groundhoggirl

Hi Bridget and Lovemary,

In my opinion, it probably depends on the particular incident, but I
found that I usually add an explanation along with the apology. When I
apologize to one of my children it is usually because I shouted at them
(which, I think, is probably just as bad as spanking). I always like to
explain why something happened. Usually, it's something like "I lost my
temper" or "I didn't get enough sleep last night". I give them a big
hug and I ask them to "please forgive me, it was my fault". They almost
always do within seconds and things go back to normal. If I made them
angry, I think they should be allowed to be angry. After all, it was my
mistake to shout at them. I hurt them and they should be allowed to
express their feelings. I have found they never stay angry with me for
more than a half hour. It rarely happens.

Mimi


On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 08:49 AM, Bridget E Coffman wrote:

> Yes, and that the reason why the apology comes first. But if all you do
> is apologize and don't explain how the actions were connected then the
> child learns "mommy is wrong but I'm not." But that assumes that the
> parent is one who does not spank as a rule and who does truely mean what
> she says when she says she is sorry.
>
> Bridget
>
>
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:37:19 EST lite2yu@... writes:
>> In a message dated 11/25/2001 8:33:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>> rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>>
>>
>>> apologize and
>>>
>>
>> I believe that when you apologize, it should just be an apology . .
>> .period,
>> not making an excuse for what happened. When you tell a child, well,
>> you
>> pushed too much so that is why I spanked you and I am sorry, they
>> won't hear
>> the sorry part. . . they will only hear that it was their fault. If
>> a person
>> is truly sorry for something they have done, in my opinion, no
>> explanations
>> of how the other person contributed to it should be there. . . that
>> is taking
>> the responsibility off of yourself and placing it on someone else.
>>
>> Sure, mistakes happen like that. . .and I understand that, and
>> taking
>> responsibility is the parental thing to do. Making the child feel it
>> is their
>> part is abdicating that responsibility.
>>
>> lovemary
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>>
>> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
>> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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>>
>>
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>> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
> goes on.
> - Robert Frost
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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>
>

groundhoggirl

Yes, I agree with this too.

Mimi


On Sunday, November 25, 2001, at 02:40 PM, Bridget E Coffman wrote:

> Yes, exactly! But the plan for the future could also include what THEY
> need to do differently too.
>
> Bridget
>
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 11:57:36 -0700 freeform@... writes:
>>
> e.
>>
>> But I think there's a difference between an excuse and an
>> explanation,
>> and an explanantion may even come with a plan for the future.
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
> goes on.
> - Robert Frost
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Annette Naake

If he has 7 kids the same age, I'm just not going to blame him for resorting
to the switch now and then. The kids will survive. Hopefully the parents
will too. I think we ought to cut parents some slack now and then. None of
us are perfect.

Happy Thanksgiving, all. Tonight I called my mom, who unfortunately can't be
with us this year, and made the family red cabbage recipe while she and I
were talking, and it almost seemed like we were all together again.

I wish you happiness on the first delicious taste of that special
Thanksgiving dish.


Annette


_________________________________________________________________
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Lynda

A switch for 3 year olds, two of whom have CP? Sorry, I don't cut slack in
that direction.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Annette Naake <naake1999@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2001 10:30 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] switch, cabbage, T-giving,etc


>
> If he has 7 kids the same age, I'm just not going to blame him for
resorting
> to the switch now and then. The kids will survive. Hopefully the parents
> will too. I think we ought to cut parents some slack now and then. None of
> us are perfect.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving, all. Tonight I called my mom, who unfortunately can't
be
> with us this year, and made the family red cabbage recipe while she and I
> were talking, and it almost seemed like we were all together again.
>
> I wish you happiness on the first delicious taste of that special
> Thanksgiving dish.
>
>
> Annette
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/22/2001 1:31:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
naake1999@... writes:


> If he has 7 kids the same age, I'm just not going to blame him for resorting
>

WHAT??????? Are you serious? Have I been missing someting on this thread? Am
I on the right list?

lovemary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/21/01 11:31:41 PM Mountain Standard Time,
naake1999@... writes:


> If he has 7 kids the same age, I'm just not going to blame him for resorting
>

There are people here who have survived switches. Beatings. Psychological
abuse. Neglect. Rape.

People survive. Most of them.

Where do we draw the line?

Some just shut down their emotions so they're not much good to their own kids.
Some pass the abuse on.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kolleen

>Annette wrote:
>If he has 7 kids the same age, I'm just not going to blame him for resorting
>to the switch now and then. The kids will survive. Hopefully the parents
>will too.


Yes, there is something to be said for actually *italics* SURVIVING
*italics off* our parents and our children... there is also something to
be said for the underlying icky feeling one gets when they actually hit
their child. No matter how one justifies it, they know it deep down
inside. And will generally only admit it to themselves.


>Annette wrote:
>I think we ought to cut parents some slack now and then. None of
>us are perfect.


Heck no! Not one of us is righteous, no not ONE!

Which is an entirely different issue than violence begetting violence.

_I_ see it as a quick fix, like a drug. In the short term it works, in
the long run it doesn't. Using fear works fast, and yields deeply
resentful consequences.

Sometimes I resort to tactics that aren't the *right* things.. such as
guilt, punishment/reward etc. And I have found that my words only come
back to me somehow. And how absurb the whole thing looks to me.

I wonder if I'll ever survive myself *smile*


IMHO,
k

meghan anderson

<<If he has 7 kids the same age, I'm just not going to
blame him for resorting to the switch now and then.
The kids will survive. Hopefully the parents
will too. I think we ought to cut parents some slack
now and then. None of us are perfect.

Annette>>

I blame ANYONE for using a switch on another person
(or animal for that matter)! Yes, the kids will
probably 'survive' but don't they deserve better than
that? Like survive AND thrive. To me there is a HUGE
difference between 'cutting parents some slack' and
supporting abusive discipline patterns. Of course none
of us our perfect. I however, I'm pleased to say that
my daughter has NEVER been hit with anything or by
anyone, other than another child :-(. And speaking of
that, why is it that we tell our kids that it's wrong
to hit another person and yet there's a lot of people
out there doing just that!? Who can possibly think
it's in the kid's best interest to be disrespected and
belittled to such a degree!? I think it comes back to
setting an example to your kids by your actions. I
understand that sometimes people 'fly off the handle'
and may do something that they later regret, but I
still think and feel that it's wrong. And I believe
that everytime a child is hit, a little more of their
self-esteem/respect is erroded. Just my opinion and 2
cents worth.

Meghan

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Bridget E Coffman

Haviung not seen the show, I didn't comment earlier but . . .
. . . I think there is a huge difference between an open handed swat to
the butt and using a switch. Not that I'm a spanking advocate at all,
but the former can be a spontaneous thing for which one can apologize and
explain that it is what happens when one pushes another too much. But a
switch implies premeditated thought -out action.

Bridget


On Sat, 24 Nov 2001 23:41:09 -0800 (PST) meghan anderson
<moonmeghan@...> writes:
> <<If he has 7 kids the same age, I'm just not going to
> blame him for resorting to the switch now and then.
> The kids will survive. Hopefully the parents
> will too. I think we ought to cut parents some slack
> now and then. None of us are perfect.
>
> Annette>>
>
> I blame ANYONE for using a switch on another person
> (or animal for that matter)! Yes, the kids will
> probably 'survive' but don't they deserve better than
> that? Like survive AND thrive. To me there is a HUGE
> difference between 'cutting parents some slack' and
> supporting abusive discipline patterns. Of course none
> of us our perfect. I however, I'm pleased to say that
> my daughter has NEVER been hit with anything or by
> anyone, other than another child :-(. And speaking of
> that, why is it that we tell our kids that it's wrong
> to hit another person and yet there's a lot of people
> out there doing just that!? Who can possibly think
> it's in the kid's best interest to be disrespected and
> belittled to such a degree!? I think it comes back to
> setting an example to your kids by your actions. I
> understand that sometimes people 'fly off the handle'
> and may do something that they later regret, but I
> still think and feel that it's wrong. And I believe
> that everytime a child is hit, a little more of their
> self-esteem/respect is erroded. Just my opinion and 2
> cents worth.
>
> Meghan
>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
goes on.
- Robert Frost

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/25/2001 8:33:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> apologize and
>

I believe that when you apologize, it should just be an apology . . .period,
not making an excuse for what happened. When you tell a child, well, you
pushed too much so that is why I spanked you and I am sorry, they won't hear
the sorry part. . . they will only hear that it was their fault. If a person
is truly sorry for something they have done, in my opinion, no explanations
of how the other person contributed to it should be there. . . that is taking
the responsibility off of yourself and placing it on someone else.

Sure, mistakes happen like that. . .and I understand that, and taking
responsibility is the parental thing to do. Making the child feel it is their
part is abdicating that responsibility.

lovemary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bridget E Coffman

Yes, and that the reason why the apology comes first. But if all you do
is apologize and don't explain how the actions were connected then the
child learns "mommy is wrong but I'm not." But that assumes that the
parent is one who does not spank as a rule and who does truely mean what
she says when she says she is sorry.

Bridget


On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 09:37:19 EST lite2yu@... writes:
> In a message dated 11/25/2001 8:33:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>
>
> > apologize and
> >
>
> I believe that when you apologize, it should just be an apology . .
> .period,
> not making an excuse for what happened. When you tell a child, well,
> you
> pushed too much so that is why I spanked you and I am sorry, they
> won't hear
> the sorry part. . . they will only hear that it was their fault. If
> a person
> is truly sorry for something they have done, in my opinion, no
> explanations
> of how the other person contributed to it should be there. . . that
> is taking
> the responsibility off of yourself and placing it on someone else.
>
> Sure, mistakes happen like that. . .and I understand that, and
> taking
> responsibility is the parental thing to do. Making the child feel it
> is their
> part is abdicating that responsibility.
>
> lovemary
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
goes on.
- Robert Frost

Fetteroll

on 11/25/01 9:49 AM, Bridget E Coffman at rumpleteasermom@... wrote:

> Yes, and that the reason why the apology comes first. But if all you do
> is apologize and don't explain how the actions were connected then the
> child learns "mommy is wrong but I'm not." But that assumes that the
> parent is one who does not spank as a rule and who does truely mean what
> she says when she says she is sorry.

No. If an adult *loses control* and does something she wouldn't normally do
the blame *for the loss of control* should not be placed on the child. The
fault is *entirely* the adult's.

It's the same mindset that abusive spouses and parents use: "If you wouldn't
do that, then I wouldn't end up hitting you."

The anger, the loss of control already tells the child she did something
that has upset the parent. She doesn't need that message reinforced. But the
loss of control is *not* the child's fault.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Would there ever be a good enough excuse for a husband to hit a wife?
For an adult to hit an elderly parent? For a boss to hit an employee? A
doctor to hit a patient? There is never an excuse for a big person to
hit a little person.

What would be the consequences to a child who used a switch on a parent
or sibling?

It's abuse. A swat, a switching. Physical violence by a larger,
stronger person against a small, defenseless one is wrong.

Deb L

Bridget E Coffman

Yes, they do have the right to be angry and they need to learn to deal
with it in constructive ways. But I think it is also important for them
to learn that parents are human too. They can be pushed to the breaking
point and it is not entirely the parent's fault when that happens. To
assume the entire responsibility for an incident that was provoked does a
disservice to the child. I'm not saying that blame should be placed on
the child. I'm saying that the child should hear that actions have
consequences and when you push someone they are often likely to push
back, parent or not.

Bridget

On Thu, 8 Jan 1970 15:46:51 -0600 groundhoggirl
<groundhoggirl@...> writes:
> Hi Bridget and Lovemary,
>
> In my opinion, it probably depends on the particular incident, but I
>
> found that I usually add an explanation along with the apology.
> When I
> apologize to one of my children it is usually because I shouted at
> them
> (which, I think, is probably just as bad as spanking). I always
> like to
> explain why something happened. Usually, it's something like "I
> lost my
> temper" or "I didn't get enough sleep last night". I give them a
> big
> hug and I ask them to "please forgive me, it was my fault". They
> almost
> always do within seconds and things go back to normal. If I made
> them
> angry, I think they should be allowed to be angry. After all, it
> was my
> mistake to shout at them. I hurt them and they should be allowed to
>
> express their feelings. I have found they never stay angry with me
> for
> more than a half hour. It rarely happens.
>
> Mimi
>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
goes on.
- Robert Frost

Kolleen

>Joyce writes:
>No. If an adult *loses control* and does something she wouldn't normally do
>the blame *for the loss of control* should not be placed on the child. The
>fault is *entirely* the adult's.

Agreed here. AND I find when I explain to my son WHY I flew off the
handle, it doesn't place blame on him... it gives him insight to human
behaviour.

Of course, I don't say HE pushed me too far (although I have been guilty
of this in the past). I explain that I'm stressed and am not handling it
too well. I explain that I should of taken the time to stop myself in my
tracks, pampered myself somehow, so that I don't get to the point I'm
yelling. I ALWAYS end it with 'Its not your fault, I'm learning how to
deal with things also, again, I'm sorry.'


regards,
k

[email protected]

Yet, some people would say that unschooling is abusive. Or not
vaccinating. Or not giving your kids a bed time. You might support
making it illegal for them to spank their children, and they might
support making it illegal for you to unschool. (I've been on lists
where it's been called "educational neglect".) And not vaccinating
could be called medical neglect. We, as a country, need to stop
trying to usurp God-given parental authority and give parents the
freedom to raise their children according to their own convictions.
Sheila

>
> I blame ANYONE for using a switch on another person
> (or animal for that matter)! Yes, the kids will
> probably 'survive' but don't they deserve better than
> that? Like survive AND thrive. To me there is a HUGE
> difference between 'cutting parents some slack' and
> supporting abusive discipline patterns. Of course none
> of us our perfect. I however, I'm pleased to say that
> my daughter has NEVER been hit with anything or by
> anyone, other than another child :-(. And speaking of
> that, why is it that we tell our kids that it's wrong
> to hit another person and yet there's a lot of people
> out there doing just that!? Who can possibly think
> it's in the kid's best interest to be disrespected and
> belittled to such a degree!? I think it comes back to
> setting an example to your kids by your actions. I
> understand that sometimes people 'fly off the handle'
> and may do something that they later regret, but I
> still think and feel that it's wrong. And I believe
> that everytime a child is hit, a little more of their
> self-esteem/respect is erroded. Just my opinion and 2
> cents worth.
>
> Meghan
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just
$8.95/month.
> http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/25/2001 9:46:08 AM Eastern Standard Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> Yes, and that the reason why the apology comes first. But if all you do
> is apologize and don't explain how the actions were connected then the
> child learns

It doesnt matter in what order the apology comes. . . it is still clarifying
it with an excuse. When you apologize with telling them they were wrong to
provoke you, it is not an apology in my opinion. Either you take
responsibility for your actions or you don't and you try to provoke blame
somewhere else. It's victimhood as I see it. . . well, I wouldnt have done it
had I not been provoked. . . it keeps a person a victim. I don't want to
teach my children (by example) that hitting someone else because they are
provoked is okay to do, as long as you say you are sorry but be sure to
remind the person that they provoked you. How much sense would this make if
it were two adults. . .a mom and a dad for instance. Dad hit mom (or vice
versa) and he said he was sorry, and also that mom provoked him and pushed
his buttons and therefore was wrong also when dad hit mom. It just don't
fly.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kolleen

>We, as a country, need to stop
>trying to usurp God-given parental authority and give parents the
>freedom to raise their children according to their own convictions.
>Sheila


Yeah! and its damn hard to stand by while abuse happen, so I get on a
list, say my piece (peace? :-)) and hope I've done my deed for the world
*smile*


sadly delusional me

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/25/2001 10:19:09 AM Eastern Standard Time,
groundhoggirl@... writes:


> Usually, it's something like "I lost my
> temper" or "I didn't get enough sleep last night". I give them a big
> hug and I ask them to "please forgive me, it was my fault". They almost
> always do within seconds and things go back to normal. If I made them
> angry, I think they should be allowed to be angry. After all, it was my
>

Exactly Mimi. . . but you probably would not tell them that they pushed you
too far and that is why you yelled. I understand that kind of explanation. .
.because it takes responsibility for your actions. . . the other way does not.

lovemary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/25/2001 12:39:34 PM Eastern Standard Time,
sheran@... writes:


> We, as a country, need to stop
> trying to usurp God-given parental authority and give parents the
> freedom to raise their children according to their own convictions.
>


For me personally, I would love it if we could stop trying to think in terms
of authority and in terms of respect for people of any age, and give young
people the right to choose how they learn, what they learn, when they learn,
etc. I love the John HOlt book that talks about all these rights for young
people, like voting, working, etc. The authoritarian patriarchal model
doesn't really work too well . . . at least not in my world. The one that
does work is one of personal responsibility along with the right to choose. I
like this world!

lovemary



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:53:37 EST lite2yu@... writes:
> It doesnt matter in what order the apology comes. . . it is still
> clarifying
> it with an excuse. When you apologize with telling them they were
> wrong to
> provoke you, it is not an apology in my opinion. Either you take
> responsibility for your actions or you don't and you try to provoke
> blame
> somewhere else.

But I think there's a difference between an excuse and an explanation,
and an explanantion may even come with a plan for the future. So, for
example, I'm trying to work on something that's due that afternoon, I am
repeatedly interupted, I yell. We chill for a bit, I come back and
apologize, I explain my frustration, and I say that next time,, I'll
arrange for here to be at a friend's house, or I'll make sure I let her
know when I'm about to start this project so that we can take care of
things then, or whatever. I'm not only apologizing, I'm problem solving.
It's important that it not be a blaming thing - "I'm sorry I yelled but
you kept bugging me" - but I think explanations help kids make sense out
of their world.

Cacie has also yelled at me, then come bak after eating and apologized,
and said she realizes now that she was really hungry and she's going to
try to eat breakfast next time even if she doesn't really feel hungry.

Dar


________________________________________________________________
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Carol & Mac

Well, Sheila, I'm not part of your country, but I hear this sort of
statement here in New Zealand too:

sheran@... wrote:

> We, as a country, need to stop
> trying to usurp God-given parental authority and give parents the
> freedom to raise their children according to their own convictions.
> Sheila

There are many people both in the US and New Zealand who do not believe
in God, let alone a 'God-given parental authority'. I cannot accept that
the beating / hitting / smacking of wives / friends / doctors /
patients / old people / children is okay. I cannot accept female
circumcision of pubescent girls. I cannot accept the burning of a widow
on her husband's funeral pyre. I cannot accept child marriage. I cannot
accept that anyone, parent or other should have the right to hurt others
in the name of freedom of their own convictions. Educational neglect is
a matter of opinion. Physical acts of violence are visable, recordable
acts of reality.

Carol

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/25/2001 2:11:48 PM Eastern Standard Time,
freeform@... writes:


> this project so that we can take care of
> things then, or whatever. I'm not only apologizing, I'm problem solving.
> It's important that it not be a blaming thing - "I'm sorry I yelled but
> you kept bugging me" - but I think explanations help kids make sense out
> of their world.
>

i agree completelt. . i think i was talking about something else entirely
above. .. thanks for clarirfication on it though


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> We, as a country, need to stop
> trying to usurp God-given parental authority and give parents the
> freedom to raise their children according to their own convictions.


God has been used as an excuse for all kinds of atrocities. I know there
are people who really believe they have God's permission to hit their
children, but I'd be willing to bet these same people would not hit a
coworker or employer or neighbor. There are legal consequences for
adults who use physical violence against others. Imagine an employer
smacking a worker on the ass when he/she made a mistake.
It's not ok. No one believes it's ok. Yet it happens to children all
the time with no legal consequences for the offender.
Maybe it's nice to have God to hide behind.

Someone said if a parent looses control... I don't buy it. How many
times would it be ok to resort to physical violence if you were *loosing
control* with the letter carrier? The pastor of the church, the mother
in law?

Deb L

Elsa Haas

The book lovemary is referring to is titled Escape From Childhood - for
anybody who might want to read it. (It’s pretty radical, though. It talks in
highly speculative terms about what the world might be like if kids had
rights and not just “protection”, so I don’t usually recommend it to people
if they’re just starting to read John Holt or question ideas like schooling.
Most of his other books are more immediately “practical”.)

Elsa Haas



Lovemary wrote:

”I love the John HOlt book that talks about all these rights for young
people, like voting, working, etc.
lovemary”






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bridget E Coffman

Yes, exactly! But the plan for the future could also include what THEY
need to do differently too.

Bridget

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 11:57:36 -0700 freeform@... writes:
>
e.
>
> But I think there's a difference between an excuse and an
> explanation,
> and an explanantion may even come with a plan for the future.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
goes on.
- Robert Frost

[email protected]

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 15:40:13 -0500 Bridget E Coffman
<rumpleteasermom@...> writes:
> Yes, exactly! But the plan for the future could also include what
> THEY
> need to do differently too.

I don't think so, unless it's clearly phrased as a request for help, a
request that can be accepted or rejected freely. The way you say it
("what THEY need to do differently")sounds like they then share part of
the blame, and I don't like that.

So, for example, in my hypothetical example of my losing it and yelling
while working at the computer, I might ask if she'd be willing to write
me notes when she needs something if I'm working, and slip them to me so
that I can read them when I'm at a stopping point, which may take a
couple of minutes. She can then say, "No, I don't really like writing
much and that would be too much of a pain" or "Okay, I could do that."

OTOH, saying, "I'm sorry I yelled, but YOU need to leave me alone when
I'm working and not keep asking me for things" is not accepting
responsibility, and is blaming the victim.

I think it's sometimes a fine line, and if kids are used to being blamed,
they will often see a request like the first example I gave as a command,
and will feel like they bear the responsibility for the yelling.

dar
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Bridget E Coffman

I guess given the example I would say, "I'm sorry I yelled at you when
you interupted me but that was the fourth time in an hour and I told you
after the third time that I needed to finish this. Now, what can WE do
differently next time?"

And your wording below says it all, my kids are not 'used to being
blamed'. They are used to stepping back after an outburst and discussing
and analyzing why it happened and how to prevent it. Blame, per se, does
not not enter into it at all.

Bridget

On Sun, 25 Nov 2001 13:53:49 -0700 freeform@... writes:

>
> I think it's sometimes a fine line, and if kids are used to being
> blamed,
> they will often see a request like the first example I gave as a
> command,
> and will feel like they bear the responsibility for the yelling.
>
> dar

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
In three words I can sum up everything I've learned about life: it
goes on.
- Robert Frost

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/25/2001 3:38:25 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


>
> Yes, exactly! But the plan for the future could also include what THEY
> need to do differently too.
>
>

Then you are back to putting the focus back on them when it should be on
yourself and how you plan to do things differently. It still says that the
person that was hit has some blame, when in fact, they do not. Their behavior
of "pushing you too far" is not responsible for you hitting. It can be no
plainer than that. Same with yelling. . . something I am absolutely guilty
of. When I feel I have gotten pushed into it, this is an error in my
thinking. No one can push me to do anything. . . I chose to yell and put my
children in a position of fear of me. . . very very wrong of me to do. Very
much MY responsibility to figure out why my buttons get pushed and what this
says about me (resorting to anger and yelling). . . something I grapple with
still.


lovemary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/25/2001 4:00:31 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> , "I'm sorry I yelled at you when
> you interupted me but that was the fourth time in an hour and I told you
> after the third time that I needed to finish this. Now, what can WE do
> differently next time?"
>
> And your wording below says it all, my kids are not 'used to being
> blamed'. They are used to stepping back after an outburst and discussing
> and analyzing why it happened and how to prevent it. Blame, per se, does
> not not enter into it at all.
>
>

Blame is absolutely in there. . .when you use the "but" and clarify it is
they that caused you to yell. That is blaming them.

I do this too. . . I know exactly how frustrating it can be to be interrupted
and wanting to see it as their fault. . . but it really isn't. When I yell,
its ME and only me who yelled. As I said, its an issue I grapple with. . . I
know it isnt easy. The hardest part is the realization that this is something
I am doing that harms my children. Stopping what I am doing to pay attention
to what they need is not always what I want to do, but it is what I need to
do, and it is what I signed up for.

lovemary




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]