[email protected]

> unschooling has made
> him a
> lazy, willful child.


If you had said this about my child I would have torn your heart out.
That you said it about your own tears mine.


Deb L

Bridget

I guess that just points to the differences between us. Having a
child with lazy, willful tendencies myself, I understood it perfectly.
Being able to point out your children's faults does not mean you
don't love them, it means you are willing to help them learn to be
better people.

Bridget



--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., ddzimlew@j... wrote:
> > unschooling has made
> > him a
> > lazy, willful child.
>
>
> If you had said this about my child I would have torn your heart
out.
> That you said it about your own tears mine.
>
>
> Deb L

[email protected]

On Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:19:48 -0000 "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
writes:
> I guess that just points to the differences between us. Having a
> child with lazy, willful tendencies myself, I understood it perfectly.
> Being able to point out your children's faults does not mean you
> don't love them, it means you are willing to help them learn to be
> better people.

It's all in how you chose to frame your child's personaility. I also find
it sad that someone would chose these words. I could say that my daughter
was bossy, argumentative, and stubborn, but I prefer to say that she's a
natural leader who is still sometimes working on when to cede a bit of
the control, she is an independent thinker and is quite forthright about
sharing her opinions, and she's very persistent and sometimes struggles
because she has difficulty taking a break from a situation.

I have a hard time with the word "lazy", it seems to be a judgement that
what the person is actually doing is unimportant - a person is lazy
because he's not doing something you want him to do. Cacie has spent
hours reading in her pajamas, or watching tv... actually, she often
tumbles into bed without changing into pajamas... I don't consider any of
this laziness.

And I much prefer willfull kids to will-less kids...

Dar
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Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:

> It's all in how you chose to frame your child's personaility

I think it is more in how you veiw the words and the language. Long
ago, I learned to disassociate the negative connotation from
descriptive words like willful and also from ones like dyslexic. I
personally have been called everything from abrasive to the deamon
bitch. The words don't affect my self-worth. It took me years to
learn, it took my kid's days to learn - but that was because they had
an example to learn from.

Bridget

[email protected]

On Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:59:59 -0000 "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
writes:
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:
>
> > It's all in how you chose to frame your child's personaility
>
> I think it is more in how you veiw the words and the language. Long
> ago, I learned to disassociate the negative connotation from
> descriptive words like willful and also from ones like dyslexic.

But the words have those connotations, whether you chose to recognize
them or not. Just by using the word "willfull" rather than, say,
"independent-minded", you're chosing a word which most of the speakers of
the English language will react to negatively. Why would you chose words
that are generally accepted as negative, rather than those generally
considered more positive which mean about the same.

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:
> Why would you chose words
> that are generally accepted as negative, rather than those generally
> considered more positive which mean about the same.
>
> Dar

Because I have a lot more in common with George Carlin than with
George Bush!

Bridget

Lynda

Maybe the problem is that most folks haven't a clue what certain words
really mean. What is wrong with saying someone says or does things
deliberately or intentionally or that one "does as one pleases" or is
"self-willed."

"Independent thinker" is not synonomous with willful. A willful person may
be an independent thinker but an independent thinker is not necessarily
willful.

Maybe all the debating would reach a more cordial ending if folks simply
asked others how they define the words they use instead of making judgements
based on one's own interpretations and experiences.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <freeform@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: homeschooling mystery - indeed-


>
>
> On Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:59:59 -0000 "Bridget" <rumpleteasermom@...>
> writes:
> > --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:
> >
> > > It's all in how you chose to frame your child's personaility
> >
> > I think it is more in how you veiw the words and the language. Long
> > ago, I learned to disassociate the negative connotation from
> > descriptive words like willful and also from ones like dyslexic.
>
> But the words have those connotations, whether you chose to recognize
> them or not. Just by using the word "willfull" rather than, say,
> "independent-minded", you're chosing a word which most of the speakers of
> the English language will react to negatively. Why would you chose words
> that are generally accepted as negative, rather than those generally
> considered more positive which mean about the same.
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

LisaBugg

> > It's all in how you chose to frame your child's personaility
>
> I think it is more in how you veiw the words and the language..

These two sentences say the very same thing. Some people just want to make
an arguement out of everything.

[email protected]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 10:49:07 -0800 "Lynda" <lurine@...> writes:
> Maybe the problem is that most folks haven't a clue what certain words
> really mean. What is wrong with saying someone says or does things
> deliberately or intentionally or that one "does as one pleases" or
> is "self-willed."

Nothing, and those phrases don't necessarily have the same connottations
in our society as "willful", or "lazy".

>
> "Independent thinker" is not synonomous with willful. A willful
person may
> be an independent thinker but an independent thinker is not
> necessarily willful.

But someone who is an independent thinker may have that trait framed as
willfull.
>
> Maybe all the debating would reach a more cordial ending if folks
simply
> asked others how they define the words they use instead of making
> judgements based on one's own interpretations and experiences.

"'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice
objected."

Words have definitions and connotations already... I mean, maybe people
who go around saying their kids are "dumb little fuckers" define that to
mean "small products of conception who have yet to learn algebra" but
that's sure not how the rest of the world will take it, and the kids will
know how the rest of the world defines those words.

I imagine it hurts a lot to have your parent say you are lazy and
willful, whether the parents know or accept that it hurts or not.

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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Lynda

----- Original Message ----- >
> Nothing, and those phrases don't necessarily have the same connottations
> in our society as "willful", or "lazy".
>
***Well, that is the point about folks not knowing the definition of words.
Those phrases are taken from Webster etc. and are the definition of willful.
>
> But someone who is an independent thinker may have that trait framed as
> willfull.

***This was in reference to using "independent thinker" in place of
"willful," so this isn't responsive. You are now trying to correct a
parent's definition of their child whom you do not know, so you do not know
if this might or might not apply to that child.
>
> Words have definitions and connotations already... I mean, maybe people
> who go around saying their kids are "dumb little fuckers" define that to
> mean "small products of conception who have yet to learn algebra" but
> that's sure not how the rest of the world will take it, and the kids will
> know how the rest of the world defines those words.
>
***Yes, words do have definitions and they are found in dictionaries. The
connotations are those brought about by individual prejudices and life
experiences. They are not universal.

It is your choice to not ask and thus not understand what the other party is
trying to say. However, you do not know whether or not the child knows and
uses the parents' defintion, if the child knows how others define the word
nor if they have even heard the phrase/words used. This is all supposition
which lends nothing to understanding, only to continuing arguments.

> I imagine it hurts a lot to have your parent say you are lazy and
> willful, whether the parents know or accept that it hurts or not.

***Again, that is your imaginings, not necessarily anything based in fact.
If you told my 9 yo that she was willful, she'd grin and say "I'm a Taurus
and proud of it!"

Which brings us full circle, IF one is interested in understanding and
learning, one asks for definitions of words and meanings of phrases. If one
is only interested in arguing a biased viewpoint, one stubbornly sticks to
their definition of what they have decided the other party is saying.

Lynda

[email protected]

On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 16:52:42 -0800 "Lynda" <lurine@...> writes:
> > But someone who is an independent thinker may have that trait framed
as
> > willful.
>
> ***This was in reference to using "independent thinker" in place of
> "willful," so this isn't responsive. You are now trying to correct a
> parent's definition of their child whom you do not know, so you do not
know
> if this might or might not apply to that child.

I am trying to find a term with more positive connotations that might be
used as a substitute for a term with negative connotations. I never said
it applied to any particular child - actually, there were two different
children being described as "willful" in this thread. If that one doesn't
fir, I'm sure there are other, more positive terms that do...

> >
> > Words have definitions and connotations already... I mean, maybe
people
> > who go around saying their kids are "dumb little fuckers" define that
to
> > mean "small products of conception who have yet to learn algebra"
but
> > that's sure not how the rest of the world will take it, and the kids
will
> > know how the rest of the world defines those words.
> >
> ***Yes, words do have definitions and they are found in dictionaries.
The
> connotations are those brought about by individual prejudices and
> life experiences. They are not universal.

The connotations of words are also found in dictionaries, and many are
pretty close to universal in a a given society. Can you really not accept
that 99.9% of the population would not find being called "willful" and
"lazy" to be a compliment?

> It is your choice to not ask and thus not understand what the other
party is
> trying to say. However, you do not know whether or not the child
knows and
> uses the parents' defintion, if the child knows how others define the
word
> nor if they have even heard the phrase/words used.

I would think that if your family has a secret, private definition for
words like "lazy" or "willful", or "dumb little fucker", then one would
understand that people outside your family won't get it and not post
using the words on a big email list. If you do, then you can expect
people on said email list to conclude that you are insulting your own
children publicly. Your children, too, will eventually realize that the
rest of the world defines these words differently that your family, which
can be kind of crazymaking for a kid...
>
>
> Which brings us full circle, IF one is interested in understanding and
> learning, one asks for definitions of words and meanings of phrases.

Words are already defined, though. That's how people communicate - we use
the standard meanings of words, and if we're unsure of those, we use our
dictionaries.

If you want to be an unschooling parent (which I assume you do, because
you're here), I believe it is first essential to be a respectful parent.
Yes, there are many parents who refer to their children as willful, or
lazy, or dumb, or ugly, and then say, "Yeah, but he doesn't mind, he
knows he is," and the kids all nod and smile... but there's a whole world
out there that thinks lazy is not a good thing, and the parents know that
- why else would you fight so hard against using a word with a positive
connotation, why is it so important to use a negative one?

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., freeform@j... wrote:

>
> I imagine it hurts a lot to have your parent say you are lazy and
> willful, whether the parents know or accept that it hurts or not.
>
> Dar
>

Aahhh . . . there's the problem. No one here said we say it to our
kids. Saying it here or to another adult is a lot different than
telling it to the child in question.
And if a child is "Lazy" - Predisposed to inactivity and "Willful" -
intent on getting one's own way, would it not be doing them a
disservice to ignore those attributes and not try to help the child
do more and be a better person?

Bridget
Nollaig Shona -- Síocháin ar domhan,
----------------------------------------------------------------------
At 18, our convictions are hills from which we look; at 45, they are
caves in which we hide.
-- F. Scott Fitzgerald

Sarah Carothers

Dar wrote, then Bridget replied:
> I imagine it hurts a lot to have your parent say you are lazy and
> willful, whether the parents know or accept that it hurts or not.
>
> Dar
>

Aahhh . . . there's the problem. No one here said we say it to our
kids. Saying it here or to another adult is a lot different than
telling it to the child in question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
IMO it's harmful to call *anyone* names and those who feel it's no big deal apparently have had it done to them so much that they've become used to it, and that is very sad and unfortunate.
I don't spank my kids; I use my words to convey my anger, disapproval, whatever. I can bring the girls to tears with just the words I use (*not* something that happens often, though... I hate being the discipliner!). And while I would try to tell them that kids calling them names is not worth worrying about (this has never happened), we all realize what power ones' choice of words can have.
I think, in *my* case, the choice of words "willful" and "lazy" stirs up thoughts of the hsing fundamentalists I live around (here in the Bible belt of the USA). In that circle, they view children as little heathens needing to be broken and put in their proper place (uck uck uck!!!!). Often, one would hear a mother describe her child as willful. So, for *me*, I'd never choose those words to describe a child as they are too closely associated to things and a way of life that I detest.
Sarah



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

If I were to get on here and bash wiccans our athiets, I would get
slammed pretty quick, but it seems to be perfectly acceptable to
slam "fundamentalists". I am most definitely a Bible fundamentalist--
one who adheres to the fundamentals of the faith. I don't appreciate
having my faith constantly slammed on this list.
Sheila

> I think, in *my* case, the choice of words "willful" and "lazy"
stirs up thoughts of the hsing fundamentalists I live around (here in
the Bible belt of the USA). In that circle, they view children as
little heathens needing to be broken and put in their proper place
(uck uck uck!!!!).

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., sheran@p... wrote:
> If I were to get on here and bash wiccans our athiets, I would get
> slammed pretty quick, but it seems to be perfectly acceptable to
> slam "fundamentalists". I am most definitely a Bible
fundamentalist--
> one who adheres to the fundamentals of the faith. I don't
appreciate
> having my faith constantly slammed on this list.
> Sheila
>

I agree with you in theory, but I admit I am having trouble
practicing it when the prominent leaders of the group are saying
things like:, "the pagans, abortionists, feminists, gays and
lesbians...the ACLU, People For the American Way and all those that
tried to secularize America -you helped that happen" in response to
the terrorism on Sept 11.

Bridget

Sarah Carothers

Sheila wrote:
<. I don't appreciate
having my faith constantly slammed on this list.
Sheila
>
Apologies, Sheila.
WHhle I still find viewing children like that distasteful, I appreciate your point... this isn't the list for that conversation.
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: sheran@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:12 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Something that's been bothering me about this list...


If I were to get on here and bash wiccans our athiets, I would get
slammed pretty quick, but it seems to be perfectly acceptable to
slam "fundamentalists". I am most definitely a Bible fundamentalist--
one who adheres to the fundamentals of the faith. I don't appreciate
having my faith constantly slammed on this list.
Sheila

> I think, in *my* case, the choice of words "willful" and "lazy"
stirs up thoughts of the hsing fundamentalists I live around (here in
the Bible belt of the USA). In that circle, they view children as
little heathens needing to be broken and put in their proper place
(uck uck uck!!!!).




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:12:44 -0000 sheran@... writes:
> If I were to get on here and bash wiccans our athiets, I would get
> slammed pretty quick, but it seems to be perfectly acceptable to
> slam "fundamentalists". I am most definitely a Bible fundamentalist--
> one who adheres to the fundamentals of the faith. I don't
> appreciate having my faith constantly slammed on this list.

I don't think I've ever met a fundamentalist unschooler, what a great
opportunity for me to learn! Do you find it difficult to remain true to
your faith while unschooling, and vice versa? My impression of
fundamentalist Christianity - which may be way off - is that it's fairly
rigid and requires a fairly controlled and controlling lifestyle, in
order to follow the biblical rules. Unschooling, otoh, is very focused on
flexibility and complete freedom, at least as far as learning is
concerned. How do you reconcile the two?

Very curious,

Humanist Dar
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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Samantha Stopple

I have found it incredibley difficult to be present
with others/ connect with other compassionately if I
have made a negative judgement of them. I don't
believe I can truly be compassionate or helpful. With
my intensely spirited dd I strived to give up negative
labels in speaking with her and silently as well. When
ever she does something that brings up those images
words of willfulness or bad in my mind a strive to
remember what is wonderful about her and see what is
very right about what she is feeling/doing at that
moment. As fars my dd's behavior when I gave up trying
to improve her and moved more to being present with
her and hearing what she had to say figuring out what
was right about her and her actions became more in
accordance with how she should ideally be in social
situations. Before when I was trying to fix her/help
her we were disconnected. Now that I strive to give up
on labels/negative jugements my dd wakes up in the
morning to say Mommy I Love you! She embraces me
throughout the day with an abundance of joy. She has a
smile on her face more than she did before. Her
intensity hasn't changed but my view of it has and so
has her view of herself.

Here is a poem that illustrates my thinking on this
matter from _Non Violent Communciation_ by Marshal
Rosenberg which has the following poem by Ruth
Berbermeyer

I've never seen a lazy man;
I've seen a man who never ran
while I watched him, and I've seen
a man who sometimes slept between
lunch and dinner, and who'd stay
at home upon a rainy day,
but he was not lazy, before you call
me crazy,
think, was he a lazy man or did he just do
things we
label "lazy" ?

I've never seen a stupid kid;
I've seen a kid who sometimes did
things I didn't understand
or things in ways I hadn't planned;
I've seen a kid who hadn't seen
the same places where I had been,
but he was not a stupid kid. Before you call
him stupid,
think, was he a stupid kid or did he just
know different things than you did?

I've looked as hard as I can look
but never ever seen a cook;
I saw a person who combined
ingredients on which we dined,
A person who turned on the heat
and watched the stove that cooked the
meat-
I saw those things but not a cook. Tell me,
when you're looking,
Is it a cook you see or is it someone doing
things we call cooking?

What some of us call lazy some call tired or
easy-going,
what some of us call stupid some just call a
different knowing,
so I've come to the conclusion, it will save
us all confusion
if we don't mix up what we can see with
what is our opinion.
Because you may, I want to say also;
I know that's only my opinion.


Samantha

__________________________________________________
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Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Lynda

People aren't slamming anyone's faith but rather discussing a segment of the
christian religion that is reknown for its child abuse practices.
Personally, I refer to them as the 3Rs because I have friends who say about
themselves "we're the good fundies, they're the bad guys"

I wouldn't think that any folks of the 3Rs persaution would be on this list
as Ezzo rules and domination, subjugation and denegration of women and
children doesn't somehow fit with the whole unschooling philosphy.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:12 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Something that's been bothering me about this
list...


> If I were to get on here and bash wiccans our athiets, I would get
> slammed pretty quick, but it seems to be perfectly acceptable to
> slam "fundamentalists". I am most definitely a Bible fundamentalist--
> one who adheres to the fundamentals of the faith. I don't appreciate
> having my faith constantly slammed on this list.
> Sheila
>
> > I think, in *my* case, the choice of words "willful" and "lazy"
> stirs up thoughts of the hsing fundamentalists I live around (here in
> the Bible belt of the USA). In that circle, they view children as
> little heathens needing to be broken and put in their proper place
> (uck uck uck!!!!).
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Karin

Great poem Samantha!
I *got* it.
It's a great way to strive to think always, about everybody.
Thanks for sharing it.

Karin



----- Original Message -----
From: Samantha Stopple
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] labels/judgements was homeschooling mystery .....


I have found it incredibley difficult to be present
with others/ connect with other compassionately if I
have made a negative judgement of them. I don't
believe I can truly be compassionate or helpful. With
my intensely spirited dd I strived to give up negative
labels in speaking with her and silently as well. When
ever she does something that brings up those images
words of willfulness or bad in my mind a strive to
remember what is wonderful about her and see what is
very right about what she is feeling/doing at that
moment. As fars my dd's behavior when I gave up trying
to improve her and moved more to being present with
her and hearing what she had to say figuring out what
was right about her and her actions became more in
accordance with how she should ideally be in social
situations. Before when I was trying to fix her/help
her we were disconnected. Now that I strive to give up
on labels/negative jugements my dd wakes up in the
morning to say Mommy I Love you! She embraces me
throughout the day with an abundance of joy. She has a
smile on her face more than she did before. Her
intensity hasn't changed but my view of it has and so
has her view of herself.

Here is a poem that illustrates my thinking on this
matter from _Non Violent Communciation_ by Marshal
Rosenberg which has the following poem by Ruth
Berbermeyer

I've never seen a lazy man;
I've seen a man who never ran
while I watched him, and I've seen
a man who sometimes slept between
lunch and dinner, and who'd stay
at home upon a rainy day,
but he was not lazy, before you call
me crazy,
think, was he a lazy man or did he just do
things we
label "lazy" ?

I've never seen a stupid kid;
I've seen a kid who sometimes did
things I didn't understand
or things in ways I hadn't planned;
I've seen a kid who hadn't seen
the same places where I had been,
but he was not a stupid kid. Before you call
him stupid,
think, was he a stupid kid or did he just
know different things than you did?

I've looked as hard as I can look
but never ever seen a cook;
I saw a person who combined
ingredients on which we dined,
A person who turned on the heat
and watched the stove that cooked the
meat-
I saw those things but not a cook. Tell me,
when you're looking,
Is it a cook you see or is it someone doing
things we call cooking?

What some of us call lazy some call tired or
easy-going,
what some of us call stupid some just call a
different knowing,
so I've come to the conclusion, it will save
us all confusion
if we don't mix up what we can see with
what is our opinion.
Because you may, I want to say also;
I know that's only my opinion.


Samantha

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
http://shopping.yahoo.com

Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom

Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/3/2001 1:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sammimag@... writes:


> Because you may, I want to say also;
> I know that's only my opinion.
>
>
> Samantha
>
>

Thank you for posting that beautiful poem Samantha. I, too, am very bothered
by the categorization "lazy and willful" . . . its why I asked the poster
what she meant by that, and why she held that belief, but have not seen her
answer. . . perhaps she is an occasional poster. I don't want to judge why
she labels in that manner but rather try to understand and perhaps offer a
different perspective when I know what she is referring to. . .don't want to
ass-ume I know what she means.

lovemary

Remember that every act is an act of self-definition.  Every thought
carries the energy of creation.  Every word is a declaration of what is true
for you. Look to see what you are doing today.  Is this how you choose to
define yourself? Look to see what you are thinking today.  Is this what you
wish to create? Look to see what you are saying today.  Is this what you
desire to be so? Each moment of your life is a holy moment, a moment of
creation


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> I don't think I've ever met a fundamentalist unschooler, what a
great
> opportunity for me to learn! Do you find it difficult to remain
true to
> your faith while unschooling, and vice versa?

Nope!

My impression of
> fundamentalist Christianity - which may be way off - is that it's
fairly
> rigid and requires a fairly controlled and controlling lifestyle, in
> order to follow the biblical rules.

I don't feel I have a controlled or controlling lifestyle at all. I
believe that I am saved solely through faith in Jesus as my Savior
and Lord. I don't believe that works do anything to save me although
I want to live for Jesus out of love for Him.

I'm trying to think of what you might be thinking of when you say a
controlled lifestyle. Maybe going to lots of church services? I
don't believe in institutional church services. I do believe that
Christians are supposed to *be* the church and daily encourage and
exhort one another. I believe that today's institutional churches
were created by man, not by God. We don't go to church although we
fellowship with other Christians as often as the Lord brings them
into our paths. We did recently start going to Sunday School because
there is one near by that the kids like to go to and they ask me to
take them. They are aware that they can stop going whenever they
want.

What else--maybe submission to a husband? Yep, I do believe that
Jesus wants us to submit to our husbands as a picture of how Christ
submitted to the Father. Equal, yet different roles. I also believe
that it is my job to be a helper to dh. Sometimes I don't do a great
job on the submissive or the helper parts, but I pray for God's grace
to help me in those areas. Dh is a great guy who loves me very much
and I have never felt opressed in any way.

I suspect I am controlling of what my kids watch and read than most
unschoolers on this list. I don't control tv or books for
educational reasons but I do make sure I read anything with
objectionable content with my kids instead of letting them read it on
their own (note that my oldest is only 8 so this might change when
she's a teenager and I feel she is able to discern what is true on
her own). For example, if we're reading a book and there's a
reference to the earth being millions of years old, I pause and
remind the kids that God created the earth only 6000 years ago. The
kids know there's certain tv shows they are forbidden to watch and
they're very good about it. Dd is even starting to notice things on
her own that would contradict our faith and she is quick to turn it
off, especially if one of her younger brothers are around.

> flexibility and complete freedom, at least as far as learning is
> concerned. How do you reconcile the two?

Until recently, I was an extremely relaxed homeschooler, but I've
recently made the plunge to total unschooling. I clearly see in
Scripture that I'm supposed to teach my children how to develop a
relationship with Jesus and how to live for Him. I don't see
anything in Scripture that tells me I need to teach my children to
read by a certain age or make them sit down and be lectured, drilled,
or made to fill out worksheets day after day. As a matter of fact, I
am concerned that our culture has made an idol of education. I
believe God wants us to use the brains He gave us for His honor and
glory, but not to put academic success on a high pedastal and give it
the high place of honor our culture does.

Does that answer some of your questions? Any more?

Sheila

Carol Gilliam

I know I will get in trouble for saying this, but I rejoined this list a few
weeks ago in order to get some inspiration and support for unschooling. I
still flucutate between unschooling and worrying about whether my kids are
learning "enough". Ever since I rejoined this list there has been nothing
but bickering and fighting. I do not need to waste my time on reading emails
between "intelligent" adults that are rude, name calling, uncaring and in my
estimation childish. Who cares or has time to even listen to your personal
bickering.

Lets share all the good things we have learned about hs and unschooling and
give support to one another.

Carol in NC


If I were to get on here and bash wiccans our athiets, I would get
slammed pretty quick, but it seems to be perfectly acceptable to
slam "fundamentalists". I am most definitely a Bible fundamentalist--
one who adheres to the fundamentals of the faith. I don't appreciate
having my faith constantly slammed on this list.
Sheila

> I think, in *my* case, the choice of words "willful" and "lazy"
stirs up thoughts of the hsing fundamentalists I live around (here in
the Bible belt of the USA). In that circle, they view children as
little heathens needing to be broken and put in their proper place
(uck uck uck!!!!).


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/2/01 11:20:48 AM Central Standard Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> I guess that just points to the differences between us. Having a
> child with lazy, willful tendencies myself, I understood it perfectly.
> Being able to point out your children's faults does not mean you
> don't love them, it means you are willing to help them learn to be
> better people.
>
> Bridget
>

Thank you Bridget! Not that I feel the need to defend myself, but here goes.
My little boy is a beautiful wonderful little guy, but to excuse certain
behaviors that are not conducive to our family as a whole would be
inexcusable on my part. My husband and I certainly do not say to Jack "You
are a lazy willful child." but we do show by example that those behaviors are
not acceptable to us. Sitting watching TV while the rest of us are fixing
dinner does not make for a happy family, every one is expected to help. And
when my husband or I say to him "come help" and he replies with loud
protesting NO's and throws a fit, well then I call that being lazy and
willful. I can't help it if some of you don't or won't use those words to
describe that behavior. It has nothing to do with being conservative or
members of any certain religion, because we aren't, it has to do with the
expectation that respect and trust go a long way in our home. I respect my
children's choices in their education, I trust that they will grow and learn
in a warm, happy environment and I trust that they aid in making said
environment warm and happy, with love and cheer, not fits and tears. I don't
burst into a fit when someone asks for dinner or a snack, and I expect the
same when I ask for the table to be set or the cheese grated.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rumpleteasermom

I understand that perfectly! My youngest for a while would throw a
fit if you asked him to breath. Not because he didn't want to
breath, but because he was having severe food sensitivity/allergy
problems and anything that involved him responding to anyone else
else included a tantrum. Now, some may be willing to put up with
that kind of behaviour indefinitely but I'm not and the rest of the
family was not either. My dd is learning to cope with her temper and
hormones and depression and ds is slowly learning that pitching a fit
at any little request is unacceptible. It is not a matter of being
authoritarian or controlling his learning or his life for that
matter, it is a matter of living in a house with 6 other people and
learning to be an equal member, not the pet tantrum thrower. And
definitely not the master of six servants, which is what he appeared
to be trying for a while ago!

Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., OZMOM504@A... wrote:
> Thank you Bridget! Not that I feel the need to defend myself, but
here goes.
> My little boy is a beautiful wonderful little guy, but to excuse
certain
> behaviors that are not conducive to our family as a whole would be
> inexcusable on my part. My husband and I certainly do not say to
Jack "You
> are a lazy willful child." but we do show by example that those
behaviors are
> not acceptable to us. Sitting watching TV while the rest of us are
fixing
> dinner does not make for a happy family, every one is expected to
help. And
> when my husband or I say to him "come help" and he replies with
loud
> protesting NO's and throws a fit, well then I call that being lazy
and
> willful. I can't help it if some of you don't or won't use those
words to
> describe that behavior. It has nothing to do with being
conservative or
> members of any certain religion, because we aren't, it has to do
with the
> expectation that respect and trust go a long way in our home. I
respect my
> children's choices in their education, I trust that they will grow
and learn
> in a warm, happy environment and I trust that they aid in making
said
> environment warm and happy, with love and cheer, not fits and
tears. I don't
> burst into a fit when someone asks for dinner or a snack, and I
expect the
> same when I ask for the table to be set or the cheese grated.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/3/01 2:27:26 PM Central Standard Time, lite2yu@...
writes:


> Thank you for posting that beautiful poem Samantha. I, too, am very bothered
> by the categorization "lazy and willful" . . . its why I asked the poster
> what she meant by that, and why she held that belief, but have not seen her
> answer. . . perhaps she is an occasional poster. I don't want to judge why
> she labels in that manner but rather try to understand and perhaps offer a
> different perspective when I know what she is referring to. . .don't want
> to
> ass-ume I know what she means.
>
> lovemary

I didn't reply because my dd asked to go visit her Grandma in Oklahoma, so we
packed up the car and went for a week. I just got back and did reply to your
question <g> see my last post.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

groundhoggirl

I would like to respectfully reply to the 2 posts below. The following
is my experience.

I have found that the less I ask my boys to do something, the more they
want to do it. They see me make three meals every day. I never ask
them to help me. I enjoy watching them do their own thing, even if it's
just relaxing and watching TV or playing their play station. If they're
happy, I'm happy. I have found that as they get older they begin to
volunteer more and more often to help me with this or that. It doesn't
happen every day, but it certainly DOES happen. They will ask to set
the table, grate the cheese, mop the floor, dust, vacuum, clean the
windows, etc. I wish I could share with you the feeling I get when they
ask to do these things. I know then, without a doubt, that unschooling
is working.

The best way to turn someone off to something is to make them do it.
Modeling is the best teacher.

I've always considered unschooling a way of life, not just a way of
educating. I believe in my boys having as many choices in their lives
as possible. I am not about to interrupt their fun so they can help me
with dinner. That is the best way to teach them that these chores are
unpleasant and no one should want to do them voluntarily. I do them
voluntarily because I love my family and they are necessary. Of course,
there are times when I resent the fact that my husband is playing his
computer games for hours at a time while I have to do my housework (not
very well - my house is a mess!) or cook the meals, etc. When I find I
need a little help, I'll ask him, not my boys. I try and ask as little
as possible from my boys, and I find, the less I ask, the more they
volunteer. Unschooling is beautiful.

Mimi


On Thursday, December 6, 2001, at 04:05 PM, rumpleteasermom wrote:

> I understand that perfectly! My youngest for a while would throw a
> fit if you asked him to breath. Not because he didn't want to
> breath, but because he was having severe food sensitivity/allergy
> problems and anything that involved him responding to anyone else
> else included a tantrum. Now, some may be willing to put up with
> that kind of behaviour indefinitely but I'm not and the rest of the
> family was not either. My dd is learning to cope with her temper and
> hormones and depression and ds is slowly learning that pitching a fit
> at any little request is unacceptible. It is not a matter of being
> authoritarian or controlling his learning or his life for that
> matter, it is a matter of living in a house with 6 other people and
> learning to be an equal member, not the pet tantrum thrower. And
> definitely not the master of six servants, which is what he appeared
> to be trying for a while ago!
>
> Bridget
>
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., OZMOM504@A... wrote:
>> Thank you Bridget! Not that I feel the need to defend myself, but
> here goes.
>> My little boy is a beautiful wonderful little guy, but to excuse
> certain
>> behaviors that are not conducive to our family as a whole would be
>> inexcusable on my part. My husband and I certainly do not say to
> Jack "You
>> are a lazy willful child." but we do show by example that those
> behaviors are
>> not acceptable to us. Sitting watching TV while the rest of us are
> fixing
>> dinner does not make for a happy family, every one is expected to
> help. And
>> when my husband or I say to him "come help" and he replies with
> loud
>> protesting NO's and throws a fit, well then I call that being lazy
> and
>> willful. I can't help it if some of you don't or won't use those
> words to
>> describe that behavior. It has nothing to do with being
> conservative or
>> members of any certain religion, because we aren't, it has to do
> with the
>> expectation that respect and trust go a long way in our home. I
> respect my
>> children's choices in their education, I trust that they will grow
> and learn
>> in a warm, happy environment and I trust that they aid in making
> said
>> environment warm and happy, with love and cheer, not fits and
> tears. I don't
>> burst into a fit when someone asks for dinner or a snack, and I
> expect the
>> same when I ask for the table to be set or the cheese grated.
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 12/6/2001 6:15:06 PM Eastern Standard Time,
groundhoggirl@... writes:


> I've always considered unschooling a way of life, not just a way of
> educating. I believe in my boys having as many choices in their lives
> as possible. I am not about to interrupt their fun so they can help me
> with dinner. That is the best way to teach them that these chores are
>

Absolutely Mimi. . . it is so ingrained in what unschooling is, the respect
of individual choices. If I am not interested in making dinner, I don't, and
someone else picks up the slack or we just snack on stuff. If I choose to not
to the laundry that week, either someone else does it, or it doesnt get done
and when we are compltetely out of clothes, someone starts doing it. . .
modeling and respect for all choices are keys to a peaceful unschooling life.

lovemary

I cannot judge my own path and SELF, having the knowledge that I have chosen
to come here to experience these specific issues and grow, learn, and
Remember Who I Am.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Leslie

It's true that each child if different. It's all my eldest can do to keep up with his own needs. If I didn't do his laundry once in a while he'd just wear dirty clothes. This said I couldn't imagine our family without him! His contributions far outweigh the extra work he creates and we all adore him. He does order the little ones to get him this and that, now and then, but they can't seem to do enough for him or get enough of him, most of the time. If I really need his help he's always there for me, but our ideas of what needs to be done and when, are as different as an 18 year old man and a 45 year old woman <bg>

My middle son is vacuuming as I post. He knows that tomorrow I'll be making dinner for all of his grandparents and if he wants me to find an hour to take him to the skateboard park he'd better get a jump on what I like to see done before they all arrive. I didn't ask him to do a thing. My little girl is more like big brother but she's encouraged to pitch in when she sees me show my gratitude to middle brother.

Biggest brother and little sister love to cook. Daisy will probably make something for desert tomorrow, she can follow a simple recipe and has mastered butterscotch brownies, rice pudding, fruit salad, coffee cake and a variety of cookies and she's only 7. I've always joked, with people who question our lifestyle, that culinary arts is a big part of our curriculum. I wouldn't expect the kids to help with things like cooking dinner or setting the table because I know they would be happy with a peanut butter sandwich and a glass of OJ in front of the TV.

Taking this time to write about our family reminds me of how happy we are and how lucky I am! I'm grateful to have a kitchen to clean, a washing machine to do the laundry, a bed to make, a bathroom to scrub etc etc etc..... Family life has been the highlight of my adventures to date and having an 18 year old reminds me to savor the chaos while I can<BG> I think I've been close to Lovemary's definition for inner peace except for # 7. For me the words mother and worry are synonyms. I'm Jewish, and though I don't believe in god, I do come by the worry and guilt honestly<g>

Leslie



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