Annette Naake

To me, unschooling is simply saying goodbye to the institution of school,
the waiting in lines there, the cafeteria lunches, the dreary assignments
for kids whose imaginations have already flown to some other plane. It's
about involving our kids in real life -- planning and fixing meals, reading
a book they want to read and not having to wait in line to talk about it.
It's about ditching worksheets where kids are supposed to add up pictures of
coins, and replacing them with real circumstances where kids can count and
spend real actual money. And replacing all those other fake assignments
with, hey, real life!

It is *not* about abandoning our parental responsibilities, such as, if we
feel it necessary, requiring chores, bedtimes, family mealtimes, limits or
bans on certain foods, respect for others, limits on TV and Nintendo, etc.

I just felt it was necessary to make this quick distinction.

Annette
Mom to Tony, 9, and Nicky, 4



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

[email protected]

I think you've made a very good point.
Sheila


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Annette Naake" <naake1999@h...>
wrote:
> To me, unschooling is simply saying goodbye to the institution of
school,
> the waiting in lines there, the cafeteria lunches, the dreary
assignments
> for kids whose imaginations have already flown to some other
plane. It's
> about involving our kids in real life -- planning and fixing meals,
reading
> a book they want to read and not having to wait in line to talk
about it.
> It's about ditching worksheets where kids are supposed to add up
pictures of
> coins, and replacing them with real circumstances where kids can
count and
> spend real actual money. And replacing all those other fake
assignments
> with, hey, real life!
>
> It is *not* about abandoning our parental responsibilities, such
as, if we
> feel it necessary, requiring chores, bedtimes, family mealtimes,
limits or
> bans on certain foods, respect for others, limits on TV and
Nintendo, etc.
>
> I just felt it was necessary to make this quick distinction.
>
> Annette
> Mom to Tony, 9, and Nicky, 4
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Pam Hartley

----------
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1600
>Date: Mon, Nov 19, 2001, 3:39 PM
>

> It is *not* about abandoning our parental responsibilities, such as, if we
> feel it necessary, requiring chores, bedtimes, family mealtimes, limits or
> bans on certain foods, respect for others, limits on TV and Nintendo, etc.


Lots of people (lots and LOTS of people, and even more if they knew what we
were doing) think that unschooling is abandoning our parental
responsibilities.

I don't think NOT feeling it's necessary to require chores, bedtimes, family
mealtimes, limits or bans on certain foods, respect for others, limits on TV
and Nintendo, etc. is abandoning parental responsibilities.

I am curious about exactly what real families you know who don't require
(deep breath) chores, bedtimes, family mealtimes, limits or bans on certain
foods, respect for others, limits on TV and Nintendo, etc. do or don't do
that you attribute to abandoning parental responsibilities.

If one person says, "I limit television so my children won't spend all day
stuck in front of a box" and another person says, "I don't limit television
and my children don't spend all day stuck in front of a box", I'm not real
clear on why some would think the first option more parentally responsible
than the second.

Pam

[email protected]

> It is *not* about abandoning our parental responsibilities, such as,
> if we
> feel it necessary, requiring chores, bedtimes, family mealtimes,
> limits or
> bans on certain foods, respect for others, limits on TV and
> Nintendo, etc.

When we realized we could trust our child would learn to read with out
lessons, add without textbooks, write without practicing a hundred loopy
o's, we decided to look deeper , at the other things people do, and how
they come to do them.
Our son has never been required to do *chores*. He's never been asked to
clean his room. He's never been told to take out the trash. He does
these things anyway, because he has lived in a house where he sees people
doing what is needed. He learned about keeping his environment livable
by living in it. He learned about helping by being helped, and having a
chance to help.

I don't think a child who lives in a loving home will become an ax
murderer if he's required to clean his room. I just question whether
the "requirement" is really necessary to a learning person.

I have never felt it was my parental responsibility to *require* things
of my child. Parental responsibility for me, is providing a safe and
loving place for him to learn and grow in his own way.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 11/19/01 5:02:04 PM, pamhartley@... writes:

<< I don't think NOT feeling it's necessary to require chores, bedtimes,
family
mealtimes, limits or bans on certain foods, respect for others, limits on TV
and Nintendo, etc. is abandoning parental responsibilities.
>>

Diagramming that sentence would be like playing Twister!
(I'm not going to do either one.)

I'm used to people outside of unschooling discussions accusing me of
abandoning parental responsibilities. I know there was a token
justification in the original paragraph, but the use of the phrase
"abandoning parental responsibilities" suggests to me that there are people
on the list who just think that giving children freedom of choice is
irresponsible.

That's disappointing.

Sandra

[email protected]

> I am curious about exactly what real families you know who don't
> require...
chores..., etc. do or
> don't do
> that you attribute to abandoning parental responsibilities.


I'm curious too. How does having control really make someone a more
responsible parent?
Deb L

> If one person says, "I limit television so my children won't spend
> all day
> stuck in front of a box" and another person says, "I don't limit
> television
> and my children don't spend all day stuck in front of a box", I'm
> not real
> clear on why some would think the first option more parentally
> responsible
> than the second.

[email protected]

Deb,
This was a perfect explanation. I think I am going to show it to DH when he
gets home!
Elissa
>When we realized we could trust our child would learn to read with out
>lessons, add without textbooks, write without practicing a hundred loopy
>o's, we decided to look deeper , at the other things people do, and how
>they come to do them.
>Our son has never been required to do *chores*. He's never been asked to
>clean his room. He's never been told to take out the trash. He does
>these things anyway, because he has lived in a house where he sees people
>doing what is needed. He learned about keeping his environment livable
>by living in it. He learned about helping by being helped, and having a
>chance to help.
>

Bridget

Perhaps, the use of the phrase "abandoning parental responsibilities"
stemmed from the fact that you often sound like you are advocating
total and complete abandonment of parental responsibility.

I don't think that is what you mean to be saying. But I do see why
others respond to you as if it is what you say.


Bridget


--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> I'm used to people outside of unschooling discussions accusing me
of
> abandoning parental responsibilities. I know there was a token
> justification in the original paragraph, but the use of the phrase
> "abandoning parental responsibilities" suggests to me that there
are people
> on the list who just think that giving children freedom of choice
is
> irresponsible.
>
> That's disappointing.
>
> Sandra

Paul Bogush

Hi,
I'm new....I'm still unlearning....I'm also in a fragile state due to recent
personal tragedies....but I'm trying, so please go easy on me....

For clarification sake, what you (the general group, from what I've read so
far) seem to saying is that I shouldn't restrict things like TV, junk foods,
messiness.... How about bedtimes? Can I set the time she goes in? And
chores, you say no to those too...so after dinner, when my child asks to be
excused <gasp! still unlearning, still deciding what of all of this I'll
take and what I'll leave, but yes I did say "asks to be excused" gasp
again!> and I say "sure, please take your dishes in to the kitchen" , it's a
'bad' thing? So much of what I learned and the way I was brought up has to
be thrown out the window....stuff I just thought was helping kids learn
manners, being responsible, etc. (My mom decided hair length on my
college-aged brother.)

A couple of questions/comments....

I had a miscarriage in 99, my DD was 1 1/2. In the aftermath of that event
she watched LOTS more tv (videos, we don't have cable) than ever
before...she'd watch a couple of hours a day, as opposed to a half hour
every couple of days. I noticed a HUGE decline in her ability to engage in
activities herself. She had never before been 'bored' and now she'd walk
around the house, see nothing that interested her and ask to watch tv.
Prior to this she'd have gotten engaged in any number of things...from water
play, to toys, to books, etc. Her imagination seemed to be put on hold.
Her behavior also changed. She was suddenly unable to cope with everyday
minor things...they'd throw her into a tailspin....she also became
uncooperative (alright, maybe we were asking her to do a chore...). I was
amazed to see the changes in her and I considered them negative
changes....so soon after we went back to limited video viewing and her
imagination seemed to kick in again. But, you're telling me that if she
wants to watch videos, I should let her watch them...all day if that's what
she wants.... (Please don't write all of this off by saying that my
emotional state could have been the sole cause of her changes in
behavior....) And what about the types of videos? Do I get any say in what
she watches? She's 3 1/2, btw. And you never ask your kids to pick up
their mess or are you talking only about their rooms? If DD cuts up a piece
of paper into hundreds of tiny pieces of paper on the dining room floor and
walks away....can't I later ask her to pick them up? Or do I have to wait
for 'natural' consequences to kick in...

Also, why is it a bad thing if we grow, raise, purchase, cook, and provide
for our family healthy, wholesome, organic foods? I work really hard to do
this! DD usually (unless the day is out of control altogether) gets to
decide what she wants for breakfast, lunch, and snacks from what we have in
the house. On occasion she decides dinner and/or will make dessert. She
has a bagel...everyday almost. She has grilled cheese....everyday almost.
She gets up on the counter and looks in the cabinets or in the fridge for
snacks/drinks. She can select anything....all of it is fairly to very
healthy. She and her dad go for doughnuts on Saturday mornings as a
treat....they also share twizzlers from time to time. I did restrict
Halloween candy....she could have two pieces after she at her meal <gasp!>
but then the dog ate all the rest so that was that. We have always talked
about healthy v. non healthy foods. It's OK to eat non healthy foods, but
not all the time...it's the healthy foods that help us grow and stay fit.
It was wrong to say this? It's the truth (as I see it...you may disagree)
Hmmmm, I have some difficulty applying unschooling across the board....I
look forward to continuing to 'listen' to your conversations....this is all
so very interesting to me....

Can I stay if I take some and leave some?

Aimee
"who's mind is being awakened"

----- Original Message -----
From: <ddzimlew@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 7:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschooling vs. unparenting


> > I am curious about exactly what real families you know who don't
> > require...
> chores..., etc. do or
> > don't do
> > that you attribute to abandoning parental responsibilities.
>
>
> I'm curious too. How does having control really make someone a more
> responsible parent?
> Deb L
>
> > If one person says, "I limit television so my children won't spend
> > all day
> > stuck in front of a box" and another person says, "I don't limit
> > television
> > and my children don't spend all day stuck in front of a box", I'm
> > not real
> > clear on why some would think the first option more parentally
> > responsible
> > than the second.
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Paul Bogush

"whose mind, not who's"
:)
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Bogush <shaggyhill@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschooling vs. unparenting


> Hi,
> I'm new....I'm still unlearning....I'm also in a fragile state due to
recent
> personal tragedies....but I'm trying, so please go easy on me....
>
> For clarification sake, what you (the general group, from what I've read
so
> far) seem to saying is that I shouldn't restrict things like TV, junk
foods,
> messiness.... How about bedtimes? Can I set the time she goes in? And
> chores, you say no to those too...so after dinner, when my child asks to
be
> excused <gasp! still unlearning, still deciding what of all of this I'll
> take and what I'll leave, but yes I did say "asks to be excused" gasp
> again!> and I say "sure, please take your dishes in to the kitchen" , it's
a
> 'bad' thing? So much of what I learned and the way I was brought up has
to
> be thrown out the window....stuff I just thought was helping kids learn
> manners, being responsible, etc. (My mom decided hair length on my
> college-aged brother.)
>
> A couple of questions/comments....
>
> I had a miscarriage in 99, my DD was 1 1/2. In the aftermath of that
event
> she watched LOTS more tv (videos, we don't have cable) than ever
> before...she'd watch a couple of hours a day, as opposed to a half hour
> every couple of days. I noticed a HUGE decline in her ability to engage
in
> activities herself. She had never before been 'bored' and now she'd walk
> around the house, see nothing that interested her and ask to watch tv.
> Prior to this she'd have gotten engaged in any number of things...from
water
> play, to toys, to books, etc. Her imagination seemed to be put on hold.
> Her behavior also changed. She was suddenly unable to cope with everyday
> minor things...they'd throw her into a tailspin....she also became
> uncooperative (alright, maybe we were asking her to do a chore...). I was
> amazed to see the changes in her and I considered them negative
> changes....so soon after we went back to limited video viewing and her
> imagination seemed to kick in again. But, you're telling me that if she
> wants to watch videos, I should let her watch them...all day if that's
what
> she wants.... (Please don't write all of this off by saying that my
> emotional state could have been the sole cause of her changes in
> behavior....) And what about the types of videos? Do I get any say in
what
> she watches? She's 3 1/2, btw. And you never ask your kids to pick up
> their mess or are you talking only about their rooms? If DD cuts up a
piece
> of paper into hundreds of tiny pieces of paper on the dining room floor
and
> walks away....can't I later ask her to pick them up? Or do I have to wait
> for 'natural' consequences to kick in...
>
> Also, why is it a bad thing if we grow, raise, purchase, cook, and provide
> for our family healthy, wholesome, organic foods? I work really hard to do
> this! DD usually (unless the day is out of control altogether) gets to
> decide what she wants for breakfast, lunch, and snacks from what we have
in
> the house. On occasion she decides dinner and/or will make dessert. She
> has a bagel...everyday almost. She has grilled cheese....everyday almost.
> She gets up on the counter and looks in the cabinets or in the fridge for
> snacks/drinks. She can select anything....all of it is fairly to very
> healthy. She and her dad go for doughnuts on Saturday mornings as a
> treat....they also share twizzlers from time to time. I did restrict
> Halloween candy....she could have two pieces after she at her meal <gasp!>
> but then the dog ate all the rest so that was that. We have always talked
> about healthy v. non healthy foods. It's OK to eat non healthy foods, but
> not all the time...it's the healthy foods that help us grow and stay fit.
> It was wrong to say this? It's the truth (as I see it...you may disagree)
> Hmmmm, I have some difficulty applying unschooling across the board....I
> look forward to continuing to 'listen' to your conversations....this is
all
> so very interesting to me....
>
> Can I stay if I take some and leave some?
>
> Aimee
> "who's mind is being awakened"
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <ddzimlew@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 7:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschooling vs. unparenting
>
>
> > > I am curious about exactly what real families you know who don't
> > > require...
> > chores..., etc. do or
> > > don't do
> > > that you attribute to abandoning parental responsibilities.
> >
> >
> > I'm curious too. How does having control really make someone a more
> > responsible parent?
> > Deb L
> >
> > > If one person says, "I limit television so my children won't spend
> > > all day
> > > stuck in front of a box" and another person says, "I don't limit
> > > television
> > > and my children don't spend all day stuck in front of a box", I'm
> > > not real
> > > clear on why some would think the first option more parentally
> > > responsible
> > > than the second.
> >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

<< Perhaps, the use of the phrase "abandoning parental responsibilities"
stemmed from the fact that you often sound like you are advocating
total and complete abandonment of parental responsibility.
>>

I'm trying to get people to reexamine what "responsibility" is.

I haven't abandoned my children in any way.
I'm not an irresponsible parent in any way (except from the point of view of
those who think kids should be in school, or on a schedule, or tested).

So if there are people on a list who believe and defend the idea that it is
neglectful to develop a new awareness of what children can do if given the
leeway to do it, then unschooling is going to be difficult to discuss
productively.

I think the root word of "responsible" being "respond," that I'm wanting to
respond to my children where they are in each moment. (Quite likely the
intended "response" in the history of the word/concept is to have to report
to someone higher up that you have sufficiently ignored the child and broken
his spirit to earn the praise and approval of the authority above you; I'm
not reporting to other authorities, I am living with my family.)

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

[email protected]

<< But, you're telling me that if she
wants to watch videos, I should let her watch them...all day if that's what
she wants.... (Please don't write all of this off by saying that my
emotional state could have been the sole cause of her changes in
behavior....) >>

But you seem to be blaming TV without the surrounding factors.

AND she was getting older every day, every hour. What was fascinating to her
before was old now. Kids need new input, and they need things to do WITH the
adults, not just in the same building with the adults.

-=-And what about the types of videos? Do I get any say in what
she watches? -=-

You're asking this as though you think there is some need to do everything
some other person's way. Do it your way. There is a river of information
here, and some of it will change your life if you want, and some won't, and
none of it is binding on you (except in that way that if you had never heard
of it you wouldn't be responsible for considering it).

-=-And you never ask your kids to pick up
their mess or are you talking only about their rooms? -=-

Of course I ask my kids to pick up messes, but not on a schedule. I don't
say "by 11:00 every morning there must be no speck of your stuff in any
public area, and this must be done every day before you may eat lunch." If
there's not about to be something happening on the table, Marty's card
sorting and Holly's art can sit there. When it's time to eat or play a game,
they move their stuff. Or they move it when they want it. Or I move it
(gently) if I need the table and they're not around.

-=-If DD cuts up a piece
of paper into hundreds of tiny pieces of paper on the dining room floor and
walks away....can't I later ask her to pick them up? Or do I have to wait
for 'natural' consequences to kick in...-=-

It's a natural consequence if you want it picked up and she has to quit doing
something fun to come pick it up.

It's NOT a natural consequence if you say "paper on the floor costs you half
your allowance" or "Because there was paper on the floor, you're grounded."

But a little kid probably can't pick up all that paper alone, and if you help
her it could be made a game. You could wet your fingers and let the paper
stick to them and drop it in the trash like magnetic cranes at the wrecking
yard.

Modelling creativity and joy is part of the job.

-=-Also, why is it a bad thing if we grow, raise, purchase, cook, and provide
for our family healthy, wholesome, organic foods? I work really hard to do
this! -=-

It's not bad. Nobody said it was bad.

-=-It's OK to eat non healthy foods, but
not all the time...it's the healthy foods that help us grow and stay fit.
It was wrong to say this? It's the truth (as I see it...you may disagree)-=-

Do you think the people who let their kids choose are telling their kids that
Tootsie Roll is just as good for them as apples are? They're not. I'm not
keeping my kids ignorant of what foods are and what they're good for. I'm
keeping them relatively ignorant of shame and of what it feels like to be tol
d what and where and how to eat every meal of the day.

-=-Can I stay if I take some and leave some?-=-

It that weren't the case, nobody could stay.

Sandra

Bridget

It's nice to see someone is alowed to say such things and not be told
to leave.

Sorry - just a little lapse there, couldn't help it.

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

>
> -=-Can I stay if I take some and leave some?-=-
>
> It that weren't the case, nobody could stay.
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2001 10:53:35 -0500 "Paul Bogush"
<shaggyhill@...> writes:
> How about bedtimes? Can I set the time she goes in?

I never have. She goes to bed when she's tired, just like the rest of us
do. We're probably one of the few families in America who have never had
a fight over bedtime...

>And
> chores, you say no to those too...so after dinner, when my child
> asks to beexcused <gasp! still unlearning, still deciding what of all
of this
> I'll take and what I'll leave, but yes I did say "asks to be excused"
gasp
> again!> and I say "sure, please take your dishes in to the kitchen"
> , it's a 'bad' thing?

Neither of us ask to be excused, we might say "excuse me". OTOH, I have
asked her to bring her dishes into the kitchen, or to make a "dish run"
and round up any other dishes left in the living room, or carry a basket
full of laundry to the bedroom since she's going there... and she rarely
says no and if so, there's a good reason. I think the key is ask,
though... she certainly could say no, but she doesn't... we're just used
to working together and helping each other.


> I had a miscarriage in 99, my DD was 1 1/2. In the aftermath of that
event
> she watched LOTS more tv (videos, we don't have cable) than ever
> before...she'd watch a couple of hours a day, as opposed to a half hour
> every couple of days. I noticed a HUGE decline in her ability to
engage in
> activities herself. She had never before been 'bored' and now she'd
walk
> around the house, see nothing that interested her and ask to watch
> tv.

Do you think that that might have had more to do with your being in a
state of grief and perhaps less available than formerly? Ah, wait, I see
that you dismiss this idea farther down - but why? It makes a lot of
sense to me. It could also be part of the process of learning to
self-regulate, like when kids who have never been allowed to eat more
than one piece of candy are suddenly able to eat all they want, they
often stuff themselves silly, since that's what everyone has expected
that they will do all of their lives if they were given that freedom.
Freedom often takes some getting used to.

It also sounds like pretty typical 1 1/2 yr old developmental stuff,
especially is you were starting to expect her to do chores at that age.
:-/

> And you never ask your kids to pick up
> their mess or are you talking only about their rooms? If DD cuts up a
piece
> of paper into hundreds of tiny pieces of paper on the dining room
floor and
> walks away....can't I later ask her to pick them up?

Sure you can ask, as long as it's asking and not commanding. Often people
say ask when they mean command. Asking implies that the answer could be
no...
>
> Also, why is it a bad thing if we grow, raise, purchase, cook, and
provide
> for our family healthy, wholesome, organic foods? I work really hard
> to do this!

I try to do this, because that's mostly what we like. Actually, we have
sort of a mix of things like tofu meatloaf (Cacie loves this, the rest of
us think it's got a really weird texture) and broccoli and carrots and
choclate frogs and peppermint ice cream and sushi and bagels and rice
crackers and chips... whatever. We all go shopping most of the time...

> We have always talked
> about healthy v. non healthy foods. It's OK to eat non healthy foods,
but
> not all the time...it's the healthy foods that help us grow and stay
> fit. It was wrong to say this? It's the truth (as I see it...you may
> disagree)

I think it's a kind of simplistic truth. Straight sugar will help you
grow, too, it has calories. I have talked about vitamins, and about
protein and carbs and sugar... Cacie plays soccer, so on Saturday she
spends two hours running up and down the soccer field. We've done some
research on carbohydrates and proteins and stuff, and she finds that a
lot of sugar or fat before the game makes her feel ill after a half hour
or so... I have also noticed that she tends to get emotionally
overwrought more easily if she hasn't had food in a while, especially
protein... my brother was like this as a kid, so I'm a little familiar
with it, although I can go a day without eating and not feel any ill
effects.So, I've spent years now trying to point out the connection and
she's pretty good now about grabbing some food when she's feeling that
way... of course, it's not a sure thing, sometimes she doesn't eat for
hours and is fine, but if she does feel sad for no reason it's often a
clue..

> Can I stay if I take some and leave some?

I think everyone does...

Dar
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http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.

Pam Hartley

----------
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1602
>Date: Tue, Nov 20, 2001, 9:00 AM
>

> Perhaps, the use of the phrase "abandoning parental responsibilities"
> stemmed from the fact that you often sound like you are advocating
> total and complete abandonment of parental responsibility.

It's actually more the difference in what some people think of as parental
responsibility.

I would think myself irresponsible if I took the right to make their own
choices from my children.

My parental responsibility is to provide the kind of home and life that
gives my children choices, and trusts them to make the ones right for them.

So far, mine do.

Pam

[email protected]

<< I have also noticed that she tends to get emotionally
overwrought more easily if she hasn't had food in a while, especially
protein... my brother was like this as a kid >>

I'm that way, and Kirby is too. The other kids aren't. My husband isn't.

Sometimes Kirby will come gallumping in kinda surly and say "I need some
protein."

And we plan ahead about it too. If he's going to be involved for something
for over four hours, we try to make sure his last act before plunging into
the activity is to have a few ounces of protein and some water.

In New Mexico, dehydration can be a serious factor in a lot of kid grumpiness
(and adult grumpiness). Even in the winter it's dry.

Sandra

Tia Leschke

>
>
>For clarification sake, what you (the general group, from what I've read so
>far) seem to saying is that I shouldn't restrict things like TV, junk foods,
>messiness....

I think there's quite a bit of disagreement here on these issues. I think
you need to do what works best for you and your family. On the other hand,
I've changed my attitude toward some of these things (like TV) as a result
of these discussions, so keeping an open mind is a good thing.

>How about bedtimes? Can I set the time she goes in?

Sounds like you're asking permission. <g>

I think there's a lot that goes into the bedtime decision. Some kids tend
to go to sleep when they get tired. I actually had *one* like that. Other
kids get wound up and cranky when they get tired, but fight sleep as if it
were the enemy. I think those kids need to be treated a bit differently in
terms of the bedtime thing.

Also, a mother's sanity is pretty important to her kids. Many mothers
don't keep their sanity well if they don't get some alone or
alone-with-hubby time at the end of the day. I think it's to their kids'
advantage if the mother gets that time, one way or another. Some mothers
don't specify a bedtime so much as a time for everyone being reasonably
quiet and in their own space (or at least out of the parent's space). And
then there comes a time when your kid will want to stay up later than
you. I fought the idea with my youngest (now 14), thinking that I *had* to
have that time after everyone went to bed to do my writing. My son was
persistent and I finally realized that I could do my writing in the morning
just as well as at night.

I think that if you're paying attention to your child's needs and wants,
and trying to make sure that all of their needs and at least some of their
wants get met, one way or another, you're being a responsible parent.

>And
>chores, you say no to those too...so after dinner, when my child asks to be
>excused <gasp! still unlearning, still deciding what of all of this I'll
>take and what I'll leave, but yes I did say "asks to be excused" gasp
>again!> and I say "sure, please take your dishes in to the kitchen" , it's a
>'bad' thing?

Being polite is a bad thing? <g> I guess the reaction to that one would
depend on what happens if the child doesn't do what was asked. When Lars
was younger, we didn't insist on any chores. He loved helping us, and we
felt we got more of a contribution to the work of the family by *not*
assigning chores. Then he got older. <g>

Now he has *one* regular after-dinner clean-up chore. He is *asked* to do
other things, like chopping kindling and bringing in firewood, because
these things are very difficult and painful for me. And Dad is working
really hard and I don't want him to have to do it when he comes home. Lars
is pretty reasonable about doing these things. It's a compromise that
works for our family. We're very flexible, though. When Lars was working
with his dad full time for a few weeks, he was just too bagged at the end
of the day to do his cleanup chore. So I did it. No big deal.

>So much of what I learned and the way I was brought up has to
>be thrown out the window....stuff I just thought was helping kids learn
>manners, being responsible, etc. (My mom decided hair length on my
>college-aged brother.)

Oh yikes! And he let her?


>A couple of questions/comments....
>
>I had a miscarriage in 99, my DD was 1 1/2. In the aftermath of that event
>she watched LOTS more tv (videos, we don't have cable) than ever
>before...

My son was about the same age when my first marraige broke up. He watched
a *lot* of Sesame Street, etc. while I was trying to get my head back together.

> But, you're telling me that if she
>wants to watch videos, I should let her watch them...all day if that's what
>she wants....

Some folks are saying that. Not all.

> And what about the types of videos? Do I get any say in what
>she watches?

There you go, asking permission again. <g>
Again, listen to what everyone is saying, but make up your mind according
to what will work for you and your family.

>And you never ask your kids to pick up
>their mess or are you talking only about their rooms? If DD cuts up a piece
>of paper into hundreds of tiny pieces of paper on the dining room floor and
>walks away....can't I later ask her to pick them up? Or do I have to wait
>for 'natural' consequences to kick in...

There wouldn't *be* any natural consequences to that which would actually
affect her. If she leaves them there, they obviously don't bother
her. Personally, I don't have a problem with asking older kids to pick up
after themselves. I'd do the same if I had a messy adult roommate. With
little kids, it works a lot better to start picking up and ask them to do
it with you. Even if she only picks up one or two pieces, you could thank
her for her help and point out how much nicer things look now.

I also figured out recently that if I just go ahead and clean up the house
to a certain point, and keep putting other people's things where they
belong when they get left out, that the rest of the family starts to follow
suit after a while. I always left other people's stuff where it was, and
got annoyed about the fact that they never seemed to notice it. Now I find
that they notice it sooner because I've been keeping things tidier.


>Also, why is it a bad thing if we grow, raise, purchase, cook, and provide
>for our family healthy, wholesome, organic foods? I work really hard to do
>this!

I haven't seen anyone say this. I think maybe what some people are saying
about the food issue is to not make it into almost a religion, a moral issue.

>I did restrict
>Halloween candy....she could have two pieces after she at her meal <gasp!>
>but then the dog ate all the rest so that was that.

I hope the dog was ok. Chocolate is poison to dogs, especially little ones.

>We have always talked
>about healthy v. non healthy foods. It's OK to eat non healthy foods, but
>not all the time...it's the healthy foods that help us grow and stay fit.
>It was wrong to say this? It's the truth (as I see it...you may disagree)

I agree. But I also think you need to be careful not to put so much
emphasis on how bad some foods are that they become the desired forbidden
fruit.

>Hmmmm, I have some difficulty applying unschooling across the board....I
>look forward to continuing to 'listen' to your conversations....this is all
>so very interesting to me....

I think it's a process. I think that if you just decided that one person
here was right and you were going to do everything "her" way (whichever
"her" you chose) that you wouldn't be unschooling at all. You'd merely be
following "her" curriculum. <g> My advice would be to let go of the
things that you can see now are not important to control. As you see that
working well, think about what you could let go next, and try that, always
keeping a close eye on how it's affecting your child and your family. It
has to work for your family. If it isn't working, try to see why and find
a way to change things so it will work.


>Can I stay if I take some and leave some?

I would say that you would be thinking for yourself, and that's a *good* thing.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Elizabeth Hill

Paul Bogush wrote:

>
> A couple of questions/comments....
>
> I had a miscarriage in 99, my DD was 1 1/2. In the aftermath of that event
> she watched LOTS more tv (videos, we don't have cable) than ever
> before...she'd watch a couple of hours a day, as opposed to a half hour
> every couple of days. I noticed a HUGE decline in her ability to engage in
> activities herself. She had never before been 'bored' and now she'd walk
> around the house, see nothing that interested her and ask to watch tv.
> Prior to this she'd have gotten engaged in any number of things...from water
> play, to toys, to books, etc. Her imagination seemed to be put on hold.
> Her behavior also changed.

I believe that children's ability to regulate their TV viewing is vastly
different in times of crisis and difficulty. When real life isn't fun and
interesting, then TV viewing can go up and up. The extra viewing can squeeze
other things out of life temporarily. This isn't great, but I don't think a
mom should beat herself up if she is busy grieving or ill or healing and her
kids watch "too much" TV. I hope a parent in this situation would be gentle to
herself and agonize as little as possible.

I think the advice that's often given in this forum, about kids being able to
self-regulated their viewing, is intended for normal to good life
circumstances. I don't think this general advice fits well in extreme
situations. (And I'm not trying to blame people for their life circumstances.
Just saying that common denominator advice may not suit them at that time.)

Betsy

Paul Bogush

>
> << But, you're telling me that if she
> wants to watch videos, I should let her watch them...all day if that's
what
> she wants.... (Please don't write all of this off by saying that my
> emotional state could have been the sole cause of her changes in
> behavior....) >>
>
> But you seem to be blaming TV without the surrounding factors.
>
> AND she was getting older every day, every hour. What was fascinating to
her
> before was old now. Kids need new input, and they need things to do WITH
the
> adults, not just in the same building with the adults.

True....I'm pretty adamant about blaming it on the TV...not sure why. Maybe
I have trouble admitting that grief got in the way....so yes, it may have
been a variety of things....and yes, she is always changing and growing....


>
> -=-And what about the types of videos? Do I get any say in what
> she watches? -=-
>
> You're asking this as though you think there is some need to do everything
> some other person's way. Do it your way. There is a river of information
> here, and some of it will change your life if you want, and some won't,
and
> none of it is binding on you (except in that way that if you had never
heard
> of it you wouldn't be responsible for considering it).


Yes. I like rules. If I follow them, then I'm doing it right, right? I
get a gold star and approval and I can feel good about myself. So, yes, I
guess I am trying to figure out what the 'rules' are and some of them don't
fit...so I need to grow up and decide that it's OK. I can do what fits us.
I may not get the unschooler of the year award and that's OK. (I sound like
Gary Smalley)


>
> -=-And you never ask your kids to pick up
> their mess or are you talking only about their rooms? -=-
>
> Of course I ask my kids to pick up messes, but not on a schedule. I don't
> say "by 11:00 every morning there must be no speck of your stuff in any
> public area, and this must be done every day before you may eat lunch."
If
> there's not about to be something happening on the table, Marty's card
> sorting and Holly's art can sit there. When it's time to eat or play a
game,
> they move their stuff. Or they move it when they want it. Or I move it
> (gently) if I need the table and they're not around.


OK!!!! I do this! There is no schedule...we usually get to a point in which
someone can't stand it anymore and then we all take some time to put stuff
away.... I'd have to move out if there couldn't be a speck of my stuff in
any public area by 11 am! Thanks for articulating this. I had just said to
a friend, "Oh well, generally I let Emma keep her stuff out.... If I were
sewing I would leave the project on the table until it was done, why
shouldn't she get to keep her block dinosaur land on the playroom floor?"
Reception was a stunned, "oh, I see" or something like that. When the dog
hair on the carpet starts to cause a breathing hazard...well, then we ask if
it's OK to disassemble the blocks so I can vacuum. So, stars here....I'm in
line on this one it seems! :)


>
> -=-If DD cuts up a piece
> of paper into hundreds of tiny pieces of paper on the dining room floor
and
> walks away....can't I later ask her to pick them up? Or do I have to wait
> for 'natural' consequences to kick in...-=-
>
> It's a natural consequence if you want it picked up and she has to quit
doing
> something fun to come pick it up.
>
> It's NOT a natural consequence if you say "paper on the floor costs you
half
> your allowance" or "Because there was paper on the floor, you're
grounded."
>
> But a little kid probably can't pick up all that paper alone, and if you
help
> her it could be made a game. You could wet your fingers and let the
paper
> stick to them and drop it in the trash like magnetic cranes at the
wrecking
> yard.
>
> Modelling creativity and joy is part of the job.

Boy, you must know some stringent-types (or my mom). I was grounded half my
life! We don't do allowance or grounding and most times it's she and I down
there on the floor or she and DH. In the old days it'd be more like a
game....recently we just pick it up together...but maybe as this new period
of grief subsides a bit it'll become a game again.... What usually happens
is the stuff just hangs around until the dog hair, oh I mentioned that
already.... Then when we have a cleaning flurry. DD is welcome to join me
in cleaning, but usually opts out.

>
> -=-Also, why is it a bad thing if we grow, raise, purchase, cook, and
provide
> for our family healthy, wholesome, organic foods? I work really hard to do
> this! -=-
>
> It's not bad. Nobody said it was bad.

Oh. OK. Good.


>
> -=-It's OK to eat non healthy foods, but
> not all the time...it's the healthy foods that help us grow and stay fit.
> It was wrong to say this? It's the truth (as I see it...you may
disagree)-=-
>
> Do you think the people who let their kids choose are telling their kids
that
> Tootsie Roll is just as good for them as apples are? They're not. I'm
not
> keeping my kids ignorant of what foods are and what they're good for.
I'm
> keeping them relatively ignorant of shame and of what it feels like to be
tol
> d what and where and how to eat every meal of the day.

Hmmmm. OK, and no I didn't think you were saying "PUT DOWN THAT APPLE!
Here have a tootsie roll!" I didn't really think of it that way. I get a
half star here....I'm probably more involved in 'what' she eats than you,
but the when and where....there's a lot of flexibility in those...although
yogurt and oatmeal have been banned in the playroom....the carpet was
getting pretty grimy.

>
> -=-Can I stay if I take some and leave some?-=-
>
> It that weren't the case, nobody could stay.

Good. I think I'll listen more and talk less for a bit....

Aimee

Paul Bogush

> > How about bedtimes? Can I set the time she goes in?
>
> I never have. She goes to bed when she's tired, just like the rest of us
> do. We're probably one of the few families in America who have never had
> a fight over bedtime...

We don't generally fight about it either. She gets to read or play in bed
and she often falls asleep doing so. At our house though some of us don't
go to bed when we are tired....we stay up on the computer or reading or
watching TV <gasp, smile> and need someone to urge us into bed. If she's
really into something and wants to, she can stay up a little longer and we
just turn off the light at the same time...so it's like trading the in bed
reading/playing time for whatever she was doing. Probably more parental
involvement here on our part than some of you. (but, that's OK I tell the
woman in the mirror, smile)


>
> >And
> > chores, you say no to those too...so after dinner, when my child
> > asks to beexcused <gasp! still unlearning, still deciding what of all
> of this
> > I'll take and what I'll leave, but yes I did say "asks to be excused"
> gasp
> > again!> and I say "sure, please take your dishes in to the kitchen"
> > , it's a 'bad' thing?
>
> Neither of us ask to be excused, we might say "excuse me". OTOH, I have
> asked her to bring her dishes into the kitchen, or to make a "dish run"
> and round up any other dishes left in the living room, or carry a basket
> full of laundry to the bedroom since she's going there... and she rarely
> says no and if so, there's a good reason. I think the key is ask,
> though... she certainly could say no, but she doesn't... we're just used
> to working together and helping each other.

Yep, it's a request, and she does once in a while say, 'no thank you', but
she usually does bring them in. The asking to leave the table thing...oh,
that's just so bred into us! Hmmmm....I'll think on letting that go...
It's only instituted during dinner...other meals/snacks she can generally
come and go as she pleases....hmmmm....

>
>
> > I had a miscarriage in 99, my DD was 1 1/2. In the aftermath of that
> event
> > she watched LOTS more tv (videos, we don't have cable) than ever
> > before...she'd watch a couple of hours a day, as opposed to a half hour
> > every couple of days. I noticed a HUGE decline in her ability to
> engage in
> > activities herself. She had never before been 'bored' and now she'd
> walk
> > around the house, see nothing that interested her and ask to watch
> > tv.
>
> Do you think that that might have had more to do with your being in a
> state of grief and perhaps less available than formerly? Ah, wait, I see
> that you dismiss this idea farther down - but why? It makes a lot of
> sense to me. It could also be part of the process of learning to
> self-regulate, like when kids who have never been allowed to eat more
> than one piece of candy are suddenly able to eat all they want, they
> often stuff themselves silly, since that's what everyone has expected
> that they will do all of their lives if they were given that freedom.
> Freedom often takes some getting used to.

Yes. Could be it. Maybe if it had continued she would have turned them off
herself. I'm not sure why I blame the TV solely...as I said to Sandra...I
might not be willing to admit that grief got in the way....that I wasn't
'there' for her... But, it was a very interesting time...

>
> It also sounds like pretty typical 1 1/2 yr old developmental stuff,
> especially is you were starting to expect her to do chores at that age.
> :-/

Oh! I think you have the wrong picture here....chores is a very broad
word.... I wasn't asking her to chop wood (we heat with it) or make her bed
so I could bounce a quarter off it! It was (what I consider)
developmentally appropriate stuff...like, here Em, help mommy put away all
your sand toys back in the sand box before we go back inside.... She'd
throw herself on the ground and scream during the TV binge time and hadn't
done that prior to it. Yes, yes, yes...there could have been other
influences, coincidentally occuring at the same time.... But, don't think
she had a chore list and I was freaking out because she wasn't doing them
while saying "Yes, m'am".

>
> > And you never ask your kids to pick up
> > their mess or are you talking only about their rooms? If DD cuts up a
> piece
> > of paper into hundreds of tiny pieces of paper on the dining room
> floor and
> > walks away....can't I later ask her to pick them up?
>
> Sure you can ask, as long as it's asking and not commanding. Often people
> say ask when they mean command. Asking implies that the answer could be
> no...

Ask means ask for me. Commands are only used in emergency safety
issues...like "STOP!" when she runs at top speed along the top of the
playground equipment toward the unprotected edge over which she'd drop to
certain injury....used very rarely and mostly during that scarey time when
she could walk and run all over but had no sense of what would happen if she
plummeted.... We generally think it's better to fall out of tree and break
an arm than to never climb a tree...but we do have some limits to this.
Anyway, yes, generally she's asked...sometimes, if I need the house picked
up (so I can impress people with how clean it is, as if no one actually
lives here) then it's less negotiable....but I always help her if it's
possible and she wants help.

>
> > We have always talked
> > about healthy v. non healthy foods. It's OK to eat non healthy foods,
> but
> > not all the time...it's the healthy foods that help us grow and stay
> > fit. It was wrong to say this? It's the truth (as I see it...you may
> > disagree)
>
> I think it's a kind of simplistic truth.

Yes, but it worked really well when she was 1 1/2. We do talk more now
about energy levels, but we haven't reached the point of researching carbs.
She's only 3 1/2 and it's really not a big issue for her. She gets the junk
at her granparents' or friends' houses and occasionally at ours or at a
restaurant. She doesn't have to beg for stuff so it's just not a big deal.
She knows grandma susie has the sweet cereal and at home she always asks for
a bagel (multigrain/organic....but she doesn't know that, she just knows she
likes them).

I have also noticed that she tends to get emotionally
> overwrought more easily if she hasn't had food in a while, especially
> protein... my brother was like this as a kid, so I'm a little familiar
> with it, although I can go a day without eating and not feel any ill
> effects.So, I've spent years now trying to point out the connection and
> she's pretty good now about grabbing some food when she's feeling that
> way... of course, it's not a sure thing, sometimes she doesn't eat for
> hours and is fine, but if she does feel sad for no reason it's often a
> clue..

Yes! THis happens to both my DD and I. Hubby can go for hours and hours
without eating and be fine!

THanks for your input,
Aimee

Lucie Caunter

I find that giving freedom of choice to my sons as been much harder on us as
parents. We had to be conscious of leading by example and think twice about
our own choices.
And then there are chores! A very inadequate word when living in a familly
community. How about familly participation in familly affairs, like washing
clothes, dishes, bathrooms, vehicles ect... cleaning and organizing home,
cooking, shopping, budget and so on. How would they learn to do these things
for themselves if they don't do them first with us?
Am I the only one feeling that way?
Lucie, mother of three young men
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschooling vs. unparenting


>
> In a message dated 11/19/01 5:02:04 PM, pamhartley@... writes:
>
> << I don't think NOT feeling it's necessary to require chores, bedtimes,
> family
> mealtimes, limits or bans on certain foods, respect for others, limits on
TV
> and Nintendo, etc. is abandoning parental responsibilities.
> >>
>
> Diagramming that sentence would be like playing Twister!
> (I'm not going to do either one.)
>
> I'm used to people outside of unschooling discussions accusing me of
> abandoning parental responsibilities. I know there was a token
> justification in the original paragraph, but the use of the phrase
> "abandoning parental responsibilities" suggests to me that there are
people
> on the list who just think that giving children freedom of choice is
> irresponsible.
>
> That's disappointing.
>
> Sandra
>
>
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>
>

[email protected]

Hmm...What if everyone in the house said 'no thank you' to doing the
dishes? You would have a pretty messy house pretty soon. If a child
lives in the home and gets all the benefits of being in the home, why
shouldn't the child do his/her fair share of the housework? Is it
fair to let one (or two) people do all of the housework?

> Yep, it's a request, and she does once in a while say, 'no thank
you', but

> > Sure you can ask, as long as it's asking and not commanding.
Often people
> > say ask when they mean command. Asking implies that the answer
could be
> > no...

So if your child never cleans up his food or throws away his trash
and a social worker comes into your home and asks why the house is
unsanitary, are you just going to say, "Oh, he decided he didn't want
to clean up after himself"?

Sheila

[email protected]

> So if your child never cleans up his food or throws away his trash
> and a social worker comes into your home and asks why the house is
> unsanitary, are you just going to say, "Oh, he decided he didn't
> want
> to clean up after himself"?

It's been my experience here that my son emulates the behavior he always
sees.
My husband and I pick up after ourselves, so does our son.
We take dishes to the sink and rinse them, so does he.
We clean up when someone's coming over, ( scrape up at least one layer of
cat and dog hair ) so does he.

Children learn by example. If they are shown the bad example, they learn
the bad example. Same with the good.

I don't think children who live in a house where big people are happy to
do their part, are going to be any less happy to do theirs. Sandra has
said modeling, creativity and joy are a factor, and I believe this is
true.

Why would a child want to live in a dump any more than an adult would?

Deb L

Lucie Caunter

I don't think it is wrong to limit the amount of candy anyone would eat in
one sitting? I guess it's the unspocken example that work in our familly. I
won't eat more than two candies, or cookies, or sweet for desert, so the
children don't either.
But , we are learning , aren't we. The benefit of this group is that it
provides ideas of different possibilities. In the end ,we are the one
living with the consequance of our own choices. Educating ourselves about
possibilities may help us make better choices. You take what you need, the
rest may be for someone else.
Lucie, mother of three young men
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Bogush <shaggyhill@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:57 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschooling vs. unparenting


> "whose mind, not who's"
> :)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Paul Bogush <shaggyhill@...>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 10:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschooling vs. unparenting
>
>
> > Hi,
> > I'm new....I'm still unlearning....I'm also in a fragile state due to
> recent
> > personal tragedies....but I'm trying, so please go easy on me....
> >
> > For clarification sake, what you (the general group, from what I've read
> so
> > far) seem to saying is that I shouldn't restrict things like TV, junk
> foods,
> > messiness.... How about bedtimes? Can I set the time she goes in? And
> > chores, you say no to those too...so after dinner, when my child asks to
> be
> > excused <gasp! still unlearning, still deciding what of all of this
I'll
> > take and what I'll leave, but yes I did say "asks to be excused" gasp
> > again!> and I say "sure, please take your dishes in to the kitchen" ,
it's
> a
> > 'bad' thing? So much of what I learned and the way I was brought up has
> to
> > be thrown out the window....stuff I just thought was helping kids learn
> > manners, being responsible, etc. (My mom decided hair length on my
> > college-aged brother.)
> >
> > A couple of questions/comments....
> >
> > I had a miscarriage in 99, my DD was 1 1/2. In the aftermath of that
> event
> > she watched LOTS more tv (videos, we don't have cable) than ever
> > before...she'd watch a couple of hours a day, as opposed to a half hour
> > every couple of days. I noticed a HUGE decline in her ability to engage
> in
> > activities herself. She had never before been 'bored' and now she'd
walk
> > around the house, see nothing that interested her and ask to watch tv.
> > Prior to this she'd have gotten engaged in any number of things...from
> water
> > play, to toys, to books, etc. Her imagination seemed to be put on hold.
> > Her behavior also changed. She was suddenly unable to cope with
everyday
> > minor things...they'd throw her into a tailspin....she also became
> > uncooperative (alright, maybe we were asking her to do a chore...). I
was
> > amazed to see the changes in her and I considered them negative
> > changes....so soon after we went back to limited video viewing and her
> > imagination seemed to kick in again. But, you're telling me that if she
> > wants to watch videos, I should let her watch them...all day if that's
> what
> > she wants.... (Please don't write all of this off by saying that my
> > emotional state could have been the sole cause of her changes in
> > behavior....) And what about the types of videos? Do I get any say in
> what
> > she watches? She's 3 1/2, btw. And you never ask your kids to pick up
> > their mess or are you talking only about their rooms? If DD cuts up a
> piece
> > of paper into hundreds of tiny pieces of paper on the dining room floor
> and
> > walks away....can't I later ask her to pick them up? Or do I have to
wait
> > for 'natural' consequences to kick in...
> >
> > Also, why is it a bad thing if we grow, raise, purchase, cook, and
provide
> > for our family healthy, wholesome, organic foods? I work really hard to
do
> > this! DD usually (unless the day is out of control altogether) gets to
> > decide what she wants for breakfast, lunch, and snacks from what we have
> in
> > the house. On occasion she decides dinner and/or will make dessert.
She
> > has a bagel...everyday almost. She has grilled cheese....everyday
almost.
> > She gets up on the counter and looks in the cabinets or in the fridge
for
> > snacks/drinks. She can select anything....all of it is fairly to very
> > healthy. She and her dad go for doughnuts on Saturday mornings as a
> > treat....they also share twizzlers from time to time. I did restrict
> > Halloween candy....she could have two pieces after she at her meal
<gasp!>
> > but then the dog ate all the rest so that was that. We have always
talked
> > about healthy v. non healthy foods. It's OK to eat non healthy foods,
but
> > not all the time...it's the healthy foods that help us grow and stay
fit.
> > It was wrong to say this? It's the truth (as I see it...you may
disagree)
> > Hmmmm, I have some difficulty applying unschooling across the board....I
> > look forward to continuing to 'listen' to your conversations....this is
> all
> > so very interesting to me....
> >
> > Can I stay if I take some and leave some?
> >
> > Aimee
> > "who's mind is being awakened"
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <ddzimlew@...>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 7:49 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschooling vs. unparenting
> >
> >
> > > > I am curious about exactly what real families you know who don't
> > > > require...
> > > chores..., etc. do or
> > > > don't do
> > > > that you attribute to abandoning parental responsibilities.
> > >
> > >
> > > I'm curious too. How does having control really make someone a more
> > > responsible parent?
> > > Deb L
> > >
> > > > If one person says, "I limit television so my children won't spend
> > > > all day
> > > > stuck in front of a box" and another person says, "I don't limit
> > > > television
> > > > and my children don't spend all day stuck in front of a box", I'm
> > > > not real
> > > > clear on why some would think the first option more parentally
> > > > responsible
> > > > than the second.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> > >
> > > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> > >
> > > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> > Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
> >
> > To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> > http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
> >
> > Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> > http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Fetteroll

on 11/20/01 10:53 AM, Paul Bogush at shaggyhill@... wrote:

> For clarification sake, what you (the general group, from what I've read so
> far) seem to saying is that I shouldn't restrict things like TV, junk foods,
> messiness....

No, but we are saying the these things don't cause the problems that parents
who restrict them fear they will.

Don't think of what's said as a new set of rules, but a new way of living
with your child. More as her partner in her discovery of the world rather
than her leader or trainer.

> How about bedtimes? Can I set the time she goes in?

What are your reasons for having a set bedtime? What do you fear will happen
if she stays up as late as she wants?

Some parents who like an hour or two alone together in the evening say it
works well if they suggest a time the kids head to their rooms to read or
listen to tapes or whatever.

You can suggest it, but I suspect at 3 1/2 she won't want to be alone.

If you give her freedom, be prepared for her to run wild with it. She'll
disregard how tired she is and want to stay up as late as possible. (Same
with anything that's been controlled and restricted.) Eventually she'll get
back in touch with how her body feels and know she doesn't have to grasp as
much night as she can before it's controlled again.

> stuff I just thought was helping kids learn
> manners, being responsible, etc.

How long does it actually take to learn manners? People seem to think it
takes 18 full years of training ;-) But if we treat them the way we'd like
them to treat us and others, then they'll learn. They'll want others to feel
as nice as our being respectful does to them. (It will take some kids longer
than others.)

> Please don't write all of this off by saying that my
> emotional state could have been the sole cause of her changes in
> behavior....

Probably not the sole cause, but I bet it's a good part of it. I suspect you
weren't as engaged with her as you had been. Kids are sensitive to moods and
the way they react isn't necessarily how we expect them to. As others said,
she was also discovering something new, exploring something heretofor
restricted. I also remember my daughter at 2 wanted to watch 101 Dalmations
over and over and over in a day, so there's the age factor.

But is an adverse reaction really a bad thing? Isn't that our body's way of
talking to us? And isn't ignoring it part of mastering our bodies? If she
never gets to experience those feelings how will she learn to recognize it
when her body is saying it needs a change of pace?

If you see her getting cranky or whatever, you can suggest a new activity
that's better than TV like a trip to the playground or the store or doing
something with you in the house. She may turn it down, but offer
periodically (not nag) so she has the opportunity to experience how
something new affects her body. She may need to watch for a while. She may
need several opportunities doing something different to see the connection.

> And what about the types of videos? Do I get any say in what
> she watches?

What do you think she'd watch if you didn't restrict? What effects do you
think they'd have on her?

My daughter can watch anything she wants and she chooses what interests her
and what she feels comfortable with which isn't beyond the bounds of what I
would have chosen for her. (Well, asthetically speaking I don't think I'd
choose Ed, Edd and Eddie ;-)

You, of course, do have a "say" since you won't be taking her into an adult
video store to pick something out, but you probably won't send her down the
grownup drama aisle either. But not because they would be bad for her but
just because they'd bore her silly. (Though my daughter was fascinated by
all 3 hours of Dances with Wolves at 5 or 6 so you never know!)

So your "say" is to help her find the types of things that would interest
her.

> Or do I have to wait
> for 'natural' consequences to kick in...

Quite frankly there rarely are natural consequences to the kids for avoiding
chores. Do kids care if the living room floor can't be walked through? Do
they care if the toilet or tub is dirty? Do they care if there aren't any
clean dishes in the house? (They'd probably, rightly from their point of
view, suggest paper plates ;-) From *their* point of view it makes a lot
more sense if the toys are kept out where they can easily be played with.

Kids *do* have different points of view. The things they care about *are*
different. We don't need to train them to care. Time will take care of that
-- *if* you're thinking of them taking care of themselves as adults. If
you're thinking of them caring about how the house looks, don't hold your
breath ;-) We *think* we provide them with a home and they should care about
it's upkeep. But we don't. We provide them with what *we* want to give them.
It's ours, not theirs. If it was theirs, they'd get a say in how it was
decorated and what state of cleanliness (or not) was acceptable.

If you help them pick up, if you ask for help (and allow one of the answers
to be no thanks without anger), kids will pitch in.

As for their rooms, would you want your daughter deciding when you should
clean your room and to what state of cleanliness? It might be cute the first
time ;-) but it would get old pretty quick. Especially if you didn't see the
reason for the standards she was imposing. When you feel the urge to clean
it you can ask her if she doesn't mind if you straighten up. If she doesn't
have to help, I bet she will at least for a while.

> Also, why is it a bad thing if we grow, raise, purchase, cook, and provide
> for our family healthy, wholesome, organic foods? I work really hard to do
> this!

I think it's helpful to see this as something you want to give to your
family not something that they are asking for and must have. They will
survive on junk. You want to offer take the time and effort to offer them
something better. If you talk about why you make the choices you do rather
than why your daughter needs to eat in such and such a way -- as it sounds
like you do -- then she'll understand the reasoning behind your choices.
That won't necessarily mean she'll agree for herself. She might need to try
things out for her self. (That's the heart of unschooling anyway ;-) But
there's a difference between freely exploring and rebelling from control.
The second is often done not because the child necessarily wants to but just
because it's forbidden.

Joyce


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Hartley

> Hmm...What if everyone in the house said 'no thank you' to doing the
> dishes? You would have a pretty messy house pretty soon. If a child
> lives in the home and gets all the benefits of being in the home, why
> shouldn't the child do his/her fair share of the housework? Is it
> fair to let one (or two) people do all of the housework?
>
and
>
> So if your child never cleans up his food or throws away his trash
> and a social worker comes into your home and asks why the house is
> unsanitary, are you just going to say, "Oh, he decided he didn't want
> to clean up after himself"?

This is like saying, "what if you let your child play with a ball anytime he
wanted and he took it and beat the neighbor to death with it?" If that
happened, it wouldn't be about the ball or playing therewith.

If a family is waist-deep in filth, I don't think the cure is assigning a
chore list with punishments for not doing them.

Nobody is portraying their family as Mom and Dad, Serfs and Children, Lords
of All They Survey. My family helps each other, without the need for rules
that say to do that. As a family, we all clean some on our own. We're
willing to clean or help to clean if another person asks us to.

Our house is neater than the average homeschooling families' I know. This
isn't due to anything other than the fact I like to clean. When I'm
stressed, I'm very likely to organize a drawer or do a load of laundry.
Creating order in my universe calms me.

But even with that, I know other families who have our basic cleaning
philosophy and social workers aren't lining up outside their door.

A toddler will want to get hold of the dishrag, and will be incredibly proud
of herself when she throws away her first piece of trash. In my experience,
this desire to be part of the family and do what the rest of the family is
doing does not wane with age, unless we purposely stamp it out.

Pam

Bridget

Can anyone but me see that there is a reason why a relative newcomer
would have worded that that way?

Bridget

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Tia Leschke <leschke@i...> wrote:
>
> >How about bedtimes? Can I set the time she goes in?
>
> Sounds like you're asking permission. <g>
>

Vicki A. Dennis

> If a child
> lives in the home and gets all the benefits of >being in the home, why
> shouldn't the child do his/her fair share of the >housework? Is it
> fair to let one (or two) people do all of the housework?
>

Sometimes the question of fairness is not in who does what but in who gets to
decide :-). Is it fair for one (or two) to decide how much the benefits are
worth in terms of work? Or to decide for everyone else what (and when) a "fair
share" occurs? I like to think that one benefit of being a family working
together is that everyone has input regarding what "counts".

vicki

Paul Bogush

Shelia,
> Hmm...What if everyone in the house said 'no thank you' to doing the
> dishes? You would have a pretty messy house pretty soon. If a child
> lives in the home and gets all the benefits of being in the home, why
> shouldn't the child do his/her fair share of the housework? Is it
> fair to let one (or two) people do all of the housework?
This is what has been running through my head at times. But, the situation
is that she usually does bring her dishes in...almost every night...she
hasn't said no in a very long time...and you know what? Sometimes I don't
bring mine in either....I'm so tired, I just wait until morning. Or I bring
them in and leave them in the sink until morning....they eventually get
done. In our case I don't think we'd get to social services
intervening....WAY before that our medium tolerance for crap everywhere
would have caused us to clean up...or I would step out of unschooling and
say, "What a minute!!! I can't live like this!!! What can we do?" I'm
starting to see that for my family it doesn't have to be so incredibly
rigid. And around here, if I need help with the dishes I get it.... If DH
needs it with the farm, he gets it... If DD needs it with cleaning up the
playroom or reading etc. she gets it. It's just been working that way.

It is true for me...what someone else said....I did my time leaving other
people's messes around waiting for them to clean them up. I'd just stew and
stew about it. If I clean them up or just ASK them to clean them up...well,
the results have been better. Or, when someone says "where are the
scissors?" and we can't find them....that's a lesson on it's own.

Aimee


----- Original Message -----
From: <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:01 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschooling vs. unparenting


> Hmm...What if everyone in the house said 'no thank you' to doing the
> dishes? You would have a pretty messy house pretty soon. If a child
> lives in the home and gets all the benefits of being in the home, why
> shouldn't the child do his/her fair share of the housework? Is it
> fair to let one (or two) people do all of the housework?
>
> > Yep, it's a request, and she does once in a while say, 'no thank
> you', but
>
> > > Sure you can ask, as long as it's asking and not commanding.
> Often people
> > > say ask when they mean command. Asking implies that the answer
> could be
> > > no...
>
> So if your child never cleans up his food or throws away his trash
> and a social worker comes into your home and asks why the house is
> unsanitary, are you just going to say, "Oh, he decided he didn't want
> to clean up after himself"?
>
> Sheila
>
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Paul Bogush

Hmmm....lots of this makes sense to me....Thanks Joyce,
Aimee

----- Original Message -----
From: Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2001 2:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: unschooling vs. unparenting


> on 11/20/01 10:53 AM, Paul Bogush at shaggyhill@... wrote:
>
> > For clarification sake, what you (the general group, from what I've read
so
> > far) seem to saying is that I shouldn't restrict things like TV, junk
foods,
> > messiness....
>
> No, but we are saying the these things don't cause the problems that
parents
> who restrict them fear they will.
>
> Don't think of what's said as a new set of rules, but a new way of living
> with your child. More as her partner in her discovery of the world rather
> than her leader or trainer.
>
> > How about bedtimes? Can I set the time she goes in?
>
> What are your reasons for having a set bedtime? What do you fear will
happen
> if she stays up as late as she wants?
>
> Some parents who like an hour or two alone together in the evening say it
> works well if they suggest a time the kids head to their rooms to read or
> listen to tapes or whatever.
>
> You can suggest it, but I suspect at 3 1/2 she won't want to be alone.
>
> If you give her freedom, be prepared for her to run wild with it. She'll
> disregard how tired she is and want to stay up as late as possible. (Same
> with anything that's been controlled and restricted.) Eventually she'll
get
> back in touch with how her body feels and know she doesn't have to grasp
as
> much night as she can before it's controlled again.
>
> > stuff I just thought was helping kids learn
> > manners, being responsible, etc.
>
> How long does it actually take to learn manners? People seem to think it
> takes 18 full years of training ;-) But if we treat them the way we'd like
> them to treat us and others, then they'll learn. They'll want others to
feel
> as nice as our being respectful does to them. (It will take some kids
longer
> than others.)
>
> > Please don't write all of this off by saying that my
> > emotional state could have been the sole cause of her changes in
> > behavior....
>
> Probably not the sole cause, but I bet it's a good part of it. I suspect
you
> weren't as engaged with her as you had been. Kids are sensitive to moods
and
> the way they react isn't necessarily how we expect them to. As others
said,
> she was also discovering something new, exploring something heretofor
> restricted. I also remember my daughter at 2 wanted to watch 101
Dalmations
> over and over and over in a day, so there's the age factor.
>
> But is an adverse reaction really a bad thing? Isn't that our body's way
of
> talking to us? And isn't ignoring it part of mastering our bodies? If she
> never gets to experience those feelings how will she learn to recognize it
> when her body is saying it needs a change of pace?
>
> If you see her getting cranky or whatever, you can suggest a new activity
> that's better than TV like a trip to the playground or the store or doing
> something with you in the house. She may turn it down, but offer
> periodically (not nag) so she has the opportunity to experience how
> something new affects her body. She may need to watch for a while. She may
> need several opportunities doing something different to see the
connection.
>
> > And what about the types of videos? Do I get any say in what
> > she watches?
>
> What do you think she'd watch if you didn't restrict? What effects do you
> think they'd have on her?
>
> My daughter can watch anything she wants and she chooses what interests
her
> and what she feels comfortable with which isn't beyond the bounds of what
I
> would have chosen for her. (Well, asthetically speaking I don't think I'd
> choose Ed, Edd and Eddie ;-)
>
> You, of course, do have a "say" since you won't be taking her into an
adult
> video store to pick something out, but you probably won't send her down
the
> grownup drama aisle either. But not because they would be bad for her but
> just because they'd bore her silly. (Though my daughter was fascinated by
> all 3 hours of Dances with Wolves at 5 or 6 so you never know!)
>
> So your "say" is to help her find the types of things that would interest
> her.
>
> > Or do I have to wait
> > for 'natural' consequences to kick in...
>
> Quite frankly there rarely are natural consequences to the kids for
avoiding
> chores. Do kids care if the living room floor can't be walked through? Do
> they care if the toilet or tub is dirty? Do they care if there aren't any
> clean dishes in the house? (They'd probably, rightly from their point of
> view, suggest paper plates ;-) From *their* point of view it makes a lot
> more sense if the toys are kept out where they can easily be played with.
>
> Kids *do* have different points of view. The things they care about *are*
> different. We don't need to train them to care. Time will take care of
that
> -- *if* you're thinking of them taking care of themselves as adults. If
> you're thinking of them caring about how the house looks, don't hold your
> breath ;-) We *think* we provide them with a home and they should care
about
> it's upkeep. But we don't. We provide them with what *we* want to give
them.
> It's ours, not theirs. If it was theirs, they'd get a say in how it was
> decorated and what state of cleanliness (or not) was acceptable.
>
> If you help them pick up, if you ask for help (and allow one of the
answers
> to be no thanks without anger), kids will pitch in.
>
> As for their rooms, would you want your daughter deciding when you should
> clean your room and to what state of cleanliness? It might be cute the
first
> time ;-) but it would get old pretty quick. Especially if you didn't see
the
> reason for the standards she was imposing. When you feel the urge to clean
> it you can ask her if she doesn't mind if you straighten up. If she
doesn't
> have to help, I bet she will at least for a while.
>
> > Also, why is it a bad thing if we grow, raise, purchase, cook, and
provide
> > for our family healthy, wholesome, organic foods? I work really hard to
do
> > this!
>
> I think it's helpful to see this as something you want to give to your
> family not something that they are asking for and must have. They will
> survive on junk. You want to offer take the time and effort to offer them
> something better. If you talk about why you make the choices you do rather
> than why your daughter needs to eat in such and such a way -- as it sounds
> like you do -- then she'll understand the reasoning behind your choices.
> That won't necessarily mean she'll agree for herself. She might need to
try
> things out for her self. (That's the heart of unschooling anyway ;-) But
> there's a difference between freely exploring and rebelling from control.
> The second is often done not because the child necessarily wants to but
just
> because it's forbidden.
>
> Joyce
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>