Joseph Fuerst

Chris:
I like the way you articulate this issue. I am "on the same page" (maybe
that explains my liking it?) I don't think my children will automatically
develop healthy habits (e.g., brushing teeth). I, too, am working to
establish routines and parameters within which they can grow and develop
into them"selves".

Susan

> >
> > The biggest problem in discussing the idea of control in general
> > is that most people begin with the socially implanted idea that
> > control is the norm. It's what children need. So someone
> > suggesting "I have come to the conclusion that control works for
> > my kids," is really a reinforment of the social norm.
> >
> > The idea many are working towards is to throw away that idea and
> > begin with a new base of operations, a new norm: the idea that
> > control isn't necessary, that children will self-regulate when
> > given the freedom to do so.
>
> Joyce,
>
> I firmly respect your opinion here BUT.....
>
> I've considered myself an unschooler for 11 years now, ever since I
> first read John Holt and decided my oldest was not ever attending
> traditional school.
>
> Over the years, I have had this idea forced on me on nearly every
> unschooling list I've been on. I've been called a control freak
> because I expect my children to make their beds and brush their
> teeth. My parenting has been attacked and I've been told I certainly
> must not bea "real unschooler". Now I'm not saying that you are doing
> this, Joyce. I believe I understand the message of your post - With
> ideas about how to force and control children so readily available,
> it is important to put other messages out there (am I hearing you
> correctly?). I just want to voice an opinion that says please don't
> narrowly define unschooling for me. For me, I know that experience
> plays a big part in life. For me, my experience is SOMETIMES more
> important, more vital than the opinions of my children. But I share
> it with them rather than lay down the law. This has been a life long
> effort of building a relationship and trust where my word means
> something to them. I do know more than they do in many areas but my
> trust in them bleeds through and affects both of our decisions. BUt
> if push came to shove, I am the parent and the authority in the
> household. I've been known to force or manipulate to get kids off a
> plateu or to move them beyond a comfort level they've stayed at a bit
> too long. I've pushed them into activities that exposed them to ideas
> they thought they wouldn't like because I knew/felt there was value
> (and most of the time I was right). I consider these nudges to be
> parenting responsibilities. I've helped my kids get over fears and
> opened their eyes to differences of opinion.
>
> For some, I know I don't live up to the title "unschooler". But for
> me, it is a term still evolving and not one I'm always comfortable
> with. Life-learner feels so much better. And if these nudges and
> authority keep me from the select group, so be it.
>
> I hope this doesn't feel attacking, Joyce. I'm not wanting to oppose
> your views but you reminded me of some previous situations in the
> unschooling community that I wanted to address.
>
> in peace,
>
> Chris O'Connor
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:31:18 -0600
> From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1594
>
> <<quite willing to lie about the food our daughter eats>>
>
> Oh yuck. Then hypothetically :), I would have to say these "friends"
> would not be in a situation to be responsible for my daughter again.
>
> Again hypothetically, isn't a 7yo old enough to monitor the ingredients of
> their own food? My youngest had serious allergies beginning as a newborn,
> side of face swelling up, skin sloughing off, etc.. We were able to
narrow
> it down to insect bites, milk and soy. We discussed the situation with
the
> kids and we all agreed to stop bringing food with those ingredients into
the
> house. Even my 5yo, who at 8yo still struggles to read, would scour the
> ingredient lists for M-I-L-K or S-O-Y. He would readily put things he
liked
> back on the shelf because he was concerned about his sister's safety.
> Wouldn't this hypothetical child be interested in avoiding life
threatening
> situations for herself?
>
> Same son, now 8yo, voluntarily avoids chocolate because he feels it upsets
> his stomach. He made the connection completely on his own.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:45:34 -0600
> From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1595
>
> <<and don't see things happening on the list in the same way some others
may
> see them>>
>
> I agree. And just because something doesn't look like a flame to me,
> doesn't mean that it isn't....and just because something does look like a
> flame to someone else, doesn't mean it is. Perhaps that is why we
shouldn't
> take the comments of complete strangers so much to heart.
>
> And yes, I was here through the entire Bridget "introduction". And while
I
> didn't post my thoughts, they were very much in line with Sandra's
> responses....however, now that the fur has settled it is easier to see
more
> of what Bridget was attempting to relay. However, I do notice that once
> again, (as we do on a very regular basis) we have returned to the
discussion
> of Bridgets's perceived bashing.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 20:00:39 -0800
> From: Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...>
> Subject: Re: Families, Thanksgiving
>
>
>
> ----------
> >From: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1597
> >Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001, 6:55 PM
> >
>
> > Thanksgiving is coming. And while I love most of my relatives, there is
> > always potential for the big "we-think-you-shouldn't-homeschool" fight
at
> > any family gathering. (Or long car trip with my brother.)
> >
> > I don't take criticism really well -- especially the heavy-handed kind
that
> > starts with "your are ruining this child!!!!"
> >
> > Anybody got any happy thoughts for rising above this or just slogging
> > through? I'm going to three and a half family gatherings over the long
> > weekend, and it's really more than I can sail through serenely.
>
> Humor always works for me, and village-idiot-smiling-agreement.
>
> Relative: You're ruining this child! What were you thinking to start
> HOMESCHOOLING?!
>
> Me (grinning like a loon): You're right, I'm such a moron. I'm not fit to
> raise a chicken. I should put the kids up for adoption immediately. I
should
> be deported back to the planet I came from. Is there a school someplace
near
> here? Pull over so I can enroll them.
>
> Etc.
>
> They can only argue if you do. I try not to waste energy on people looking
> to scuffle -- sincere interest, no problem, I'll talk about homeschooling
> all day even if they disagree with me in the end. But looking for trouble,
> they can look somewhere else because I turn into Pam, Grinning Chimp. Let
> 'em try to fight with that. :)
>
> Pam, GC
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:10:47 -0600
> From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1596
>
> <<that television viewing is always benign>>
>
> Of course it isn't always benign. But I don't think that is the issue. I
> think the issue is who decides when it has become malignant? How is that
> decision arrived at?
>
> I have a very sensitive 10yo dd. "Matlock" scares her. When something is
> coming on that I think might cause her problems, I say "This program is
> about such and such. It might be too scary for you." Then she decides if
> she wants to watch it or not.
>
> She went through several months of sitting on her behind watching
television
> reruns all day. She was crabby and tired all the time. I pointed out
that
> I thought she would feel better if she got her blood flowing, got outside.
> SHE decided that she would give it a try and SHE decided that she agreed
> with me.
>
> Was television viewing benign in those situations? No. But Adriane was
> able to found that out for herself and I feel that I have to trust her to
> find those things out.
>
> Other times, I have been dead wrong with my suggestions. We have fire
ants
> here and little kids just love to stir the mounds and watch the ants
> scatter. Marsie, then 3yo, loved messing with the ants. I told her to be
> careful how she played because when the ants bite it really hurts and
might
> make her cry. She blew me off and has spent the 2 years since then
happily
> picking up fire ants and letting them crawl all over her without ever
> getting bit. We call it "the force" (It is either that or the ants can
tell
> she's gonna taste bad). She has learned a tremendous amount about insects
> and trusting her own decisions. She would not have learned either if I
was
> a "good" mom and kept her out of the ant piles.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:14:25 EST
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Food, allergies, and such
>
> In a message dated 11/18/01 1:27:48 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> KathrynJB@... writes:
>
>
> > That our right to bring peanut butter to school is more important than
> > having Jessie and Mark there? Call me crazy, but I think people are
more
> > important than food preferences. Altering something this simple to show
> > love, caring, and respect for another person seems pretty basic.
> >
>
> If they chose to marry Jessie or Mark, or to be roommates, then it's love,
> caring and respect. If they go to a school because of compulsory
attendance
> laws and happen to be in the same district, that's not quite the same
> situation. Maybe another child only will eat peanut butter for lunch and
> really wants it, or is hypoglycemic and vegetarian and peanuts are a
staple.
>
> Making the 400 (or however many) kids feel guilty for the medical problems
of
> the two doesn't seem equitable to me.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 04:15:04 -0000
> From: chrisoco@...
> Subject: Clonlara Question (was Re: Help - Pagan Flavored Science/Health
Curriculum)
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Tami Labig-Duquette"
> <labigduquette@h...> wrote:
>
> > Also, clonara is anice enviroment for text book type learning.
> > http://www.clonara.com
> > Indiana Tami
>
> Tami? Am I understanding you as saying that Clonlara is a good place
> for textbook type learning? That has not been my experience or
> understanding, that's why I ask. I've always known Clonlara to
> support whatever approach you wish to use, unschooling or something
> more traditional. Do you see it differently? Or am I misunderstanding
> you?
>
> in peace,
>
> Chris O'Connor
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:25:51 EST
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: A proposition...to the moderator and all...
>
> In a message dated 11/18/01 4:11:42 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> ecsamhill@... writes:
>
>
> > I'm going to three and a half family gatherings over the long
> > weekend, and it's really more than I can sail through serenely.
> >
>
> Honestly, I would enlist an ally at each site who is to head the
conversation
> off and away, and if it does go that direction (which it might not), have
> them prepared to take offender-person off and deliver the ultimatum that
it
> has to stop.
>
> If it comes from you, it might seem just plain defensive, but if you have
a
> brother in law or cousin or someone who can deliver the "back off"
> dispassionately, you could last longer.
>
> Or if there's time, you might e-mail each hostess or suspect (or send a
note)
> and say flat out that if they plan to criticize your parenting you'd
rather
> go to Thanskgiving with friends. You could say you'd like to spend the
day
> being thankful intead of resentful, and so you need their assurance that
it's
> a safe place for you to come.
>
> How can you digest a big meal like that if you're all tied up waiting for
the
> axe to drop?
>
> I feel really sorry for those families in which the other relatives
haven't
> yet seen how cool the homeschooled kids are. I know there are problems; I
> had some with my brother-in-law last time he was in town (although it was
me
> prodding him about being too controlling and inflexible with his poor
> in-school teen this time). Things are never just right.
>
> Good luck, however it goes!
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:33:25 -0700
> From: Diane <cen46624@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Families, Thanksgiving
>
> > Relative: You're ruining this child! What were you thinking to start
> > HOMESCHOOLING?!
>
> My response (developed early) is, "Thank you."
>
> "You can't raise them that way!"
> "Thank you."
>
> "What are you thinking of, doing such a dumb thing?!"
> "Oh, really? Thank you."
>
> :-) Diane in AZ
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:28:49 -0800
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: A proposition...to the moderator and all...
>
>
> >
> >
> >Thanksgiving is coming. And while I love most of my relatives, there is
> >always potential for the big "we-think-you-shouldn't-homeschool" fight at
> >any family gathering. (Or long car trip with my brother.)
>
> "You raised (or are raising, or will raise) your children the best way you
> knew how, with the information you had available to you. I have different
> information available to me which makes me choose a different way. (for
> your parents) How can you possibly think that a child of yours would
raise
> his or her children any way but the way they thought was the very best?"
>
> caution: untested - made up on the spot
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
> **************************************************************************
> It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. -
Janice
> Levy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:35:06 -0800
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Family Gatherings and Happy thoughts
>
>
> >
> >They have both chosen their own clothes for years and usually look
> >like refugees from a poorly funded Salvation Army. I don;t
> >care 'cause I usually do too. Today, in the same clothes they've
> >always worn, they suddenly look like they are two unique and
> >interesting individuals who like to dress their personalities. They
> >both were standing straight and tall and interacting with the world
> >around them. I don't know how many teens you all see regularly but
> >if they are anything like the high schoolers around here you will
> >recognize that as a great thing. No pouting at the wait. No whining
> >that they wanted anything. Just a bit of conversation about the
> >movie and what was left out.
>
> Sound like nice kids. I've thoroughly enjoyed getting to know my daughter
> better when she became a mother. My step-daughter vaccilates between
> refugee and dressing her personaility, with the percentage way over on the
> personality side by now.
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
> **************************************************************************
> It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. -
Janice
> Levy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:40:41 -0500
> From: "Tami Labig-Duquette" <labigduquette@...>
> Subject: Re: Clonlara Question (was Re: Help - Pagan Flavored
Science/Health Curriculum)
>
> Its a misunderstanding :) I didnt mean it that way. I explained in an
> earlier post, but what I meant was.....If one were to choose textbook type
> learning (for whatever reason) then clonara would be the way to go. (IMO).
> Indiana Tami
>
> "You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
> ~Ghandi
> Networking for Central Indiana unschoolers :)
> http://communities.msn.com/ChildLedLearninginIndiana
> Children Leading the Way!
> http://[email protected]
> Fun site for your kids or even you :)
> http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=angel1bunny
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: chrisoco@...
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Clonlara Question (was Re: Help - Pagan
> Flavored Science/Health Curriculum)
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 04:15:04 -0000
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Tami Labig-Duquette"
> <labigduquette@h...> wrote:
>
> > Also, clonara is anice enviroment for text book type learning.
> > http://www.clonara.com
> > Indiana Tami
>
> Tami? Am I understanding you as saying that Clonlara is a good place
> for textbook type learning? That has not been my experience or
> understanding, that's why I ask. I've always known Clonlara to
> support whatever approach you wish to use, unschooling or something
> more traditional. Do you see it differently? Or am I misunderstanding
> you?
>
> in peace,
>
> Chris O'Connor
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:00:16 -0000
> From: chrisoco@...
> Subject: Re: Whether Sandra is right or wrong...
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Dan Conine" <dconine@d...> wrote:
> > I've known people who could egg on a spirited argument in the
> > armpits of the world, and walk away with everyone laughing. I
> > don't think Sandra does it on purpose. There isn't enough
> > scientific method to her responses. Hers are all from her soul,
> > and the errors made at times add to the humanity of it all.
>
> So true, Dan. I had the pleasure of meeting Sandra a little over 4
> years ago when she agreed to speak at a conference here in Columbus.
> As a harried conference coordinator, I barely got time to say hello,
> but the response from our attendees said it all. Sandra was very well
> received and she spoke to the heart of the matter. Yes, she
> challenged people.. made them rethink what they accepted as given
> realities. But isn't that a lot of what home education and
> specifically unschooling is all about?
>
> One thing I've come to learn is that the most passionate people are
> often the ones who are the most difficult to get along with. But
> passionate people change the world and I'm thankful for the Sandra's
> in it.
>
> BTW, Sandra... the "I Hate Chris" t-shirts are big sellers around
> here. I'll make a sample for you. :-P
>
> Chris O'Connor
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:22:43 -0000
> From: chrisoco@...
> Subject: Re: Help - Pagan Flavored Science/Health Curriculum
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Tami Labig-Duquette"
> <labigduquette@h...> wrote:
>
> > Wow :) I dont think I meant it quite that way, I meant if you
> > have to have the books (textbook/workbooks), then I feel (IMO)
> > that clonara is the way I would go. I am good at confusing
> > anyone and everyone :) ask around.
> > Sorry about that :)
>
> Thanks for clarifying, Tami. Sorry to reply before I had gotten all
> the way through my e-mails. If I "hear" you correctly, you are saying
> that Clonlara might be able to help the Dad who feels the need for
> textbooks and documentation? I can see that as they would
> apply "credit" for the work and give it the "authority" he seems to
> need. And in the meantime, Mom can still feel that she is following a
> more relaxed atmosphere while getting back up from an "authority".
>
> Having such a supportive, relaxed husband is such a blessing.... I'll
> have to remember to thank mine.
>
> in peace,
>
> Chris O'Connor
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:04:28 -0800
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> Subject: Re: speaking of reactions to food, and reactions to reactions
>
> For those who have been looking for an option when it comes to soft drinks
> and can't or don't choose to go the refined sugar or chemical way,
Hanson's
> now has a dye-free diet soda out that is made with stefia (is that spelled
> right?). Voila, no chemicals (aspertame or sacharine), no red, yellow or
> blue dyes, no sodium, no preservatives AND it has passed the kidlet taste
> test!
>
> Youngest discovered it this evening when we were deciding what to buy for
> our "home theater (vcr and rented movies <g>).
>
> Lynda
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:30:53 -0800
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1593
>
> Heart attacks, obesity, TMJ, miscarriages, infertility, the list goes on.
> All can be. Are they usually or even 50% of the time, I don't think so.
I
> believe the old excuse "it's all my parents' fault" has been over used and
> abused. IMHO it is all part of the blame game that is so popular--I was
> abused, I'm a minority, the bullies picked on me, I had a domineering
> mother, I didn't have a father figure, I ate a twinkie, etc., etc., etc.
>
> It's about the only thing I agree with ol' Dr. Phil on. Too many excuses
> and too many people not willing to accept responsibility for their own
> lives.
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Julie Stauffer <jnjstau@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 7:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1593
>
>
> > <<Give me an example or two of a medical problem caused by a control
> issue>>
> >
> > Ulcers, constipation, headaches, anorexia nervosa, bulimia, depression,
> > generalized pain disorder, etc..
> >
> > All of these and many more CAN be caused by situational factors, such as
> > emotional stress. Are they always caused by psychological factors? No.
> Can
> > they be? Yes.
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:49:27 -0700
> From: ddzimlew@...
> Subject: Re: How's the weather?
>
>
> > > Really, the best way to stop a flame war is to change the subject.
> > How's
> > > the weather where you are?
>
> It began raining here Saturday evening, and though the rain had stopped
> by midnight, the sky was full of clouds. We knew there wasn't much
> chance of seeing the meteor shower. We laid on a tarp, wrapped in
> sleeping bags, my son's little warm hand in mine. While we were hoping
> for the clouds to break, we began to hear the geese. They came over our
> little town in waves, their bellies shimmering like silver ribbons
> against the grey sky. The sound was indescribable. I can't begin to
> imagine how many there were. When our hot chocolate ran out and my son
> fell asleep, we carried him inside. We went out again about two o'clock
> and still the geese were coming. We watched and listened for two more
> hours, before their numbers seemed to dwindle. It was all so utterly
> magical. Not one shooting star but thousands of shining geese, and they
> sang to us too.
>
> Deb L
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Joseph Fuerst

Julie,
Actually, things have gotten much better in the past 4-5 months...dd has
become more able to be responsible and trustworthy about avoiding foods she
needs to. From about age 4 until recently, our dd was more likely to tell
us what we wanted to hear rather than what she really ate. I believe this
was reinforced by the aforementioned parents she was with; since I tried to
remind them of her requirements each time.

It was really tough for awhile.....wanting her to spend time with her
friend, but not trusting the parents! We tried limiting play times to
after she'd eaten her....but you know how kids eat...some days just grazing,
others just picking.

And it was difficult to finally have dd "get" the importance of this...after
all, it wasn't a clear connection between food consumtion and the physical
problem.

Anyhow, we still limit her exposure to that family. And when she goes, we
talk about what she might pick from a menu. If they're eating at home, I'm
not too shy to ask the menu, and willing to supplement. It's also worked
well to meet them places and pack-a-lunch.
Susan

> <<quite willing to lie about the food our daughter eats>>
>
> Oh yuck. Then hypothetically :), I would have to say these "friends"
> would not be in a situation to be responsible for my daughter again.
>
> Again hypothetically, isn't a 7yo old enough to monitor the ingredients of
> their own food? My youngest had serious allergies beginning as a newborn,
> side of face swelling up, skin sloughing off, etc.. We were able to
narrow
> it down to insect bites, milk and soy. We discussed the situation with
the
> kids and we all agreed to stop bringing food with those ingredients into
the
> house. Even my 5yo, who at 8yo still struggles to read, would scour the
> ingredient lists for M-I-L-K or S-O-Y. He would readily put things he
liked
> back on the shelf because he was concerned about his sister's safety.
> Wouldn't this hypothetical child be interested in avoiding life
threatening
> situations for herself?
>
> Same son, now 8yo, voluntarily avoids chocolate because he feels it upsets
> his stomach. He made the connection completely on his own.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:45:34 -0600
> From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1595
>
> <<and don't see things happening on the list in the same way some others
may
> see them>>
>
> I agree. And just because something doesn't look like a flame to me,
> doesn't mean that it isn't....and just because something does look like a
> flame to someone else, doesn't mean it is. Perhaps that is why we
shouldn't
> take the comments of complete strangers so much to heart.
>
> And yes, I was here through the entire Bridget "introduction". And while
I
> didn't post my thoughts, they were very much in line with Sandra's
> responses....however, now that the fur has settled it is easier to see
more
> of what Bridget was attempting to relay. However, I do notice that once
> again, (as we do on a very regular basis) we have returned to the
discussion
> of Bridgets's perceived bashing.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 20:00:39 -0800
> From: Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...>
> Subject: Re: Families, Thanksgiving
>
>
>
> ----------
> >From: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1597
> >Date: Sun, Nov 18, 2001, 6:55 PM
> >
>
> > Thanksgiving is coming. And while I love most of my relatives, there is
> > always potential for the big "we-think-you-shouldn't-homeschool" fight
at
> > any family gathering. (Or long car trip with my brother.)
> >
> > I don't take criticism really well -- especially the heavy-handed kind
that
> > starts with "your are ruining this child!!!!"
> >
> > Anybody got any happy thoughts for rising above this or just slogging
> > through? I'm going to three and a half family gatherings over the long
> > weekend, and it's really more than I can sail through serenely.
>
> Humor always works for me, and village-idiot-smiling-agreement.
>
> Relative: You're ruining this child! What were you thinking to start
> HOMESCHOOLING?!
>
> Me (grinning like a loon): You're right, I'm such a moron. I'm not fit to
> raise a chicken. I should put the kids up for adoption immediately. I
should
> be deported back to the planet I came from. Is there a school someplace
near
> here? Pull over so I can enroll them.
>
> Etc.
>
> They can only argue if you do. I try not to waste energy on people looking
> to scuffle -- sincere interest, no problem, I'll talk about homeschooling
> all day even if they disagree with me in the end. But looking for trouble,
> they can look somewhere else because I turn into Pam, Grinning Chimp. Let
> 'em try to fight with that. :)
>
> Pam, GC
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:10:47 -0600
> From: "Julie Stauffer" <jnjstau@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1596
>
> <<that television viewing is always benign>>
>
> Of course it isn't always benign. But I don't think that is the issue. I
> think the issue is who decides when it has become malignant? How is that
> decision arrived at?
>
> I have a very sensitive 10yo dd. "Matlock" scares her. When something is
> coming on that I think might cause her problems, I say "This program is
> about such and such. It might be too scary for you." Then she decides if
> she wants to watch it or not.
>
> She went through several months of sitting on her behind watching
television
> reruns all day. She was crabby and tired all the time. I pointed out
that
> I thought she would feel better if she got her blood flowing, got outside.
> SHE decided that she would give it a try and SHE decided that she agreed
> with me.
>
> Was television viewing benign in those situations? No. But Adriane was
> able to found that out for herself and I feel that I have to trust her to
> find those things out.
>
> Other times, I have been dead wrong with my suggestions. We have fire
ants
> here and little kids just love to stir the mounds and watch the ants
> scatter. Marsie, then 3yo, loved messing with the ants. I told her to be
> careful how she played because when the ants bite it really hurts and
might
> make her cry. She blew me off and has spent the 2 years since then
happily
> picking up fire ants and letting them crawl all over her without ever
> getting bit. We call it "the force" (It is either that or the ants can
tell
> she's gonna taste bad). She has learned a tremendous amount about insects
> and trusting her own decisions. She would not have learned either if I
was
> a "good" mom and kept her out of the ant piles.
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:14:25 EST
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: Re: Food, allergies, and such
>
> In a message dated 11/18/01 1:27:48 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> KathrynJB@... writes:
>
>
> > That our right to bring peanut butter to school is more important than
> > having Jessie and Mark there? Call me crazy, but I think people are
more
> > important than food preferences. Altering something this simple to show
> > love, caring, and respect for another person seems pretty basic.
> >
>
> If they chose to marry Jessie or Mark, or to be roommates, then it's love,
> caring and respect. If they go to a school because of compulsory
attendance
> laws and happen to be in the same district, that's not quite the same
> situation. Maybe another child only will eat peanut butter for lunch and
> really wants it, or is hypoglycemic and vegetarian and peanuts are a
staple.
>
> Making the 400 (or however many) kids feel guilty for the medical problems
of
> the two doesn't seem equitable to me.
>
> Sandra
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 04:15:04 -0000
> From: chrisoco@...
> Subject: Clonlara Question (was Re: Help - Pagan Flavored Science/Health
Curriculum)
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Tami Labig-Duquette"
> <labigduquette@h...> wrote:
>
> > Also, clonara is anice enviroment for text book type learning.
> > http://www.clonara.com
> > Indiana Tami
>
> Tami? Am I understanding you as saying that Clonlara is a good place
> for textbook type learning? That has not been my experience or
> understanding, that's why I ask. I've always known Clonlara to
> support whatever approach you wish to use, unschooling or something
> more traditional. Do you see it differently? Or am I misunderstanding
> you?
>
> in peace,
>
> Chris O'Connor
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 15
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:25:51 EST
> From: SandraDodd@...
> Subject: Re: Re: A proposition...to the moderator and all...
>
> In a message dated 11/18/01 4:11:42 PM Mountain Standard Time,
> ecsamhill@... writes:
>
>
> > I'm going to three and a half family gatherings over the long
> > weekend, and it's really more than I can sail through serenely.
> >
>
> Honestly, I would enlist an ally at each site who is to head the
conversation
> off and away, and if it does go that direction (which it might not), have
> them prepared to take offender-person off and deliver the ultimatum that
it
> has to stop.
>
> If it comes from you, it might seem just plain defensive, but if you have
a
> brother in law or cousin or someone who can deliver the "back off"
> dispassionately, you could last longer.
>
> Or if there's time, you might e-mail each hostess or suspect (or send a
note)
> and say flat out that if they plan to criticize your parenting you'd
rather
> go to Thanskgiving with friends. You could say you'd like to spend the
day
> being thankful intead of resentful, and so you need their assurance that
it's
> a safe place for you to come.
>
> How can you digest a big meal like that if you're all tied up waiting for
the
> axe to drop?
>
> I feel really sorry for those families in which the other relatives
haven't
> yet seen how cool the homeschooled kids are. I know there are problems; I
> had some with my brother-in-law last time he was in town (although it was
me
> prodding him about being too controlling and inflexible with his poor
> in-school teen this time). Things are never just right.
>
> Good luck, however it goes!
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 16
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 21:33:25 -0700
> From: Diane <cen46624@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Families, Thanksgiving
>
> > Relative: You're ruining this child! What were you thinking to start
> > HOMESCHOOLING?!
>
> My response (developed early) is, "Thank you."
>
> "You can't raise them that way!"
> "Thank you."
>
> "What are you thinking of, doing such a dumb thing?!"
> "Oh, really? Thank you."
>
> :-) Diane in AZ
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 17
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:28:49 -0800
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: A proposition...to the moderator and all...
>
>
> >
> >
> >Thanksgiving is coming. And while I love most of my relatives, there is
> >always potential for the big "we-think-you-shouldn't-homeschool" fight at
> >any family gathering. (Or long car trip with my brother.)
>
> "You raised (or are raising, or will raise) your children the best way you
> knew how, with the information you had available to you. I have different
> information available to me which makes me choose a different way. (for
> your parents) How can you possibly think that a child of yours would
raise
> his or her children any way but the way they thought was the very best?"
>
> caution: untested - made up on the spot
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
> **************************************************************************
> It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. -
Janice
> Levy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 18
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 16:35:06 -0800
> From: Tia Leschke <leschke@...>
> Subject: Re: Re: Family Gatherings and Happy thoughts
>
>
> >
> >They have both chosen their own clothes for years and usually look
> >like refugees from a poorly funded Salvation Army. I don;t
> >care 'cause I usually do too. Today, in the same clothes they've
> >always worn, they suddenly look like they are two unique and
> >interesting individuals who like to dress their personalities. They
> >both were standing straight and tall and interacting with the world
> >around them. I don't know how many teens you all see regularly but
> >if they are anything like the high schoolers around here you will
> >recognize that as a great thing. No pouting at the wait. No whining
> >that they wanted anything. Just a bit of conversation about the
> >movie and what was left out.
>
> Sound like nice kids. I've thoroughly enjoyed getting to know my daughter
> better when she became a mother. My step-daughter vaccilates between
> refugee and dressing her personaility, with the percentage way over on the
> personality side by now.
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
> **************************************************************************
> It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. -
Janice
> Levy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 19
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:40:41 -0500
> From: "Tami Labig-Duquette" <labigduquette@...>
> Subject: Re: Clonlara Question (was Re: Help - Pagan Flavored
Science/Health Curriculum)
>
> Its a misunderstanding :) I didnt mean it that way. I explained in an
> earlier post, but what I meant was.....If one were to choose textbook type
> learning (for whatever reason) then clonara would be the way to go. (IMO).
> Indiana Tami
>
> "You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
> ~Ghandi
> Networking for Central Indiana unschoolers :)
> http://communities.msn.com/ChildLedLearninginIndiana
> Children Leading the Way!
> http://[email protected]
> Fun site for your kids or even you :)
> http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=angel1bunny
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: chrisoco@...
> Reply-To: [email protected]
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Clonlara Question (was Re: Help - Pagan
> Flavored Science/Health Curriculum)
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 04:15:04 -0000
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Tami Labig-Duquette"
> <labigduquette@h...> wrote:
>
> > Also, clonara is anice enviroment for text book type learning.
> > http://www.clonara.com
> > Indiana Tami
>
> Tami? Am I understanding you as saying that Clonlara is a good place
> for textbook type learning? That has not been my experience or
> understanding, that's why I ask. I've always known Clonlara to
> support whatever approach you wish to use, unschooling or something
> more traditional. Do you see it differently? Or am I misunderstanding
> you?
>
> in peace,
>
> Chris O'Connor
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 20
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:00:16 -0000
> From: chrisoco@...
> Subject: Re: Whether Sandra is right or wrong...
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Dan Conine" <dconine@d...> wrote:
> > I've known people who could egg on a spirited argument in the
> > armpits of the world, and walk away with everyone laughing. I
> > don't think Sandra does it on purpose. There isn't enough
> > scientific method to her responses. Hers are all from her soul,
> > and the errors made at times add to the humanity of it all.
>
> So true, Dan. I had the pleasure of meeting Sandra a little over 4
> years ago when she agreed to speak at a conference here in Columbus.
> As a harried conference coordinator, I barely got time to say hello,
> but the response from our attendees said it all. Sandra was very well
> received and she spoke to the heart of the matter. Yes, she
> challenged people.. made them rethink what they accepted as given
> realities. But isn't that a lot of what home education and
> specifically unschooling is all about?
>
> One thing I've come to learn is that the most passionate people are
> often the ones who are the most difficult to get along with. But
> passionate people change the world and I'm thankful for the Sandra's
> in it.
>
> BTW, Sandra... the "I Hate Chris" t-shirts are big sellers around
> here. I'll make a sample for you. :-P
>
> Chris O'Connor
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 21
> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 05:22:43 -0000
> From: chrisoco@...
> Subject: Re: Help - Pagan Flavored Science/Health Curriculum
>
> --- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Tami Labig-Duquette"
> <labigduquette@h...> wrote:
>
> > Wow :) I dont think I meant it quite that way, I meant if you
> > have to have the books (textbook/workbooks), then I feel (IMO)
> > that clonara is the way I would go. I am good at confusing
> > anyone and everyone :) ask around.
> > Sorry about that :)
>
> Thanks for clarifying, Tami. Sorry to reply before I had gotten all
> the way through my e-mails. If I "hear" you correctly, you are saying
> that Clonlara might be able to help the Dad who feels the need for
> textbooks and documentation? I can see that as they would
> apply "credit" for the work and give it the "authority" he seems to
> need. And in the meantime, Mom can still feel that she is following a
> more relaxed atmosphere while getting back up from an "authority".
>
> Having such a supportive, relaxed husband is such a blessing.... I'll
> have to remember to thank mine.
>
> in peace,
>
> Chris O'Connor
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 22
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:04:28 -0800
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> Subject: Re: speaking of reactions to food, and reactions to reactions
>
> For those who have been looking for an option when it comes to soft drinks
> and can't or don't choose to go the refined sugar or chemical way,
Hanson's
> now has a dye-free diet soda out that is made with stefia (is that spelled
> right?). Voila, no chemicals (aspertame or sacharine), no red, yellow or
> blue dyes, no sodium, no preservatives AND it has passed the kidlet taste
> test!
>
> Youngest discovered it this evening when we were deciding what to buy for
> our "home theater (vcr and rented movies <g>).
>
> Lynda
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 22:30:53 -0800
> From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
> Subject: Re: Digest Number 1593
>
> Heart attacks, obesity, TMJ, miscarriages, infertility, the list goes on.
> All can be. Are they usually or even 50% of the time, I don't think so.
I
> believe the old excuse "it's all my parents' fault" has been over used and
> abused. IMHO it is all part of the blame game that is so popular--I was
> abused, I'm a minority, the bullies picked on me, I had a domineering
> mother, I didn't have a father figure, I ate a twinkie, etc., etc., etc.
>
> It's about the only thing I agree with ol' Dr. Phil on. Too many excuses
> and too many people not willing to accept responsibility for their own
> lives.
>
> Lynda
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Julie Stauffer <jnjstau@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 18, 2001 7:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1593
>
>
> > <<Give me an example or two of a medical problem caused by a control
> issue>>
> >
> > Ulcers, constipation, headaches, anorexia nervosa, bulimia, depression,
> > generalized pain disorder, etc..
> >
> > All of these and many more CAN be caused by situational factors, such as
> > emotional stress. Are they always caused by psychological factors? No.
> Can
> > they be? Yes.
> >
> > Julie
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 24
> Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2001 23:49:27 -0700
> From: ddzimlew@...
> Subject: Re: How's the weather?
>
>
> > > Really, the best way to stop a flame war is to change the subject.
> > How's
> > > the weather where you are?
>
> It began raining here Saturday evening, and though the rain had stopped
> by midnight, the sky was full of clouds. We knew there wasn't much
> chance of seeing the meteor shower. We laid on a tarp, wrapped in
> sleeping bags, my son's little warm hand in mine. While we were hoping
> for the clouds to break, we began to hear the geese. They came over our
> little town in waves, their bellies shimmering like silver ribbons
> against the grey sky. The sound was indescribable. I can't begin to
> imagine how many there were. When our hot chocolate ran out and my son
> fell asleep, we carried him inside. We went out again about two o'clock
> and still the geese were coming. We watched and listened for two more
> hours, before their numbers seemed to dwindle. It was all so utterly
> magical. Not one shooting star but thousands of shining geese, and they
> sang to us too.
>
> Deb L
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>

Joseph Fuerst

> > That our right to bring peanut butter to school is more important than
> > having Jessie and Mark there? Call me crazy, but I think people are
more
> > important than food preferences. Altering something this simple to show
> > love, caring, and respect for another person seems pretty basic.
> >
>
> If they chose to marry Jessie or Mark, or to be roommates, then it's love,
> caring and respect. If they go to a school because of compulsory
attendance
> laws and happen to be in the same district, that's not quite the same
> situation. Maybe another child only will eat peanut butter for lunch and
> really wants it, or is hypoglycemic and vegetarian and peanuts are a
staple.


>
> Making the 400 (or however many) kids feel guilty for the medical problems
of
> the two doesn't seem equitable to me.
>
> Sandra

"Making X kids feel guilty" ??????? Nobody said anything about making any
kids feel anything. Not to mention you can't MAKE anyone feel any way. Not
to mention that, at least in this situation, the adults want to keep the
kids out of this as much as possible, unless it's an opportunity for them
to practice compassion.
Susan

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/01 5:01:01 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[email protected] writes:


> Heart attacks, obesity, TMJ, miscarriages, infertility, the list goes on.
> All can be. Are they usually or even 50% of the time, I don't think so.


Lynda, sorry I have been deleting so I need you to tell me what you meant
here. These things can be mentally controlled? Just curious. I have had 8
encounters,family,friends,acquaintences that have miscarried this year. I
have been so concerned I would too, like why should this work for me if so
many people are having miscarriages. Sadly yesterday I watched a dear
friend's son while she went for her first appt. (7wks) and there was no heart
beat. She is so torn up. Her 2 yo daughter died last year this Dec, So this
is really hard on her. My personal theory is, this baby wasn't healthy enough
and nature took its course. But I can't tell that to someone who is having
such a tough time w/ life this past year.

Just curious.

NICKI~


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]