[email protected]

Let me preface this with please don't take it the wrong way cause I've
reworded it several times and can't decide how it sound least offensive,
I truly do not mean to be offensive, only questioning. . .

You've all been talking about books you've read . . . do any of you just
believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?

Bridget
Nollaig Shona -- S�och�in ar domhan,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
goes on.
- Robert Frost

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/29/2001 3:40:27 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> . do any of you just
> believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
> family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?
>
> Bridget
>


Yep.

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sarah Carothers

<<You've all been talking about books you've read . . . do any of you just
believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?

Bridget
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'd have to answer yes to this.
When oldest dd was 5, I had her in kindergarten here. Things weren't going
well and I was pushed to my limits with that system. I knew *nothing* about
homeschooling; I was of the belief that I'd be breaking the law if I didn't
send her to school. Well, the day came that I could take no more and I
removed my child from that system without a 'plan' of a next step. I had
visions of being put in jail for what I was doing but heck, I just had that
gut feeling that it was the thing I should be doing regardless the
consequences.
This behavior rarely happens in me, though. I tend to like to have read
about others trying things out first before I stick my neck out.
...cluck cluck <g> Sarah

Kolleen

>You've all been talking about books you've read . . . do any of you just
>believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
>family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?


All or most of the time.

YET, when discussing a topic on a list, referring to a book one has read
that supports their belief system, its far EASIER to say 'this is what I
mean' instead of taking up time by writing long posts about it.

kolleen

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/29/2001 4:12:08 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
puddles@... writes:


> Well, the day came that I could take no more and I
> removed my child from that system without a 'plan' of a next step. I had
> visions of being put in jail for what I was doing but heck, I just had that
> gut feeling that it was the thing I should be doing regardless the
> consequences.
> This behavior rarely happens in me, though. I tend to like to have read
> about others trying things out first before I stick my neck out.
> ...cluck cluck <g> Sarah
>


I have heard from several Moms with questions along the lines of "I've pulled
my kid out of school, how do I enroll him with you?"

Guts and just getting fed up, I guess!!

Nance





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> All or most of the time.
>
> YET, when discussing a topic on a list, referring to a book one has
read
> that supports their belief system, its far EASIER to say 'this is what
I
> mean' instead of taking up time by writing long posts about it.
> kolleen

I guess it just struck me today that a lot of what I am hearing here and
elsewhere sounds like parroting of certain catch phrases from prominant
books. It bugged me a bit. I'd much rather hear about how things
applied to your specific situation, which things works and which didn't
and why they did or didn't. But instead, it seems that anytime anyone
posts something even a little bit critical about any aspect of certain
concepts, they are pounced on in a big way.
Am I making sense?

Bridget
Nollaig Shona -- S�och�in ar domhan,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no
one to blame.
- Erica Jong

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/29/2001 4:46:53 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> I guess it just struck me today that a lot of what I am hearing here and
> elsewhere sounds like parroting of certain catch phrases from prominant
> books. It bugged me a bit. I'd much rather hear about how things
> applied to your specific situation, which things works and which didn't
> and why they did or didn't. But instead, it seems that anytime anyone
> posts something even a little bit critical about any aspect of certain
> concepts, they are pounced on in a big way.
> Am I making sense?
>
> Bridget
>


Yep.

What did you want to criticize? :)

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 11/29/01 10:44 AM, rumpleteasermom@... at rumpleteasermom@...
wrote:

> You've all been talking about books you've read . . . do any of you just
> believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
> family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?

Unless I have a specific question to answer, I don't absorb information too
well from books. Everything I know comes from critically examining my own
thougths and observations to answer questions. John Holt just happened to
have the same ideas 30 (40?) years earlier ;-)

Joyce

Kolleen

>Bridget wrote:
>I'd much rather hear about how things
>applied to your specific situation, which things works and which didn't
>and why they did or didn't. But instead, it seems that anytime anyone
>posts something even a little bit critical about any aspect of certain
>concepts, they are pounced on in a big way.


Bridget, I'm not quite sure what you are saying here. Can you please
paraphrase it?

Thanks,
Kolleen

[email protected]

> You've all been talking about books you've read . . . do any of you
> just
> believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
> family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?

I believe unequivocally in my son's ability to know what's right for
himself.
Deb L

[email protected]

On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 10:44:27 -0500 rumpleteasermom@... writes:
> You've all been talking about books you've read . . . do any of you
just
> believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
> family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?

I didn't read Holt until a year or two ago. It was great that he agreed
with me on so many points. :-)

I didn't get the feeling that anyone was looking to authors to tell them
anything was "okay". Sometimes, though, an author will write a book that
explains with detail and discussion pretty much what I've been stumbling
along trying to say, and it seems that it would be eaiser to suggest that
someone read X book than to spend hours trying to share the same basic
ideas.

I went on a date with a guy a few weeks ago who was telling me how great
he though John Rosemond was. I did suggest that he read John Holt, or
A.S. Neill, since clearly he was at least ten dinnertime conversations
away from even beginning to get it, and I wasn't really interested in any
more dinners, at that point.

He had no kids of his own. Thankfully.

Dar
________________________________________________________________
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Elizabeth Hill

> on 11/29/01 10:44 AM, rumpleteasermom@... at rumpleteasermom@...
> wrote:
>
> > You've all been talking about books you've read . . . do any of you just
> > believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
> > family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?

So unequivocably that no book or online discussion could ever change my mind?

Then, what would the point of online discussion be?

(I know this is not directly what you said, but I was wondering if this notion
was lurking underneath it all.)

Betsy

Tia Leschke

>
>I went on a date with a guy a few weeks ago who was telling me how great
>he though John Rosemond was.

So who *is* John Rosemond?
Tia


Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

[email protected]

> >Bridget wrote:
> >I'd much rather hear about how things
> >applied to your specific situation, which things works and which
> didn't
> >and why they did or didn't. But instead, it seems that anytime
> anyone
> >posts something even a little bit critical about any aspect of
> certain
> >concepts, they are pounced on in a big way.


Bridgit,
You are on an unschooling list here. If you keep insisting unschooling
doesn't work, of course the people who know it does are going to debate
you.

You can question it all you want, we don't care. But don't be upset if
unschoolers defend unschooling on an unschooling list.

Deb L

[email protected]

Just some asshole who thinks he knows how to raise kids right by saying
no at least twice a day, to know that they're not very important, and to
get very little of what they want. He does a column in our paper where he
has all these great ideas that involve punishment, lying to your kids,
tricking your kids, elaborate systems of rewards and punishment... blah
blah blah.

Here's his website: http://www.rosemond.com/

On Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:47:42 -0800 Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
writes:
>
> >
> >I went on a date with a guy a few weeks ago who was telling me how
> great
> >he though John Rosemond was.
>
> So who *is* John Rosemond?
> Tia
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/29/2001 9:41:17 PM Eastern Standard Time,
freeform@... writes:


> http://www.rosemond.com/
>
>

God, what a sicko. I really feel physically ill after reading just a portion
of what is on there.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elsa Haas

By now I do. Reading certain authors was a big part of how I got to that
point, though.

I realize most of my posts cite books, rather than my own experience. That’s
because I’m writing my own book now, and I’m saving my experience mostly for
that.

I’ll let you know when it’s published (within a few months, I think).

Elsa Haas

-----Original Message-----
From: ddzimlew@... [mailto:ddzimlew@...]
Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 5:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom]Holt, Armstrong, Gardner, etc.


> You've all been talking about books you've read . . . do any of you
> just
> believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
> family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

meghan anderson

<<<<Here's his website: http://www.rosemond.com/>>>>

Oh my GOD!! And this guy has "Affirmative Parenting"
plastered on the top of his page with the "potty
training" article. I'm appalled!

Meghan



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
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[email protected]

Bridget wrote:
You've all been talking about books you've read . . . do any of you just
believe unequivocably in your abilities to know what's right for your
family without relying on Holt, or anyone else to tell you it's okay?

I will be more than happy to answer this.
I have read many books on unschooling, Holt, Griffeth, articles by Jeanne
Mustfeldt, Helen and Mark, the teenage Liberation Handbook, GWS, Blah Blah
Blah. I read these because I wanted something different than what I knew.
ALl I knew about was mass school learning. This doesn't mean I am *relying
on someone else to tell me what I think is right* I have been looking for
information that supports my ideas and found it. I have also read The Well
Trained Mind, What your Child Needs TO know by X grade, and otehr books that
are more geared towards classical education. I found that it wasn't for us.
I think that type of learning environment can be damaging and not just
because John Holt said so. For me and I think for many of us here on
unschooling boards and email lists (and this is just supposition because I
don't have all these people emailing me off list to talk about the list),
unschooling is just a term used to
define a shift in lifestyle to a more equal relationship with my children.
This includes child led learning.
For our family trhis may at some point include textbooks - IF my child
decided to learn algebra and chose to use my old college textbooks or get
some from the PS sales, or whatever. Unschooling isn't necessarily about
using or not using specific materials. It is about respecting a child's
autonomy.
and not following arbitrarily defined developmental guidestones.
The idea of unschooling was first brought up in society by John Holt, many
others then embraced his ideals and carried them further. We are not relying
on one person to tell us how to think. It is very helpful when people are
taking a different path in life to stick together and write talk and read
about that path.
Elissa

[email protected]

Bridget wrote:
. But instead, it seems that anytime anyone
posts something even a little bit critical about any aspect of certain
concepts, they are pounced on in a big way.

I really don't see this happening at all. I see alot of healthy open debate.
Elissa

[email protected]

Not what I mean at all, not even lurking underneath. It just seems that
for a few days there I was hearing nothing but catch phrases and book
recommendations. No personal accounts, no reasons for beliefs. It's
seemed much better here since I asked the question though.

Bridget
Nollaig Shona -- S�och�in ar domhan,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------
Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no
one to blame.
- Erica Jong

> So unequivocably that no book or online discussion could ever change
> my mind?
>
> Then, what would the point of online discussion be?
>
> (I know this is not directly what you said, but I was wondering if
> this notion was lurking underneath it all.)
>
> Betsy
>
>

Sarah Carothers

Elissa wrote and it's worth repeating:
For me and I think for many of us here on
unschooling boards and email lists (and this is just supposition because I
don't have all these people emailing me off list to talk about the list),
unschooling is just a term used to
define a shift in lifestyle to a more equal relationship with my children.
This includes child led learning.
For our family trhis may at some point include textbooks - IF my child
decided to learn algebra and chose to use my old college textbooks or get
some from the PS sales, or whatever. Unschooling isn't necessarily about
using or not using specific materials. It is about respecting a child's
autonomy.
and not following arbitrarily defined developmental guidestones.
The idea of unschooling was first brought up in society by John Holt, many
others then embraced his ideals and carried them further. We are not relying
on one person to tell us how to think. It is very helpful when people are
taking a different path in life to stick together and write talk and read
about that path.
Elissa



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

At 07:39 PM 29/11/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Just some asshole who thinks he knows how to raise kids right by saying
>no at least twice a day, to know that they're not very important, and to
>get very little of what they want. He does a column in our paper where he
>has all these great ideas that involve punishment, lying to your kids,
>tricking your kids, elaborate systems of rewards and punishment... blah
>blah blah.

Thanks. More than I wanted to know. <g> I think I'll pass on the web site.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy