groundhoggirl

I have to disagree with the statement below. No, not every child or
adult has a choice in how they behave. We can not ignore medical
conditions. I'm sorry I keep bringing this up, but, with my family,
this is very applicable.

And, let's not forget severe PMS.

Medical problems aside, I'm not sure I would want my child to act one
way when he feels another way. If s/he is angry about something, for
example, I think the healthiest approach for the parent to take is to
allow that child his anger. If his angry behavior bothers someone, they
can always just go away. The child's emotions should be respected. Me,
personally, I'm not into repression. I was repressed for many years as
a child and I don't want to do the same thing to my children. It's very
harmful, especially to the more sensitive children. Children have
feelings too and they should be allowed to express them honestly and
openly. Young children also don't have as much control over their
behavior as adults do. If they're upset about something, they can't
always express themselves verbally, so it will come out another way. We
need to respect that.

Mimi


On Monday, November 26, 2001, at 08:41 AM, sheran@... wrote:

>
> Sure they do. Everyone, child or adult, has a choice in how they
> behave.
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
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[email protected]

Some smart and sensitive children might have learned that the only way
they get their parents attention is to make a big scene. The only way
they get their needs met is to force the issue. The only time at all
they are taken seriously is when every eye in Wal-mart is on them.
Parents who use manipulation shouldn't be surprised to see how well their
children learn it. Children aren't stupid. If they're acting this way,
there is something to be gained.

I'd guess it's more a parental issue than a kid issue.
Deb L

On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 03:21:27 -0000 sheran@... writes:
> Ok, so I've been reading all the posts about not punishing/setting
> limits, etc. Everyone knows kids that no one likes to be around.
> They throw a tantrum whenever they can't have their own way, their
> parents can't stand to take them to the store with them because they
>
> always whine that they want everything and misbehave in the store,
> other parents don't want their kids to play with them because of
> their behavior, etc.
>
> So the question I'll throw out is--Why do some kids act this way?
> Sheila
>

Kathy

I am trying to be a good sensative parent, but my kids still act
"horrible" in a store once in a while. Usually it's because they're
tired, hungry, bored (errands like grocery, or other even brief
specific shopping, can be boring for a kid who wants to be elsewhere),
and that the outbursts are embarassing.

I think it's my fault for not taking care of their needs better.
Sometimes I don't plan ahead for food, or recreation, and have to "just
get these few errands done." I am trying to get better at integrating
play and food breaks into busy days.

I do know for sure though that with my young kids any punishment for
those outbursts belongs to me not them. I am in charge of how long we
stay, and when they get food. If I am not planning ahead for their
needs, they don't have much choice.

Another idea about "other parents don't want their kids to play with
them because of
> > their behavior, etc." is that some parents won't play with us because we don't go to church and are not christian. Other times, the other kids are just so cruel about any differences they hurt my kids' feelings, and my kids lash out. My 4y is working on not hitting or screaming when he's angry, but sometimes the other kids are just so mean or rude I am amazed. I try to supervise his playtimes, because many parents on the block just let their 3y and up run around outside and play without anyone watching them. One even told me they are old enough to know how to behave they don't need her watching them. Her 4y son started hitting my 4y son, and my son hit back, so the kid ran in to tell mommy and she told us it would be better if we played elsewhere. No kidding. My 6y daughter likes to play cars ("boy" stuff) and dress up ("girl" stuff), but many of the girls exclude her (cliques), and so do the boys("no girls allowed"). Maybe it's because they are all in school, or maybe she doesn't like being bossed around or teased. It's not always bad, but I had higher hopes for the neighborhood. She has friends in her Judo/Jujitsu classes and in her gymnastics.

rambling as usual


Kathy B.


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., ddzimlew@j... wrote:
>
> Some smart and sensitive children might have learned that the only way
> they get their parents attention is to make a big scene. The only way
> they get their needs met is to force the issue. The only time at all
> they are taken seriously is when every eye in Wal-mart is on them.
> Parents who use manipulation shouldn't be surprised to see how well their
> children learn it. Children aren't stupid. If they're acting this way,
> there is something to be gained.
>
> I'd guess it's more a parental issue than a kid issue.
> Deb L
>
> On Mon, 26 Nov 2001 03:21:27 -0000 sheran@p... writes:
> > Ok, so I've been reading all the posts about not punishing/setting
> > limits, etc. Everyone knows kids that no one likes to be around.
> > They throw a tantrum whenever they can't have their own way, their
> > parents can't stand to take them to the store with them because they
> >
> > always whine that they want everything and misbehave in the store,
> > other parents don't want their kids to play with them because of
> > their behavior, etc.
> >
> > So the question I'll throw out is--Why do some kids act this way?
> > Sheila
> >

[email protected]

(errands like grocery, or other even brief
> specific shopping, can be boring for a kid who wants to be
elsewhere),
> and that the outbursts are embarassing.

Sometimes I'd rather be doing something ele when I'm grocery shopping
too, but grocery shopping is something that has to be done if we're
going to eat. At what point does a child learn that we have to do
somethings that we don't like to do? That if we want to eat, we have
to go shop even if we'd rather be at home doing something fun?


> I do know for sure though that with my young kids any punishment
for
> those outbursts belongs to me not them.

Why aren't kids responsible for their own actions? In another
thread, people were saying that if a parent loses it and yells at a
child, the blame can be laid on the parent alone. To be consistent,
wouldn't the blame for a child's outburst lie on the child alone?

I am in charge of how long we
> stay, and when they get food. If I am not planning ahead for their
> needs, they don't have much choice.

Sure they do. Everyone, child or adult, has a choice in how they
behave.

Sheila

Kolleen

>Sheila writes:
>Sure they do. Everyone, child or adult, has a choice in how they
>behave.

When we are children, we are at the mercy of our environment. And
hopefully that environment is nurturing, loving and free from any type of
oppression or abuse (subtle or otherwise).

This is still an adult centered world.

I don't *think* there is a magic age at which they then become an adult..
but at some point, they are.. and then they are in control of their
environment and their actions and its effects upon others.

I dont' know about other countries outside North America in regards to
child-raising, yet I do find that we here tend to push our children to
grow up *much* faster than nature meant.


IMHO,
k

[email protected]

> Sometimes I'd rather be doing something else when I'm grocery
> shopping
> too, but grocery shopping is something that has to be done if we're
> going to eat.

Most of us aren't living so close to the bone that postponing a trip to
the grocery store is going to be the deciding factor in whether we live
or die. Most parents select a time that is convenient for *them* to go.
Most adults don't have someone whirl into the room and say drop
everything you're doing because it's not as important as what I want to
do. And come with me, even if you don't want to, to the most boring place
on earth. And never mind that your hungry, we'll take care of that
later.

If a good friend was visiting would we yank her away from a favorite TV
show to get to the store? I think we'd wait, out of courtesy 'till she
was ready too. Same if she wanted to eat first.

> Why aren't kids responsible for their own actions? In another
> thread, people were saying that if a parent loses it and yells at a
> child, the blame can be laid on the parent alone. To be consistent,
> wouldn't the blame for a child's outburst lie on the child alone?

Responsible isn't really the word I'd use, less experienced in dealing
with external and internal pressures would be more accurate. Parents
have had many years of experience in life to help them make judgements
about their reactions in any situation. Kids are still figuring it out.
Parents usually call all the shots too, about when to stop for food,
how many more stores to go to, what kind of behavior is acceptable in
the car, in the store. Having no control over an already disagreeable
situation wouldn't be any fun. I still say expecting adults to act like
adults isn't out of line. I think parents bug kids infinitely more than
kids bother parents. And without thirty years of experience dealing with
pushy, bossy, always in control, individuals, I think kids can't be
blamed for acting like kids.
Deb L

meghan anderson

<<<<Sometimes I'd rather be doing something else when
I'm grocery shopping too, but grocery shopping is
something that has to be done if we're
going to eat. At what point does a child learn that
we have to do somethings that we don't like to do?
That if we want to eat, we have to go shop even if
we'd rather be at home doing something fun? >>>>

First of all I'd like to say, why don't you make
shopping fun? My dd likes to go shopping. She helps me
pick out the food, put it in the cart, unload the cart
and then does the ATM card machine or helps me count
the cash. She's 7. When she was smaller, I made
picture cards of the things we bought every week. When
we got into an aisle, I would give her the picture
cards of the foods on that aisle and she would pick
them out. Anything can become a game and a learning
experience if you choose to take the time to make it
so.

<<<<> I do know for sure though that with my young
kids any punishment for
> those outbursts belongs to me not them.>>>>

<<<<Why aren't kids responsible for their own actions?
In another thread, people were saying that if a
parent loses it and yells at a child, the blame can be
laid on the parent alone. To be consistent, wouldn't
the blame for a child's outburst lie on the child
alone? >>>>

I don't understand this comparison. A parent is an
adult (ie. fully mature - we like to hope). A child
has minimal life experience and limited maturity (I'm
assuming we're talking about fairly young children
here - they're the ones I see having tantrums in
public). Children's outbursts can be caused by a
myriad of things (hunger, tiredness, illness, anxiety,
etc.). It's up to the parent to be aware of their
child's needs and to take care of those needs before
going into a public place (ie store) if they want to
avoid a tantrum. That's how I understood Kathy's
post. And who said that there needs to be consistancy
between a child's actions and an adults? There aren't
any societies (that I know of) that expect the same
behavior of children as of the adults.

<<<<>I am in charge of how long we
> stay, and when they get food. If I am not planning
ahead for their
> needs, they don't have much choice.>>>>

<<<<Sure they do. Everyone, child or adult, has a
choice in how they behave.

Sheila>>>>

Again we get back to the maturity issue. I think most
of us will agree that small children do not always
have the mental or verbal skills to clearly
communicate (or even recognise) their needs.
Therefore, they are not *choosing* their behaviour.
They are *reacting* to their feelings at the time. If
a 2 year old is hungry and mom stops to run one last
errand, does he have a choice? Can he get himself home
or something to eat? No, he depends on mom for that
and if she's not attending to his need then he may
'blow'. That is what I interpreted Kathy's post to
mean.

Meghan


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Vicki A. Dennis

----- Original Message -----
From: "meghan anderson" >
>There aren't
> any societies (that I know of) that expect the same
> behavior of children as of the adults.

Well, except for much of the United States these days :-). Look around and
listen to how many folks seriously speak of the importance of 4-5 year olds
dressing themselves, tying their own shoes, having their own alarm clock and
being responsible for getting ready for their job (errr "school") on time.
Sometimes it seems to me that "our" society in the U.S. has it
backwards.........we want to keep teens as dependent controlled "children" and
have younger children take on "adult" roles regarding "self-control" almost
from the time they can walk!

vicki