Re: Speaking of dogs
Pam Hartley
----------
Or, do your research, talk to breeders and trainers and vets and shelters,
read some good books and sign up for training classes early and often.
Read Good Owners, Great Dogs by Brian Kilcommons. Read breed selection
books. Read How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend and The Art of Raising a Puppy
by the Monks of New Skete. Go to a dog show and talk to the breeders. Go to
an obedience trial and talk to trainers. Go online and look for websites
pertaining to the breeds you're thinking about.
By the way, there's no such thing as a Golden Lab. You're either looking for
a Golden Retriever or a yellow Labrador Retriever (they also come in black
and chocolate).
Any (sane) dog can meet the criteria you've listed -- with training. How
much training varies breed to breed and individual to individual. Once in a
blue moon you will run across a dog who seems to have been born trained. You
will run though a lot of dogs looking for that dog, so I'd advise being well
prepared and well educated to train one yourself, instead.
Adding a dog to the family is somewhat like adding another child. And as all
us Moms should know, when another child enters the household (even a
four-legged one) we're going to be doing the bulk of the work.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Buy them a nice stuffed animal.
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1684
>Date: Wed, Dec 12, 2001, 3:39 AM
>
> The point of the story is that I want to know ahead of time what the
> plan is for training this puppy. I want a puppy who can stay inside,
> who won't jump on the table or counters and steal food, won't knock
> over the garbage cans, and won't go to the bathroom in the house. I
> want a puppy who the kids can take out in the yard to play with and
> he'll stay there. What do I need to do?
Or, do your research, talk to breeders and trainers and vets and shelters,
read some good books and sign up for training classes early and often.
Read Good Owners, Great Dogs by Brian Kilcommons. Read breed selection
books. Read How to Be Your Dog's Best Friend and The Art of Raising a Puppy
by the Monks of New Skete. Go to a dog show and talk to the breeders. Go to
an obedience trial and talk to trainers. Go online and look for websites
pertaining to the breeds you're thinking about.
By the way, there's no such thing as a Golden Lab. You're either looking for
a Golden Retriever or a yellow Labrador Retriever (they also come in black
and chocolate).
Any (sane) dog can meet the criteria you've listed -- with training. How
much training varies breed to breed and individual to individual. Once in a
blue moon you will run across a dog who seems to have been born trained. You
will run though a lot of dogs looking for that dog, so I'd advise being well
prepared and well educated to train one yourself, instead.
Adding a dog to the family is somewhat like adding another child. And as all
us Moms should know, when another child enters the household (even a
four-legged one) we're going to be doing the bulk of the work.
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/2001 7:26:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
the Golden she got, including financial responsibility (food, vet bills,
equipment, purchasing her, etc). It has been the best unschooling project.
She did all the research on it for almost a year and knows more about dogs
than anyone I know personally. She got a job at a dog training and day care
place (started with volunteering), has trained her dog by doing all the
reading and studying, talking to trainers, and then working with trainers
where she works, and is now going to start her own training business. She is
also planning on attending a camp for trainers when she saves up enough
money. For a 12 year old she shows remarkable responsibility, something I
attribute to be completely unschooled. She has unlimited time and freedom to
follow this interest and it shows in her knowledge and understanding of
animals.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
> And as allWith Lelia, the exact opposite is true. She has taken full responsibility for
> us Moms should know, when another child enters the household (even a
> four-legged one) we're going to be doing the bulk of the work.
>
the Golden she got, including financial responsibility (food, vet bills,
equipment, purchasing her, etc). It has been the best unschooling project.
She did all the research on it for almost a year and knows more about dogs
than anyone I know personally. She got a job at a dog training and day care
place (started with volunteering), has trained her dog by doing all the
reading and studying, talking to trainers, and then working with trainers
where she works, and is now going to start her own training business. She is
also planning on attending a camp for trainers when she saves up enough
money. For a 12 year old she shows remarkable responsibility, something I
attribute to be completely unschooled. She has unlimited time and freedom to
follow this interest and it shows in her knowledge and understanding of
animals.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/01 5:44:17 PM Pacific Standard Time, lite2yu@...
writes:
along. But we are getting there....just had to do alot of deschooling!!!
Nicole
Yucaipa CA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> . For a 12 year old she shows remarkable responsibility, something II thinks this is absolutely wonderful!!! I wish we had been unschooling all
> attribute to be completely unschooled. She has unlimited time and freedom
> to
> follow this interest and it shows in her knowledge and understanding of
> animals.
>
> living in abundance
> lovemary
>
along. But we are getting there....just had to do alot of deschooling!!!
Nicole
Yucaipa CA
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/2001 8:58:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, CNicM@...
writes:
all of our lives. :) It is a process.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> I wish we had been unschooling allI understand Nicole. Sometimes, I think my husband and I will be deschooling
> along. But we are getting there....just had to do a lot of deschooling!!!
>
> Nicole
>
all of our lives. :) It is a process.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbmatlock
Lovemary, I would have given *anything* to have been able to focus on
dogs when I was your daughter's age. I wasn't allowed to have a dog
until I was 11. Our encyclopedia would fall open to the dogs article,
I haunted dog-owning friends, I read literally every book in the
school library about them. School just got in the way of what I knew
was my calling. Tell her I send best wishes and that she's far ahead
of people twice her age. (But I'm sure she already knows that!)
Karen
dogs when I was your daughter's age. I wasn't allowed to have a dog
until I was 11. Our encyclopedia would fall open to the dogs article,
I haunted dog-owning friends, I read literally every book in the
school library about them. School just got in the way of what I knew
was my calling. Tell her I send best wishes and that she's far ahead
of people twice her age. (But I'm sure she already knows that!)
Karen
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., lite2yu@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 12/12/2001 7:26:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> pamhartley@m... writes:
>
>
> > And as all
> > us Moms should know, when another child enters the household
(even a
> > four-legged one) we're going to be doing the bulk of the work.
> >
>
> With Lelia, the exact opposite is true. She has taken full
responsibility for
> the Golden she got, including financial responsibility (food, vet
bills,
> equipment, purchasing her, etc). It has been the best unschooling
project.
> She did all the research on it for almost a year and knows more
about dogs
> than anyone I know personally. She got a job at a dog training and
day care
> place (started with volunteering), has trained her dog by doing all
the
> reading and studying, talking to trainers, and then working with
trainers
> where she works, and is now going to start her own training
business. She is
> also planning on attending a camp for trainers when she saves up
enough
> money. For a 12 year old she shows remarkable responsibility,
something I
> attribute to be completely unschooled. She has unlimited time and
freedom to
> follow this interest and it shows in her knowledge and
understanding of
> animals.
>
> living in abundance
> lovemary
>
> I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I
have chosen
> to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn,
and
> Remember Who I Am.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/12/2001 10:07:08 PM Eastern Standard Time,
kbmatlock@... writes:
cats as well. She did call around (when she was looking for volunteer
opportunities) vets but kept getting turned down. She then realized her
interest were in training and the care of dogs, but not necessarily vet
related. The first place she called for training, said, sure, come on in
whenever you want. So it was a sign it was the right thing for her. She could
change her mind at some point and decide she wants to do something entirely
different, and that would be fine. I would not consider what she is doing
wasted time at all. I have had several different career paths and am going to
embark on a new one next year, so to me change is just a great learning
adventure.
living in abundance
lovemary
PS. She thinks its really cool there is a vet and a dog trainer on the
unschooling list!!
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kbmatlock@... writes:
> I read literally every book in theThanks Karen. . . I will tell her. That's how she is about books on dogs and
> school library about them. School just got in the way of what I knew
> was my calling. Tell her I send best wishes and that she's far ahead
> of people twice her age. (But I'm sure she already knows that!)
>
>
cats as well. She did call around (when she was looking for volunteer
opportunities) vets but kept getting turned down. She then realized her
interest were in training and the care of dogs, but not necessarily vet
related. The first place she called for training, said, sure, come on in
whenever you want. So it was a sign it was the right thing for her. She could
change her mind at some point and decide she wants to do something entirely
different, and that would be fine. I would not consider what she is doing
wasted time at all. I have had several different career paths and am going to
embark on a new one next year, so to me change is just a great learning
adventure.
living in abundance
lovemary
PS. She thinks its really cool there is a vet and a dog trainer on the
unschooling list!!
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jessi
Please remember the mixed breed dogs! They are wonderful. No, they may
not be as showy as many of the pure bred ones but trust me, most of them
have the biggest hearts and are just as loyal. Plus you avoid many of the
genetic problems the pure bred dogs can have.
Best thing you could do is adopt a dog off "death row" or from a no kill
shelter and give it a chance to have love! Working for a shelter, I see so
many wonderful dogs come through here. So many of them get passed over due
to not being a pure bred dog or that is all the people want...but at least
they have food, shelter and someone who cares here...
Jessi
<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**
Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve.
~ Roger Lewin ~
<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**
not be as showy as many of the pure bred ones but trust me, most of them
have the biggest hearts and are just as loyal. Plus you avoid many of the
genetic problems the pure bred dogs can have.
Best thing you could do is adopt a dog off "death row" or from a no kill
shelter and give it a chance to have love! Working for a shelter, I see so
many wonderful dogs come through here. So many of them get passed over due
to not being a pure bred dog or that is all the people want...but at least
they have food, shelter and someone who cares here...
Jessi
<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**
Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve.
~ Roger Lewin ~
<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**
kayb85
I tried to do that once when dd wanted a kitten. I went to the spca.
What an organization! I would never donate to them or visit them
again. You can't own a pet from there, you "borrow" their pet. You
sign a form stating that the pet will be neutered within a certain
period of time or the cat will be taken back, that the pet will
receive all of its vaccines and the cat will be given an implant that
will allow it to be tracked. And they wonder why people don't adopt
their pets!
Sheila
What an organization! I would never donate to them or visit them
again. You can't own a pet from there, you "borrow" their pet. You
sign a form stating that the pet will be neutered within a certain
period of time or the cat will be taken back, that the pet will
receive all of its vaccines and the cat will be given an implant that
will allow it to be tracked. And they wonder why people don't adopt
their pets!
Sheila
> Best thing you could do is adopt a dog off "death row" or from a nokill
> shelter and give it a chance to have love! Working for a shelter, Isee so
> many wonderful dogs come through here. So many of them get passedover due
> to not being a pure bred dog or that is all the people want...but atleast
> they have food, shelter and someone who cares here...to solve.
>
> Jessi
>
>
>
>
>
> <<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**
> Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems
> ~ Roger Lewin ~
> <<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**<<**
Jessi
Ok, let me see if I can explain some of this while fixing dinner LOL...
You have to sign a form from any organization stating that you are adopting
a pet...this is for their records and for the state which does check these
out if there is a problem.
Spay and neutering is also required by 6 months as that is when the animal
becomes "adult" and can reproduce. We are all trying to keep the number of
unwanted animals down so this has to be enforced or well, one cat has 3-8
kittens and 6 months later there are say 3 more cats pregnant from that
litter and so on...also, this is state mandated as well.
Shots are also a requirement for the health of an animal but truthfully,
the shelters are too busy to check into it and see. They would spend 99.9%
of their time on the phone to different vets trying to do this and some
people do them on their own...
The implant is for YOUR protection, not to track the animal in the manner
in which I think you mean. If the dog/cat ever got away from you, there
would be a way to get it back to you. We honestly wish more people had
them when we find their animals...I have seen many kids in tears when the
family pet disappeared or took a dog on vacation and it happened to break
off its leash or slipped its collar and was gone in a flash.
Most of what they do on applications/contracts is to make people realize
the importance that their pet carries. They are trying to make people
responsible for their pets so that our jobs are easier in rescue. If
people got their animals spayed and neutered, there would be no real need
for rescue groups anymore. Some countries do not have them as they
regulate animal husbandry so much.
Our contracts have the same thing on it about taking the dogs back if not
spay/neutered on time and if that and the shots are not done, you could be
fined $150 dollars...it is a protection to the animals who have already
been through a lot in their life.
At 10:39 PM 12/13/01 +0000, you wrote:
You have to sign a form from any organization stating that you are adopting
a pet...this is for their records and for the state which does check these
out if there is a problem.
Spay and neutering is also required by 6 months as that is when the animal
becomes "adult" and can reproduce. We are all trying to keep the number of
unwanted animals down so this has to be enforced or well, one cat has 3-8
kittens and 6 months later there are say 3 more cats pregnant from that
litter and so on...also, this is state mandated as well.
Shots are also a requirement for the health of an animal but truthfully,
the shelters are too busy to check into it and see. They would spend 99.9%
of their time on the phone to different vets trying to do this and some
people do them on their own...
The implant is for YOUR protection, not to track the animal in the manner
in which I think you mean. If the dog/cat ever got away from you, there
would be a way to get it back to you. We honestly wish more people had
them when we find their animals...I have seen many kids in tears when the
family pet disappeared or took a dog on vacation and it happened to break
off its leash or slipped its collar and was gone in a flash.
Most of what they do on applications/contracts is to make people realize
the importance that their pet carries. They are trying to make people
responsible for their pets so that our jobs are easier in rescue. If
people got their animals spayed and neutered, there would be no real need
for rescue groups anymore. Some countries do not have them as they
regulate animal husbandry so much.
Our contracts have the same thing on it about taking the dogs back if not
spay/neutered on time and if that and the shots are not done, you could be
fined $150 dollars...it is a protection to the animals who have already
been through a lot in their life.
At 10:39 PM 12/13/01 +0000, you wrote:
>I tried to do that once when dd wanted a kitten. I went to the spca.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>What an organization! I would never donate to them or visit them
>again. You can't own a pet from there, you "borrow" their pet. You
>sign a form stating that the pet will be neutered within a certain
>period of time or the cat will be taken back, that the pet will
>receive all of its vaccines and the cat will be given an implant that
>will allow it to be tracked. And they wonder why people don't adopt
>their pets!
>Sheila
>
>c0527c7.jpg
Kolleen
>Lynda writes:Lynda wrote some profound words on the issue at hand. I hope you consider
>If your child wants that experience, instead of adding to a major problem,
>have you considered either renting a video or contacting a local breeder to
>see if they will let her watch a whelping of one of their dogs?
them dearly.
I worked for years on anti-vivesection and against animal testing. Most
of the unwanted end up there if they aren't lucky enough to get
euthanized.
regards,
Kolleen
Lynda
The application process started because of a problem with some folks going
around to shelters to get animals to sell to labs. Desperate/unethical labs
will buy anything. Good/ethical labs only buy animals bred for the purpose
because testing an then be standardized.
Lynda
around to shelters to get animals to sell to labs. Desperate/unethical labs
will buy anything. Good/ethical labs only buy animals bred for the purpose
because testing an then be standardized.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Jessi <mistycal@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2001 6:04 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Speaking of dogs
> Ok, let me see if I can explain some of this while fixing dinner LOL...
>
> You have to sign a form from any organization stating that you are
adopting
> a pet...this is for their records and for the state which does check these
> out if there is a problem.
>
> Spay and neutering is also required by 6 months as that is when the animal
> becomes "adult" and can reproduce. We are all trying to keep the number
of
> unwanted animals down so this has to be enforced or well, one cat has 3-8
> kittens and 6 months later there are say 3 more cats pregnant from that
> litter and so on...also, this is state mandated as well.
>
> Shots are also a requirement for the health of an animal but truthfully,
> the shelters are too busy to check into it and see. They would spend
99.9%
> of their time on the phone to different vets trying to do this and some
> people do them on their own...
>
> The implant is for YOUR protection, not to track the animal in the manner
> in which I think you mean. If the dog/cat ever got away from you, there
> would be a way to get it back to you. We honestly wish more people had
> them when we find their animals...I have seen many kids in tears when the
> family pet disappeared or took a dog on vacation and it happened to break
> off its leash or slipped its collar and was gone in a flash.
>
> Most of what they do on applications/contracts is to make people realize
> the importance that their pet carries. They are trying to make people
> responsible for their pets so that our jobs are easier in rescue. If
> people got their animals spayed and neutered, there would be no real need
> for rescue groups anymore. Some countries do not have them as they
> regulate animal husbandry so much.
>
> Our contracts have the same thing on it about taking the dogs back if not
> spay/neutered on time and if that and the shots are not done, you could be
> fined $150 dollars...it is a protection to the animals who have already
> been through a lot in their life.
>
> At 10:39 PM 12/13/01 +0000, you wrote:
> >I tried to do that once when dd wanted a kitten. I went to the spca.
> >What an organization! I would never donate to them or visit them
> >again. You can't own a pet from there, you "borrow" their pet. You
> >sign a form stating that the pet will be neutered within a certain
> >period of time or the cat will be taken back, that the pet will
> >receive all of its vaccines and the cat will be given an implant that
> >will allow it to be tracked. And they wonder why people don't adopt
> >their pets!
> >Sheila
> >
> >c0527c7.jpg
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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Fetteroll
on 12/13/01 5:39 PM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:
be pretty successful in placing pets. At at least one place the animals are
neutered before they leave the shelter (at 3 months) and most shots are
given. And yes the implant is so the owner can (hopefully!) be reunited with
a lost pet.
One place wanted to see either a deed or tax bill to prove home ownership.
The shelters have *lots* of animals turned in because the pet's owners moved
to a new apartment and the new landlord didn't allow pets.
I think they're wonderful! Probably if you saw what they see -- the massive
number of unplanned kittens and puppies turned in and sick animals and so
forth -- the reasons for the regulations would make a lot more sense.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I tried to do that once when dd wanted a kitten. I went to the spca.There seem to be even more regulations in Mass and the MSPCA here seems to
> What an organization! I would never donate to them or visit them
> again. You can't own a pet from there, you "borrow" their pet. You
> sign a form stating that the pet will be neutered within a certain
> period of time or the cat will be taken back, that the pet will
> receive all of its vaccines and the cat will be given an implant that
> will allow it to be tracked. And they wonder why people don't adopt
> their pets!
be pretty successful in placing pets. At at least one place the animals are
neutered before they leave the shelter (at 3 months) and most shots are
given. And yes the implant is so the owner can (hopefully!) be reunited with
a lost pet.
One place wanted to see either a deed or tax bill to prove home ownership.
The shelters have *lots* of animals turned in because the pet's owners moved
to a new apartment and the new landlord didn't allow pets.
I think they're wonderful! Probably if you saw what they see -- the massive
number of unplanned kittens and puppies turned in and sick animals and so
forth -- the reasons for the regulations would make a lot more sense.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jessi
>Joyce,
>I think they're wonderful! Probably if you saw what they see -- the massive
>number of unplanned kittens and puppies turned in and sick animals and so
>forth -- the reasons for the regulations would make a lot more sense.
>
>Joyce
You are so right on with this! It is sad to me. I have a pup here that
may never find a home due to his not bonding with people. He was neglected
and abused so early in life that he does not trust humans at all. It is so
sad to see as he is a small cute little guy.
I hate the fact that we get so many dogs and cats in. I think of how
spoiled mine all are and it makes me sad to see how some beautiful animals
are kept.
Jessi
Tia Leschke
>And yet with rules like requiring home-ownership, I would never in my whole
>
>One place wanted to see either a deed or tax bill to prove home ownership.
>The shelters have *lots* of animals turned in because the pet's owners moved
>to a new apartment and the new landlord didn't allow pets.
>
>I think they're wonderful! Probably if you saw what they see -- the massive
>number of unplanned kittens and puppies turned in and sick animals and so
>forth -- the reasons for the regulations would make a lot more sense.
life have been allowed to adopt a pet. I think that one goes too far.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
kayb85
It isn't state mandated to have you dog or cat spayed or neutered!
The SPCA might require it, but if you get your pet from the free ads
in the paper, you don't have to. Dd has a female kitty and is
planning on getting a male kitty. She wants to experience watching
cats have kittens.
option. No thanks, I decline.
The SPCA might require it, but if you get your pet from the free ads
in the paper, you don't have to. Dd has a female kitty and is
planning on getting a male kitty. She wants to experience watching
cats have kittens.
> Spay and neutering is also required by 6 months as that is when theanimal
> becomes "adult" and can reproduce. We are all trying to keep thenumber of
> unwanted animals down so this has to be enforced or well, one cathas 3-8
> kittens and 6 months later there are say 3 more cats pregnant fromthat
> litter and so on...also, this is state mandated as well.If the implant is for my protetction, then it should also be my
option. No thanks, I decline.
> The implant is for YOUR protection, not to track the animal in themanner
> in which I think you mean.Sheila
Lynda
Oh boy, fur is gonna fly but here goes anyway. The whole reason places like
the local pound/SPCA, etc. are in business and why they require
spaying/neutering is because people do what you are planning to do. The
result is usually a bunch of unwanted kittens and puppies.
If your child wants that experience, instead of adding to a major problem,
have you considered either renting a video or contacting a local breeder to
see if they will let her watch a whelping of one of their dogs?
Also, how old is your child? Are you and your child prepared for what takes
place when cats breed? Is your child really prepared for the whining,
crying, yowling and screaming the queen and tom are going to do? Is your
child really aware of what the birth process is like when a queen kindles
for the first time, particularly if you breed her too young? Is your child
prepared for the blood? Is your child prepared for the queen to eat the
after birth? Are you prepared for the tom to become territorial and the
resulting marking of his territory by spraying all your furniture?
Also the implants are more for the animals protections so that they don't
become one more statistic and end up in cheap end dog and cat food as
"animal digest."
Lynda
the local pound/SPCA, etc. are in business and why they require
spaying/neutering is because people do what you are planning to do. The
result is usually a bunch of unwanted kittens and puppies.
If your child wants that experience, instead of adding to a major problem,
have you considered either renting a video or contacting a local breeder to
see if they will let her watch a whelping of one of their dogs?
Also, how old is your child? Are you and your child prepared for what takes
place when cats breed? Is your child really prepared for the whining,
crying, yowling and screaming the queen and tom are going to do? Is your
child really aware of what the birth process is like when a queen kindles
for the first time, particularly if you breed her too young? Is your child
prepared for the blood? Is your child prepared for the queen to eat the
after birth? Are you prepared for the tom to become territorial and the
resulting marking of his territory by spraying all your furniture?
Also the implants are more for the animals protections so that they don't
become one more statistic and end up in cheap end dog and cat food as
"animal digest."
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: kayb85 <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 14, 2001 5:08 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Speaking of dogs
> It isn't state mandated to have you dog or cat spayed or neutered!
> The SPCA might require it, but if you get your pet from the free ads
> in the paper, you don't have to. Dd has a female kitty and is
> planning on getting a male kitty. She wants to experience watching
> cats have kittens.
>
> > Spay and neutering is also required by 6 months as that is when the
> animal
> > becomes "adult" and can reproduce. We are all trying to keep the
> number of
> > unwanted animals down so this has to be enforced or well, one cat
> has 3-8
> > kittens and 6 months later there are say 3 more cats pregnant from
> that
> > litter and so on...also, this is state mandated as well.
>
>
> If the implant is for my protetction, then it should also be my
> option. No thanks, I decline.
>
> > The implant is for YOUR protection, not to track the animal in the
> manner
> > in which I think you mean.
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
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Pam Hartley
----------
over your house to mark territory. A female cat, especially a first-time
mother, will try to hide to have her kittens. If you find her and disturb
her, she is likely to eat them.
Cats can and do die having kittens. Kittens die from birth defects or
inexperienced mothering. Finding homes for kittens can be difficult. Finding
a home for a male cat who is spraying urine can be impossible.
If your cat runs in to trouble giving birth, are you ready for the vet
bills? It can go into the hundreds if not thousands of dollars if she needs
a c-section and prolonged hospitalization, and after the surgery some cats
won't recognize the kittens as theirs and will let them die, or kill them.
Some cats don't thrive after surgery and can't nurse, so you will have to
tube feed kittens (insert a tube through their mouths to their stomachs,
trying not to miss and hit the lungs, which will drown them) who will
probably die anyway from lack of maternal care and antibodies.
And if you don't go to the vet for the c-section, the cat dies of death by
torture, and her kittens with her.
Animal breeding is not a lark.
Pam
>From: [email protected]A male cat who is used for breeding will almost certainly spray urine all
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1687
>Date: Fri, Dec 14, 2001, 6:50 PM
>
> Dd has a female kitty and is
> planning on getting a male kitty. She wants to experience watching
> cats have kittens.
over your house to mark territory. A female cat, especially a first-time
mother, will try to hide to have her kittens. If you find her and disturb
her, she is likely to eat them.
Cats can and do die having kittens. Kittens die from birth defects or
inexperienced mothering. Finding homes for kittens can be difficult. Finding
a home for a male cat who is spraying urine can be impossible.
If your cat runs in to trouble giving birth, are you ready for the vet
bills? It can go into the hundreds if not thousands of dollars if she needs
a c-section and prolonged hospitalization, and after the surgery some cats
won't recognize the kittens as theirs and will let them die, or kill them.
Some cats don't thrive after surgery and can't nurse, so you will have to
tube feed kittens (insert a tube through their mouths to their stomachs,
trying not to miss and hit the lungs, which will drown them) who will
probably die anyway from lack of maternal care and antibodies.
And if you don't go to the vet for the c-section, the cat dies of death by
torture, and her kittens with her.
Animal breeding is not a lark.
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/14/2001 10:01:54 PM Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
let our female cat breed and never had a problem finding homes for the
kittens or we would keep them ourselves. Now, we have two male cats who are
both neutered, although we did have one who was not and he was less of a
nuisance than one of the ones we have now who is. We never did actually see a
live birth with the kittens, but they would always let us hold them, etc.
afterwards, when we found out where they were. Sometimes they would move
them, but usually not. We did actually see live births with our boxers who we
were breeding. I think some of Lelia's fascination with animals comes from
those earlier days, and she may end up with a career in something to do with
animals.
I can also understand the other viewpoint of keeping them spayed or neutered
as well, when one won't have the time or inclination to take care of the
animals. (and also the very real facts of unwanted kittens and puppies) Where
we live now out in the country, we could use about 2 dozen cats to keep up
with the mouse population. Our two do the best they can, but cannot keep up
with the mice. I have almost resigned myself to living with mice as it has
been so hard to get rid of them. A few weeks ago, we had a wonderful
entertainment special every night, when the cats would catch a mouse in the
house, lose it and have us running all around trying to help them find it
again. One night my husband actually had a mouse that had gotten into his
pants leg somehow and he ended up sitting on it and killing it. He said he
pulled that mouse out of his ass. :)
I know I really got off onto another story, but just wanted to add another
side.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
> Animal breeding is not a lark.Seems as though there are some passionate opinions on this one. We used to
>
>
let our female cat breed and never had a problem finding homes for the
kittens or we would keep them ourselves. Now, we have two male cats who are
both neutered, although we did have one who was not and he was less of a
nuisance than one of the ones we have now who is. We never did actually see a
live birth with the kittens, but they would always let us hold them, etc.
afterwards, when we found out where they were. Sometimes they would move
them, but usually not. We did actually see live births with our boxers who we
were breeding. I think some of Lelia's fascination with animals comes from
those earlier days, and she may end up with a career in something to do with
animals.
I can also understand the other viewpoint of keeping them spayed or neutered
as well, when one won't have the time or inclination to take care of the
animals. (and also the very real facts of unwanted kittens and puppies) Where
we live now out in the country, we could use about 2 dozen cats to keep up
with the mouse population. Our two do the best they can, but cannot keep up
with the mice. I have almost resigned myself to living with mice as it has
been so hard to get rid of them. A few weeks ago, we had a wonderful
entertainment special every night, when the cats would catch a mouse in the
house, lose it and have us running all around trying to help them find it
again. One night my husband actually had a mouse that had gotten into his
pants leg somehow and he ended up sitting on it and killing it. He said he
pulled that mouse out of his ass. :)
I know I really got off onto another story, but just wanted to add another
side.
living in abundance
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kolleen
>kayb85 writes:"Rule over them" doesn't explictly discuss animal experiments. The reason
>I believe that we are caretakers of the earth. I have really become
>convicted lately of all the garbage we throw out that will never
>decompose, or will possibly decompose thousands of years from now. I
>am hugely in favor of recycling. I also believe that we are to care
>for animals. We are also to use them for our benefit. "Rule over
>them" is the exact wording. We may eat them, make clothes out of
>them, conduct experiments on them. Dd also wants to breed rabbits for
>medical labs and I have no problems with that. That doesn't mean we
>go shooting everything that moves just for the fun of killing. That
>isn't being a good caretaker. It does mean that when there is a
>legitimate use for an animal, you use the animal for whatever it is
>you need.
they use rabbits is because they don't make that much noise when being
tortured in experiments. Yes, the same experiments that the Nazi's used
on people is sanctioned by thoughts like this on animals.
This has nothing to do with eating them for survival in a natural order
of the food chain. (This goes back to the age-old discussion of whether
humans are supposed to be carnivorous or herbivorous, but lets not get
into that)
Survival of the fittest hasn't been naturally in action since man has
severly screwed up the ecosystem and the natural order of the food chain
(such as bringing one animal to another country that then has no
predator, but kills another species that then the whole chain is messed
up) see Austraila in the 30s if you really want to see how mankind has
put the royal screws to natural order.
I find it utterly repulsive that people are clammering over human cloning
WHICH is nothing but a few division of cells ONLY to extract the stem
cells to create cures and NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE, yet
they have no problems with torturing the inhabitants of the earth for
research that has been proven more than once not to work in cross-species.
Stem cell research, live tissue cells are going to find cures and
strengthen a failing medical system.
The continuation of torture will only keep yielding the same assinine
results of mass drugs that don't work beyond suppression of symptoms.
Do you really think something good can come out of something so volatile?
Do you really think that someone who has no regard for life has empathy
for the future of this world at all?
And let not even go into religious aspects of it. Because history will
prove the never-ending mass destruction and genocide carried out in the
name of religion.
Respect for life doesnt' include torture.
with no apolgies,
Kolleen
Kolleen
>kayb85 writes:As previously stated by someone else, there are plenty of shelters, farms
>I think she deserves to make an informed choice too. However, her
>decision, after making an informed choice and listening to several
>different opinions on the matter, might be different than the one you
>would make. She might decide to go ahead and breed the cat. Wouldn't
>a true unschooler allow that, even if her decision goes strongly
>against your own deeply held convictions?
or breeders that would prolly be happy to allow the child to experience
something that is already pre-fated.
As a parent, I would ask myself why does my child NEED to ONLY to have it
this way or no way at all when the lesson is the same.
Fetteroll
on 12/14/01 8:08 PM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:
pets that are euthanized by shelters each year is 6 to 8 million? That's
16,000 to 22,000 pets who are killed EVERY DAY. That's like 4-5 World Trade
center tragedies EVERY DAY.
Even if you find homes for all of them, those are homes taken away from pets
who could have been adopted from shelters. There are *way* more pets
available than there are homes for them.
As others have pointed out, you probably won't be able to watch a cat giving
birth. If your daughter wants to experience young kittens, the shelters are
eager for foster families to care for a mom and kittens until they're old
enough to be adopted (3 months). We just went through this with kittens we
fostered at a week old. That way she could experience what's involved before
deciding it's worth it to bring more cats into the world. (And I would give
her the information on the number of pets euthanized so she can make an
informed choice.)
The mom we got had an especially large litter: 10. 3 died before we fostered
her. 2 more died after we got her, one because it was too weak to compete
and refused supplementation. Another probably from complications of Feline
upper respiratory infection, which is very common among kittens. That
involved trips to the vet and medicine that they didn't want 3 times a day
(18 doses a day) plus 3 feedings and litter boxes. (Cat poops have nothing
on kitten poops in terms of aroma, especially since it takes a few months
for kittens to learn to cover effectively.)
Joyce
> It isn't state mandated to have you dog or cat spayed or neutered!Do you know that the estimates of the number of perfectly fine but unwanted
> The SPCA might require it, but if you get your pet from the free ads
> in the paper, you don't have to. Dd has a female kitty and is
> planning on getting a male kitty. She wants to experience watching
> cats have kittens.
pets that are euthanized by shelters each year is 6 to 8 million? That's
16,000 to 22,000 pets who are killed EVERY DAY. That's like 4-5 World Trade
center tragedies EVERY DAY.
Even if you find homes for all of them, those are homes taken away from pets
who could have been adopted from shelters. There are *way* more pets
available than there are homes for them.
As others have pointed out, you probably won't be able to watch a cat giving
birth. If your daughter wants to experience young kittens, the shelters are
eager for foster families to care for a mom and kittens until they're old
enough to be adopted (3 months). We just went through this with kittens we
fostered at a week old. That way she could experience what's involved before
deciding it's worth it to bring more cats into the world. (And I would give
her the information on the number of pets euthanized so she can make an
informed choice.)
The mom we got had an especially large litter: 10. 3 died before we fostered
her. 2 more died after we got her, one because it was too weak to compete
and refused supplementation. Another probably from complications of Feline
upper respiratory infection, which is very common among kittens. That
involved trips to the vet and medicine that they didn't want 3 times a day
(18 doses a day) plus 3 feedings and litter boxes. (Cat poops have nothing
on kitten poops in terms of aroma, especially since it takes a few months
for kittens to learn to cover effectively.)
> If the implant is for my protetction, then it should also be myIt is an option. But why wouldn't you want it?
> option. No thanks, I decline.
Joyce
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
1. Do you have plans for the resulting kittens? They will be your
responsibility.
2. Every vet I ever talked to says that spaying after the first
litter is more difficult for the cat.
3. Neutering a male after he learns to scent won't stop him from
scenting with urine.
4. Bad things can happen. I nearly lost a mom cat and did lose a
kitten because of a labor proplem. We ended up at the emergency vet
clinic because the kitten's shoulder got caught on the mother's
pelvis. That kind of thing is not an experience I'd wish on anyone
or anything. It was HORRIBLE to watch that cat in terror and pain
trying to get the kitten the rest of the way out.
Bridget
> Oh boy, fur is gonna fly but here goes anyway.A couple more consideration:
1. Do you have plans for the resulting kittens? They will be your
responsibility.
2. Every vet I ever talked to says that spaying after the first
litter is more difficult for the cat.
3. Neutering a male after he learns to scent won't stop him from
scenting with urine.
4. Bad things can happen. I nearly lost a mom cat and did lose a
kitten because of a labor proplem. We ended up at the emergency vet
clinic because the kitten's shoulder got caught on the mother's
pelvis. That kind of thing is not an experience I'd wish on anyone
or anything. It was HORRIBLE to watch that cat in terror and pain
trying to get the kitten the rest of the way out.
Bridget
kayb85
Many thoughts are flying through my head as I read the responses to my
daughter's desire to let her cat have kittens.
First, I'll talk about the one that relates directly to unschooling.
It seems to me that when it comes to issues that I would consider
moral issues--letting my daughter listen to secular music or watch
questionable tv, whether or not she had to study her Bible, etc.,
people on this list would usually tell me to stay neutral and let her
make her own decisions! But when it comes to letting a cat have a
litter of kittens, I'm being told, "Don't let her do it! Buy her a
video or let her watch someone else's animals mate!" It seems that
some are willing to look down on a "fundamentalist Christian" for not
letting kids listen to secular music at the same time they encourage a
"politically correct" forbidding of cat breeding. Do we let our kids
do what their interests lead them to or not?
As far as the actual issue of a cat having kittens, I grew up with
female cats who gave birth. In my entire childhood we had only one
cat who was not a good mother. She eventually "caught on" and did
nurse the kittens, but in the beginning we had to "force" her to go
near her kittens.
We NEVER had a hard time giving kittens away. If we didn't get rid of
all of them in the free ads, we found a farmer who was willing to take
them. Farmers often have lots of cats running around to scare off the
mice. They usually just throw a little bit of food and water out and
let the cats fend for themselves. I have fond memories of visiting a
friend's farm as a child and playing with his cats.
What I learned on this list was about the males spraying furniture.
Our male cats at home were always neutered so that they wouldn't roam,
so I really have no personal experience with un-neutered male cats.
Perhaps we'll try to find a friend with a male cat to "borrow". ;)
I've never actually seen a cat give birth because they usually hid to
have their kittens. The picture of my dad climbing the neighbor's
apple tree to bring the kittens and proud mama home is forever
engraved in my mind! lol
I did, however, stay home from school the day it seemed my dog was
going to have her puppies. It turns out she did need "help". She
acted like she didn't know what to do with the first puppy. I had to
"make" her lick it off. She was still having the last of them when my
dad got home from work. I'll never forget him talking on the phone
and looking up to see the dog running around the house with an
umbilical cord still attached and a puppy's head hitting off the
carpet! He just calmly said to the person on the other end of the
phone, "Excuse me", and went over, pulled the dog out the rest of the
way, and resumed his conversations! She did end up being a good mama
though, not only to her puppies but to a little kitten we had who
decided to nurse from the dog too! lol It was hilarious to see a dog
nursing a litter full of puppies and--a kitten!
I know there are horror stories out there of animals having a hard
time giving birth. But you know what? These are ANIMALS, not people.
There is a little rule that applies here called survival of the
fittest. The strong survive, the weak don't. It's sad, but until the
Lord creates a new heaven and earth and wipes out sin and death, it's
a fact of life. A lot of these arguments I'm hearing (the animal
COULD die in birth, the cats MAYBE wouldn't find a new home) sound so
strikingly similar to liberals who want all human women to "get fixed"
or use birth control after their first child. They will go on about
how "over populated" the earth is, how women COULD die in child birth,
etc.
As far as why I don't want the chip implanted in a pet, it's because
even though I realize that "big brother" watches us more than I care
to admit, I don't want to do anything willingly that could give him
opportunity to put his foot in the door.
Sheila
daughter's desire to let her cat have kittens.
First, I'll talk about the one that relates directly to unschooling.
It seems to me that when it comes to issues that I would consider
moral issues--letting my daughter listen to secular music or watch
questionable tv, whether or not she had to study her Bible, etc.,
people on this list would usually tell me to stay neutral and let her
make her own decisions! But when it comes to letting a cat have a
litter of kittens, I'm being told, "Don't let her do it! Buy her a
video or let her watch someone else's animals mate!" It seems that
some are willing to look down on a "fundamentalist Christian" for not
letting kids listen to secular music at the same time they encourage a
"politically correct" forbidding of cat breeding. Do we let our kids
do what their interests lead them to or not?
As far as the actual issue of a cat having kittens, I grew up with
female cats who gave birth. In my entire childhood we had only one
cat who was not a good mother. She eventually "caught on" and did
nurse the kittens, but in the beginning we had to "force" her to go
near her kittens.
We NEVER had a hard time giving kittens away. If we didn't get rid of
all of them in the free ads, we found a farmer who was willing to take
them. Farmers often have lots of cats running around to scare off the
mice. They usually just throw a little bit of food and water out and
let the cats fend for themselves. I have fond memories of visiting a
friend's farm as a child and playing with his cats.
What I learned on this list was about the males spraying furniture.
Our male cats at home were always neutered so that they wouldn't roam,
so I really have no personal experience with un-neutered male cats.
Perhaps we'll try to find a friend with a male cat to "borrow". ;)
I've never actually seen a cat give birth because they usually hid to
have their kittens. The picture of my dad climbing the neighbor's
apple tree to bring the kittens and proud mama home is forever
engraved in my mind! lol
I did, however, stay home from school the day it seemed my dog was
going to have her puppies. It turns out she did need "help". She
acted like she didn't know what to do with the first puppy. I had to
"make" her lick it off. She was still having the last of them when my
dad got home from work. I'll never forget him talking on the phone
and looking up to see the dog running around the house with an
umbilical cord still attached and a puppy's head hitting off the
carpet! He just calmly said to the person on the other end of the
phone, "Excuse me", and went over, pulled the dog out the rest of the
way, and resumed his conversations! She did end up being a good mama
though, not only to her puppies but to a little kitten we had who
decided to nurse from the dog too! lol It was hilarious to see a dog
nursing a litter full of puppies and--a kitten!
I know there are horror stories out there of animals having a hard
time giving birth. But you know what? These are ANIMALS, not people.
There is a little rule that applies here called survival of the
fittest. The strong survive, the weak don't. It's sad, but until the
Lord creates a new heaven and earth and wipes out sin and death, it's
a fact of life. A lot of these arguments I'm hearing (the animal
COULD die in birth, the cats MAYBE wouldn't find a new home) sound so
strikingly similar to liberals who want all human women to "get fixed"
or use birth control after their first child. They will go on about
how "over populated" the earth is, how women COULD die in child birth,
etc.
As far as why I don't want the chip implanted in a pet, it's because
even though I realize that "big brother" watches us more than I care
to admit, I don't want to do anything willingly that could give him
opportunity to put his foot in the door.
Sheila
Fetteroll
on 12/15/01 11:29 AM, kayb85 at sheran@... wrote:
one but herself. It's a learning process that helps her figure herself out
better.
There are far reaching consequences to her choice about breeding a cat that
she won't learn by making her decision in a vaccuum of information. I think
she deserves to make an *informed* choice.
animal life.
But are animals so disposable and unimportant that it makes a child's desire
to see an animal giving birth more important than the lives of fellow living
beings?
Isn't it said in the Bible that man is the caretaker of the earth? I'm quite
sure I wouldn't hire a caretaker that put himself so far above what I was
asking him to take care of.
take on the responsibility of not whimsically endangering their lives. How
responsible is it to bring more pets into the world when they are being
euthanized at the rate of 15 per minute?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But when it comes to letting a cat have aYour daughter's decision to listen to secular music and so forth affects no
> litter of kittens, I'm being told, "Don't let her do it!
one but herself. It's a learning process that helps her figure herself out
better.
There are far reaching consequences to her choice about breeding a cat that
she won't learn by making her decision in a vaccuum of information. I think
she deserves to make an *informed* choice.
> But you know what? These are ANIMALS, not people.I can see someone deciding that a human life is more important than an
animal life.
But are animals so disposable and unimportant that it makes a child's desire
to see an animal giving birth more important than the lives of fellow living
beings?
Isn't it said in the Bible that man is the caretaker of the earth? I'm quite
sure I wouldn't hire a caretaker that put himself so far above what I was
asking him to take care of.
> There is a little rule that applies here called survival of theThat's true of animals in the wild. If we bring animals into our homes we
> fittest.
take on the responsibility of not whimsically endangering their lives. How
responsible is it to bring more pets into the world when they are being
euthanized at the rate of 15 per minute?
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
Politically correct has nothing to do with it. Reality has to do with it.
The reality is that there are an untold number of animals euthenized every
year.
If my kids want to learn about guns, that is their choice. If my kids want
to own a gun, I will give them all the reasons that I don't want any guns in
my house. If they are old enough to make an informed decision and to take
responsibility to for that decision, then they will own guns (thank AOM that
they haven't). However, if they decided they wanted to go out and shot
squirrels and hawks and everyother thing that moved, the anwer would be
"that's where your choices end and my parental responsibilities kick in."
I am curious however as to how your religious beliefs cover this. The
fundamentalist xtians I know don't approve of animals being used as how-to
or science projects. I found their attitude to be very refreshing
particularly the youth groups (from several churches) which have banded
together to raise money to have animals neutered and are trapping, neutering
and finding good farm homes for ferel cats.
Lynda
The reality is that there are an untold number of animals euthenized every
year.
If my kids want to learn about guns, that is their choice. If my kids want
to own a gun, I will give them all the reasons that I don't want any guns in
my house. If they are old enough to make an informed decision and to take
responsibility to for that decision, then they will own guns (thank AOM that
they haven't). However, if they decided they wanted to go out and shot
squirrels and hawks and everyother thing that moved, the anwer would be
"that's where your choices end and my parental responsibilities kick in."
I am curious however as to how your religious beliefs cover this. The
fundamentalist xtians I know don't approve of animals being used as how-to
or science projects. I found their attitude to be very refreshing
particularly the youth groups (from several churches) which have banded
together to raise money to have animals neutered and are trapping, neutering
and finding good farm homes for ferel cats.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: kayb85 <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2001 8:29 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Speaking of dogs
> Many thoughts are flying through my head as I read the responses to my
> daughter's desire to let her cat have kittens.
>
> First, I'll talk about the one that relates directly to unschooling.
> It seems to me that when it comes to issues that I would consider
> moral issues--letting my daughter listen to secular music or watch
> questionable tv, whether or not she had to study her Bible, etc.,
> people on this list would usually tell me to stay neutral and let her
> make her own decisions! But when it comes to letting a cat have a
> litter of kittens, I'm being told, "Don't let her do it! Buy her a
> video or let her watch someone else's animals mate!" It seems that
> some are willing to look down on a "fundamentalist Christian" for not
> letting kids listen to secular music at the same time they encourage a
> "politically correct" forbidding of cat breeding. Do we let our kids
> do what their interests lead them to or not?
>
> As far as the actual issue of a cat having kittens, I grew up with
> female cats who gave birth. In my entire childhood we had only one
> cat who was not a good mother. She eventually "caught on" and did
> nurse the kittens, but in the beginning we had to "force" her to go
> near her kittens.
>
> We NEVER had a hard time giving kittens away. If we didn't get rid of
> all of them in the free ads, we found a farmer who was willing to take
> them. Farmers often have lots of cats running around to scare off the
> mice. They usually just throw a little bit of food and water out and
> let the cats fend for themselves. I have fond memories of visiting a
> friend's farm as a child and playing with his cats.
>
> What I learned on this list was about the males spraying furniture.
> Our male cats at home were always neutered so that they wouldn't roam,
> so I really have no personal experience with un-neutered male cats.
> Perhaps we'll try to find a friend with a male cat to "borrow". ;)
>
> I've never actually seen a cat give birth because they usually hid to
> have their kittens. The picture of my dad climbing the neighbor's
> apple tree to bring the kittens and proud mama home is forever
> engraved in my mind! lol
>
> I did, however, stay home from school the day it seemed my dog was
> going to have her puppies. It turns out she did need "help". She
> acted like she didn't know what to do with the first puppy. I had to
> "make" her lick it off. She was still having the last of them when my
> dad got home from work. I'll never forget him talking on the phone
> and looking up to see the dog running around the house with an
> umbilical cord still attached and a puppy's head hitting off the
> carpet! He just calmly said to the person on the other end of the
> phone, "Excuse me", and went over, pulled the dog out the rest of the
> way, and resumed his conversations! She did end up being a good mama
> though, not only to her puppies but to a little kitten we had who
> decided to nurse from the dog too! lol It was hilarious to see a dog
> nursing a litter full of puppies and--a kitten!
>
> I know there are horror stories out there of animals having a hard
> time giving birth. But you know what? These are ANIMALS, not people.
> There is a little rule that applies here called survival of the
> fittest. The strong survive, the weak don't. It's sad, but until the
> Lord creates a new heaven and earth and wipes out sin and death, it's
> a fact of life. A lot of these arguments I'm hearing (the animal
> COULD die in birth, the cats MAYBE wouldn't find a new home) sound so
> strikingly similar to liberals who want all human women to "get fixed"
> or use birth control after their first child. They will go on about
> how "over populated" the earth is, how women COULD die in child birth,
> etc.
>
> As far as why I don't want the chip implanted in a pet, it's because
> even though I realize that "big brother" watches us more than I care
> to admit, I don't want to do anything willingly that could give him
> opportunity to put his foot in the door.
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
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Fetteroll
on 12/15/01 1:12 PM, Lynda at lurine@... wrote:
experiments we take for granted encourage an unthinking lack of respect for
life like the "raise plants with and without sunlight" experiment. It really
made me think how casually we come to treat things like that in the name of
"science".
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The fundamentalist xtians I know don't approve of animals being usedI recall a fundamentalist Christian pointing out that many science
> as how-to or science projects.
experiments we take for granted encourage an unthinking lack of respect for
life like the "raise plants with and without sunlight" experiment. It really
made me think how casually we come to treat things like that in the name of
"science".
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kayb85
> The reality is that there are an untold number of animals euthenizedevery
> year.That is true. However, it is possible to look at that fact and come
to an opposite conclusion about what to do about it. It would be
entirely possible to come to the conclusion that the right thing to do
would be to stop euthenizing. Let the "unwanted" cats go free and
live in the wild. Some will die, some will not. Either way, they are
a natural part of the food chain and survival of the fittest will come
back into play.
" However, if they decided they wanted to go out and
shot
> squirrels and hawks and everyother thing that moved, the anwer wouldbe
> "that's where your choices end and my parental responsibilities kickin."
I wouldn't allow my children to shoot animals just for the fun of
shooting them. However, if they were shooting squirrels and wanted me
to fix them for supper, that would be great! I've eaten squirrel meat
and it's quite good.
> I am curious however as to how your religious beliefs cover this.The
> fundamentalist xtians I know don't approve of animals being used ashow-to
> or science projects.I believe that we are caretakers of the earth. I have really become
convicted lately of all the garbage we throw out that will never
decompose, or will possibly decompose thousands of years from now. I
am hugely in favor of recycling. I also believe that we are to care
for animals. We are also to use them for our benefit. "Rule over
them" is the exact wording. We may eat them, make clothes out of
them, conduct experiments on them. Dd also wants to breed rabbits for
medical labs and I have no problems with that. That doesn't mean we
go shooting everything that moves just for the fun of killing. That
isn't being a good caretaker. It does mean that when there is a
legitimate use for an animal, you use the animal for whatever it is
you need.
kayb85
> Your daughter's decision to listen to secular music and so forthaffects no
> one but herself. It's a learning process that helps her figureherself out
> better.Some people might argue that certain types of music lead to violent
tendencies, which would most certainly affect others. I'm not
defending this position, but there are people who believe it who would
use the same type of logic for disallowing certain types of music that
you would use for disallowing the breeding of a cat.
> There are far reaching consequences to her choice about breeding acat that
> she won't learn by making her decision in a vaccuum of information.I think
> she deserves to make an *informed* choice.I think she deserves to make an informed choice too. However, her
decision, after making an informed choice and listening to several
different opinions on the matter, might be different than the one you
would make. She might decide to go ahead and breed the cat. Wouldn't
a true unschooler allow that, even if her decision goes strongly
against your own deeply held convictions?
> But are animals so disposable and unimportant that it makes achild's desire
> to see an animal giving birth more important than the lives offellow living
> beings?No, they aren't. If a child desired to do something that would take
the life of an animal, unless it was for food, clothing, shelter, or
some other good use, I would disallow it. However, allowing a cat to
have kittens is not taking the life of a living being. As a matter of
fact, it is giving life to living beings.
> Isn't it said in the Bible that man is the caretaker of the earth?I'm quite
> sure I wouldn't hire a caretaker that put himself so far above whatI was
> asking him to take care of.We are to rule over the animals. That includes responsibly taking
care of them (not killing just for the fun of it or to get a trophy).
It also includes using animals for our benefit and pleasure. If
breeding a cat gives a child an educational experience and provides a
few families and a farmer with some good cats, I see nothing
irresponsible about that. (And yes, I am confident that we could find
a farmer to take the kittens if they weren't given away in the free
ads first.)
> > There is a little rule that applies here called survival of thehomes we
> > fittest.
>
> That's true of animals in the wild. If we bring animals into our
> take on the responsibility of not whimsically endangering theirlives.
But cats are wild animals. True, they are easily domesticated, but
thrown back out into the wild, they will do just fine. We keep our
cat inside strictly as a housecat for the sake of the kids, but my
parents let their cat come and go. Quite often, he leaves "presents"
of half-eaten mice on their doormat. If he were to be abandoned, he
would survive just fine.
Sheila
Sarah Carothers
What are her(your) plans for all those baby kitties? Have you
considered that if you can't find homes for them, they'll need to
live with you? (assuming you plan on giving them away).
Curious..
Sarah
considered that if you can't find homes for them, they'll need to
live with you? (assuming you plan on giving them away).
Curious..
Sarah
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001 01:08:05 -0000, kayb85 wrote:
>Dd has a female kitty
>and is
>planning on getting a male kitty. She wants to
>experience watching
>cats have kittens.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
I hate to "ditto" a post but this one from Lynda needs repeating. All
those considerations should be taken into account when thinking about
breeding animals for *whatever* reason.
Sarah
those considerations should be taken into account when thinking about
breeding animals for *whatever* reason.
Sarah
On Fri, 14 Dec 2001 18:23:10 -0800, Lynda wrote:
> Oh boy, fur is gonna fly but here goes anyway. The whole reason
>places like
>the local pound/SPCA, etc. are in business and why they require
>spaying/neutering is because people do what you are planning to do.
>The
>result is usually a bunch of unwanted kittens and puppies.
>
>If your child wants that experience, instead of adding to a major
>problem,
>have you considered either renting a video or contacting a local
>breeder to
>see if they will let her watch a whelping of one of their dogs?
>
>Also, how old is your child? Are you and your child prepared for
>what takes
>place when cats breed? Is your child really prepared for the
>whining,
>crying, yowling and screaming the queen and tom are going to do? Is
>your
>child really aware of what the birth process is like when a queen
>kindles
>for the first time, particularly if you breed her too young? Is your
>child
>prepared for the blood? Is your child prepared for the queen to eat
>the
>after birth? Are you prepared for the tom to become territorial and
>the
>resulting marking of his territory by spraying all your furniture?
>
>Also the implants are more for the animals protections so that they
>don't
>become one more statistic and end up in cheap end dog and cat food
as
>"animal digest."
>
>Lynda
>----- Original Message -----
>From: kayb85 <sheran@...>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]