Sarah Carothers

Disclaimer right off the bat: I *KNOW* I'm a control freak but I'm trying everyday to keep it within reasonable boundaries. Now, on to my post:

I find it interesting how homeschoolers (nobody in particular here) take their kids out of schools,thinking to themselves 'nobody's going to tell *me* how to raise my kids, etc' and then get on lists, such as this one, and talk all day about not controlling their kids. Brain-f*rt ;-).... they just *did* by taking them *out* of school. They have now altered their childrens' path in numerous and postive ways, I might add. A child of 5 or 6 cannot begin to understand the vast differences he will experience if he takes path a). public school or path b). unschool. As the parent of this child, *we* have controlled some of his destiny already. Was this a *bad* thing to do? No, I don't think so! Is control a bad thing? No, not if it's kept within certain limits. I believe the goal is to raise happy, healthy children. To do so, we have to give them choices as they are able to understand the various outcomes... it's a maturity thing.
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: Kathy
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 1:08 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Hello Snarky List


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@h...> wrote:
> Oh my. It's taken me an hour of reading, but I think I'm up to speed
> about what happened - and why. Too bad those obnoxiously snarky
> people drove Sandra off,

Isn't calling people "obnoxiously snarky", well sort of obnoxiously
snarky? We're lucky there's no trap door, just name calling, and more
blame.

Really I think that snarky phrase is funny. I don't know exactly what
it means, but it sounds funny. How many of us are snarky here? Don't be
shy. Aren't we all snarky once in a while? But
never obnoxiously so. Well maybe right now, but otherwise never.

Kathy B.
Smart ass
Deleted often
With reason

well ok, I admit my feelings are hurt by the whole thing. Hurt by
Sandra's seeming belittling of my allergy posts (maybe I completely
misunderstood her), hurt by the continued bringing up
of others' old perceived wounds and name calling (not me personally,
but a few on the list,) and still not understanding if Sandra left
because I was too harsh. Big ego I have, huh. It's all
about me. That I'm so powerful that I could "drive Sandra off" without
meaning to at all. Such a beloved and respected veteran, the "female
John Holt". The leader, in spirit, of this list. The
one who has meant so much to so many, was driven off by snarky me.

Or maybe she got tired of not being in charge, and tired of the
"general topic" nature of this list. That's cool. I can't say she
wasn't hurt, and I can't say that she didn't hurt others. It happens.
It's over. Isn't it?



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:37:23 -0500 "Sarah Carothers"
<puddles@...> writes:
> They have now altered their childrens' path in numerous and postive
> ways, I might add. A child of 5 or 6 cannot begin to understand the
> vast differences he will experience if he takes path a). public
> school or path b). unschool.

Sure they can. They can understand the path in the short term, anyway,
which is all any of us can really do. The long-term implicatiosn are just
guesses. My daughter went to kindergarten, went to two different
kindergartens, actually. She freely chose unschooling, since we'd been
hanging with homeschoolers and unschoolers since she was tiny she knew
that option pretty well. She's always free to go back, too, today, next
year, in 5 years.

I think you're underestimating young children. Children who are
underestimated frequently live up to that underestimation....

Dar
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Sarah Carothers

I don't think I underestimate them at all (one wants to be a neurosurgeon and I support her wholeheartedly!). I think I may just put more controlled situations in front of them to grab than you might prefer or do.
Unless they (5 yr olds) have been told or seen the end result of homeschooling vs public school (12 yrs ), how would they know which is best for them? Short term, yes.. they may see the light. Long term? I don't think they have the capacity to understand that at 5 or 6.
Just my opinion, of course
sarah

----- Original Message -----
From: freeform@...
To: [email protected]
Cc: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] control, and various past subjects mushed together here.


<snip>
I think you're underestimating young children. Children who are
underestimated frequently live up to that underestimation....

Dar



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 14:16:39 -0500 "Sarah Carothers"
<puddles@...> writes:
> I don't think I underestimate them at all (one wants to be a
> neurosurgeon and I support her wholeheartedly!).

I meant that you underestimnate what they can do *now*.

>I think I may just
> put more controlled situations in front of them to grab than you might
prefer or do.

What do you mean by this? I guess I sometimes offer things like classes,
or science kits, or cooking from recipes, or games, or whatever seems
like it might appeal. These all are "controlled" in some ways, but I
don't see them as "school-ish".

> Unless they (5 yr olds) have been told or seen the end result of
> homeschooling vs public school (12 yrs ), how would they know which
> is best for them? Short term, yes.. they may see the light. Long
> term? I don't think they have the capacity to understand that at 5
> or 6.

But none of us know what the end result will be for any individual child,
whether we're 5 or 45. My child had input and had access to info about
what it might be like - we talked, she knew other unschooled kids, stuff
like that - but really, she just made the decison that seemed best to her
at the time, and knew that she was always free to change her mind.

Dar
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Sarah Carothers

Dar wrote:<>I think I may just
> put more controlled situations in front of them to grab than you might
prefer or do.

What do you mean by this? I guess I sometimes offer things like classes,
or science kits, or cooking from recipes, or games, or whatever seems
like it might appeal. These all are "controlled" in some ways, but I
don't see them as "school-ish".
>

That's what I meant. Some people would view this as a controlling parenting style. I do not, though.
Sarah


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joan Balistrieri

----- Original Message -----
From: Sarah Carothers
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2001 12:37 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] control, and various past subjects mushed together here.




"I find it interesting how homeschoolers (nobody in particular here) take their kids out of schools,thinking to themselves 'nobody's going to tell *me* how to raise my kids, etc' and then get on lists, such as this one, and talk all day about not controlling their kids. Brain-f*rt ;-).... they just *did* by taking them *out* of school."

Not if the child requested to be taken out of school. My son recognized before I did that school was not the right place for him to be. My daughter went to Kindergarten (she wanted to) and was appalled at the injustices of the system--the senseless rules, the lack of respect...I think that when a child is used to being treated with respect and consideration, they are very aware and sensitive to what is not "fair," regardless of their chronological age.

"...A child of 5 or 6 cannot begin to understand the vast differences he will experience if he takes path a). public school or path b). unschool."

I think this has less to do with age and more to do with not being able to see the future. When I make a decision for myself, *I* can't foresee the vast differences I will experience if I take path "a" or path "b". (I've often thought that decisions would be easier to make if I could see the outcomes--but then life would be far less interesting too!)

Joan


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 16:49:40 -0500 "Sarah Carothers"
<puddles@...> writes:
> Dar wrote:<
> What do you mean by this? I guess I sometimes offer things like
classes,
> or science kits, or cooking from recipes, or games, or whatever seems
> like it might appeal. These all are "controlled" in some ways, but I
> don't see them as "school-ish".
> >
>
> That's what I meant. Some people would view this as a controlling
> parenting style. I do not, though.

Really? I've never met anyone (IRL or the net) who would see those things
as controlling, and I've hung out with the TCS crowd for years now. I
can't imagine a person who doesn't make part in any "controlled"
activities, if this is the way you're defining them. Watching tv requires
following prescribed rules - otherwise, the tv won't go on and the
channels won't turn. So do writing a letter, or emailing, or playing a
CD, or doing laundry. The difference is in whether the person is freely
choosing to participate or not, and if it's okay to deviate from the
"rules" - although your results may not be guaranteed if you do...

Dar
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Lynda

Just curious, did she come up to you one day and say "I want to unschool?"
Or did you ask her if she would like to do this.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <freeform@...>
>
> On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:37:23 -0500 "Sarah Carothers"
> <puddles@...> writes:
> > They have now altered their childrens' path in numerous and postive
> > ways, I might add. A child of 5 or 6 cannot begin to understand the
> > vast differences he will experience if he takes path a). public
> > school or path b). unschool.
>
> Sure they can. They can understand the path in the short term, anyway,
> which is all any of us can really do. The long-term implicatiosn are just
> guesses. My daughter went to kindergarten, went to two different
> kindergartens, actually. She freely chose unschooling, since we'd been
> hanging with homeschoolers and unschoolers since she was tiny she knew
> that option pretty well. She's always free to go back, too, today, next
> year, in 5 years.
>
> I think you're underestimating young children. Children who are
> underestimated frequently live up to that underestimation....
>
> Dar
> ________________________________________________________________
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> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2001 17:09:08 -0800 "Lynda" <lurine@...> writes:
> Just curious, did she come up to you one day and say "I want to
> unschool?"
> Or did you ask her if she would like to do this.

She'd been around kids who unschooled and homeschooled since she was a
toddler, so the concepts weren't new to her. We talked about it before
and during that year, so many of her friends weren't in school that it
was just sort of natural. I don't think she was real clear, at that
point, that there were people who homeschooled but didn't unschool - the
only homeschoolers we were friends with were unschoolers - so I think
she said she wanted to homeschool "Like Annie and Joe and Leesie and
Aliyah", rather than unschool...but she meant unschool...

Dar
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