Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling/late readers, was OK here is my question :0) How do they learn??
Lynda
Alrighty, first off, let's do a little mental imaging here. We're all
sitting around a kitchen table with coffee, tea, soda, Perrier or fruit
juice. Moi is sitting there leaning her elbows on the table, chin in hands
with this very perplexed look on her face. Ya know the look, just plain
curious. So, please treat this question from where it is coming from.
This is something that has been making me curiousor and curiousor for quite
sometime. I don't think I have a bunch of einstein kidlets here, just a
bunch of lovable individuals who are whiz kids in some areas, just about
average in other areas and just plain "don't get it" in still others. ya
know, just your average mix with a bunch of kids.
So, I keep seeing these statements that unschoolers read later and I'm
wondering why. I mean, I understand and it is to be expected that some
children will learn later than other children as they are all individuals
and not some little wind up toys that are pre-programed to learn things at
certain ages. However, it seems that the stats are somewhat titled.
As a group do you (that would be the generic you) generally not play
learning games with your children when they are little? Do you consider
learning games for little guys to be a no no?
Would it be clearer if I defined my idea of learning games?
Lynda
sitting around a kitchen table with coffee, tea, soda, Perrier or fruit
juice. Moi is sitting there leaning her elbows on the table, chin in hands
with this very perplexed look on her face. Ya know the look, just plain
curious. So, please treat this question from where it is coming from.
This is something that has been making me curiousor and curiousor for quite
sometime. I don't think I have a bunch of einstein kidlets here, just a
bunch of lovable individuals who are whiz kids in some areas, just about
average in other areas and just plain "don't get it" in still others. ya
know, just your average mix with a bunch of kids.
So, I keep seeing these statements that unschoolers read later and I'm
wondering why. I mean, I understand and it is to be expected that some
children will learn later than other children as they are all individuals
and not some little wind up toys that are pre-programed to learn things at
certain ages. However, it seems that the stats are somewhat titled.
As a group do you (that would be the generic you) generally not play
learning games with your children when they are little? Do you consider
learning games for little guys to be a no no?
Would it be clearer if I defined my idea of learning games?
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: groundhoggirl <groundhoggirl@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 07, 2001 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: OK here is my question :0) How do they
learn??
> Hi Sheila,
>
> You're absolutely right. What I wrote really does sound bad. I didn't
> mean it to offend anyone. I honestly don't think there's anything wrong
> with failing tests. That's why I wrote that. Of course, I don't mean
> to assume that all unschoolers will fail standardized tests. I'm sure
> many will do very well.
>
> The reason I wrote that is because some of us who choose to go the
> unschooling route, have kids who naturally start reading at a later age
> than schooled kids. My boys are a good example. They are 7 and I'm
> sure it'll be a few years before they start reading. My unschooled
> friends are all late readers, although there is one who started reading
> early at 4 1/2.
>
> I was referring to these standardized tests that young kids have to take
> in the early grades. If the test-taker is an unschooler and is a late
> reader, s/he probably won't do very well.
>
> That isn't to say they're not bright. They're just doing other things.
> My boys may just barely know their ABC's and their numbers but they sure
> know how to think. They ask very sophisticated question and have an
> extraordinary vocabulary. Both are very interested in history and the
> other day, I spent at least 30 minutes discussing various economic
> systems with them (we were in the car). Leroy just would not stop
> asking those questions. He wants to know everything.
>
> So, I guess what I'm trying to say is that, as unschoolers, we should
> not ALWAYS view failing a test as a bad thing.
>
> Mimi
>
>
> On Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 11:06 PM, kayb85 wrote:
>
> > Now wait a minute. I wouldn't assume that she is going to fail those
> > tests.
> > Sheila
> >
> >> To be honest, I'm not sure if it is possible to unschool in a state
> > like
> >> Maine. They require annual testing. Can you find out how many
> > years in
> >> a row your child can fail the test before she's required to go back
> > to
> >> school? I think the longer a child has the opportunity to
> > unschool, the
> >> better. The older s/he is, the better s/he will be able to put up
> > with
> >> the bull the state requires without much harm to her psyche.
> > That's my
> >> personal opinion. I honestly don't know how else to advise you.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Sarah Carothers
hm......... something to think about, Lynda, but the first thought that came to my mind is that an unschooling family, being more hands-off until signaled, may *not* be playing those games you're referring to. Maybe it's the kid's more natural time-clock to read at 10 or 12 than at 5,6,7ish? Don't get me wrong... I'm not against the games you mentioned because I believe exposure plays a big part in learning and that can *still* imo be unschooling.
Hm...... still thinking on this..
Sarah
Hm...... still thinking on this..
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: Lynda
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling/late readers, was OK here is my question :0) How do they learn??
Alrighty, first off, let's do a little mental imaging here. We're all
sitting around a kitchen table with coffee, tea, soda, Perrier or fruit
juice. Moi is sitting there leaning her elbows on the table, chin in hands
with this very perplexed look on her face. Ya know the look, just plain
curious. So, please treat this question from where it is coming from.
This is something that has been making me curiousor and curiousor for quite
sometime. I don't think I have a bunch of einstein kidlets here, just a
bunch of lovable individuals who are whiz kids in some areas, just about
average in other areas and just plain "don't get it" in still others. ya
know, just your average mix with a bunch of kids.
So, I keep seeing these statements that unschoolers read later and I'm
wondering why. I mean, I understand and it is to be expected that some
children will learn later than other children as they are all individuals
and not some little wind up toys that are pre-programed to learn things at
certain ages. However, it seems that the stats are somewhat titled.
As a group do you (that would be the generic you) generally not play
learning games with your children when they are little? Do you consider
learning games for little guys to be a no no?
Would it be clearer if I defined my idea of learning games?
Lynda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Lynda" <lurine@s...> wrote:
Maybe it is because unschooler tend to be those with kids who would
naturally read late and hence don't fit in the system even more-so
than other kids?
Bridget
> As a group do you (that would be the generic you) generally not playconsider
> learning games with your children when they are little? Do you
> learning games for little guys to be a no no?Just theorizing, not stating it as fact.
>
> Would it be clearer if I defined my idea of learning games?
>
> Lynda
Maybe it is because unschooler tend to be those with kids who would
naturally read late and hence don't fit in the system even more-so
than other kids?
Bridget
Tia Leschke
>My guess is that a lot of those "late" readers would be pushed, either in
>
>So, I keep seeing these statements that unschoolers read later and I'm
>wondering why. I mean, I understand and it is to be expected that some
>children will learn later than other children as they are all individuals
>and not some little wind up toys that are pre-programed to learn things at
>certain ages. However, it seems that the stats are somewhat titled.
school or doing school-at-home, and that a lot of them would more or less
get reading at an earlier age than if they were the ones deciding when to
read. Of course a lot of those will likely become readers who choose not
to read unless made to.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
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Leslie
.....As a group do you (that would be the generic you) generally not play learning games with your children when they are little? Do you consider learning games for little guys to be a no no?.....Lynda
......Maybe it is because unschooler tend to be those with kids who would naturally read late and hence don't fit in the system even more-so than other kids?
Bridget......
Bridget and Lynda,
You'd be making a big mistake to make this assumption. My experience is that those who have the most success with unschooling as a way of life are are very motivated or have become self motivated as a result of their opportunity to learn , explore and discover, by their own direction and on their own timetable. These are children who are busy all the time. They can be very demanding because they require all kinds of materials and information to accommodate their curiosity and their unlimited projects. Their parents spend a GREAT deal of time playing games with them and facilitating their need to be constantly engaged in some activity or another until they begin to enjoy movies and TV <bg>.
The notion of unschooling implies that learning happens all the time and that one need not seek out opportunities and materials to accommodate learning but rather one provides and facilitates the exploration of life and the pursuit of making meaning by being available and participating in child led pursuits. My dd was reading at two years and is teaching herself piano when she's not watching TV or baking or skateboarding or beading or drawing or playing video games or reading..... I remember joking with one of the kids that we'd not teach the baby to talk so she wouldn't become to much of a bother<g>.
Just as one doesn't have to teach a child to walk and talk one does not have to teach them to use a toilet or to read. I was never happy with describing our lifestyle as home schooling because that implies doing school at home and that's not what we do. Unschooling as a label is a better fit but it also has some negative connotations which are easily misunderstood and I'm reticent to use the term with anyone other than those on these lists. We allow our curriculum to manifest itself in our daily routines, which are best described to those who use schools, as being on summer holiday all the time. Everyone understands that holidays have a natural rhythm that's determined by the weather, a visitor or an activity of your own choice along with daily routines including grooming and meals, shopping and housekeeping etc.... All of these activities provide opportunities to learn and grow. I don't believe that anything will interfere with natural learning and the growth of intelligence except K-12 curriculum, not even TV!
Leslie a home educating parent?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
......Maybe it is because unschooler tend to be those with kids who would naturally read late and hence don't fit in the system even more-so than other kids?
Bridget......
Bridget and Lynda,
You'd be making a big mistake to make this assumption. My experience is that those who have the most success with unschooling as a way of life are are very motivated or have become self motivated as a result of their opportunity to learn , explore and discover, by their own direction and on their own timetable. These are children who are busy all the time. They can be very demanding because they require all kinds of materials and information to accommodate their curiosity and their unlimited projects. Their parents spend a GREAT deal of time playing games with them and facilitating their need to be constantly engaged in some activity or another until they begin to enjoy movies and TV <bg>.
The notion of unschooling implies that learning happens all the time and that one need not seek out opportunities and materials to accommodate learning but rather one provides and facilitates the exploration of life and the pursuit of making meaning by being available and participating in child led pursuits. My dd was reading at two years and is teaching herself piano when she's not watching TV or baking or skateboarding or beading or drawing or playing video games or reading..... I remember joking with one of the kids that we'd not teach the baby to talk so she wouldn't become to much of a bother<g>.
Just as one doesn't have to teach a child to walk and talk one does not have to teach them to use a toilet or to read. I was never happy with describing our lifestyle as home schooling because that implies doing school at home and that's not what we do. Unschooling as a label is a better fit but it also has some negative connotations which are easily misunderstood and I'm reticent to use the term with anyone other than those on these lists. We allow our curriculum to manifest itself in our daily routines, which are best described to those who use schools, as being on summer holiday all the time. Everyone understands that holidays have a natural rhythm that's determined by the weather, a visitor or an activity of your own choice along with daily routines including grooming and meals, shopping and housekeeping etc.... All of these activities provide opportunities to learn and grow. I don't believe that anything will interfere with natural learning and the growth of intelligence except K-12 curriculum, not even TV!
Leslie a home educating parent?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:22:09 -0500 "Leslie" <leslie@...> writes:
phrase rubs me wrong, because of the implication that some games involve
learning and some don't... I would think all games involved learning, so
when I see it specified I think of those horridly educational games like
"Sight Word Bingo" and stuff...
I don't think I spent a great deal of time playing games with Cacie when
she was little... my patience with stuff like Candyland and Chutes and
Ladders is almost non-existent. I guess she started playing chess at two,
because we used to hang out at so many coffeehouses all the time and it
was always there, but she'd usually get tired mid-game and start having
the queens invite each other over for cake or something.I play lots of
games with her now... I didn't spend much time faciliatting, either... I
was almost always *there*, but mostly I wasn't doing much actively with
her, just hagning out and talking and all.
Dar
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> These are childrenDid we ever get a definition of "learning games"? I have to say that the
> who are busy all the time. They can be very demanding because they
> require all kinds of materials and information to accommodate their
> curiosity and their unlimited projects. Their parents spend a GREAT
> deal of time playing games with them and facilitating their need to
> be constantly engaged in some activity or another until they begin
> to enjoy movies and TV <bg>.
phrase rubs me wrong, because of the implication that some games involve
learning and some don't... I would think all games involved learning, so
when I see it specified I think of those horridly educational games like
"Sight Word Bingo" and stuff...
I don't think I spent a great deal of time playing games with Cacie when
she was little... my patience with stuff like Candyland and Chutes and
Ladders is almost non-existent. I guess she started playing chess at two,
because we used to hang out at so many coffeehouses all the time and it
was always there, but she'd usually get tired mid-game and start having
the queens invite each other over for cake or something.I play lots of
games with her now... I didn't spend much time faciliatting, either... I
was almost always *there*, but mostly I wasn't doing much actively with
her, just hagning out and talking and all.
Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
Cindy
Lynda wrote:
who need help or support on the issue of "later than our culture's norm"
readers. People like me who have a child who learned to read a few
months before his 5th birthday don't have a whole lot to offer someone
who is struggling over a 9 or 10 year who isn't reading. So I won't post
anything since I feel it could be inconsiderate to say "my kid learned
early." I occasionally see posts of "my kid started reading and s/he
is X" where X is within a comfortable margin of our culture's norm.
Very rarely does that turn into a discussion which lasts days - if any
responses are seen, it's usually "oh that's great!" type of responses.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>I'm not sure the stats are tilted. I think what we see here are people
> So, I keep seeing these statements that unschoolers read later and I'm
> wondering why. I mean, I understand and it is to be expected that some
> children will learn later than other children as they are all individuals
> and not some little wind up toys that are pre-programed to learn things at
> certain ages. However, it seems that the stats are somewhat titled.
>
who need help or support on the issue of "later than our culture's norm"
readers. People like me who have a child who learned to read a few
months before his 5th birthday don't have a whole lot to offer someone
who is struggling over a 9 or 10 year who isn't reading. So I won't post
anything since I feel it could be inconsiderate to say "my kid learned
early." I occasionally see posts of "my kid started reading and s/he
is X" where X is within a comfortable margin of our culture's norm.
Very rarely does that turn into a discussion which lasts days - if any
responses are seen, it's usually "oh that's great!" type of responses.
> Would it be clearer if I defined my idea of learning games?Do you think there are any games which aren't learning games? <g>
>
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Lynda
We are going off in different directions here. I made no assumptions, I
asked the question because so many folks are talking about their late
readers and I was wondering if it was because for some folks unschooling
means not doing things that we just kinda found to be "natural." I was
wondering if sometimes folks don't start out by wanting to be so hands off
that they go too far in the opposite direction and don't do any play that
might come under the heading of educational. That would not appear to be
the case for your children but I am still wondering if it was so for those
that have children that they are now worrying about because they are late
readers.
What has happened in this house is that back in the 60s we "acquired" five
nieces and nephews. I didn't send them to school because I figured their
life was traumatic enough, why subject them to still more trauma.
I bought a whiteboard/magnetic board on one side, felt board on the other
side for the baby (she was two) to play with when we went to the laundry
mat. It is old and decrepid now but all the kidlets have played with it. I
made felt animals and people and bought magnetic letters and fridge poetry
magnets and fraction burgers and tangegrams and all kinds of magnetic or
felt "stuff."
In the livingroom is a box with all of these "quiet" toys and these are the
ones they can "play" with when we watch television after dinner. They've
all been pulling them out and playing with them since they were old enough
to pull them across the livingroom floor.
This doesn't mean that this house isn't filled with "stuff" but simply that
the one room (and only the one room <g>) is semi-organized. Every single
room has at least one book case with some having as many as 3. IMHO, one of
the greatest inventions of the 20th century was the over the back of the
door hanging book shelves <g>
We also have lots of musical instruments and have sing alongs almost every
night. All of the musical instruments are in the diningroom (isn't that
what its for <g>) which is connected to our pathetically small kitchen. So
if hubby is cooking dinner, I play the piano and if I am cooking he plays
the guitar and fixing dinner has turned into a singalong hour. They've all
been singing since they could talk.
None of this was a forced issue, the use of all this was by their
initiation. And, by request, half the time I would end up on the floor with
them or they would crawl up on the couch with me. That is except during
Wheel of Fortune because they have all been playing along with that since it
came on tv.
We'd be singing the Jimminy Cricket song and they would want to know what
"e" was and so forth (from singing e-n-c-y-c-l-o-p-e-d-i-a) or Mickey Mouse
songs (what's an "m", etc.) and of course the ABC song.
At anyrate, with this type of "play" which they initiated, they all knew
their alphabet, numbers and could read when they were little guys, with the
latest being five. And it didn't have anything to do with trained poodle
responses, they just did it. And you would have no problem believing that
if you ever heard some of the ways they ended the ABC song <g>
Lynda
asked the question because so many folks are talking about their late
readers and I was wondering if it was because for some folks unschooling
means not doing things that we just kinda found to be "natural." I was
wondering if sometimes folks don't start out by wanting to be so hands off
that they go too far in the opposite direction and don't do any play that
might come under the heading of educational. That would not appear to be
the case for your children but I am still wondering if it was so for those
that have children that they are now worrying about because they are late
readers.
What has happened in this house is that back in the 60s we "acquired" five
nieces and nephews. I didn't send them to school because I figured their
life was traumatic enough, why subject them to still more trauma.
I bought a whiteboard/magnetic board on one side, felt board on the other
side for the baby (she was two) to play with when we went to the laundry
mat. It is old and decrepid now but all the kidlets have played with it. I
made felt animals and people and bought magnetic letters and fridge poetry
magnets and fraction burgers and tangegrams and all kinds of magnetic or
felt "stuff."
In the livingroom is a box with all of these "quiet" toys and these are the
ones they can "play" with when we watch television after dinner. They've
all been pulling them out and playing with them since they were old enough
to pull them across the livingroom floor.
This doesn't mean that this house isn't filled with "stuff" but simply that
the one room (and only the one room <g>) is semi-organized. Every single
room has at least one book case with some having as many as 3. IMHO, one of
the greatest inventions of the 20th century was the over the back of the
door hanging book shelves <g>
We also have lots of musical instruments and have sing alongs almost every
night. All of the musical instruments are in the diningroom (isn't that
what its for <g>) which is connected to our pathetically small kitchen. So
if hubby is cooking dinner, I play the piano and if I am cooking he plays
the guitar and fixing dinner has turned into a singalong hour. They've all
been singing since they could talk.
None of this was a forced issue, the use of all this was by their
initiation. And, by request, half the time I would end up on the floor with
them or they would crawl up on the couch with me. That is except during
Wheel of Fortune because they have all been playing along with that since it
came on tv.
We'd be singing the Jimminy Cricket song and they would want to know what
"e" was and so forth (from singing e-n-c-y-c-l-o-p-e-d-i-a) or Mickey Mouse
songs (what's an "m", etc.) and of course the ABC song.
At anyrate, with this type of "play" which they initiated, they all knew
their alphabet, numbers and could read when they were little guys, with the
latest being five. And it didn't have anything to do with trained poodle
responses, they just did it. And you would have no problem believing that
if you ever heard some of the ways they ended the ABC song <g>
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Leslie <leslie@...>
> .....As a group do you (that would be the generic you) generally not play
learning games with your children when they are little? Do you consider
learning games for little guys to be a no no?.....Lynda
>
> Bridget and Lynda,
> You'd be making a big mistake to make this assumption. My experience is
that those who have the most success with unschooling as a way of life are
are very motivated or have become self motivated as a result of their
opportunity to learn , explore and discover, by their own direction and on
their own timetable. These are children who are busy all the time. They can
be very demanding because they require all kinds of materials and
information to accommodate their curiosity and their unlimited projects.
Their parents spend a GREAT deal of time playing games with them and
facilitating their need to be constantly engaged in some activity or another
until they begin to enjoy movies and TV <bg>.
>
> The notion of unschooling implies that learning happens all the time and
that one need not seek out opportunities and materials to accommodate
learning but rather one provides and facilitates the exploration of life and
the pursuit of making meaning by being available and participating in child
led pursuits. My dd was reading at two years and is teaching herself piano
when she's not watching TV or baking or skateboarding or beading or drawing
or playing video games or reading..... I remember joking with one of the
kids that we'd not teach the baby to talk so she wouldn't become to much of
a bother<g>.
>
> Just as one doesn't have to teach a child to walk and talk one does not
have to teach them to use a toilet or to read. I was never happy with
describing our lifestyle as home schooling because that implies doing school
at home and that's not what we do. Unschooling as a label is a better fit
but it also has some negative connotations which are easily misunderstood
and I'm reticent to use the term with anyone other than those on these
lists. We allow our curriculum to manifest itself in our daily routines,
which are best described to those who use schools, as being on summer
holiday all the time. Everyone understands that holidays have a natural
rhythm that's determined by the weather, a visitor or an activity of your
own choice along with daily routines including grooming and meals, shopping
and housekeeping etc.... All of these activities provide opportunities to
learn and grow. I don't believe that anything will interfere with natural
learning and the growth of intelligence except K-12 curriculum, not even TV!
>
> Leslie a home educating parent?
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Leslie
.....I was wondering if sometimes folks don't start out by wanting to be so hands off that they go too far in the opposite direction and don't do any play that might come under the heading of educational......
What I'm saying is that all play is "educational"! Learning is happening all the time.
......That would not appear to be the case for your children but I am still wondering if it was so for those
that have children that they are now worrying about because they are late readers......
My middle son didn't begin to really read until he was 10yo. He was one of those kids that spoke with a kind of Boston accent and phonics didn't make any sense to him. By the time he really began to understand reading he had memorized many words but he wasn't reading by a school teachers definition until he was 10 and he still, at 12, is not at the expected reading level but he does and can read almost any word. Interestingly there are times when it comes easier and times when it still doesn't make sense to him. Diane's post about her own experience with "Dyslexia" was particularly interesting for us in this regard. Sometimes he can look at some print and find exactly what he's looking for in an instant and other times he still struggles. He still doesn't read novels but he'll pour over books about dogs or lizards for half hours at a time<G>. My 12yo son may be reading at the same skill level as my 7yo but his level of sophistication is of a 12yo not a 7yo.
.......I bought a whiteboard/magnetic board on one side, felt board on the other
side for the baby (she was two) to play with when we went to the laundry
mat. It is old and decrepit now but all the kidlets have played with it. I
made felt animals and people and bought magnetic letters and fridge poetry
magnets and fraction burgers and tangegrams and all kinds of magnetic or
felt "stuff."........
My kids love the fridge magnet poetry. Words and letters are everywhere and so are numbers. Chocolate bars divide into fractions and so do apples and oranges. I find the whole industry that's evolved to facilitate learning with contrived materials to be just that, another industry. When I had my first, 18 years ago, all of my acquaintances were into flash cards and the like, insisting that their children would have a jump on the others if they were reading by 2 etc... I've now read more than one study that shows that by the time one's in graduate school those who were labeled gifted and those who were labeled challenged can not be told apart. I believe that all of us are gifted and should be allowed to pursue our gifts without being obliged to spend copious amounts of time working on stuff others, the professionals, deem to be necessary. When the time is right a child will begin to use the toilet and the same is true with the alphabet. You can have them drawing letters and repeating letters each day for as long as it takes or you can wait until they naturally come to it and they'll learn the alphabet and how to use it in an afternoon because it has actually been part of their everyday life experience all along. I often wish I'd developed Hooked on Phonics, not to teach kids how to read but to become a multimillionaire feeding on completive and insecure parents ( just kidding about taking advantage of poor parents who are just trying to do the right thing. What good parent could forgive themselves for not taking the opportunity to "raise their Childs letter grade by one full mark in less than a year")<bg>
......In the livingroom is a box with all of these "quiet" toys and these are the
ones they can "play" with when we watch television after dinner. They've
all been pulling them out and playing with them since they were old enough
to pull them across the livingroom floor.....
I have stuff like Lego and sketch books near the TV always hoping for a little creative activity while they're in front of the tube. Dylan loves shows like Crocodile Hunter and other nature and science stuff but the Simpson's is their favorite. Bart has been a life saver for my guy, a cool and clever character who doesn't fit the mainstream either. I try to watch with them as much as I can stand and constantly critique the shows to make them aware of controversial attitudes and behavior. Dylan likes the show Titus and I think it's horrible so when I hear it come on I'll often join him to his dismay. They love Third Rock and the Simpson's and so do I so I'll join them for those too and point out the particularly clever parts which lead to great discussions about human nature and culture.
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What I'm saying is that all play is "educational"! Learning is happening all the time.
......That would not appear to be the case for your children but I am still wondering if it was so for those
that have children that they are now worrying about because they are late readers......
My middle son didn't begin to really read until he was 10yo. He was one of those kids that spoke with a kind of Boston accent and phonics didn't make any sense to him. By the time he really began to understand reading he had memorized many words but he wasn't reading by a school teachers definition until he was 10 and he still, at 12, is not at the expected reading level but he does and can read almost any word. Interestingly there are times when it comes easier and times when it still doesn't make sense to him. Diane's post about her own experience with "Dyslexia" was particularly interesting for us in this regard. Sometimes he can look at some print and find exactly what he's looking for in an instant and other times he still struggles. He still doesn't read novels but he'll pour over books about dogs or lizards for half hours at a time<G>. My 12yo son may be reading at the same skill level as my 7yo but his level of sophistication is of a 12yo not a 7yo.
.......I bought a whiteboard/magnetic board on one side, felt board on the other
side for the baby (she was two) to play with when we went to the laundry
mat. It is old and decrepit now but all the kidlets have played with it. I
made felt animals and people and bought magnetic letters and fridge poetry
magnets and fraction burgers and tangegrams and all kinds of magnetic or
felt "stuff."........
My kids love the fridge magnet poetry. Words and letters are everywhere and so are numbers. Chocolate bars divide into fractions and so do apples and oranges. I find the whole industry that's evolved to facilitate learning with contrived materials to be just that, another industry. When I had my first, 18 years ago, all of my acquaintances were into flash cards and the like, insisting that their children would have a jump on the others if they were reading by 2 etc... I've now read more than one study that shows that by the time one's in graduate school those who were labeled gifted and those who were labeled challenged can not be told apart. I believe that all of us are gifted and should be allowed to pursue our gifts without being obliged to spend copious amounts of time working on stuff others, the professionals, deem to be necessary. When the time is right a child will begin to use the toilet and the same is true with the alphabet. You can have them drawing letters and repeating letters each day for as long as it takes or you can wait until they naturally come to it and they'll learn the alphabet and how to use it in an afternoon because it has actually been part of their everyday life experience all along. I often wish I'd developed Hooked on Phonics, not to teach kids how to read but to become a multimillionaire feeding on completive and insecure parents ( just kidding about taking advantage of poor parents who are just trying to do the right thing. What good parent could forgive themselves for not taking the opportunity to "raise their Childs letter grade by one full mark in less than a year")<bg>
......In the livingroom is a box with all of these "quiet" toys and these are the
ones they can "play" with when we watch television after dinner. They've
all been pulling them out and playing with them since they were old enough
to pull them across the livingroom floor.....
I have stuff like Lego and sketch books near the TV always hoping for a little creative activity while they're in front of the tube. Dylan loves shows like Crocodile Hunter and other nature and science stuff but the Simpson's is their favorite. Bart has been a life saver for my guy, a cool and clever character who doesn't fit the mainstream either. I try to watch with them as much as I can stand and constantly critique the shows to make them aware of controversial attitudes and behavior. Dylan likes the show Titus and I think it's horrible so when I hear it come on I'll often join him to his dismay. They love Third Rock and the Simpson's and so do I so I'll join them for those too and point out the particularly clever parts which lead to great discussions about human nature and culture.
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lynda
No, I just think that some folks define some things more as play and some
things more as educational. We use to have a rabid unschooler on a list I
belonged to that would froth at the keyboard over anything that could
possibly be labeled "educational" or "learning" games, so was just asking in
case it was taken "wrong" here or incase folks assumed I meant buying
educational software, etc.
Lynda
things more as educational. We use to have a rabid unschooler on a list I
belonged to that would froth at the keyboard over anything that could
possibly be labeled "educational" or "learning" games, so was just asking in
case it was taken "wrong" here or incase folks assumed I meant buying
educational software, etc.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Cindy <crma@...>
>
> I'm not sure the stats are tilted. I think what we see here are people
> who need help or support on the issue of "later than our culture's norm"
> readers. People like me who have a child who learned to read a few
> months before his 5th birthday don't have a whole lot to offer someone
> who is struggling over a 9 or 10 year who isn't reading. So I won't post
> anything since I feel it could be inconsiderate to say "my kid learned
> early." I occasionally see posts of "my kid started reading and s/he
> is X" where X is within a comfortable margin of our culture's norm.
> Very rarely does that turn into a discussion which lasts days - if any
> responses are seen, it's usually "oh that's great!" type of responses.
>
> > Would it be clearer if I defined my idea of learning games?
> >
> Do you think there are any games which aren't learning games? <g>
> --
> Cindy Ferguson
> crma@...
kaydeecross
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Leslie" <leslie@j...> wrote:
flash cards and the like, insisting that their children would have a
jump on the others if they were reading by 2 etc... I've now read
more than one study that shows that by the time one's in graduate
school those who were labeled gifted and those who were labeled
challenged can not be told apart
me to find it, I kept the theory and threw out the details)
The gist of it was how later in life, the A and B students GENERALLY
end up working for the C and D students.
It only backs up my theory that creative people cannot learn from
linear thinking that is 'taught' in most public and private schools.
Cheers,
Kolleen
>When I had my first, 18 years ago, all of my acquaintances were into
>
flash cards and the like, insisting that their children would have a
jump on the others if they were reading by 2 etc... I've now read
more than one study that shows that by the time one's in graduate
school those who were labeled gifted and those who were labeled
challenged can not be told apart
> LeslieThis reminds me of a recent study that was done in Canada. (Don't ask
>
me to find it, I kept the theory and threw out the details)
The gist of it was how later in life, the A and B students GENERALLY
end up working for the C and D students.
It only backs up my theory that creative people cannot learn from
linear thinking that is 'taught' in most public and private schools.
Cheers,
Kolleen
Lynda
We use to have Legos but the kidlets decided that the tv hides an anti-Lego
monster that eats all the little pieces <g>
Now, none of us watch the Simpsons but we all love Titus. I find it
"interesting" how he manages to sometimes, shall we say, slap up along side
the head the complacent watcher with the digs he does about what people
sometimes prefer to pretend doesn't exist or has happened. We loved the one
he did about Tommy's dad being homosexual.
Lynda
monster that eats all the little pieces <g>
Now, none of us watch the Simpsons but we all love Titus. I find it
"interesting" how he manages to sometimes, shall we say, slap up along side
the head the complacent watcher with the digs he does about what people
sometimes prefer to pretend doesn't exist or has happened. We loved the one
he did about Tommy's dad being homosexual.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Leslie <leslie@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 10:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling/late readers, was OK here
is my question :0) How do they learn??
>
>
>
> .....I was wondering if sometimes folks don't start out by wanting to be
so hands off that they go too far in the opposite direction and don't do any
play that might come under the heading of educational......
>
> What I'm saying is that all play is "educational"! Learning is happening
all the time.
>
> ......That would not appear to be the case for your children but I am
still wondering if it was so for those
> that have children that they are now worrying about because they are
late readers......
> My middle son didn't begin to really read until he was 10yo. He was one
of those kids that spoke with a kind of Boston accent and phonics didn't
make any sense to him. By the time he really began to understand reading he
had memorized many words but he wasn't reading by a school teachers
definition until he was 10 and he still, at 12, is not at the expected
reading level but he does and can read almost any word. Interestingly there
are times when it comes easier and times when it still doesn't make sense to
him. Diane's post about her own experience with "Dyslexia" was particularly
interesting for us in this regard. Sometimes he can look at some print and
find exactly what he's looking for in an instant and other times he still
struggles. He still doesn't read novels but he'll pour over books about dogs
or lizards for half hours at a time<G>. My 12yo son may be reading at the
same skill level as my 7yo but his level of sophistication is of a 12yo not
a 7yo.
>
> .......I bought a whiteboard/magnetic board on one side, felt board on
the other
> side for the baby (she was two) to play with when we went to the laundry
> mat. It is old and decrepit now but all the kidlets have played with
it. I
> made felt animals and people and bought magnetic letters and fridge
poetry
> magnets and fraction burgers and tangegrams and all kinds of magnetic or
> felt "stuff."........
>
> My kids love the fridge magnet poetry. Words and letters are everywhere
and so are numbers. Chocolate bars divide into fractions and so do apples
and oranges. I find the whole industry that's evolved to facilitate learning
with contrived materials to be just that, another industry. When I had my
first, 18 years ago, all of my acquaintances were into flash cards and the
like, insisting that their children would have a jump on the others if they
were reading by 2 etc... I've now read more than one study that shows that
by the time one's in graduate school those who were labeled gifted and those
who were labeled challenged can not be told apart. I believe that all of us
are gifted and should be allowed to pursue our gifts without being obliged
to spend copious amounts of time working on stuff others, the professionals,
deem to be necessary. When the time is right a child will begin to use the
toilet and the same is true with the alphabet. You can have them drawing
letters and repeating letters each day for as long as it takes or you can
wait until they naturally come to it and they'll learn the alphabet and how
to use it in an afternoon because it has actually been part of their
everyday life experience all along. I often wish I'd developed Hooked on
Phonics, not to teach kids how to read but to become a multimillionaire
feeding on completive and insecure parents ( just kidding about taking
advantage of poor parents who are just trying to do the right thing. What
good parent could forgive themselves for not taking the opportunity to
"raise their Childs letter grade by one full mark in less than a year")<bg>
>
> ......In the livingroom is a box with all of these "quiet" toys and
these are the
> ones they can "play" with when we watch television after dinner.
They've
> all been pulling them out and playing with them since they were old
enough
> to pull them across the livingroom floor.....
>
> I have stuff like Lego and sketch books near the TV always hoping for a
little creative activity while they're in front of the tube. Dylan loves
shows like Crocodile Hunter and other nature and science stuff but the
Simpson's is their favorite. Bart has been a life saver for my guy, a cool
and clever character who doesn't fit the mainstream either. I try to watch
with them as much as I can stand and constantly critique the shows to make
them aware of controversial attitudes and behavior. Dylan likes the show
Titus and I think it's horrible so when I hear it come on I'll often join
him to his dismay. They love Third Rock and the Simpson's and so do I so
I'll join them for those too and point out the particularly clever parts
which lead to great discussions about human nature and culture.
>
> Leslie
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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>
>
Leslie
The first time I watched a Simpson's episode I didn't like it much, or Seinfeld either, so on your recommendation I'm going to give Titus another chance.<g>
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Donna B
I'm curious as well. To me, 'learning games,' when applied to games young children play, is any game. Me, out of my many, had one very early reader, and another pretty early reader, and yet another was a later reader. Who knows when #4 will read, but so far he spends a lot of time going through this one huge dinosaur book ;)
D
D
----- Original Message -----
From: freeform@...
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, December 08, 2001 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling/late readers, was OK here is my question :0) How do they learn??
On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 12:22:09 -0500 "Leslie" <leslie@...> writes:
> These are children
> who are busy all the time. They can be very demanding because they
> require all kinds of materials and information to accommodate their
> curiosity and their unlimited projects. Their parents spend a GREAT
> deal of time playing games with them and facilitating their need to
> be constantly engaged in some activity or another until they begin
> to enjoy movies and TV <bg>.
Did we ever get a definition of "learning games"? I have to say that the
phrase rubs me wrong, because of the implication that some games involve
learning and some don't... I would think all games involved learning, so
when I see it specified I think of those horridly educational games like
"Sight Word Bingo" and stuff...
I don't think I spent a great deal of time playing games with Cacie when
she was little... my patience with stuff like Candyland and Chutes and
Ladders is almost non-existent. I guess she started playing chess at two,
because we used to hang out at so many coffeehouses all the time and it
was always there, but she'd usually get tired mid-game and start having
the queens invite each other over for cake or something.I play lots of
games with her now... I didn't spend much time faciliatting, either... I
was almost always *there*, but mostly I wasn't doing much actively with
her, just hagning out and talking and all.
Dar
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