Re: Guilty schoolers
Ned
Helen, you wrote:
He didn't want to go. It was fairly unpleasant for all of us. I felt, and continue to feel, huge waves of guilt about it all.
I wish that we'd been able to find a better way to get through those years. I feel guilt about his unpleasant experience, about the loss of trust between us, about not being able to come up with a way of earning a hunk of money working at home.
When I read about your experience, what I think I recognized was the guilt of the working mother (which happens even with mothers who happily send their kids to school), compounded with the guilt of someone who feels she hasn't made the best decision about a huge chunk of her
children's lives.
* * * *
Is it something about people seeing us (the parents) as paragons of virtue and eyeballing us for signs of weakness and speaking to us from a kind of defensive, guilty, intense place because we're these paragons?
My immediate reaction was that you meant something about people deciding that their families aren't good enough for them to plunge into homeschooling. Or that they'll feel the kind of guilt that this lady seems to feel. Or just that they feel that deciding to homeschool is some
kind of irrevocable decision that they're not strong enough to make.
Wouldn't it be a happier society if people just felt easy enough in themselves (and had the means) to do what they feel is right, and weren't expending so much energy flogging themselves because they aren't doing "the best thing"? Or if we could just stop comparing ourselves to
other people.
another Joan
> The reaction from the poor lady was what was so interesting -I'm not sure that it was you who invoked the defensiveness. It seems to me that defensiveness comes from inside the person who's being defensive. If I feel confident about a decision I've made, you can say just about anything to me about it and I won't react defensively.
> she started detailing why she *had* to put her kids in school
> (because she needed to take a job), how much they were enjoying the
> alternative school, but *of course* it would never be as wonderful as
> homeschooling had been, etc., etc., etc. By the time she wound down
> and my friend changed the subject I was beginning to wonder if I'd
> unconsciously frowned at the word 'school' or something to invoke
> such a defensive reaction.
> Not the first time this has happened, of course. Just the mostWe chose to send our son to school for grade 5 and part of grade 6 so that I could work. He didn't yet feel confident about staying home by himself, we needed the money and I failed to come up with a way to earn it at home.
> recent. I'm sure many of you have run into this odd phenomenon of
> people reacting as though homeschooling were something they felt
> guilty about if they weren't doing it.
He didn't want to go. It was fairly unpleasant for all of us. I felt, and continue to feel, huge waves of guilt about it all.
I wish that we'd been able to find a better way to get through those years. I feel guilt about his unpleasant experience, about the loss of trust between us, about not being able to come up with a way of earning a hunk of money working at home.
When I read about your experience, what I think I recognized was the guilt of the working mother (which happens even with mothers who happily send their kids to school), compounded with the guilt of someone who feels she hasn't made the best decision about a huge chunk of her
children's lives.
> I hadn't given the whole thingI think that the lady's intensity had more to do with her own inner conflict than anything else.
> much thought until yesterday, but this lady's intensity...
* * * *
> ...has beenHelen, I'm interested in hearing some ways that you think it's a "bad" thing if people perceive homeschooling is "the best" ( I'll use it as a weak stand-in for wholesome, unimpeachable, or ...?....).
> making me wonder whether or not it's a good thing that homeschooling
> is perceived as so... I dunno... wholesome? Unimpeachable? (Where's
> that damn thesaurus when I need it? <g>)
Is it something about people seeing us (the parents) as paragons of virtue and eyeballing us for signs of weakness and speaking to us from a kind of defensive, guilty, intense place because we're these paragons?
My immediate reaction was that you meant something about people deciding that their families aren't good enough for them to plunge into homeschooling. Or that they'll feel the kind of guilt that this lady seems to feel. Or just that they feel that deciding to homeschool is some
kind of irrevocable decision that they're not strong enough to make.
Wouldn't it be a happier society if people just felt easy enough in themselves (and had the means) to do what they feel is right, and weren't expending so much energy flogging themselves because they aren't doing "the best thing"? Or if we could just stop comparing ourselves to
other people.
another Joan
Helen Hegener
I've been reading here with growing dismay tonight - well, I guess
it's early morning now. Where does the time go?
I, too, am growing tired of the continued bad vibes I'm getting from
certain people on this list. I've been watching the membership list
dwindle as people either unsub or set their subs to no mail in
increasing numbers. It saddens me to see what was once such a
friendly, helpful vibrant list become this sad shell of its former
self. And I'm not amused by the increasing frequency of foul language
in posts. No, we don't monitor or police this list. We're not going
to unsub you for expressing yourself in flaming fullcolor. We rather
expect that you'd behave less like an angst-filled teenager - no,
waitaminute, that's not fair to teenagers... sorry. Anyway, you get
my drift. I'm sure we can all click on the latest junk email if we
want titilating language.
So what do we do with this problem child of a list? I received an
emailing offlist tonight from a friend expressing outrage that this
list's behavior is reflecting badly on HEM's reputation (it is one of
ours, after all). I could only shake my head and agree with her
analysis, but how do we keep this list free and open and unmonitored
if people are just going to continue to behave like they've been
doing for - gee, how long has it been now? Too long in my estimation.
I keep wondering if we passed some kind of invisible balance point
with this list some time ago; let things slide too far in one
direction and now there's no way to find our way back to what we once
had. When I started this list I was so sure it didn't need monitors
and listmamas because surely unschoolers were "different," they could
find and maintain balance and kindness and a higher purpose, couldn't
they?
Quite a few people have asked for a return to peaceful discourse,
most of them much more eloquently than I feel capable of. To be
honest, I'm still feeling pretty burned out by everything that's
happened this fall - it's been a rough one for our family, as well as
for our nation. That just makes it so much harder to come here - to
what was for so long a friendly port in life's storms - and find such
animosity and orneryness every day.
So maybe this great unmonitored experiment of a list has failed,
after all. What do you think?
Helen
it's early morning now. Where does the time go?
I, too, am growing tired of the continued bad vibes I'm getting from
certain people on this list. I've been watching the membership list
dwindle as people either unsub or set their subs to no mail in
increasing numbers. It saddens me to see what was once such a
friendly, helpful vibrant list become this sad shell of its former
self. And I'm not amused by the increasing frequency of foul language
in posts. No, we don't monitor or police this list. We're not going
to unsub you for expressing yourself in flaming fullcolor. We rather
expect that you'd behave less like an angst-filled teenager - no,
waitaminute, that's not fair to teenagers... sorry. Anyway, you get
my drift. I'm sure we can all click on the latest junk email if we
want titilating language.
So what do we do with this problem child of a list? I received an
emailing offlist tonight from a friend expressing outrage that this
list's behavior is reflecting badly on HEM's reputation (it is one of
ours, after all). I could only shake my head and agree with her
analysis, but how do we keep this list free and open and unmonitored
if people are just going to continue to behave like they've been
doing for - gee, how long has it been now? Too long in my estimation.
I keep wondering if we passed some kind of invisible balance point
with this list some time ago; let things slide too far in one
direction and now there's no way to find our way back to what we once
had. When I started this list I was so sure it didn't need monitors
and listmamas because surely unschoolers were "different," they could
find and maintain balance and kindness and a higher purpose, couldn't
they?
Quite a few people have asked for a return to peaceful discourse,
most of them much more eloquently than I feel capable of. To be
honest, I'm still feeling pretty burned out by everything that's
happened this fall - it's been a rough one for our family, as well as
for our nation. That just makes it so much harder to come here - to
what was for so long a friendly port in life's storms - and find such
animosity and orneryness every day.
So maybe this great unmonitored experiment of a list has failed,
after all. What do you think?
Helen
Fetteroll
I think it's rather ironic that this nastiness should reach this point in
the midst of threads on labelling and name calling and whether these are
helpful or hurtful.
One camp says it's helpful to children to have their negative behavior
pointed out to them so they can see it and correct it. And yet when others
see what they consider faults and call those spades spades, the technique
doesn't seem to be received with gratefulness and relief at having a trait
they hadn't noticed identified for them. Easy enough to say it's not the
same, but apparently when an outsider sees something as a problem, it might
just be the outsider who has the problem.
One camp says it's hurtful to use words with negative connotations, even
when *thinking* about a child's behavior. And yet when uncomfortable
behavior arises, it seems the handiest tool to be grabbed is labeling and
name calling. Perhaps the Golden Rule is more applicable in this situation
than "That's the way she behaves so that's the way I'm going to treat her"?
I think perhaps part of the problem is there's some resentment towards those
some feel are responsible for Sandra's leaving. They liked the list the way
it was and resent that it has changed. (I'm not above that myself ;-) But
Sandra has a perfectly fine list going. (And it's probably going well
because the list is composed of people who "get" Sandra's style of
communication. If you don't it's best not to join since you'd just be
torturing yourself!) As Helen said, perhaps this was a good thing that
forced Sandra to do what she should have done long ago.
Joyce
the midst of threads on labelling and name calling and whether these are
helpful or hurtful.
One camp says it's helpful to children to have their negative behavior
pointed out to them so they can see it and correct it. And yet when others
see what they consider faults and call those spades spades, the technique
doesn't seem to be received with gratefulness and relief at having a trait
they hadn't noticed identified for them. Easy enough to say it's not the
same, but apparently when an outsider sees something as a problem, it might
just be the outsider who has the problem.
One camp says it's hurtful to use words with negative connotations, even
when *thinking* about a child's behavior. And yet when uncomfortable
behavior arises, it seems the handiest tool to be grabbed is labeling and
name calling. Perhaps the Golden Rule is more applicable in this situation
than "That's the way she behaves so that's the way I'm going to treat her"?
I think perhaps part of the problem is there's some resentment towards those
some feel are responsible for Sandra's leaving. They liked the list the way
it was and resent that it has changed. (I'm not above that myself ;-) But
Sandra has a perfectly fine list going. (And it's probably going well
because the list is composed of people who "get" Sandra's style of
communication. If you don't it's best not to join since you'd just be
torturing yourself!) As Helen said, perhaps this was a good thing that
forced Sandra to do what she should have done long ago.
Joyce
[email protected]
In a message dated 12/6/2001 3:46:53 AM Eastern Standard Time,
HEM-Editor@... writes:
Thanks for your thoughts. I don't think monderating would be a bad idea. I
belong to several lists, some of them very spiritual in nature, where you
would think they don't need moderating as well. However, there are people who
will join the list that will disrupt it no matter what the intent of the
list. Personally, I post the same way whether a list is moderated or not. . .
maybe I moderate myself mostly. So my vote would be to get the list back to
some kind of peacefulness to moderate it.
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
HEM-Editor@... writes:
> So maybe this great unmonitored experiment of a list has failed,Helen,
> after all. What do you think?
>
> Helen
>
Thanks for your thoughts. I don't think monderating would be a bad idea. I
belong to several lists, some of them very spiritual in nature, where you
would think they don't need moderating as well. However, there are people who
will join the list that will disrupt it no matter what the intent of the
list. Personally, I post the same way whether a list is moderated or not. . .
maybe I moderate myself mostly. So my vote would be to get the list back to
some kind of peacefulness to moderate it.
lovemary
I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sarah Carothers
Dear Helen,
I agree with most of your thoughts on this problem.
IMHO, I think as list owner, you have every right to ban individuals from the list. I know you don't want to be police chief and I understand that's the whole gist of this list... no monitoring.
Let's say you own a bookstore and you sell all kinds of books (not that you *like* all these kinds of books.. just that they are available to everybody interested). You have tons of repeat customers... for years. You job is to stock the store, etc. but you don't have to police the patrons... they're folks who have come to your store with a purpose...to get information or (buy books). All of a sudden, a new person enters the store and starts going up to each patron and criticizing what they're reading. Some of them ignore this person. Others walk away in a huff. One of them goes next door and starts her *own* book store and takes some of the original patrons with her. But there you are, still owner of the bookstore and watching it go down in a pile of dust.. fast. This store has meant a lot to you in the past and you recoginize it's also meant a lot to other people in town. Do you just sit back behind the register and let this go on or do you ask the person(s) causing the rukus to leave? IMHO, you have a job to do *if* you still care about your 'store'.....
or are you looking for a reason to shut it down? (I'm hoping not!)
Sarah
I agree with most of your thoughts on this problem.
IMHO, I think as list owner, you have every right to ban individuals from the list. I know you don't want to be police chief and I understand that's the whole gist of this list... no monitoring.
Let's say you own a bookstore and you sell all kinds of books (not that you *like* all these kinds of books.. just that they are available to everybody interested). You have tons of repeat customers... for years. You job is to stock the store, etc. but you don't have to police the patrons... they're folks who have come to your store with a purpose...to get information or (buy books). All of a sudden, a new person enters the store and starts going up to each patron and criticizing what they're reading. Some of them ignore this person. Others walk away in a huff. One of them goes next door and starts her *own* book store and takes some of the original patrons with her. But there you are, still owner of the bookstore and watching it go down in a pile of dust.. fast. This store has meant a lot to you in the past and you recoginize it's also meant a lot to other people in town. Do you just sit back behind the register and let this go on or do you ask the person(s) causing the rukus to leave? IMHO, you have a job to do *if* you still care about your 'store'.....
or are you looking for a reason to shut it down? (I'm hoping not!)
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: Helen Hegener
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 3:52 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Hey, list...
I've been reading here with growing dismay tonight - well, I guess
it's early morning now. Where does the time go?
I, too, am growing tired of the continued bad vibes I'm getting from
certain people on this list. I've been watching the membership list
dwindle as people either unsub or set their subs to no mail in
increasing numbers. It saddens me to see what was once such a
friendly, helpful vibrant list become this sad shell of its former
self. And I'm not amused by the increasing frequency of foul language
in posts. No, we don't monitor or police this list. We're not going
to unsub you for expressing yourself in flaming fullcolor. We rather
expect that you'd behave less like an angst-filled teenager - no,
waitaminute, that's not fair to teenagers... sorry. Anyway, you get
my drift. I'm sure we can all click on the latest junk email if we
want titilating language.
So what do we do with this problem child of a list? I received an
emailing offlist tonight from a friend expressing outrage that this
list's behavior is reflecting badly on HEM's reputation (it is one of
ours, after all). I could only shake my head and agree with her
analysis, but how do we keep this list free and open and unmonitored
if people are just going to continue to behave like they've been
doing for - gee, how long has it been now? Too long in my estimation.
I keep wondering if we passed some kind of invisible balance point
with this list some time ago; let things slide too far in one
direction and now there's no way to find our way back to what we once
had. When I started this list I was so sure it didn't need monitors
and listmamas because surely unschoolers were "different," they could
find and maintain balance and kindness and a higher purpose, couldn't
they?
Quite a few people have asked for a return to peaceful discourse,
most of them much more eloquently than I feel capable of. To be
honest, I'm still feeling pretty burned out by everything that's
happened this fall - it's been a rough one for our family, as well as
for our nation. That just makes it so much harder to come here - to
what was for so long a friendly port in life's storms - and find such
animosity and orneryness every day.
So maybe this great unmonitored experiment of a list has failed,
after all. What do you think?
Helen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rumpleteasermom
Joyce,
I see all of your points and agree with them for the most part. I
know that I often come across as condescending and I know why and how
that happens. A lot of it has to do with my writing style. And at
this point, here, some of it has to do with misperceptions of me. I
was called everything from autoritative to a bad mother to a social
vandal here on this list. There are those here who have yet to move
past that and it shows in their writing. I've reached a point where
I don't care what you (plural) say about me. I join in on threads
when I have something to say. And I will continue to ask questions.
Bear in mind that this particular flame up happened because I asked
two specific questions . . .
1. I asked Julie if she really wanted to get personal.
2. I asked how her comments were not personal (as I was told by Dar
in answer to question #1 yet when I made nearly the same comment
about someone else it was personal bashing. I have yet to get an
answer to that. And it has absolutely nothing to do with Sandra at
all. The question never did.
Bridget
ps - FWIW - I never said Julie was incorrect in her assessment of
me. I merely asked why it was okay for her to say it when similar
comments were not okay in the past.
I see all of your points and agree with them for the most part. I
know that I often come across as condescending and I know why and how
that happens. A lot of it has to do with my writing style. And at
this point, here, some of it has to do with misperceptions of me. I
was called everything from autoritative to a bad mother to a social
vandal here on this list. There are those here who have yet to move
past that and it shows in their writing. I've reached a point where
I don't care what you (plural) say about me. I join in on threads
when I have something to say. And I will continue to ask questions.
Bear in mind that this particular flame up happened because I asked
two specific questions . . .
1. I asked Julie if she really wanted to get personal.
2. I asked how her comments were not personal (as I was told by Dar
in answer to question #1 yet when I made nearly the same comment
about someone else it was personal bashing. I have yet to get an
answer to that. And it has absolutely nothing to do with Sandra at
all. The question never did.
Bridget
ps - FWIW - I never said Julie was incorrect in her assessment of
me. I merely asked why it was okay for her to say it when similar
comments were not okay in the past.
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> I think it's rather ironic that this nastiness should reach this
point in
> the midst of threads on labelling and name calling and whether
these are
> helpful or hurtful.
>
> One camp says it's helpful to children to have their negative
behavior
> pointed out to them so they can see it and correct it. And yet when
others
> see what they consider faults and call those spades spades, the
technique
> doesn't seem to be received with gratefulness and relief at having
a trait
> they hadn't noticed identified for them. Easy enough to say it's
not the
> same, but apparently when an outsider sees something as a problem,
it might
> just be the outsider who has the problem.
>
> One camp says it's hurtful to use words with negative connotations,
even
> when *thinking* about a child's behavior. And yet when uncomfortable
> behavior arises, it seems the handiest tool to be grabbed is
labeling and
> name calling. Perhaps the Golden Rule is more applicable in this
situation
> than "That's the way she behaves so that's the way I'm going to
treat her"?
>
> I think perhaps part of the problem is there's some resentment
towards those
> some feel are responsible for Sandra's leaving. They liked the list
the way
> it was and resent that it has changed. (I'm not above that myself ;-
) But
> Sandra has a perfectly fine list going. (And it's probably going
well
> because the list is composed of people who "get" Sandra's style of
> communication. If you don't it's best not to join since you'd just
be
> torturing yourself!) As Helen said, perhaps this was a good thing
that
> forced Sandra to do what she should have done long ago.
>
> Joyce
Karin
Sarah - I just had to say to you, great analogy of what is going on here! It kind of reminded me of the movie "You've Got Mail"!
(okay, just a little similarity)
But anyway, I'm sad to see people leaving too, I agree it's bad for business. Maybe the owner will have to change the store's policies with the changing times. How about 1, 2, 3 strikes you're out! ;-)
Karin
(okay, just a little similarity)
But anyway, I'm sad to see people leaving too, I agree it's bad for business. Maybe the owner will have to change the store's policies with the changing times. How about 1, 2, 3 strikes you're out! ;-)
Karin
----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Carothers
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 6:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Hey, list...
Dear Helen,
I agree with most of your thoughts on this problem.
IMHO, I think as list owner, you have every right to ban individuals from the list. I know you don't want to be police chief and I understand that's the whole gist of this list... no monitoring.
Let's say you own a bookstore and you sell all kinds of books (not that you *like* all these kinds of books.. just that they are available to everybody interested). You have tons of repeat customers... for years. You job is to stock the store, etc. but you don't have to police the patrons... they're folks who have come to your store with a purpose...to get information or (buy books). All of a sudden, a new person enters the store and starts going up to each patron and criticizing what they're reading. Some of them ignore this person. Others walk away in a huff. One of them goes next door and starts her *own* book store and takes some of the original patrons with her. But there you are, still owner of the bookstore and watching it go down in a pile of dust.. fast. This store has meant a lot to you in the past and you recoginize it's also meant a lot to other people in town. Do you just sit back behind the register and let this go on or do you ask the person(s) causing the rukus to leave? IMHO, you have a job to do *if* you still care about your 'store'.....
or are you looking for a reason to shut it down? (I'm hoping not!)
Sarah
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 12/6/01 10:03 AM, rumpleteasermom at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:
of us asked before we post if we are trying to be helpful or trying to be
right.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Bear in mind that this particular flame up happened because I askedAnd at this juncture until the wounds heal perhaps it would be good if all
> two specific questions . . .
of us asked before we post if we are trying to be helpful or trying to be
right.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cindy
Helen Hegener wrote:
stay since the nastiness has just found new targets. And since
I was a target of an attack in Sept. I haven't posted much. My
voice here has been effectively silenced since I don't care to
subject myself to that again!
And yes, IMO this does reflect badly on HEM. My subscription is up
for renewal and my feelings are that I'm not going to. The bullies
have the forum here and HEM hasn't done anything to stop that from
happening. So my question to myself is : do I want to receive a
magazine from people who allow bullies to take over? I won't
make a final decision until Jan. - but since you (Helen) mentioned
that I thought I'd give you this feedback. I wasn't going to say
anything since I respect you and Mark and what you've done for
homeschooling. Since you brought it up, I thought I'd let you
know how I am feeling/thinking about it.
I think unschoolers are just like any other subset of humans. This
is the second unschooling list I've been on which had a no monitoring
policy which has had problems. That list has never recovered from
its implosion.
One more thought : there are lots of Sandra-free unschooling lists out
there. Why did this have to become one of them? If people came here
and didn't like what Sandra said or how she said, why didn't they leave
and find another place?
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>I left the list for a while and came back. I'm not sure I will
> So maybe this great unmonitored experiment of a list has failed,
> after all. What do you think?
>
stay since the nastiness has just found new targets. And since
I was a target of an attack in Sept. I haven't posted much. My
voice here has been effectively silenced since I don't care to
subject myself to that again!
And yes, IMO this does reflect badly on HEM. My subscription is up
for renewal and my feelings are that I'm not going to. The bullies
have the forum here and HEM hasn't done anything to stop that from
happening. So my question to myself is : do I want to receive a
magazine from people who allow bullies to take over? I won't
make a final decision until Jan. - but since you (Helen) mentioned
that I thought I'd give you this feedback. I wasn't going to say
anything since I respect you and Mark and what you've done for
homeschooling. Since you brought it up, I thought I'd let you
know how I am feeling/thinking about it.
I think unschoolers are just like any other subset of humans. This
is the second unschooling list I've been on which had a no monitoring
policy which has had problems. That list has never recovered from
its implosion.
One more thought : there are lots of Sandra-free unschooling lists out
there. Why did this have to become one of them? If people came here
and didn't like what Sandra said or how she said, why didn't they leave
and find another place?
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Sarah Carothers
Dear Cindy,
I'm not clear on what it is you would like Helen to do... Could you spell it out for me? It *seems* like you're saying that without Sandra here, the list is not worth maintaining. And what do you mean about not renewing your subscription to HEM.... waiting till January? Are you waiting to see if Helen *does* something... like shut the list down or ???? It sounds like you're trying to make her an offer she can't refuse and I'm sure I must be misunderstanding you.
Please clarify for me.
Thanks,
Sarah
I'm not clear on what it is you would like Helen to do... Could you spell it out for me? It *seems* like you're saying that without Sandra here, the list is not worth maintaining. And what do you mean about not renewing your subscription to HEM.... waiting till January? Are you waiting to see if Helen *does* something... like shut the list down or ???? It sounds like you're trying to make her an offer she can't refuse and I'm sure I must be misunderstanding you.
Please clarify for me.
Thanks,
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: Cindy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 1:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Hey, list...
Helen Hegener wrote:
>
> So maybe this great unmonitored experiment of a list has failed,
> after all. What do you think?
>
I left the list for a while and came back. I'm not sure I will
stay since the nastiness has just found new targets. And since
I was a target of an attack in Sept. I haven't posted much. My
voice here has been effectively silenced since I don't care to
subject myself to that again!
And yes, IMO this does reflect badly on HEM. My subscription is up
for renewal and my feelings are that I'm not going to. The bullies
have the forum here and HEM hasn't done anything to stop that from
happening. So my question to myself is : do I want to receive a
magazine from people who allow bullies to take over? I won't
make a final decision until Jan. - but since you (Helen) mentioned
that I thought I'd give you this feedback. I wasn't going to say
anything since I respect you and Mark and what you've done for
homeschooling. Since you brought it up, I thought I'd let you
know how I am feeling/thinking about it.
I think unschoolers are just like any other subset of humans. This
is the second unschooling list I've been on which had a no monitoring
policy which has had problems. That list has never recovered from
its implosion.
One more thought : there are lots of Sandra-free unschooling lists out
there. Why did this have to become one of them? If people came here
and didn't like what Sandra said or how she said, why didn't they leave
and find another place?
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
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groundhoggirl
Hi Helen,
No, I don't think the behavior of certain people on this list should be
considered a reflection of HEM. I don't consider it to be. People's
posts should be a reflection of those particular people. I believe
monitoring the list would be contrary to the philosophy of unschooling.
That's my personal opinion. I don't know if I'm right or if I'm wrong.
I'm a newbie and I think this should be your decision. This is my input.
I would also like to say that I hope I have not offended anyone on this
list. I usually just offer my opinions. If I have, it was
unintentional and I was just trying to help or offer my opinion. Or,
perhaps I was just trying to be funny and it backfired. Please accept
my apologies if I have hurt anyone's feelings. I am learning a lot from
this list and I hope it continues (hopefully, unmonitered). I wish
everyone would just remember to be kind and stay away from foul
language. I, personally, find it offensive.
Mimi
No, I don't think the behavior of certain people on this list should be
considered a reflection of HEM. I don't consider it to be. People's
posts should be a reflection of those particular people. I believe
monitoring the list would be contrary to the philosophy of unschooling.
That's my personal opinion. I don't know if I'm right or if I'm wrong.
I'm a newbie and I think this should be your decision. This is my input.
I would also like to say that I hope I have not offended anyone on this
list. I usually just offer my opinions. If I have, it was
unintentional and I was just trying to help or offer my opinion. Or,
perhaps I was just trying to be funny and it backfired. Please accept
my apologies if I have hurt anyone's feelings. I am learning a lot from
this list and I hope it continues (hopefully, unmonitered). I wish
everyone would just remember to be kind and stay away from foul
language. I, personally, find it offensive.
Mimi
On Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 02:52 AM, Helen Hegener wrote:
> I've been reading here with growing dismay tonight - well, I guess
> it's early morning now. Where does the time go?
>
> I, too, am growing tired of the continued bad vibes I'm getting from
> certain people on this list. I've been watching the membership list
> dwindle as people either unsub or set their subs to no mail in
> increasing numbers. It saddens me to see what was once such a
> friendly, helpful vibrant list become this sad shell of its former
> self. And I'm not amused by the increasing frequency of foul language
> in posts. No, we don't monitor or police this list. We're not going
> to unsub you for expressing yourself in flaming fullcolor. We rather
> expect that you'd behave less like an angst-filled teenager - no,
> waitaminute, that's not fair to teenagers... sorry. Anyway, you get
> my drift. I'm sure we can all click on the latest junk email if we
> want titilating language.
>
> So what do we do with this problem child of a list? I received an
> emailing offlist tonight from a friend expressing outrage that this
> list's behavior is reflecting badly on HEM's reputation (it is one of
> ours, after all). I could only shake my head and agree with her
> analysis, but how do we keep this list free and open and unmonitored
> if people are just going to continue to behave like they've been
> doing for - gee, how long has it been now? Too long in my estimation.
>
> I keep wondering if we passed some kind of invisible balance point
> with this list some time ago; let things slide too far in one
> direction and now there's no way to find our way back to what we once
> had. When I started this list I was so sure it didn't need monitors
> and listmamas because surely unschoolers were "different," they could
> find and maintain balance and kindness and a higher purpose, couldn't
> they?
>
> Quite a few people have asked for a return to peaceful discourse,
> most of them much more eloquently than I feel capable of. To be
> honest, I'm still feeling pretty burned out by everything that's
> happened this fall - it's been a rough one for our family, as well as
> for our nation. That just makes it so much harder to come here - to
> what was for so long a friendly port in life's storms - and find such
> animosity and orneryness every day.
>
> So maybe this great unmonitored experiment of a list has failed,
> after all. What do you think?
>
> Helen
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Tia Leschke
>That's one thing that I've been wondering. One person is *still* bringing
>
>One more thought : there are lots of Sandra-free unschooling lists out
>there. Why did this have to become one of them? If people came here
>and didn't like what Sandra said or how she said, why didn't they leave
>and find another place?
up perceived insults, even though Sandra has been gone for how long? And
some of those exchanges date back to last summer. I try to ignore it, and
manage to ignore probably 90% of the nastiness, but it's tiresome. And I
do get caught up in it at times.
I've gotten some of the best support ever here, and I hate to give it
up. I like Sandra's new list a lot, but it's got a different flavour. I
really like the flavour here when people keep to the issues and keep the
personality and nastiness out of it.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
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rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
really . . . I may have mentioned her name but the question itself
had nothing to do with her directly or with anything she said. Once
again for those who haven't gotten it; NOT EVERYTHING I SAY IS ABOUT
SANDRA.
Oh and in case your counting, no the question has not been answered.
Bridget
>bringing
> That's one thing that I've been wondering. One person is *still*
> up perceived insults, even though Sandra has been gone for howlong? And
> some of those exchanges date back to last summer. I try to ignoreit, and
> manage to ignore probably 90% of the nastiness, but it's tiresome.And I
> do get caught up in it at times.Can ANYONE see that my latest comments were not about Sandra? I mean
really . . . I may have mentioned her name but the question itself
had nothing to do with her directly or with anything she said. Once
again for those who haven't gotten it; NOT EVERYTHING I SAY IS ABOUT
SANDRA.
Oh and in case your counting, no the question has not been answered.
Bridget
Helen Hegener
Okay, I've read the 40 or so messages posted to this list, plus about
half that many sent privately offlist. My sincere thanks to everyone
who took the time to share their thoughts about this prickly
situation with me. It has helped tremendously, even if the conclusion
I'm coming to isn't one I'd have chosen on my own.
I have to resignedly agree with those who feel this list's growing
bad reputation is reflecting on Home Education Magazine. I know there
are many on this list who probably don't even know what that is, and
that's fine, but it is my overriding concern in deciding to take a
hand in what's happening here.
I'm going to make this a moderated list, and I deeply appreciate the
offers from those who've volunteered to help in that department.
Interestingly, we've been having something of a parallel discussion
on another list I belong to, which is directed at members of the
independent press, and they decided just this morning to invoke this
model:
...monitor the list closely and *privately* remind, reprimand, and
eventually unsubscribe members who violate the established rules
(generally effective if done consistently, fairly, and the rest of
the list members let the moderators do their job instead of jumping
immediately on someone who missteps).
I like the way that is worded, even if I don't like the idea of
list-police. But just as society in general needs police to keep the
hooligans from making life miserable for everyone, I guess lists with
as diverse a populace as this one enjoys will benefit from someone
keeping the problems in check.
So how do we come up with acceptable rules of behavior? I've seen
some good ones on other lists... FWIW, the independent press list I'm
on came up with waaaay too many rules for me - I can live with them
under my other hat as a publisher, but not as an unschooling mom. I
think the simpler we keep things the simpler it will be for people to
remember and comply with them.
So I'm open to suggestions in that department.
And now I'll reply to a few posts individually.
Thanks again, everyone!
Helen
half that many sent privately offlist. My sincere thanks to everyone
who took the time to share their thoughts about this prickly
situation with me. It has helped tremendously, even if the conclusion
I'm coming to isn't one I'd have chosen on my own.
I have to resignedly agree with those who feel this list's growing
bad reputation is reflecting on Home Education Magazine. I know there
are many on this list who probably don't even know what that is, and
that's fine, but it is my overriding concern in deciding to take a
hand in what's happening here.
I'm going to make this a moderated list, and I deeply appreciate the
offers from those who've volunteered to help in that department.
Interestingly, we've been having something of a parallel discussion
on another list I belong to, which is directed at members of the
independent press, and they decided just this morning to invoke this
model:
...monitor the list closely and *privately* remind, reprimand, and
eventually unsubscribe members who violate the established rules
(generally effective if done consistently, fairly, and the rest of
the list members let the moderators do their job instead of jumping
immediately on someone who missteps).
I like the way that is worded, even if I don't like the idea of
list-police. But just as society in general needs police to keep the
hooligans from making life miserable for everyone, I guess lists with
as diverse a populace as this one enjoys will benefit from someone
keeping the problems in check.
So how do we come up with acceptable rules of behavior? I've seen
some good ones on other lists... FWIW, the independent press list I'm
on came up with waaaay too many rules for me - I can live with them
under my other hat as a publisher, but not as an unschooling mom. I
think the simpler we keep things the simpler it will be for people to
remember and comply with them.
So I'm open to suggestions in that department.
And now I'll reply to a few posts individually.
Thanks again, everyone!
Helen
Cindy
Sarah Carothers wrote:
I want Helen to do what Helen thinks she needs to do. I merely wanted to
let her know that what has happened here did/does, in my eyes, reflect
on the magazine.
I don't have any answers for this. It isn't about Sandra, it's about
the nastiness. Sandra is gone and I doubt if she will return but the
nastiness is still here. My decision to remain or leave will be based
on whether or not the nastiness leaves.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>I'm waiting until Jan. because that is when my subscription expires.
> Dear Cindy,
> I'm not clear on what it is you would like Helen to do... Could you spell it out for me? It *seems* like you're saying that without Sandra here, the list is not worth maintaining. And what do you mean about not renewing your subscription to HEM.... waiting till January? Are you waiting to see if Helen *does* something... like shut the list down or ???? It sounds like you're trying to make her an offer she can't refuse and I'm sure I must be misunderstanding you.
> Please clarify for me.
> Thanks,
> Sarah
>
I want Helen to do what Helen thinks she needs to do. I merely wanted to
let her know that what has happened here did/does, in my eyes, reflect
on the magazine.
I don't have any answers for this. It isn't about Sandra, it's about
the nastiness. Sandra is gone and I doubt if she will return but the
nastiness is still here. My decision to remain or leave will be based
on whether or not the nastiness leaves.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Diane
> So how do we come up with acceptable rules of behavior? I've seenMore on the order of a Constitution than of legislation. That is to say,
> some good ones on other lists... FWIW, the independent press list I'm
> on came up with waaaay too many rules for me - I can live with them
> under my other hat as a publisher, but not as an unschooling mom. I
> think the simpler we keep things the simpler it will be for people to
> remember and comply with them.
broad rather than detailed. "Speak respectfully" works better than "don't
call anyone a badword, don't point virtual fingers at listmembers, don't...."
ad nauseum. In general, I also prefer to see positive rules (what we *do*
want to see) rather than prohibitions. Nothing wrong with modifying a list
you found somewhere else that looked pretty good.
Good luck! I'm glad you came to this, but better you than me!
:-) Diane
Helen Hegener
At 8:10 AM -0500 12/6/01, Sarah Carothers wrote:
been doing this. We run almost two dozen email lists, three
newsletters, and three websites in addition to publishing HEM. This
list was sort of my guinea pig, my ambitious attempt to give human
nature free rein and see where we ended up. In retrospect it was
probably a grave disservice to those good people who came here
looking for meaningful conversation and helpful advice, and I think I
own an apology to those folks who tried for so long to stick with it
through all the bad times, hoping for more good times. Sadly, many of
them are gone now and won't even read this, but perhaps if we build
this list back into what it can be we'll entice a few of them back
again? That seems like the least we - I - can do now.
to do. We're in this for the long haul, come what may.
Helen
>IMHO, I think as list owner, you have every right to ban individualsI know. I've had to do that once or twice in the several years we've
>from the list.
been doing this. We run almost two dozen email lists, three
newsletters, and three websites in addition to publishing HEM. This
list was sort of my guinea pig, my ambitious attempt to give human
nature free rein and see where we ended up. In retrospect it was
probably a grave disservice to those good people who came here
looking for meaningful conversation and helpful advice, and I think I
own an apology to those folks who tried for so long to stick with it
through all the bad times, hoping for more good times. Sadly, many of
them are gone now and won't even read this, but perhaps if we build
this list back into what it can be we'll entice a few of them back
again? That seems like the least we - I - can do now.
> But there you are, still owner of the bookstore and watching it goGood analogy - and good advice, Sarah. Thanks for the helpful perspective.
>down in a pile of dust.. fast. This store has meant a lot to you in
>the past and you recoginize it's also meant a lot to other people in
>town. Do you just sit back behind the register and let this go on
>or do you ask the person(s) causing the rukus to leave? IMHO, you
>have a job to do *if* you still care about your 'store'.....
>or are you looking for a reason to shut it down? (I'm hoping not!)Nah. I wouldn't bother to look for a reason if that's what I wanted
to do. We're in this for the long haul, come what may.
Helen
Helen Hegener
At 10:37 AM -0800 12/6/01, Cindy wrote:
own merits as a publication, and not it's rather loose association
with this or any other email list.
Helen
>And yes, IMO this does reflect badly on HEM. My subscription is upI'm confused here, Cindy. I would hope that you'd judge HEM on it's
>for renewal and my feelings are that I'm not going to.
own merits as a publication, and not it's rather loose association
with this or any other email list.
> The bulliesI appreciate that, Cindy, and rest assured that I'm thinking about it.
>have the forum here and HEM hasn't done anything to stop that from
>happening. So my question to myself is : do I want to receive a
>magazine from people who allow bullies to take over? I won't
>make a final decision until Jan. - but since you (Helen) mentioned
>that I thought I'd give you this feedback. I wasn't going to say
>anything since I respect you and Mark and what you've done for
>homeschooling. Since you brought it up, I thought I'd let you
>know how I am feeling/thinking about it.
>One more thought : there are lots of Sandra-free unschooling lists outI'm thinking about that, too.
>there. Why did this have to become one of them? If people came here
>and didn't like what Sandra said or how she said, why didn't they leave
>and find another place?
Helen
Helen Hegener
At 1:01 PM -0600 12/6/01, groundhoggirl wrote:
this list being contrary to the philosophy of unschooling - but I'm
not sure many people besides you and I and a few others share that
philosophy. I take it as an indication of how successful schooling
has been. I know, maybe a bit of a reach to understand - I'll explain
it when I have a little more time and not so many other things
pressing for attention.
fuddy-duddyness showing when I wrote "I'm not amused by the
increasing frequency of foul language in posts..."
Helen
>Hi Helen,And i appreciate your input, Mimi. I agree with you about monitoring
>
>No, I don't think the behavior of certain people on this list should be
>considered a reflection of HEM. I don't consider it to be. People's
>posts should be a reflection of those particular people. I believe
>monitoring the list would be contrary to the philosophy of unschooling.
>That's my personal opinion. I don't know if I'm right or if I'm wrong.
>I'm a newbie and I think this should be your decision. This is my input.
this list being contrary to the philosophy of unschooling - but I'm
not sure many people besides you and I and a few others share that
philosophy. I take it as an indication of how successful schooling
has been. I know, maybe a bit of a reach to understand - I'll explain
it when I have a little more time and not so many other things
pressing for attention.
> I wishThanks for adding that, Mimi. I thought maybe it was just my old
>everyone would just remember to be kind and stay away from foul
>language. I, personally, find it offensive.
fuddy-duddyness showing when I wrote "I'm not amused by the
increasing frequency of foul language in posts..."
Helen
Helen Hegener
I've received private notes from a few people who've offered to help
moderate this list. I really appreciate their willingness to help
turn this whole thing around...
If anyone else is interested please contact me offlist for details:
HEM-Editor@...
Thanks!
Helen
moderate this list. I really appreciate their willingness to help
turn this whole thing around...
If anyone else is interested please contact me offlist for details:
HEM-Editor@...
Thanks!
Helen
Diane
> And i appreciate your input, Mimi. I agree with you about monitoringI also share the philosophy, but it just wasn't working here, and I was also
> this list being contrary to the philosophy of unschooling - but I'm
> not sure many people besides you and I and a few others share that
> philosophy.
considering unsubbing. It was getting to be something to dread, rather than
look forward to reading.
> > I wishNo, it's not just you. I did unsub from a list recently when I realized I was
> >everyone would just remember to be kind and stay away from foul
> >language. I, personally, find it offensive.
>
> Thanks for adding that, Mimi. I thought maybe it was just my old
> fuddy-duddyness showing when I wrote "I'm not amused by the
> increasing frequency of foul language in posts..."
dreading opening each new email because of the language prevalent on the list.
Their attitude was "we're far from mainstream so we can say whatever we want."
They *could* say it, but it was still offensive.
:-) Diane
Tia Leschke
>I was going to reply to this, but then noticed that Helen is going to be
>
>Can ANYONE see that my latest comments were not about Sandra? I mean
>really . . . I may have mentioned her name but the question itself
>had nothing to do with her directly or with anything she said. Once
>again for those who haven't gotten it; NOT EVERYTHING I SAY IS ABOUT
>SANDRA.
moderating the list. I'm now going to keep my mouth shut about all this
and let the moderators handle it.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
----------
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groundhoggirl
OK, guys you keep talking about these other lists. I belong to RUL,
Always Learning (Sandra's new list) and this one. Are there any
others? Can you post them for me so I can join them too?
Mimi
Always Learning (Sandra's new list) and this one. Are there any
others? Can you post them for me so I can join them too?
Mimi
On Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 01:24 PM, Tia Leschke wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> One more thought : there are lots of Sandra-free unschooling lists out
>> there. Why did this have to become one of them? If people came here
>> and didn't like what Sandra said or how she said, why didn't they leave
>> and find another place?
>
> That's one thing that I've been wondering. One person is *still*
> bringing
> up perceived insults, even though Sandra has been gone for how long?
> And
> some of those exchanges date back to last summer. I try to ignore it,
> and
> manage to ignore probably 90% of the nastiness, but it's tiresome.
> And I
> do get caught up in it at times.
>
> I've gotten some of the best support ever here, and I hate to give it
> up. I like Sandra's new list a lot, but it's got a different
> flavour. I
> really like the flavour here when people keep to the issues and keep the
> personality and nastiness out of it.
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
> *************************************************************************
> *******************
> It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. -
> Janice
> Levy
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 24/11/01
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Tia Leschke
>On other lists I'm on, the rule is that you go to the moderators rather
>So how do we come up with acceptable rules of behavior? I've seen
>some good ones on other lists... FWIW, the independent press list I'm
>on came up with waaaay too many rules for me - I can live with them
>under my other hat as a publisher, but not as an unschooling mom. I
>think the simpler we keep things the simpler it will be for people to
>remember and comply with them.
than the list with any complaints about another member's behavior on the
list. I think (hope?) that rule alone would end a lot of the hostilities.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 24/11/01
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Lynda
Mimi,
I have a chicken and egg question for you that came up on another list and I
can't get into my old files cause my computer is fatal erroring like crazy.
Which came first, which was the off shot, RU or RUL? And is RU still around
or only RUL?
Lynda
I have a chicken and egg question for you that came up on another list and I
can't get into my old files cause my computer is fatal erroring like crazy.
Which came first, which was the off shot, RU or RUL? And is RU still around
or only RUL?
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: groundhoggirl <groundhoggirl@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2001 4:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Hey, list...
> OK, guys you keep talking about these other lists. I belong to RUL,
> Always Learning (Sandra's new list) and this one. Are there any
> others? Can you post them for me so I can join them too?
>
> Mimi
>
>
> On Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 01:24 PM, Tia Leschke wrote:
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> One more thought : there are lots of Sandra-free unschooling lists out
> >> there. Why did this have to become one of them? If people came here
> >> and didn't like what Sandra said or how she said, why didn't they leave
> >> and find another place?
> >
> > That's one thing that I've been wondering. One person is *still*
> > bringing
> > up perceived insults, even though Sandra has been gone for how long?
> > And
> > some of those exchanges date back to last summer. I try to ignore it,
> > and
> > manage to ignore probably 90% of the nastiness, but it's tiresome.
> > And I
> > do get caught up in it at times.
> >
> > I've gotten some of the best support ever here, and I hate to give it
> > up. I like Sandra's new list a lot, but it's got a different
> > flavour. I
> > really like the flavour here when people keep to the issues and keep the
> > personality and nastiness out of it.
> > Tia
> >
> > Tia Leschke leschke@...
> > On Vancouver Island
> >
*************************************************************************
> > *******************
> > It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. -
> > Janice
> > Levy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.303 / Virus Database: 164 - Release Date: 24/11/01
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
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kayb85
The problem with broad rules are that they are up to the discretion
of the moderator. A moderator, being human, could possibly be too
sensitive and interfere needlessly in a good debate. The best "rule"
would be just a piece of advice: Develop broad shoulders and don't
take anything personally. If someone says something that offends
you, either ignore it and forget it or debate the issue without
taking it personally. If people play immature, childish games, roll
your eyes at them but then ignore them.
Sheila
of the moderator. A moderator, being human, could possibly be too
sensitive and interfere needlessly in a good debate. The best "rule"
would be just a piece of advice: Develop broad shoulders and don't
take anything personally. If someone says something that offends
you, either ignore it and forget it or debate the issue without
taking it personally. If people play immature, childish games, roll
your eyes at them but then ignore them.
Sheila
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Diane <cen46624@c...> wrote:
> > So how do we come up with acceptable rules of behavior? I've seen
> > some good ones on other lists... FWIW, the independent press list
I'm
> > on came up with waaaay too many rules for me - I can live with
them
> > under my other hat as a publisher, but not as an unschooling mom.
I
> > think the simpler we keep things the simpler it will be for
people to
> > remember and comply with them.
>
> More on the order of a Constitution than of legislation. That is to
say,
> broad rather than detailed. "Speak respectfully" works better
than "don't
> call anyone a badword, don't point virtual fingers at listmembers,
don't...."
> ad nauseum. In general, I also prefer to see positive rules (what
we *do*
> want to see) rather than prohibitions. Nothing wrong with modifying
a list
> you found somewhere else that looked pretty good.
>
> Good luck! I'm glad you came to this, but better you than me!
>
> :-) Diane
kayb85
I merely wanted to
much does it cost, and how do I subscribe?
Thanks,
Sheila
> let her know that what has happened here did/does, in my eyes,reflect
> on the magazine.Can someone tell me more about the magazine? What is it like, how
much does it cost, and how do I subscribe?
Thanks,
Sheila
kayb85
> > The bulliesit.
> >have the forum here and HEM hasn't done anything to stop that from
> >happening. So my question to myself is : do I want to receive a
> >magazine from people who allow bullies to take over? I won't
> >make a final decision until Jan. - but since you (Helen) mentioned
> >that I thought I'd give you this feedback. I wasn't going to say
> >anything since I respect you and Mark and what you've done for
> >homeschooling. Since you brought it up, I thought I'd let you
> >know how I am feeling/thinking about it.
>
> I appreciate that, Cindy, and rest assured that I'm thinking about
Would it be better to subscribe to a magazine that didn't encourage
free speech?
> >One more thought : there are lots of Sandra-free unschooling listsout
> >there. Why did this have to become one of them? If people camehere
> >and didn't like what Sandra said or how she said, why didn't theyleave
> >and find another place?As far as I can see, no one made Sandra leave. She could have rolled
>
> I'm thinking about that, too.
>
> Helen
her eyes and ignored anything she disliked and continued other
threads of conversation. When you do that, things tend to smooth over
eventually. Email conversations are kind of like unschooling. They
might not seem to be going very smoothly at first, but give them time
and things will work out eventually.
Sheila
Helen Hegener
Good advice, Sheila, and the way this list functioned for years, but
it's time for something different. Hopefully it will happen smoothly,
without the need for construction signs, detours, muddy potholes, etc.
Helen
At 5:46 AM +0000 12/7/01, kayb85 wrote:
it's time for something different. Hopefully it will happen smoothly,
without the need for construction signs, detours, muddy potholes, etc.
Helen
At 5:46 AM +0000 12/7/01, kayb85 wrote:
>The problem with broad rules are that they are up to the discretion
>of the moderator. A moderator, being human, could possibly be too
>sensitive and interfere needlessly in a good debate. The best "rule"
>would be just a piece of advice: Develop broad shoulders and don't
>take anything personally. If someone says something that offends
>you, either ignore it and forget it or debate the issue without
>taking it personally. If people play immature, childish games, roll
>your eyes at them but then ignore them.
>Sheila
Helen Hegener
At 5:49 AM +0000 12/7/01, kayb85 wrote:
You can find all the details here:
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
As you'll see, we offer much more than just a magazine. And we offer
free sample issues - no strings attached. So if you've never seen HEM
just fill out our online form and get onto the mailing list for the
current issue!
If you'd prefer email just drop me a note at
HEM-Editor@... and I'll send our email information
package.
Helen
>Can someone tell me more about the magazine? What is it like, howHow nice of you to ask! <g>
>much does it cost, and how do I subscribe?
You can find all the details here:
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
As you'll see, we offer much more than just a magazine. And we offer
free sample issues - no strings attached. So if you've never seen HEM
just fill out our online form and get onto the mailing list for the
current issue!
If you'd prefer email just drop me a note at
HEM-Editor@... and I'll send our email information
package.
Helen