the 'not so allergic' child....
[email protected]
OK, i realize i am entering this topic late, but i have to interject. i have
written this over several times, and i considered not sending it but i feel
its importance.
i have a wonderful 3 year old son. he is PDD which stands for Pervasive
Developmental Delay. It is a disorder on the autism spectrum if that helps
you visualize.
my Niko is a wonderful, non-verbal, child. he can't tell you dairy hurts. he
craves milk and all dairy. he would eat it 24/7 if he was given the chance.
when dairy is removed from his diet, you would never even believe he was
autistic, yet one tiny infraction and anyone can tell immediately! if he has
any, even that tiny bit that well meaning loved ones give on the sly, he
will withdraw from society. he becomes a whiny, crying, bloated and gassy,
miserable child. He tantrums (do you blame him, it hurts). this poisoned
child!! (see below for reasoning on that one) who is looked at by others as a
typical *terrible* 3's child. if you did not know his dietary intervention
you could possibly believe the transformation was willful. he is far from
willful!! he is the most easygoing person i have ever met.
is he allergic according to the true definition?
no.
do i tell everyone he is allergic?
yes.
for the simple reason, that when i sit and explain that dairy causes a
chemical imbalance in him because of a lacking enzyme in his body, and it
will cause him to "trip" as if on LSD and he will be a monster for several
days after that one tiny cookie/chocolate/treat that person will invariably
say "so you mean he is allergic" after shaking their head at my verbiage. and
of course they think IM nuts.
as far as what i expect others to do if taking care of him, it is not the
easiest thing to do to send him out with his own snacks. (you would not
believe how many things have hidden dry milk as an ingredient listed as
something else. casin, lecithin.. etc.) but i do not expect everyone to read
all labels and make as many phone calls to manufacturers as i do. so he goes
with snacks, and I ask who is in charge to make sure he is not drinking or
eating anything he is not given by me. sorry for this long winded reply, but
the statement that you gave a child milk and he had no reaction shows me that
you were not really listening to this Mom. once admitted
to someone that Niko was not really allergic, tried to explain, but she heard
"not allergic really" and she gave him some ice cream. he was fine for
several hours, and she may have thought that i was a liar. however, he did
not sleep for a week and neither did I.
Joy
Mom to
Andrew 11/29/94 too smart for me to keep up with
Anastasia 8/8/96 the princess!!
Nicholas 6/21/98 my PDD child who loves to make me smile!!
Michael 6/21/00 such an imp you ever saw
written this over several times, and i considered not sending it but i feel
its importance.
i have a wonderful 3 year old son. he is PDD which stands for Pervasive
Developmental Delay. It is a disorder on the autism spectrum if that helps
you visualize.
my Niko is a wonderful, non-verbal, child. he can't tell you dairy hurts. he
craves milk and all dairy. he would eat it 24/7 if he was given the chance.
when dairy is removed from his diet, you would never even believe he was
autistic, yet one tiny infraction and anyone can tell immediately! if he has
any, even that tiny bit that well meaning loved ones give on the sly, he
will withdraw from society. he becomes a whiny, crying, bloated and gassy,
miserable child. He tantrums (do you blame him, it hurts). this poisoned
child!! (see below for reasoning on that one) who is looked at by others as a
typical *terrible* 3's child. if you did not know his dietary intervention
you could possibly believe the transformation was willful. he is far from
willful!! he is the most easygoing person i have ever met.
is he allergic according to the true definition?
no.
do i tell everyone he is allergic?
yes.
for the simple reason, that when i sit and explain that dairy causes a
chemical imbalance in him because of a lacking enzyme in his body, and it
will cause him to "trip" as if on LSD and he will be a monster for several
days after that one tiny cookie/chocolate/treat that person will invariably
say "so you mean he is allergic" after shaking their head at my verbiage. and
of course they think IM nuts.
as far as what i expect others to do if taking care of him, it is not the
easiest thing to do to send him out with his own snacks. (you would not
believe how many things have hidden dry milk as an ingredient listed as
something else. casin, lecithin.. etc.) but i do not expect everyone to read
all labels and make as many phone calls to manufacturers as i do. so he goes
with snacks, and I ask who is in charge to make sure he is not drinking or
eating anything he is not given by me. sorry for this long winded reply, but
the statement that you gave a child milk and he had no reaction shows me that
you were not really listening to this Mom. once admitted
to someone that Niko was not really allergic, tried to explain, but she heard
"not allergic really" and she gave him some ice cream. he was fine for
several hours, and she may have thought that i was a liar. however, he did
not sleep for a week and neither did I.
Joy
Mom to
Andrew 11/29/94 too smart for me to keep up with
Anastasia 8/8/96 the princess!!
Nicholas 6/21/98 my PDD child who loves to make me smile!!
Michael 6/21/00 such an imp you ever saw
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Final episode on this topic for me, Sandra is of course wanted to share
> her thoughts as well.
>
> I would like to be respectful, but I am not always that bright. I do
> want her to be herself, and I hope she can see that sometimes
> what seems like an argument, can really be two people who agree on the
> basics, but not always the terminology. We both want
> thoughtful caring adults to raise independent healthy children. We
> don't like hypocrites, control freaks, or labeling people (yes
> joke). We want our kids to learn to make their own decisions, and for
> them to decide what's best for themselves.
>
> here goes. I am again the K, and Sandra will be played by the letter S.
>
>
>
> S-"> How is 'no personal experience" true? Because I don't have a
> child with
> > allergies?"
>
> K- I think that is the definition I was thinking of. Also that you have
> not mentioned any personal (as in you personally) experience with food
> reactions of your own. I am happy that you don't have to put up with
> any of it and are free.
>
> Your 2 cents worth of experiences with liars and control freaks then
> falls ito the category of heresay, which seemed to merely echo
> society's claim that it is all hogwash. You granted the some are real
> and some are not. That is true of anything, yet it makes the people in
> the middle even more suspicious that we just make it all up. Perhaps
> research on the subject would give you more insight into the problem. I
> enjoyed the book "Is This Your Child" by Doris Rapp. There are others,
> but this is a good start.
>
>
> > -=-Saying something "loudly and with feeling" might be
> > asking for help, information or support, but I don't think ridicule
> > is a helpful path.-=-
> >
> S-"> I don't ridicule them,"
>
> Not to their face then, just on a list of 600 strangers. Of course that
> was gratuitous and rude of me. Sorry. Not sorry enough to
> delete it though. My bad.
>
>
>
> >
> >k -=-Did you lie to her and say you would follow, or had followed, her
> > instructions? -=-
> >
> S-"> No. (That could only be asked by someone who doesn't know me very
> well!)
> > I didn't say a word."
>
>
> K- That is called lying by omission. Of course I have never lied,
> except just then. My bad, again. (pretending it's humor is no
> excuse for my rudeness)
>
>
>
> > -=-OK too many maybes for this instance, but I say the
> > decision was not yours to make.-=-
> >
> S-"> What decision? To take the mom's word that she was a liar?
> > To keep her son for free?"
>
> K- Your decision to ignore her wishes because you thought she was
> wrong.
>
>
>
> > k-=- I would be helpful for others to
> > keep an open mind that it could be real. -=-
> >
> S-"> It's all real.
> >
> > Some allergies are more real than others."
>
> Then how is it all real if some of it is not? The confusion may be
> real, the searching for answers. It's hard to remember that most
> people are just trying their best with what they've learned so far.
> Helping is more useful than judgment. I know that people don't
> always want help, but saying what works for us has given other people
> freedom to consider new possibilities.
>
>
> >
> > k"-=-Many parents have said that their allergic kids feel deprived and
> > binge, others say their kids understand and feel good about taking
> > care
> > of themselves. The bingeing may have more to do with addiction than
> > with
> > social deprivation. -=-"
> >
> S-"> By this logic, any teen or adult who rejects the parental
> restrictions when
> > freedom hits and goes ahead and eats wheat or sugar has proven the parent
> > right! The child WAS an addict, proving that by not continuing the food
> ban
> > for life?"
>
> K- What if the parent was right? What if the parent was wrong? If they
> were right the child may bee in good physical health and really notice
> that the binge made them ill. If they were wrong the child could learn
> that it was not a problem after all. I guess you're upset that the
> child lost all those years of making their own decisions. I agree with
> that, yet I feel conflict about health and freedom. I don't think they
> have to be mutually exclusive, yet I am sure the balance is possible.
>
> Are you disagreeing with the idea of addiction? I don't really know
> what I think of addiction. I am still asking lots of
> questions. There are so many other issues that come up when anyone
> talks about binge foods- self control, will power, stress,
> social pressure. They are related but how can people stop binges?
> Someone here said that they kept some of the foods in the
> house and that stopped the bingeing at friends' houses. So far for us,
> we just binge here instead if I do buy the foods. I am not
> trying to fight with anyone. I am really asking 600 people if they have
> any other thoughts on the subject besides that it doesn't
> happen to sensible people. This is not a food disorders list, I know
> that. It is a list of curious people though, who don't always
> follow society's line, and do find their own answers.
>
>
> > -=-Why are the things that are the worst
> > for us considered treats?-=-
> >
> S-"> I don't know that that's true. There are traditional seasonal or
> holiday
> > foods that are not the worst-for-us foods. It's rarity that makes a
> treat,
> > not bodily damage."
>
> I guess I am using the word treat the way I hear it used most often.
> "Treat yourself to dessert (daily), have a treat at the store (candy),
> buy a treat at the movies", all over the place every day, as if you're
> not normal if you avoid that stuff. If treat only meant rarity that
> wouldn't be a problem. It's the on going bombardment of junk foods at
> every house,
> halloween/easter/christmas/valentine's candy that is passed out all
> over the place, the high fat/sugar/salt diet that is most people's
> idea if regular food. The idea that to avoid this kind of food is
> unnatural and bad. I'm trying to keep the kids healthy enough to
> learn the difference. If you're constantly in a drugged state, you
> won't notice it, but if you are fine until you have the cake and ice
> cream, you'll learn the connection.
>
>
>
> >
> S-"> Without options, a child cannot learn to "develop their own
> choices." If the
> > foods are highly restricted, some children will choose to be sneaky or
> eat
> > elsewhere. They can't choose fruit over cake if there was no cake
> available."
> >
>
> K- I guess that I don't highly restrict foods. I don't buy things that
> are junk because they're just not food. They are treats that can
> be had once in awhile, but not every day, every week.
>
> My kids turn down junk sometimes, or just have a little. Not because
> I'm hovering over them with a whip, but because they eat
> whatever they want most of the time. I haven't made any food evil or
> forbidden, just I try not to buy stuff that makes us sick. Is
> that nuts? I really am still learning about all this food stuff.
>
> If you or your own children have never binged, how do you know what's
> the right thing to do about it? I don't know myself.
>
>
>
> S-"> A child can't clean his room by his own choice (as Marty did a few
> weeks
> > back--big reorganization) if room cleaning is mandated. If it is
> mandated on
> > a schedule, the child can ONLY "choose" by choosing not to cooperate.
> >
> > My husband's family of origin set up that kind of "choice"--the "my way
> or
> > the highway" scenario. We have in full knowledge of our intent set out
> > never to do that to our kids."
> >
> >K-" -=-I think that the best person to determine what freedoms the
> > child is ready for is the observant responsive guardian at first,
> > then gradually as the kid gets more real experience it shifts to the kid.
> -=-"
> >
> S-"> My mother in law still tells adults just what to do and how, and
> chortles
> > derisively at anything except "Okay! right now! Thanks!." A notable
> > quote--Kirby was five days or so old when she came to see him, and I
> asked if
> > she wanted to change his diaper (I thought it was a generous, friendly
> thing
> > to offer; she had been a nurse and the mother of three boys). She came
> back
> > and said bruskly with no eye contact "You have to get him circumcised."
> >
> > (And don't bother to ask if I lied and said I would.)"
>
> K- I agree that some people (nosey relatives) are not moved by
> arguments that you are doing the right thing by your best
> available knowledge. Sometimes I just say that (whatever) is working
> well for us and we're happy thanks.
>
>
> >
> >k-" -=-I say the lucky parent who follows the child's true needs will
> raise a more
> > responsible happier person.-=-"
> >
> S-"> She was sure that her children truly needed to do what she said
> without
> > hestitation or question until they were out of her house. Guess how
> quickly
> > they were all out of her house? Navy, run-away, college in another
> city."
>
> K- You snipped away the part where I said what I thought a few of a
> child's true needs are. Self control, mutual respect,
> accomplishment.
>
> Actually the Navy sounds like another place for someone to be expected
> to do what they're told without hesitation or question.
> Ironic. A very challenging career is the military. Many people excel
> and serve with honors, and learn very useful skills.
>
>
>
> >
> >k" -=-Anyone who experiences real problems with certain foods is free
> > to choose to avoid them, and to ask that any caregiver follow that
> > choice also. If you are not comfortable with that, then the honest thing
> to
> > do is to decline to watch the kid.-=-"
> >
> S-"> I've had kids come to visit who, AFTER the parent has left says
> "I'm not allow
> > ed to watch TV," or "I'm not allowed to play with weapons" or whatever.
> > Fine! They can, themselves, avoid such things. But other than telling
> my
> > kids it would be nice if they did something else, I have never said "OKAY
> > THEN! TV ban for everyone!"
>
> K- Why not? Is TV sacred? I don't think TV is evil. Maybe the parent
> meant no violent power rangers stuff, or that they wanted
> them to play instead of veg.
>
> I guess that you don't want to deprive anybody, or to make your kids
> dread his visit. It's hard to know when to respect another
> parent's wishes or not.
>
>
>
> S-"> If parents want to leave their children at my house but they don't
> like my
> > rules (and I'm not talking about peanuts) they shouldn't leave them
> there."
>
> K- Maybe they aren't aware of that your rules come before theirs, or
> that there's any difference.
>
>
> S-"> If I took money to watch other people's kids then I'd negotiate.
> But there's
> > not enough money in the world to get me to lie to kids and say "You can't
> > have this because it's bad for you" if I don't believe it. There's not
> > enough money to get me to control other people's kids arbitrarily just
> > because the parents would like to do it but they want to go and do
> something
> > else for a while."
>
> K- Then you would not negotiate. Money has nothing to do with it. They
> don't owe you anything if you agreed to watch the kids
> for free. It doesn't make you better than them. If you don't like their
> restrictions on their kids, maybe you can help nurture the
> kids in other ways.
>
>
>
>
> >k-" I think that as curious
> > homeschoolers all topics can be up for discussion as they relate to
> > life, science, health, and personal empowerment through healthy
> > discussion.-=-"
> >
> S-"> I'm thinking some people might be suffering a bad reaction to the
> discussion.
> > Who decides if it's healthy?""
>
>
> K- I would imagine that if anyone is suffering a bad reaction to this
> discussion they are free to say so. That's the healthy part.
>
>
>
> S-"> It seemed to me that the tone of the suggestion was more that
> those who allow
> > their children freedom (not just of food) are neglectful, but those who
> are
> > being controlling are being responsible."
>
> K- My original post was about parents of children with allergies, not
> all parents. I think that all parents, with or without allergies,
> allow as much freedom as they think is safe. I hope like you do that
> they will base their judgments on their own children's' needs
> and abilities, not on the fears or failings of the adult.
>
>
>
> S-"> Maybe there should be an unschooling with allergies list."
>
> I think we are free to make one. I also think it is not necessary to
> push a topic off to a separate list right away. Many things are
> discussed here, even the weather. I will not keep beating this though.
> The question is out there, any replies would be interesting,
> but I will not ask it again.
>
>
> >
> > k "-=-You are free to say that you feel allergies are just an
> > excuse
> > for poor parenting and restricting freedom, and I am free to suggest
> > that they could be real for some, and for everyone to do their own
> > research.-=-"
> >
> S- "> YES but I didn't say that. So you've paraphrased me wrongly and
> addressed
> > that. It's called attacking a straw man."
>
> K- I've addressed everything else point by point, in exhausting detail
> to both of your posts. Sorry that I chucked all my feelings
> together into the straw man.
>
>
>
> >
> > K- "-=-I guess you could live in a remote hut completely free of any
> social
> > ties, or restrictions on your freedom.
> > -=-I would miss you if you lived in a hut.-=-"
> >
> S- "> How can you tell who lives in remote huts and who doesn't by e-
> mail?"
>
> K- I can tell by the content that you are not alone in a hut with a
> satellite connection. No one who writes to as many posts as you do has
> any desire to be alone.
>
>
>
> S- "> I'm not free of social ties, and I arrange for my kids to have a
> lot of
> > freedom. Free to come or go, they stay here and their friends do,
> too.Free
> > to go to school or not, they don't."
>
> K- I am curious, would you send your kids to school if they begged? How
> old are they. What have you told them about school
> that could influence their decision. I have told my kids when they
> asked how I felt about my time at school. That may have
> influenced them some, for better or worse.
>
>
> S- "Free to eat what they want, they eat an
> > amazingly balanced diet."
>
> K- Do they shop with you and help plan the meals? I think that is
> important to have freedom of choice. Do you cook or do they?
> Do you all sit down for one meal a day? We do sometimes. Do you take
> turns planning the meals, or do you just graze. We graze
> alot.
>
> S- "Free to stay up or sleep, they sleep every single
> > night."
>
> K- Again I think that could depend on the age. Mine are still too
> little to be up without me. We all sleep together though, so
> bedtime is a nice cozy thing.
>
>
> >
> > -=-S-"> Nobody's going to scrape peanut butter, or an idea, off their
> > keyboard and die. (Or if they do, the peanut butter will not have
> arrived by
> > e-mail.)
> > >
> > > Sandra"
> >
> > -=-K- Now that's just thoughtless. In an earlier post someone said that
> > they admired that you "wrote from the soul". I would like to see some
> > of that.-=-
> >
> S- "> It wasn't thoughtless in any way. If you haven't "seen some of
> that," you
> > don't know my writing well enough to decide whether it's "from the soul"
> or
> > not. And you will never know my voice well enough to be the judge of
> > whether I was sincere or thoughtful.
> >
> > Assume I'm sincere and thoughtful, and if you're too bothered by the
> writing,
> > don't read it. I don't want to stop writing because it's disturbing two
> or
> > three of several hundred people.
> >
> > Sandra"
>
> K- Agreed. We will both assume that we're sincere and thoughtful. I
> thought that you could tell by my detailed posts that I thought
> you were already.
>
> Of course you will not stop writing, I'm sure that has not been
> requested.
>
> I did expect that making a joke about people dying from peanut butter
> on the keyboard would be thought of as unfeeling before
> you sent it. That is what I meant about thoughtless. I am being too
> literal for most, but it isn't a joke really. I suppose I have no
> sense of humor for that kind of humor. It wasn't a joke about really
> dying of course, but it was an "I don't care about any whiny
> problems because they exaggerate everything" type of feeling. If that
> was not your intent, then my apologies.
>
> For all my verbosity it may be hard to imagine that I am quite new to
> this list. I have only been on for a couple of weeks I think. I
> admit that I haven't followed enough of your posts on other topics to
> know your writing well at all. All I know is what I've seen
> in your replies to my post.
>
> Every list has its personalities, occasional posters, and lurkers.
>
> I am interested in responses from others as well, but I fear they are
> not interested in this continuing saga, and I have put them
> off.
>
> And so ends the Kathy show. We now return you to your regularly
> scheduled programs, with the occasional weather report.
>
> Kathy B.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] the Kathy and Sandra Show, episode 3 "Mutual
> Respect" (hopefully)
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>
Lynda
Perfect example of the limitations of the English language and why everyone
should have to "walk a mile" before making all encompassing judgements.
Sounds like a loving family, Joy and great kids!
Lynda
should have to "walk a mile" before making all encompassing judgements.
Sounds like a loving family, Joy and great kids!
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <JMavredakis@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 5:49 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] the 'not so allergic' child....
> OK, i realize i am entering this topic late, but i have to interject. i
have
> written this over several times, and i considered not sending it but i
feel
> its importance.
> i have a wonderful 3 year old son. he is PDD which stands for Pervasive
> Developmental Delay. It is a disorder on the autism spectrum if that helps
> you visualize.
> my Niko is a wonderful, non-verbal, child. he can't tell you dairy hurts.
he
> craves milk and all dairy. he would eat it 24/7 if he was given the
chance.
> when dairy is removed from his diet, you would never even believe he was
> autistic, yet one tiny infraction and anyone can tell immediately! if he
has
> any, even that tiny bit that well meaning loved ones give on the sly, he
> will withdraw from society. he becomes a whiny, crying, bloated and gassy,
> miserable child. He tantrums (do you blame him, it hurts). this poisoned
> child!! (see below for reasoning on that one) who is looked at by others
as a
> typical *terrible* 3's child. if you did not know his dietary intervention
> you could possibly believe the transformation was willful. he is far from
> willful!! he is the most easygoing person i have ever met.
> is he allergic according to the true definition?
> no.
> do i tell everyone he is allergic?
> yes.
> for the simple reason, that when i sit and explain that dairy causes a
> chemical imbalance in him because of a lacking enzyme in his body, and it
> will cause him to "trip" as if on LSD and he will be a monster for several
> days after that one tiny cookie/chocolate/treat that person will invariabl
y
> say "so you mean he is allergic" after shaking their head at my verbiage.
and
> of course they think IM nuts.
>
> as far as what i expect others to do if taking care of him, it is not the
> easiest thing to do to send him out with his own snacks. (you would not
> believe how many things have hidden dry milk as an ingredient listed as
> something else. casin, lecithin.. etc.) but i do not expect everyone to
read
> all labels and make as many phone calls to manufacturers as i do. so he
goes
> with snacks, and I ask who is in charge to make sure he is not drinking or
> eating anything he is not given by me. sorry for this long winded reply,
but
> the statement that you gave a child milk and he had no reaction shows me
that
> you were not really listening to this Mom. once
admitted
> to someone that Niko was not really allergic, tried to explain, but she
heard
> "not allergic really" and she gave him some ice cream. he was fine for
> several hours, and she may have thought that i was a liar. however, he did
> not sleep for a week and neither did I.
> Joy
> Mom to
> Andrew 11/29/94 too smart for me to keep up with
> Anastasia 8/8/96 the princess!!
> Nicholas 6/21/98 my PDD child who loves to make me smile!!
> Michael 6/21/00 such an imp you ever saw
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Final episode on this topic for me, Sandra is of course wanted to share
> > her thoughts as well.
> >
> > I would like to be respectful, but I am not always that bright. I do
> > want her to be herself, and I hope she can see that sometimes
> > what seems like an argument, can really be two people who agree on the
> > basics, but not always the terminology. We both want
> > thoughtful caring adults to raise independent healthy children. We
> > don't like hypocrites, control freaks, or labeling people (yes
> > joke). We want our kids to learn to make their own decisions, and for
> > them to decide what's best for themselves.
> >
> > here goes. I am again the K, and Sandra will be played by the letter S.
> >
> >
> >
> > S-"> How is 'no personal experience" true? Because I don't have a
> > child with
> > > allergies?"
> >
> > K- I think that is the definition I was thinking of. Also that you have
> > not mentioned any personal (as in you personally) experience with food
> > reactions of your own. I am happy that you don't have to put up with
> > any of it and are free.
> >
> > Your 2 cents worth of experiences with liars and control freaks then
> > falls ito the category of heresay, which seemed to merely echo
> > society's claim that it is all hogwash. You granted the some are real
> > and some are not. That is true of anything, yet it makes the people in
> > the middle even more suspicious that we just make it all up. Perhaps
> > research on the subject would give you more insight into the problem. I
> > enjoyed the book "Is This Your Child" by Doris Rapp. There are others,
> > but this is a good start.
> >
> >
> > > -=-Saying something "loudly and with feeling" might be
> > > asking for help, information or support, but I don't think ridicule
> > > is a helpful path.-=-
> > >
> > S-"> I don't ridicule them,"
> >
> > Not to their face then, just on a list of 600 strangers. Of course that
> > was gratuitous and rude of me. Sorry. Not sorry enough to
> > delete it though. My bad.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >k -=-Did you lie to her and say you would follow, or had followed, her
> > > instructions? -=-
> > >
> > S-"> No. (That could only be asked by someone who doesn't know me very
> > well!)
> > > I didn't say a word."
> >
> >
> > K- That is called lying by omission. Of course I have never lied,
> > except just then. My bad, again. (pretending it's humor is no
> > excuse for my rudeness)
> >
> >
> >
> > > -=-OK too many maybes for this instance, but I say the
> > > decision was not yours to make.-=-
> > >
> > S-"> What decision? To take the mom's word that she was a liar?
> > > To keep her son for free?"
> >
> > K- Your decision to ignore her wishes because you thought she was
> > wrong.
> >
> >
> >
> > > k-=- I would be helpful for others to
> > > keep an open mind that it could be real. -=-
> > >
> > S-"> It's all real.
> > >
> > > Some allergies are more real than others."
> >
> > Then how is it all real if some of it is not? The confusion may be
> > real, the searching for answers. It's hard to remember that most
> > people are just trying their best with what they've learned so far.
> > Helping is more useful than judgment. I know that people don't
> > always want help, but saying what works for us has given other people
> > freedom to consider new possibilities.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > k"-=-Many parents have said that their allergic kids feel deprived and
> > > binge, others say their kids understand and feel good about taking
> > > care
> > > of themselves. The bingeing may have more to do with addiction than
> > > with
> > > social deprivation. -=-"
> > >
> > S-"> By this logic, any teen or adult who rejects the parental
> > restrictions when
> > > freedom hits and goes ahead and eats wheat or sugar has proven the
parent
> > > right! The child WAS an addict, proving that by not continuing the
food
> > ban
> > > for life?"
> >
> > K- What if the parent was right? What if the parent was wrong? If they
> > were right the child may bee in good physical health and really notice
> > that the binge made them ill. If they were wrong the child could learn
> > that it was not a problem after all. I guess you're upset that the
> > child lost all those years of making their own decisions. I agree with
> > that, yet I feel conflict about health and freedom. I don't think they
> > have to be mutually exclusive, yet I am sure the balance is possible.
> >
> > Are you disagreeing with the idea of addiction? I don't really know
> > what I think of addiction. I am still asking lots of
> > questions. There are so many other issues that come up when anyone
> > talks about binge foods- self control, will power, stress,
> > social pressure. They are related but how can people stop binges?
> > Someone here said that they kept some of the foods in the
> > house and that stopped the bingeing at friends' houses. So far for us,
> > we just binge here instead if I do buy the foods. I am not
> > trying to fight with anyone. I am really asking 600 people if they have
> > any other thoughts on the subject besides that it doesn't
> > happen to sensible people. This is not a food disorders list, I know
> > that. It is a list of curious people though, who don't always
> > follow society's line, and do find their own answers.
> >
> >
> > > -=-Why are the things that are the worst
> > > for us considered treats?-=-
> > >
> > S-"> I don't know that that's true. There are traditional seasonal or
> > holiday
> > > foods that are not the worst-for-us foods. It's rarity that makes a
> > treat,
> > > not bodily damage."
> >
> > I guess I am using the word treat the way I hear it used most often.
> > "Treat yourself to dessert (daily), have a treat at the store (candy),
> > buy a treat at the movies", all over the place every day, as if you're
> > not normal if you avoid that stuff. If treat only meant rarity that
> > wouldn't be a problem. It's the on going bombardment of junk foods at
> > every house,
> > halloween/easter/christmas/valentine's candy that is passed out all
> > over the place, the high fat/sugar/salt diet that is most people's
> > idea if regular food. The idea that to avoid this kind of food is
> > unnatural and bad. I'm trying to keep the kids healthy enough to
> > learn the difference. If you're constantly in a drugged state, you
> > won't notice it, but if you are fine until you have the cake and ice
> > cream, you'll learn the connection.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > S-"> Without options, a child cannot learn to "develop their own
> > choices." If the
> > > foods are highly restricted, some children will choose to be sneaky or
> > eat
> > > elsewhere. They can't choose fruit over cake if there was no cake
> > available."
> > >
> >
> > K- I guess that I don't highly restrict foods. I don't buy things that
> > are junk because they're just not food. They are treats that can
> > be had once in awhile, but not every day, every week.
> >
> > My kids turn down junk sometimes, or just have a little. Not because
> > I'm hovering over them with a whip, but because they eat
> > whatever they want most of the time. I haven't made any food evil or
> > forbidden, just I try not to buy stuff that makes us sick. Is
> > that nuts? I really am still learning about all this food stuff.
> >
> > If you or your own children have never binged, how do you know what's
> > the right thing to do about it? I don't know myself.
> >
> >
> >
> > S-"> A child can't clean his room by his own choice (as Marty did a few
> > weeks
> > > back--big reorganization) if room cleaning is mandated. If it is
> > mandated on
> > > a schedule, the child can ONLY "choose" by choosing not to cooperate.
> > >
> > > My husband's family of origin set up that kind of "choice"--the "my
way
> > or
> > > the highway" scenario. We have in full knowledge of our intent set
out
> > > never to do that to our kids."
> > >
> > >K-" -=-I think that the best person to determine what freedoms the
> > > child is ready for is the observant responsive guardian at first,
> > > then gradually as the kid gets more real experience it shifts to the
kid.
> > -=-"
> > >
> > S-"> My mother in law still tells adults just what to do and how, and
> > chortles
> > > derisively at anything except "Okay! right now! Thanks!." A notable
> > > quote--Kirby was five days or so old when she came to see him, and I
> > asked if
> > > she wanted to change his diaper (I thought it was a generous, friendly
> > thing
> > > to offer; she had been a nurse and the mother of three boys). She
came
> > back
> > > and said bruskly with no eye contact "You have to get him
circumcised."
> > >
> > > (And don't bother to ask if I lied and said I would.)"
> >
> > K- I agree that some people (nosey relatives) are not moved by
> > arguments that you are doing the right thing by your best
> > available knowledge. Sometimes I just say that (whatever) is working
> > well for us and we're happy thanks.
> >
> >
> > >
> > >k-" -=-I say the lucky parent who follows the child's true needs will
> > raise a more
> > > responsible happier person.-=-"
> > >
> > S-"> She was sure that her children truly needed to do what she said
> > without
> > > hestitation or question until they were out of her house. Guess how
> > quickly
> > > they were all out of her house? Navy, run-away, college in another
> > city."
> >
> > K- You snipped away the part where I said what I thought a few of a
> > child's true needs are. Self control, mutual respect,
> > accomplishment.
> >
> > Actually the Navy sounds like another place for someone to be expected
> > to do what they're told without hesitation or question.
> > Ironic. A very challenging career is the military. Many people excel
> > and serve with honors, and learn very useful skills.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >k" -=-Anyone who experiences real problems with certain foods is free
> > > to choose to avoid them, and to ask that any caregiver follow that
> > > choice also. If you are not comfortable with that, then the honest
thing
> > to
> > > do is to decline to watch the kid.-=-"
> > >
> > S-"> I've had kids come to visit who, AFTER the parent has left says
> > "I'm not allow
> > > ed to watch TV," or "I'm not allowed to play with weapons" or
whatever.
> > > Fine! They can, themselves, avoid such things. But other than
telling
> > my
> > > kids it would be nice if they did something else, I have never said
"OKAY
> > > THEN! TV ban for everyone!"
> >
> > K- Why not? Is TV sacred? I don't think TV is evil. Maybe the parent
> > meant no violent power rangers stuff, or that they wanted
> > them to play instead of veg.
> >
> > I guess that you don't want to deprive anybody, or to make your kids
> > dread his visit. It's hard to know when to respect another
> > parent's wishes or not.
> >
> >
> >
> > S-"> If parents want to leave their children at my house but they don't
> > like my
> > > rules (and I'm not talking about peanuts) they shouldn't leave them
> > there."
> >
> > K- Maybe they aren't aware of that your rules come before theirs, or
> > that there's any difference.
> >
> >
> > S-"> If I took money to watch other people's kids then I'd negotiate.
> > But there's
> > > not enough money in the world to get me to lie to kids and say "You
can't
> > > have this because it's bad for you" if I don't believe it. There's
not
> > > enough money to get me to control other people's kids arbitrarily just
> > > because the parents would like to do it but they want to go and do
> > something
> > > else for a while."
> >
> > K- Then you would not negotiate. Money has nothing to do with it. They
> > don't owe you anything if you agreed to watch the kids
> > for free. It doesn't make you better than them. If you don't like their
> > restrictions on their kids, maybe you can help nurture the
> > kids in other ways.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >k-" I think that as curious
> > > homeschoolers all topics can be up for discussion as they relate to
> > > life, science, health, and personal empowerment through healthy
> > > discussion.-=-"
> > >
> > S-"> I'm thinking some people might be suffering a bad reaction to the
> > discussion.
> > > Who decides if it's healthy?""
> >
> >
> > K- I would imagine that if anyone is suffering a bad reaction to this
> > discussion they are free to say so. That's the healthy part.
> >
> >
> >
> > S-"> It seemed to me that the tone of the suggestion was more that
> > those who allow
> > > their children freedom (not just of food) are neglectful, but those
who
> > are
> > > being controlling are being responsible."
> >
> > K- My original post was about parents of children with allergies, not
> > all parents. I think that all parents, with or without allergies,
> > allow as much freedom as they think is safe. I hope like you do that
> > they will base their judgments on their own children's' needs
> > and abilities, not on the fears or failings of the adult.
> >
> >
> >
> > S-"> Maybe there should be an unschooling with allergies list."
> >
> > I think we are free to make one. I also think it is not necessary to
> > push a topic off to a separate list right away. Many things are
> > discussed here, even the weather. I will not keep beating this though.
> > The question is out there, any replies would be interesting,
> > but I will not ask it again.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > k "-=-You are free to say that you feel allergies are just an
> > > excuse
> > > for poor parenting and restricting freedom, and I am free to suggest
> > > that they could be real for some, and for everyone to do their own
> > > research.-=-"
> > >
> > S- "> YES but I didn't say that. So you've paraphrased me wrongly and
> > addressed
> > > that. It's called attacking a straw man."
> >
> > K- I've addressed everything else point by point, in exhausting detail
> > to both of your posts. Sorry that I chucked all my feelings
> > together into the straw man.
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > > K- "-=-I guess you could live in a remote hut completely free of any
> > social
> > > ties, or restrictions on your freedom.
> > > -=-I would miss you if you lived in a hut.-=-"
> > >
> > S- "> How can you tell who lives in remote huts and who doesn't by e-
> > mail?"
> >
> > K- I can tell by the content that you are not alone in a hut with a
> > satellite connection. No one who writes to as many posts as you do has
> > any desire to be alone.
> >
> >
> >
> > S- "> I'm not free of social ties, and I arrange for my kids to have a
> > lot of
> > > freedom. Free to come or go, they stay here and their friends do,
> > too.Free
> > > to go to school or not, they don't."
> >
> > K- I am curious, would you send your kids to school if they begged? How
> > old are they. What have you told them about school
> > that could influence their decision. I have told my kids when they
> > asked how I felt about my time at school. That may have
> > influenced them some, for better or worse.
> >
> >
> > S- "Free to eat what they want, they eat an
> > > amazingly balanced diet."
> >
> > K- Do they shop with you and help plan the meals? I think that is
> > important to have freedom of choice. Do you cook or do they?
> > Do you all sit down for one meal a day? We do sometimes. Do you take
> > turns planning the meals, or do you just graze. We graze
> > alot.
> >
> > S- "Free to stay up or sleep, they sleep every single
> > > night."
> >
> > K- Again I think that could depend on the age. Mine are still too
> > little to be up without me. We all sleep together though, so
> > bedtime is a nice cozy thing.
> >
> >
> > >
> > > -=-S-"> Nobody's going to scrape peanut butter, or an idea, off their
> > > keyboard and die. (Or if they do, the peanut butter will not have
> > arrived by
> > > e-mail.)
> > > >
> > > > Sandra"
> > >
> > > -=-K- Now that's just thoughtless. In an earlier post someone said
that
> > > they admired that you "wrote from the soul". I would like to see some
> > > of that.-=-
> > >
> > S- "> It wasn't thoughtless in any way. If you haven't "seen some of
> > that," you
> > > don't know my writing well enough to decide whether it's "from the
soul"
> > or
> > > not. And you will never know my voice well enough to be the judge of
> > > whether I was sincere or thoughtful.
> > >
> > > Assume I'm sincere and thoughtful, and if you're too bothered by the
> > writing,
> > > don't read it. I don't want to stop writing because it's disturbing
two
> > or
> > > three of several hundred people.
> > >
> > > Sandra"
> >
> > K- Agreed. We will both assume that we're sincere and thoughtful. I
> > thought that you could tell by my detailed posts that I thought
> > you were already.
> >
> > Of course you will not stop writing, I'm sure that has not been
> > requested.
> >
> > I did expect that making a joke about people dying from peanut butter
> > on the keyboard would be thought of as unfeeling before
> > you sent it. That is what I meant about thoughtless. I am being too
> > literal for most, but it isn't a joke really. I suppose I have no
> > sense of humor for that kind of humor. It wasn't a joke about really
> > dying of course, but it was an "I don't care about any whiny
> > problems because they exaggerate everything" type of feeling. If that
> > was not your intent, then my apologies.
> >
> > For all my verbosity it may be hard to imagine that I am quite new to
> > this list. I have only been on for a couple of weeks I think. I
> > admit that I haven't followed enough of your posts on other topics to
> > know your writing well at all. All I know is what I've seen
> > in your replies to my post.
> >
> > Every list has its personalities, occasional posters, and lurkers.
> >
> > I am interested in responses from others as well, but I fear they are
> > not interested in this continuing saga, and I have put them
> > off.
> >
> > And so ends the Kathy show. We now return you to your regularly
> > scheduled programs, with the occasional weather report.
> >
> > Kathy B.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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> > Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] the Kathy and Sandra Show, episode 3
"Mutual
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