared just in case...
>
> regards,
> kolleen
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Cindy

Donna B wrote:
>
> That would have gotten to me as well! I dislike when other people try to discipline, coerce or otherwise, in short, tell my child what to do. I'd have said something too when the grandmother called him 'bad boy.' That wasn't her place, even if there had truly been something going on.
>
What would you all recommend doing to a mother who refers to your child
as bossy? And in a bad sense? Megan's best friend's mother tells everyone
that both Megan and Miranda are bossy but that Miranda is the bossiest one.
I see Megan as strong-willed and as a person who knows what she wants and
isn't afraid to ask for it. Coming from my family of origin I see that
as a positive character trait. She did this at the park last week and
it still bugs me and I still haven't figured out a good response.

--

Cindy Ferguson
crma@...

Tia Leschke

>
> >
>What would you all recommend doing to a mother who refers to your child
>as bossy? And in a bad sense? Megan's best friend's mother tells everyone
>that both Megan and Miranda are bossy but that Miranda is the bossiest one.
>I see Megan as strong-willed and as a person who knows what she wants and
>isn't afraid to ask for it. Coming from my family of origin I see that
>as a positive character trait. She did this at the park last week and
>it still bugs me and I still haven't figured out a good response.

You could say, "We don't call names in our family, and we don't allow
(appreciate) other people calling our children names." You never know. I
might wake her up. Or you could find a way to refer to the girls as
stong-willed or persistent in her presence. She might get it.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/20/01 11:10:42 AM Pacific Standard Time,
crma@... writes:

<< >
What would you all recommend doing to a mother who refers to your child
as bossy? And in a bad sense? Megan's best friend's mother tells everyone
that both Megan and Miranda are bossy but that Miranda is the bossiest one.
I see Megan as strong-willed and as a person who knows what she wants and
isn't afraid to ask for it. Coming from my family of origin I see that
as a positive character trait. She did this at the park last week and
it still bugs me and I still haven't figured out a good response. >>

I would say that her leadership traits will take her far in life. No need to
use
a word with negative conotations. If she keeps up I would flat out ask her
not to use that word anymore, you prefer self-starter, motivated, leader etc.
Kathy

[email protected]

On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:07:16 -0800 Cindy <crma@...> writes:
> What would you all recommend doing to a mother who refers to your
> child as bossy? And in a bad sense? Megan's best friend's mother
tells
> everyone that both Megan and Miranda are bossy but that Miranda is the
> bossiest one.

Do you thnk maybe that she's uncomfortable with that trait in her own
daughter, and is trying to include Megan in that label to make herself
feel better about it?

I'm a little sensitive sometimes about Cacie's, um, "leadership
qualities". The bossy label was thrown at me a lot as a kid, and I do
sometimes cringe inside when I see her sort of running the show. OTOH,
I've been able to get beyond that first response and see that she really
is thoughtful towards other kids most of the time, and she certainly
doesn't have problems making and keeping friends... so I've been able to
quell a lot of my discomfort and realize that it has a lot more to do
with me than her.

I would try to reframe the statement in a more positive light, maybe
talking about their having leadership qualities, and good ideas, and
confidence... but also maybe point out (if it's true) that both girls
seem to get along well with other kids, and see if that might defuse her
a bit...

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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Tia Leschke

Requests for interesting books for kids to read or have read to them often
come up on list. My daughter sent me the list of books that she and her
partner have read to Skye in the last year. Thought some of you might be
interested. Some of these would be considered too old for her, but she's
enjoyed and understood them all.
Tia

" Ballet Shoes For Anna", by Noel Streetfield
"Grandmother Oma", by Ilse Kleberger
"Pippi Longstocking", by Astrid Lindgren
"The Boxcar Children", By Gertrude Chandler Warner
"The Secret Garden", Frances Hodgson Burnett
"The Adventures of Daniel Boon",
"The Boxcar Children, Mystery At Snowflake Inn" by Gertrude
Chandler Warner
"The Story of Ben Franklin", by Eve Merriam
"Helen Keller", By Stewart and Polly Anne Graff
"Stuart Little", by E.B. White
"The Marvellous Land of Oz", by L Frank Baum
"Ozma of Oz", by L Frank Baum
"The Patchwork Girl Of Oz", by L.Frank Baum
"Anne of Green Gables", L.M. Montgomery
"Glinda of Oz", by L Frank Baum
"My Side of The Mountain" by Jean Craighead George
"The Wizard Of Oz" by L Frank Baum
"Charlotte's Web" by E.B. White
"The Magician's Nephew" by C.S. Lewis
"Raggedy Ann Stories", by Johnny Gruelle
"The Bread and Butter Journey", by Anne Colver
"Escape to Witch Mountain", by Alexander Key
"Indian in the Cupboard", by Lynne Reid Banks
"James and The Giant Peach", by Roald Dahl
"The Magic of Oz", By L. Frank Baum
"The Root Cellar", by Janet Lunn
"Mary Poppins", by P.L. Travers
"Little House on the Prairie", By Laura Ingalls Wilder
"Mio My Son", by Astrid Lindgren
"Caddie Woodlawn", by Carol Ryrie Brink
"Charlie and the Chocolate Factory", by Roald Dahl
"The Castle in the Attic", by Elizabeth Winthrop
"My Father's Dragon," by Ruth Stiles Gannett
"The Midwife's Apprentice," by Karen Cushman
"Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone," By J.K. Rowling
"Sara Crewe," By Frances Hodgson Burnett
"Miracle on 34th Street," by Valentine Davie

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Honored Babies

From: "Donna B" <Donnabzy@...>

The reason I speak so vehemently about this is because many years ago, my
oldest picked up something from the ground and was shoving it in her mouth.
I slapped her hand away, a quick reaction to get the dirty food item
(contaminated? poison? who knew?) away from her mouth -- and a woman
started loudly commenting to me about horrible parents who 'beat' their
children.

Spanking is a legal thing -- doesn't make it right, I know, but who are we
to impose our parenting choices on someone else? We don't want 'big
brother' watching us, nor do we want people telling us what to do, so I
would hesitate to do the very same in reverse.

-----

First, if I'd have been in your shoes, I would have said, "I agree. That's
why I don't hit my children. I moved quickly to stop my daughter from
eating something that was on the floor. Perhaps I could've made a different
choice. Thank you for caring so much about children." I'm really paranoid
about e-coli (what my son Kadin died from), so I would have also added, "My
son died from e-coli, so I am really concerned about things on floors in
public places." (That shuts a lot of people up!)

I do have to ask though - because hitting children is legal, we shouldn't
speak up about someone hitting their child? I have to say I have never
spoken directly to anyone who is hitting their child in public. Every time
it happens though (often, unfortunately), I turn to Alexandria and say, "I
am so sorry you had to see that child get hit. Children are *not* for
*hitting* - they are for nurturing, loving, cherishing, protecting, and
learning patience from." Now, I am not talking about getting *hit* (aka
spanked - whatever), not getting a hand away from the mouth quickly.

I speak up about all sorts of things that are *legal* - SIN feeding,
cutting penises, c/sections (non-medical medical births for that matter)...

I wonder *when* hitting children will become illegal. Geez - it's illegal
for one legal adult to hit another legal adult. I have never been able to
figure out why it's legal to hit a child. And I do *not* advocate for CPS
in any manner what-so-ever; I hate that gov't. entity that steals children.

~Paula

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/22/2001 4:40:00 AM Eastern Standard Time,
paula@... writes:


>
> I wonder *when* hitting children will become illegal. Geez - it's illegal
>

This is so true Paula. . . many things are legal to do. . doesnt mean they
are right. Some things that are illegal ought to be legal in my opinion.
Hitting another person is an assault on them, whether the law recognizes it
or not.

living in abundance
lovemary

I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna B

Actually, my response to her wasn't any justification at all -- she wasn't owed one, imho. I don't feel I have to explain my parenting actions to anyone. But, she did get A response. <G>

And personally, though I may make the choice not to spank my child, it's MY choice as a parent, and it's not my right to enforce my choices on others. (Obviously, or at least I hope obviously, I'm not talking abusive smacking around type behavior -- which is illegal and something that I'd treat differently.) I'm just really, really against it when a person who doesn't want 'big brother' or anyone else telling them what to do turns around and does that very same thing to someone else. I really believe that just because I choose or believe in something, it doesn't mean someone else has to. That's why homeschooling and parenting are such wonderful choices -- there's no one right or wrong way. If someone were to approach me in that manner, I'd politely tell them to mind their own business.

So sorry to hear about Kadin :( Do you know what he got e coli from?)

Donna

----- Original Message -----
From: Honored Babies
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 1:37 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: good and bad children


From: "Donna B" <Donnabzy@...>

The reason I speak so vehemently about this is because many years ago, my
oldest picked up something from the ground and was shoving it in her mouth.
I slapped her hand away, a quick reaction to get the dirty food item
(contaminated? poison? who knew?) away from her mouth -- and a woman
started loudly commenting to me about horrible parents who 'beat' their
children.

Spanking is a legal thing -- doesn't make it right, I know, but who are we
to impose our parenting choices on someone else? We don't want 'big
brother' watching us, nor do we want people telling us what to do, so I
would hesitate to do the very same in reverse.

-----

First, if I'd have been in your shoes, I would have said, "I agree. That's
why I don't hit my children. I moved quickly to stop my daughter from
eating something that was on the floor. Perhaps I could've made a different
choice. Thank you for caring so much about children." I'm really paranoid
about e-coli (what my son Kadin died from), so I would have also added, "My
son died from e-coli, so I am really concerned about things on floors in
public places." (That shuts a lot of people up!)

I do have to ask though - because hitting children is legal, we shouldn't
speak up about someone hitting their child? I have to say I have never
spoken directly to anyone who is hitting their child in public. Every time
it happens though (often, unfortunately), I turn to Alexandria and say, "I
am so sorry you had to see that child get hit. Children are *not* for
*hitting* - they are for nurturing, loving, cherishing, protecting, and
learning patience from." Now, I am not talking about getting *hit* (aka
spanked - whatever), not getting a hand away from the mouth quickly.

I speak up about all sorts of things that are *legal* - SIN feeding,
cutting penises, c/sections (non-medical medical births for that matter)...

I wonder *when* hitting children will become illegal. Geez - it's illegal
for one legal adult to hit another legal adult. I have never been able to
figure out why it's legal to hit a child. And I do *not* advocate for CPS
in any manner what-so-ever; I hate that gov't. entity that steals children.

~Paula


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http://www.home-ed-magazine.com



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna B

Kolleen, that knife incident would have had me boiling! I can't imagine the amount of patience you must have had to get through the rest of that day, and I don't blame you for not going anymore either.

Seems a lot of old school people don't seem to want to hear any opinions other than their own. Then again, I know a lot of young people like that too, so I'm not sure it's just the age as much as it is a product of their environment and upbringing. Probably the same thing with the way they talk to people, and their lack of respect. Seems some like to bully people into respect, rather than earning it.

Dh's family is odd -- yet Dh has gone head-to-head with them several times. At first I thought he was doing it because he knows I wouldn't have hung out with them at any point in the future if he didn't, but then I realized he was starting to see the difference of when he DID speak up for his kids, or us, or whatever the issue was. It's hard speaking up against family, but there are times it has to be done.

I don't know that I have anything of value to help, but I do wish you luck in that you don't have to deal with it.

Donna
----- Original Message -----
From: Kolleen
To: Unschooling.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 9:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] good and bad children


>Donna writes:
>That would have gotten to me as well! I dislike when other people try to
>discipline, coerce or otherwise, in short, tell my child what to do. I'd
>have said something too when the grandmother called him 'bad boy.' That
>wasn't her place, even if there had truly been something going on.


Donna, this sentence sparks an issue that I'd like to bring up. (Thanks
for the thump on the head!)

What do other unschoolers do that are repeatedly told that 'well, they're
from the old school' as if I should excuse them for their behaviour and
they aren't obliged to respect MY opinions?

I get this from people in my generation (in-laws etc) that think I should
let the grandparents coerce, abuse or infringe upon my child's rights
because thats how they were raised.

Frankly I dont' buy into it. My mom's side of the family respected
children, EVEN when they lived in Italy in the 'old school' days.

My son's father's family didn't. Still don't. And I don't think I should
have to have patience with them.

You should hear how the grandfather STILL talks to the male members of
the family and they are older! It is so disgusting that I'm not at all
surprised how insecure they are.

Funny thing, the manthing agrees with me when I point out specific
instances of abuse, yet he doesn't try and stop it. He says 'what can you
do, thats they're way, I'm not going to start fighting with them now.'

Doesn't sticking up for your children count for anything OUTSIDE of
respect for the other generation???

For example:

My son was 3 mos when we were there for a visit. AT the dinner table the
kids father was holding him and he was grabbing at the silverware (err..
tableware, it wasn't silver). The grandfather picked up his butterknife
and said 'you want to play with the eh? do that again and i'll use this
knife on you'.

I was appalled to the point that I was speechless! (Trust me, today he
would of found himself on the other end of the butcher's knife for saying
that - yeah, not the better choice but the choice that this person
understands).

My son's father never came to his defense. When I refused to go over
there for years after, I was being called unreasonable for not letting
the incident go.

I feel me and my son were owned an apolgy. We never got one.

I still shudder when I think of it and find it hard to forgive myself for
not speaking up at the time.

But why, oh why, are we expected to forgive people for their ways, when
people can't 'forgive' us for ours?

regards,
kolleend









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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna B

When you said screeching and berating, it reminded me -- I was getting my haircut earlier this week, and there were 4 generations of one family (all women, except for the grandson, who was probably maybe 2) getting cuts/styling, whatever. The great-grandmother watched the child for a few minutes while his mother got something from the store next door. She SCREAMED at this kid, in this little salon, "SIT DOWN, STAY THERE, NOW, NOW, ....etc" with this dog-like growl in her voice. I turned to look, while trying to get my own baby to stay calm (he doesn't like yelling, sometimes he cries) and a lady at the cashier counter turned and started to comment. But, the great-grandmother was yelling so loud, she heard nothing. Then, mom came in, the kid was fine, and no one acted like anything had happened. The gg finally said "he's a handful!" or something like that (it wasn't as nice as saying 'handful' and the mom says oh yes, he is, which amazed me in itself..he was a typical 2 yo, imho) and then walked away to get her haircut. She came up to me about 15 mins later telling me how well-behaved my 6 yod was and how pretty, etc. She was so sweet, it was hard to remember she'd been screeching not long before. Sort of sad, because she was obviously of the old school temperament of 'children should be still and quiet,' which my dd was -- she was getting her haircut, but she should see her other times LOL

D
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] good and bad children


I have and the kidlets head for the hills <g> They know sh*ts gonna hit the
fan! I don't make a fuss over "a" swat on the hinney but if they are
actually hitting or screeching or degrading or any of the mirade of other
abusive behaviors, the parent is fair game!

Actually, in one case, I asked the mom if she'd just like a break and I
would watch her kids for a minute. She was young and had 5 little ones in
tow and you could tell that the older three were pushing buttons. So I
grabbed the hand of the oldest one and the kidlets each took one and off to
toy department we went while mom sat down in the food court and had some
tea.

Lynda

Lynda, who has gone as far as calling the police!
----- Original Message -----
From: Kolleen <Kolleen@...>
To: Unschooling.com <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2001 12:01 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] good and bad children


>
> I've never run into anyone hitting their kids in public. I don't know
> what I would do, I really don't.
>
> What have people done on this list when that situation arises? I'd love
> to be prepared just in case...
>
> regards,
> kolleen
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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>
>
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>
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna B

I don't know that my response will be of any help, but I'd just tell her briefly that I would prefer that if she's got an issue with my child, tell me, and if I feel it's an issue, I'll then speak with my child. Parenting my child is my job, not hers. :)

(But inside, I'd spit nails LOL)

Donna
----- Original Message -----
From: Cindy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 11:07 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] good and bad children




Donna B wrote:
>
> That would have gotten to me as well! I dislike when other people try to discipline, coerce or otherwise, in short, tell my child what to do. I'd have said something too when the grandmother called him 'bad boy.' That wasn't her place, even if there had truly been something going on.
>
What would you all recommend doing to a mother who refers to your child
as bossy? And in a bad sense? Megan's best friend's mother tells everyone
that both Megan and Miranda are bossy but that Miranda is the bossiest one.
I see Megan as strong-willed and as a person who knows what she wants and
isn't afraid to ask for it. Coming from my family of origin I see that
as a positive character trait. She did this at the park last week and
it still bugs me and I still haven't figured out a good response.

--

Cindy Ferguson
crma@...

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/22/2001 2:36:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Donnabzy@... writes:


> And personally, though I may make the choice not to spank my child, it's MY
>

in my opninion here (as always). ..this statement is hypocritical . . . I'm
not saying you are Donna. . .bear with me here. Other's choices are forced on
us by way of laws and regulations. We cannot hit other people without being
charged with assault. . . that was someone's or rather several people's
choice to make that law and enforce it on the general public.

Why do parents have the right to hit/spank a child, when there are laws
against hitting others? I am curious to see if anyone has a logical answer to
this because I cannot for the life of me find an answer that makes any sense.

living in abundance
lovemary

I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

It isn't logical but it is the way things work. Laws are generally made by
people who are into power and generally male. Most laws have been handed
down from an earlier time when a lot (sufficient to be a voting majority)
were folks that believed in following what they considered to be biblical
law.

Bottomline, children can't vote so they have no voice.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <lite2yu@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: good and bad children


> In a message dated 12/22/2001 2:36:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> Donnabzy@... writes:
>
>
> > And personally, though I may make the choice not to spank my child, it's
MY
> >
>
> in my opninion here (as always). ..this statement is hypocritical . . .
I'm
> not saying you are Donna. . .bear with me here. Other's choices are forced
on
> us by way of laws and regulations. We cannot hit other people without
being
> charged with assault. . . that was someone's or rather several people's
> choice to make that law and enforce it on the general public.
>
> Why do parents have the right to hit/spank a child, when there are laws
> against hitting others? I am curious to see if anyone has a logical answer
to
> this because I cannot for the life of me find an answer that makes any
sense.
>
> living in abundance
> lovemary
>
> I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have
chosen
> to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
> Remember Who I Am.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/22/2001 8:15:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lurine@... writes:


> Most laws have been handed
> down from an earlier time when a lot (sufficient to be a voting majority)
> were folks that believed in following what they considered to be biblical
> law.
>
> Bottomline, children can't vote so they have no voice.
>
>

Bryan and I were talking about it last night, and I was thinking the
influence for it is patriarchy or religion or both. And he was saying that
mothers hit too, but to me that doesn't mean that it is not patriarchal. ..
.just that the hierarchy is dad, other men, mom, other women, then young
people.

It's just not a good thing as I see it, and when I do see it, I indeed have
the right to say something. Free speech and all. :)

living in abundance
lovemary

I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

Well, it isn't logical and it is not necessarily accurate either. I
can think of one circumstance where one adult can legally spank
another. And I've seen cases where spanking was considered abuse and
the kids remove or parents sent to classes.

As for me personally, I think spanking should not be the standard
practice. But I won't pass judgement on a mom who looses it at a
store and swats a fanny once. I don't know the circumstances so I
would not presume to know what is going on. But if the situation
allows, I try to talk to them and help her get a grip.

Bridget



--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> It isn't logical but it is the way things work. Laws are generally
made by
> people who are into power and generally male. Most laws have been
handed
> down from an earlier time when a lot (sufficient to be a voting
majority)
> were folks that believed in following what they considered to be
biblical
> law.
>
> Bottomline, children can't vote so they have no voice.
>
> Lynda

Lynda

I'm always a little concerned with moms who "loose it" in public places. If
they react that way when they are in public, which usually constrains most
folks, how are they reacting in the privacy of their own homes?

I have no problem with a "swat," I don't consider that something to get
excited about. But screeching and screaming or, we saw this when we were on
vacation in Oregon, a woman picks a two-year-old up by one arm and shakes
them like a rag doll, well, that's abuse.

I also don't think kidlets "belong" to their parents. I don't think they
are chattel or something we own. I think of them as small people that we
are to nuture and guide until they are capable of taking care of themselves.
Mandatory ages just don't work for me for the same reason ps doesn't work.
Kids don't do "x" at age "y" because someone else says so. They also don't
mature at "x" age and are capable of "y".

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: rumpleteasermom <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 5:19 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: good and bad children


> Well, it isn't logical and it is not necessarily accurate either. I
> can think of one circumstance where one adult can legally spank
> another. And I've seen cases where spanking was considered abuse and
> the kids remove or parents sent to classes.
>
> As for me personally, I think spanking should not be the standard
> practice. But I won't pass judgement on a mom who looses it at a
> store and swats a fanny once. I don't know the circumstances so I
> would not presume to know what is going on. But if the situation
> allows, I try to talk to them and help her get a grip.
>
> Bridget
>
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> > It isn't logical but it is the way things work. Laws are generally
> made by
> > people who are into power and generally male. Most laws have been
> handed
> > down from an earlier time when a lot (sufficient to be a voting
> majority)
> > were folks that believed in following what they considered to be
> biblical
> > law.
> >
> > Bottomline, children can't vote so they have no voice.
> >
> > Lynda
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Donna B

Lovemary, I totally see what you're saying -- it is hypocritical to simply say that it's okay to hit kids, but not hit an adult. (There's a lot more to it than that, I think, but simply saying 'hitting' does sound very contradictory.)

My concern, and I probably didn't clarify well, was more about other people butting in and telling people what to do, not the issue of people spanking vs. not spanking. Hope that explains better?

Happy holidays, everyone!
Donna


----- Original Message -----
From: lite2yu@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 12:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: good and bad children


In a message dated 12/22/2001 2:36:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Donnabzy@... writes:


> And personally, though I may make the choice not to spank my child, it's MY
>

in my opninion here (as always). ..this statement is hypocritical . . . I'm
not saying you are Donna. . .bear with me here. Other's choices are forced on
us by way of laws and regulations. We cannot hit other people without being
charged with assault. . . that was someone's or rather several people's
choice to make that law and enforce it on the general public.

Why do parents have the right to hit/spank a child, when there are laws
against hitting others? I am curious to see if anyone has a logical answer to
this because I cannot for the life of me find an answer that makes any sense.

living in abundance
lovemary

I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna B

Thank goodness for free speech, I'll praise that -- but if it was me someone approached because they felt they had the right to comment on my parenting, they'd have to be ready for my right to free speech in return. <G>

Donna
----- Original Message -----
From: lite2yu@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 4:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: good and bad children


In a message dated 12/22/2001 8:15:18 PM Eastern Standard Time,
lurine@... writes:


> Most laws have been handed
> down from an earlier time when a lot (sufficient to be a voting majority)
> were folks that believed in following what they considered to be biblical
> law.
>
> Bottomline, children can't vote so they have no voice.
>
>

Bryan and I were talking about it last night, and I was thinking the
influence for it is patriarchy or religion or both. And he was saying that
mothers hit too, but to me that doesn't mean that it is not patriarchal. ..
.just that the hierarchy is dad, other men, mom, other women, then young
people.

It's just not a good thing as I see it, and when I do see it, I indeed have
the right to say something. Free speech and all. :)

living in abundance
lovemary

I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna B

Bridget, those are similar to my thoughts, though I was hesitant to comment on spanking itself. I really did try to just focus on people telling others what to do...but your post said something I was thinking of, and that is that we don't know the whole story, we don't know the situation, I won't just judge someone a bad parent based on one thing, and I don't think spanking is 100% wrong.

:)
Donna
----- Original Message -----
From: rumpleteasermom
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 5:19 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: good and bad children


Well, it isn't logical and it is not necessarily accurate either. I
can think of one circumstance where one adult can legally spank
another. And I've seen cases where spanking was considered abuse and
the kids remove or parents sent to classes.

As for me personally, I think spanking should not be the standard
practice. But I won't pass judgement on a mom who looses it at a
store and swats a fanny once. I don't know the circumstances so I
would not presume to know what is going on. But if the situation
allows, I try to talk to them and help her get a grip.

Bridget



--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> It isn't logical but it is the way things work. Laws are generally
made by
> people who are into power and generally male. Most laws have been
handed
> down from an earlier time when a lot (sufficient to be a voting
majority)
> were folks that believed in following what they considered to be
biblical
> law.
>
> Bottomline, children can't vote so they have no voice.
>
> Lynda


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Donna B

I think some women lose it in public more easily because at home, they don't have to worry so much about what their kids are doing -- as opposed to in public, where they have to maintain their children at usually much more of a restricted level. Just a thought, but I think part of the reason is that the mother (or father) gets nervous about her child crying, making a mess, being too noisy, whatever, and they lose it while trying to restrain the child to prevent the negative reactions of others. Maybe if more people kept their unwanted comments to themselves, parents would worry less about having to keep their kids in line to the point of losing it ;)

Donna


----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 10:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: good and bad children


I'm always a little concerned with moms who "loose it" in public places. If
they react that way when they are in public, which usually constrains most
folks, how are they reacting in the privacy of their own homes?

I have no problem with a "swat," I don't consider that something to get
excited about. But screeching and screaming or, we saw this when we were on
vacation in Oregon, a woman picks a two-year-old up by one arm and shakes
them like a rag doll, well, that's abuse.

I also don't think kidlets "belong" to their parents. I don't think they
are chattel or something we own. I think of them as small people that we
are to nuture and guide until they are capable of taking care of themselves.
Mandatory ages just don't work for me for the same reason ps doesn't work.
Kids don't do "x" at age "y" because someone else says so. They also don't
mature at "x" age and are capable of "y".

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: rumpleteasermom <rumpleteasermom@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 5:19 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: good and bad children


> Well, it isn't logical and it is not necessarily accurate either. I
> can think of one circumstance where one adult can legally spank
> another. And I've seen cases where spanking was considered abuse and
> the kids remove or parents sent to classes.
>
> As for me personally, I think spanking should not be the standard
> practice. But I won't pass judgement on a mom who looses it at a
> store and swats a fanny once. I don't know the circumstances so I
> would not presume to know what is going on. But if the situation
> allows, I try to talk to them and help her get a grip.
>
> Bridget
>
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
> > It isn't logical but it is the way things work. Laws are generally
> made by
> > people who are into power and generally male. Most laws have been
> handed
> > down from an earlier time when a lot (sufficient to be a voting
> majority)
> > were folks that believed in following what they considered to be
> biblical
> > law.
> >
> > Bottomline, children can't vote so they have no voice.
> >
> > Lynda
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/23/2001 3:04:11 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Donnabzy@... writes:



> Thank goodness for free speech, I'll praise that -- but if it was me someone
> approached because they felt they had the right to comment on my parenting,
> they'd have to be ready for my right to free speech in return. <G>
>
>



LOL Donna. . . thats kind of what Bryan said to me. . . of course you have
the right to free speech, and I have the right to lay into you too. . .
sounds like trouble to me (I mean with him!). It's all in how it gets phrased
I guess.

I agree with Lynda's assesment. . . .if someone is hitting or spanking a
child outside of the home, there are some serious issues there. I was
thinking, how might it empower a young person to see another adult stand up
to that parent and tell them it is not okay to hit another living being . . .
how might that young person's life be changed by a simple statement like that
. . . how might that life turn out very differently if their feelings were
affirmed by someone. I can say the risk in getting involved would be well
worth it if it gave some hope to a child. I know that each has chosen their
own particular path and when I come upon a situation like this, I have a
choice as well. My choice is to speak aloud as the spirit moves me to. It's
like throwing a pebble into a pond . . .the ripple effect, touching people's
lives.

As far as judgment goes, we all judge others. We judge other parents
continually by the choices we make regarding them. We judge ourselves as well
(yes, I do see the irony in this statement considering my sig line) on a
myriad of issues. When I say something to another person about their spanking
a child, I am not saying I judge that person to be bad or immoral or
whatever. I do believe I am saying that the action of striking another being
is hurtful, painful emotionally and physically, and extremely damaging to a
young person. To me it is no different than a husband stirking his wife when
she is doing something he thinks is wrong. . . can you imagine getting your
butt or hand slapped in public by your husband because you were too noisy, or
needed to pee AGAIN, or spilled something, or etc. etc etc. There is no
justification for doing it . . . of course, people make mistakes, but if you
are seeing it in public, it is a mistake that is common, and someone needs to
say so and affirm for that young person.

As to how it relates to unschooling, it a young person is spanked/hit and
fears their parents, it follows (to me) that there is very little free choice
in that young person's life. Their choices are motivated by fear and doing
the "right" thing, not by intrinsic motivation, hence unschooling would not
be able to trule occur.

living in abundance
lovemary

I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah Carothers

I think I'd loan her a book about strong women, you know... something
that emphasises all the positive things about that trait. Raising a
small child who is strong-willed can be difficult and I'd imagine a
person could not see beyond that age/stage and only think in a
negative vein. However, if you could say "yeah, but just think what
powerful leaders they'll be when they're grown" or something along
those lines.
To fuss at the lady for calling your child bossy won't get you
anywhere imo. Better to find a positive side of the situation and go
with that angle.
JMHO,
Sarah Carothers

On Thu, 20 Dec 2001 11:07:16 -0800, Cindy wrote:
>What would you all recommend doing to a mother who
>refers to your child
>as bossy? And in a bad sense? Megan's best friend's
>mother tells everyone
>that both Megan and Miranda are bossy but that Miranda
>is the bossiest one.
>I see Megan as strong-willed and as a person who knows
>what she wants and
>isn't afraid to ask for it.




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