Catching up... FWIW... GWS and HEM
Helen Hegener
At 1:27 AM +0000 10/31/01, [email protected] wrote:
We'll miss seeing GWS in the mailbox - it was somehow comforting to
know HEM wasn't the only homeschool magazine with a distinctly
unschooling slant. Now we're feeling somewhat alone and vulnerable,
wondering if the demise of our companion publication should be seen
as some kind of wake-up call or something. If they, with their
incredible legacy from John himself, couldn't make it, what's going
to keep HEM afloat?
GWS had much more going for it than our little publication has. Not
just the long history and the still-tremendous name recognition of
John Holt, but GWS has been reviewed and praised by some of the top
mainstream media over the years. Pat Farenga, who took over when John
passed away in 1985, is a very popular conference speaker and a savvy
businessman. If he thinks it's time to quit fighting the good fight
what does that mean we should do?
I'll be honest: I'm concerned about many indicators. I'm concerned
about the rapid growth of public school "outreach" programs
masquerading as some perversion of homeschooling (there's even one
right here in our hometown of Tonasket, run by a long-time family
friend - and no, I don't want to go into details...). I'm concerned
about the proliferation of cyberschools and programs like Bennett's
K-12; I wonder how true friends of homeschooling like Pat
Montgomery's Clonlara School and the Williams' Oak Meadow School are
faring in the wake of those newcomers. I'm concerned about signs that
"one right way" to homeschool is being advocated by some pretty
strong forces with political clout... oldtimers and regular HEM
readers will know who I mean. I'm not trying to be scary - I'll save
that for Halloween - but it worries me that so many people have been
so well prepared to change the face of homeschooling into something
unrecognizable to many of us.
I'm concerned about all the various ways homeschooling and
unschooling as we know it are being co-opted and changed and
reconfigured to suit a changing world... On the one hand I can see
and understand the natural progression of events (hindsight is always
20/20), while on the other hand I have to wonder what it all means,
and how we - as a fairly radical do-your-own-thing publication, fit
into the picture.
Some days, when I'm feeling less than optimistic, I worry about our
publishing future, too.
Helen
>Message: 8Ah, Caren, thank you for the vote of confidence. That's what keeps us going.
> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:45:48 -0000
> From: carenkh@...
>Subject: Re: GWS
>
>Yep - you can go to http://www.holtgws.com There is an order form
>there, and also a 1-800 number to call. I know it's true that the
>old stuff is just as good...there's just something fulfilling in
>seeing a new magazine in the mailbox. I feel the same way about
>Mothering magazine...sometimes it's the same stuff rehashed, but I
>still feel support from seeing it in print. On to HEM!
We'll miss seeing GWS in the mailbox - it was somehow comforting to
know HEM wasn't the only homeschool magazine with a distinctly
unschooling slant. Now we're feeling somewhat alone and vulnerable,
wondering if the demise of our companion publication should be seen
as some kind of wake-up call or something. If they, with their
incredible legacy from John himself, couldn't make it, what's going
to keep HEM afloat?
GWS had much more going for it than our little publication has. Not
just the long history and the still-tremendous name recognition of
John Holt, but GWS has been reviewed and praised by some of the top
mainstream media over the years. Pat Farenga, who took over when John
passed away in 1985, is a very popular conference speaker and a savvy
businessman. If he thinks it's time to quit fighting the good fight
what does that mean we should do?
I'll be honest: I'm concerned about many indicators. I'm concerned
about the rapid growth of public school "outreach" programs
masquerading as some perversion of homeschooling (there's even one
right here in our hometown of Tonasket, run by a long-time family
friend - and no, I don't want to go into details...). I'm concerned
about the proliferation of cyberschools and programs like Bennett's
K-12; I wonder how true friends of homeschooling like Pat
Montgomery's Clonlara School and the Williams' Oak Meadow School are
faring in the wake of those newcomers. I'm concerned about signs that
"one right way" to homeschool is being advocated by some pretty
strong forces with political clout... oldtimers and regular HEM
readers will know who I mean. I'm not trying to be scary - I'll save
that for Halloween - but it worries me that so many people have been
so well prepared to change the face of homeschooling into something
unrecognizable to many of us.
I'm concerned about all the various ways homeschooling and
unschooling as we know it are being co-opted and changed and
reconfigured to suit a changing world... On the one hand I can see
and understand the natural progression of events (hindsight is always
20/20), while on the other hand I have to wonder what it all means,
and how we - as a fairly radical do-your-own-thing publication, fit
into the picture.
Some days, when I'm feeling less than optimistic, I worry about our
publishing future, too.
Helen
Elizabeth Hill
Helen Hegener wrote:
I believe that people in the public school homeschooly programs won't all stay
there forever. Many of them will bust loose and become independent
homeschoolers.
Am I wrong? Are local homeschooling groups seeing shrinkage? I have heard,
from friends in Washington, that the programs offered are pretty appealing.
(Much better than some places that offer only "school in a can".)
I know money is a lure keeping them "in", but lack of information also keeps
some of them there.
If it was feasible to donate one old copy of HEM to every public school
"outreach" program, maybe a few more people would jump the fence and bolt to
freedom.
(Of course, I'd like to see it in dentist's waiting rooms around the country,
too.)
Betsy
>Hi, Helen --
> I'll be honest: I'm concerned about many indicators. I'm concerned
> about the rapid growth of public school "outreach" programs
> masquerading as some perversion of homeschooling (there's even one
> right here in our hometown of Tonasket, run by a long-time family
> friend - and no, I don't want to go into details...). I'm concerned
> about the proliferation of cyberschools and programs like Bennett's
> K-12;
I believe that people in the public school homeschooly programs won't all stay
there forever. Many of them will bust loose and become independent
homeschoolers.
Am I wrong? Are local homeschooling groups seeing shrinkage? I have heard,
from friends in Washington, that the programs offered are pretty appealing.
(Much better than some places that offer only "school in a can".)
I know money is a lure keeping them "in", but lack of information also keeps
some of them there.
If it was feasible to donate one old copy of HEM to every public school
"outreach" program, maybe a few more people would jump the fence and bolt to
freedom.
(Of course, I'd like to see it in dentist's waiting rooms around the country,
too.)
Betsy
Helen Hegener
At 8:21 AM -0800 10/31/01, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
almost nothing. Homeschooling groups in my home state (Alaska) are
almost non-existent due to a particularly aggressive and effective
program of co-opting homeschool families back into the school system.
don't have is enough staff or help to get them into the hands of
people who need them. Think small, struggling, just keeping our heads
above water publication... a big glossy well-financed operation we're
not.
Helen
>I believe that people in the public school homeschooly programs won't all staySome will, but from what anecdotal evidence we've been able to find most won't.
>there forever. Many of them will bust loose and become independent
>homeschoolers.
>Am I wrong? Are local homeschooling groups seeing shrinkage? I have heard,Some homeschooling groups in this state (WA) have seen shrinkage to
>from friends in Washington, that the programs offered are pretty appealing.
>(Much better than some places that offer only "school in a can".)
almost nothing. Homeschooling groups in my home state (Alaska) are
almost non-existent due to a particularly aggressive and effective
program of co-opting homeschool families back into the school system.
>I know money is a lure keeping them "in", but lack of information also keepsWe have the copies, and we're willing to make the donations. What we
>some of them there.
>
>If it was feasible to donate one old copy of HEM to every public school
>"outreach" program, maybe a few more people would jump the fence and bolt to
>freedom.
don't have is enough staff or help to get them into the hands of
people who need them. Think small, struggling, just keeping our heads
above water publication... a big glossy well-financed operation we're
not.
>(Of course, I'd like to see it in dentist's waiting rooms around the country,Indeed! Wouldn't that be nice? <G>
>too.)
Helen
Tia Leschke
>And at least some public system hs programs let families access the
>I believe that people in the public school homeschooly programs won't all stay
>there forever. Many of them will bust loose and become independent
>homeschoolers.
"goodies" with less monitoring than some states require for independent
hs. We've been with a program in BC for 7 years now that requires only a
very brief report 3 times a year. I'm talking the , "We had a conversation
about the immune system for science" type of report. Yes, it's a tiny bit
more than what I'd have to do as a "real" hs in BC, which would be to just
register. It's also less than *every* hs has to do in Alberta and some of
our other provinces. And it's less than "real" hs in many states have to
do, even though they're labelled independent. It takes me maybe an hour at
most. I really don't mind paying for the computer and internet access plus
an extra $200 to spend on almost anything we want to with 3 hours of my
time each year.
I don't change *anything* about the way I homeschool in order to please
them. There has been no problem at all with the fact that my son didn't
read until age 12 and still doesn't read well at 14. The online teacher is
available to help if I want it, which I don't. No problem.
I'm well aware of the antagonism many hs have toward public programs, but I
just don't see the problem. Many people use them for a while, while they
get their bearings. Many use them for the money or equipment they can
get. I would hope that all, as I do, work toward keeping the laws for
"real" homeschoolers as unintrusive as possible, so that there will always
be that option to step back to.
>Am I wrong? Are local homeschooling groups seeing shrinkage? I have heard,Most of the people using public hs programs in BC also join their local
>from friends in Washington, that the programs offered are pretty appealing.
>(Much better than some places that offer only "school in a can".)
group. I know many of the families in our local hs group are using public
programs, either the one we use or the more intrusive correspondance course
the government provides. We certainly make no distinction in our group
between those who use these programs and those who don't. Some of the most
radical unschoolers in our group are using the one we're with.
>I know money is a lure keeping them "in", but lack of information also keepsI got a lot of calls from new and prospective hs when I was the
>some of them there.
subscription person for our newsletter. I always told them about all their
options, and the reasons they might want to choose one over the other for
their family. I've always been a believer in lots of educational options.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Lynda
It is here in CA also. The charter schools are gobbling up homeschoolers at
a tremendous rate. Also, some of the charter schools are now doing drop in
satellite schools and I've seen about 5 families leave for that this year up
here in the boonies.
Lynda
a tremendous rate. Also, some of the charter schools are now doing drop in
satellite schools and I've seen about 5 families leave for that this year up
here in the boonies.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:24 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Catching up... FWIW... GWS and HEM
> At 8:21 AM -0800 10/31/01, Elizabeth Hill wrote:
> >I believe that people in the public school homeschooly programs won't all
stay
> >there forever. Many of them will bust loose and become independent
> >homeschoolers.
>
> Some will, but from what anecdotal evidence we've been able to find most
won't.
>
> >Am I wrong? Are local homeschooling groups seeing shrinkage? I have
heard,
> >from friends in Washington, that the programs offered are pretty
appealing.
> >(Much better than some places that offer only "school in a can".)
>
> Some homeschooling groups in this state (WA) have seen shrinkage to
> almost nothing. Homeschooling groups in my home state (Alaska) are
> almost non-existent due to a particularly aggressive and effective
> program of co-opting homeschool families back into the school system.
>
> >I know money is a lure keeping them "in", but lack of information also
keeps
> >some of them there.
> >
> >If it was feasible to donate one old copy of HEM to every public school
> >"outreach" program, maybe a few more people would jump the fence and bolt
to
> >freedom.
>
> We have the copies, and we're willing to make the donations. What we
> don't have is enough staff or help to get them into the hands of
> people who need them. Think small, struggling, just keeping our heads
> above water publication... a big glossy well-financed operation we're
> not.
>
> >(Of course, I'd like to see it in dentist's waiting rooms around the
country,
> >too.)
>
> Indeed! Wouldn't that be nice? <G>
>
> Helen
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
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>
>
Helen Hegener
At 11:51 AM -0800 10/31/01, Lynda wrote:
Mark says it's the same dynamic that made homebirthing a thing of the
past. Yeah, some hearty souls still do it, but neither of my
daughters-in-law did, even though both my sons argued for it, having
witnessed the easy home births of their siblings. Nurse-midwives were
the preferred route for both wives, and while both girls entertained
the idea of doing something at home - though still with professional
assistance - both ended up at hospitals when - pardon the bad pun -
push came to shove.
The whole idea of homebirthing was co-opted by the professionals and
institutions, and we're seeing the same thing happen with
homeschooling.
Anyone getting scared yet?
Helen
>It is here in CA also. The charter schools are gobbling up homeschoolers atGobbling up homeschoolers... Great Halloween image there, Lynda. <g>
>a tremendous rate. Also, some of the charter schools are now doing drop in
>satellite schools and I've seen about 5 families leave for that this year up
>here in the boonies.
Mark says it's the same dynamic that made homebirthing a thing of the
past. Yeah, some hearty souls still do it, but neither of my
daughters-in-law did, even though both my sons argued for it, having
witnessed the easy home births of their siblings. Nurse-midwives were
the preferred route for both wives, and while both girls entertained
the idea of doing something at home - though still with professional
assistance - both ended up at hospitals when - pardon the bad pun -
push came to shove.
The whole idea of homebirthing was co-opted by the professionals and
institutions, and we're seeing the same thing happen with
homeschooling.
Anyone getting scared yet?
Helen
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/31/01 1:41:09 PM, HEM-Editor@...
writes:
<< The whole idea of homebirthing was co-opted by the professionals and
institutions, and we're seeing the same thing happen with
homeschooling.
institutions, and homescooling will do that too.
It's more than many would have hoped of homeschooling, that it could change
the face (or the edges) of "real school."
Sandra
writes:
<< The whole idea of homebirthing was co-opted by the professionals and
institutions, and we're seeing the same thing happen with
homeschooling.
>>But home births changed the beliefs and practices of professionals and
institutions, and homescooling will do that too.
It's more than many would have hoped of homeschooling, that it could change
the face (or the edges) of "real school."
Sandra
Lynda
Yes, because the rules are changing and the numbers are being used to divide
and conquer, so to speak. All of those using the various ps options are
counted as ps students. It doesn't make any difference if the only thing
they do is take the $$, they get counted as ps students.
I am on the board for the local Title IX/JOM advisory committee and the
tracking also uses those figures when they get to college.
they are now tracking the kids that are, at least in their parents minds,
homeschoolers and, guess who is doing better in college AND who are bringing
the numbers up for ps.
so the ps system is happy--they get the $$ AND they get better stats at the
college level.
Lynda
and conquer, so to speak. All of those using the various ps options are
counted as ps students. It doesn't make any difference if the only thing
they do is take the $$, they get counted as ps students.
I am on the board for the local Title IX/JOM advisory committee and the
tracking also uses those figures when they get to college.
they are now tracking the kids that are, at least in their parents minds,
homeschoolers and, guess who is doing better in college AND who are bringing
the numbers up for ps.
so the ps system is happy--they get the $$ AND they get better stats at the
college level.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 12:37 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Gobbling Up Homeschoolers
> At 11:51 AM -0800 10/31/01, Lynda wrote:
> >It is here in CA also. The charter schools are gobbling up homeschoolers
at
> >a tremendous rate. Also, some of the charter schools are now doing drop
in
> >satellite schools and I've seen about 5 families leave for that this year
up
> >here in the boonies.
>
> Gobbling up homeschoolers... Great Halloween image there, Lynda. <g>
>
> Mark says it's the same dynamic that made homebirthing a thing of the
> past. Yeah, some hearty souls still do it, but neither of my
> daughters-in-law did, even though both my sons argued for it, having
> witnessed the easy home births of their siblings. Nurse-midwives were
> the preferred route for both wives, and while both girls entertained
> the idea of doing something at home - though still with professional
> assistance - both ended up at hospitals when - pardon the bad pun -
> push came to shove.
>
> The whole idea of homebirthing was co-opted by the professionals and
> institutions, and we're seeing the same thing happen with
> homeschooling.
>
> Anyone getting scared yet?
>
> Helen
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Helen Hegener
At 2:28 PM -0800 10/31/01, Cindy wrote:
co-opting, is it? The question becomes how the community perceives
its own needs, which is based on the information they're given to
work with, which is sometimes misleading. If these programs remained
what they claim to be it would be one thing, but they're notorious
for changing the rules once enough people have been sucked through
the door...
Helen
>At what point does it become co-opting and not serving the needs ofIf the community perceives it as a need then it's no longer
>the community? I can see that it is happening but I'm not sure
>where the line is...
co-opting, is it? The question becomes how the community perceives
its own needs, which is based on the information they're given to
work with, which is sometimes misleading. If these programs remained
what they claim to be it would be one thing, but they're notorious
for changing the rules once enough people have been sucked through
the door...
Helen
Lynda
A lot of it starts with all the ideals being incorporated to make the
recipients happy. Slowly, which the folks using the system don't notice,
they start turning the system back to where it was.
Let's take homebirthing. They squaked and squaked about midwives and
homebirths. So them they passed laws (spell that money and control) saying
how a midwife could be "legal." This usually means that the midwife has to
contract with and be supervised by an MD. Then hospitals started building
midwife facilities. Then they built birthingroom at hospitals. Then the
hospitals decided that for "safety" and "insurance" reasons an MD would have
to supervise. Now they are saying that only doctors can do the deliveries.
Soooo, we are right back at square one which is an MD in charge in a
hospital.
The same is happening with CA's charter laws. Many years ago when places
such as Bennett Valley were just about the lonesome cowboys of charters out
there, they gave each family a certain dollar amount to spend as they
pleased. The families had full use of all school facilities and supplies.
If they wanted to use the school bus for field trips they could do that. No
strings, no reporting, no requirements.
The current round of legislation wants to mandate that only a ps can have a
charter. They also are working to require that charters comply with ALL the
same rules and paperwork requirements as "traditional" public schools. That
means testing and it means that the ps that is the "owner" of the charter
will dictate curriculum and what text is used. They are also working to
remove the charters from certain organizations because of the fraud that is
rampant in the outfits that have sprung up to "manage" charters.
Slowly but surely the charters are becoming rigid and structured.
Lynda
recipients happy. Slowly, which the folks using the system don't notice,
they start turning the system back to where it was.
Let's take homebirthing. They squaked and squaked about midwives and
homebirths. So them they passed laws (spell that money and control) saying
how a midwife could be "legal." This usually means that the midwife has to
contract with and be supervised by an MD. Then hospitals started building
midwife facilities. Then they built birthingroom at hospitals. Then the
hospitals decided that for "safety" and "insurance" reasons an MD would have
to supervise. Now they are saying that only doctors can do the deliveries.
Soooo, we are right back at square one which is an MD in charge in a
hospital.
The same is happening with CA's charter laws. Many years ago when places
such as Bennett Valley were just about the lonesome cowboys of charters out
there, they gave each family a certain dollar amount to spend as they
pleased. The families had full use of all school facilities and supplies.
If they wanted to use the school bus for field trips they could do that. No
strings, no reporting, no requirements.
The current round of legislation wants to mandate that only a ps can have a
charter. They also are working to require that charters comply with ALL the
same rules and paperwork requirements as "traditional" public schools. That
means testing and it means that the ps that is the "owner" of the charter
will dictate curriculum and what text is used. They are also working to
remove the charters from certain organizations because of the fraud that is
rampant in the outfits that have sprung up to "manage" charters.
Slowly but surely the charters are becoming rigid and structured.
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Cindy <crma@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Gobbling Up Homeschoolers
>
>
> Helen Hegener wrote:
> >
> > The whole idea of homebirthing was co-opted by the professionals and
> > institutions, and we're seeing the same thing happen with
> > homeschooling.
> >
>
> At what point does it become co-opting and not serving the needs of
> the community? I can see that it is happening but I'm not sure
> where the line is...
>
> --
>
> Cindy Ferguson
> crma@...
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
I see the gobbling up of homeschoolers too. I think at least part of it
is that homeschoolers get so tired of being odd. I hear that
homeschooling is more accepted these days but I personally haven't seen
it. There are constant questions about socialization, qualifications,
curriculum. Most of these questions asked because people don't know what
else to say, I suppose. The quizzing of the kids, "what's bigger, a
quarter square mile, or a quarter mile square?" The pressure from
family and friends.
If you're not really a person who enjoys life outside the mainstream, I
think it can just get tiring. School programs take the heat off. I've
seen it happen around here. The gobbling has begun.
And about hospitals offering birthing choices now; it's NOT the same as
home birth.
Hospitals do their very best to scare women into believing that
childbirth is an illness that needs special medical treatment. They
offer these programs because they were afraid of loosing money, not
because of any great desire to serve the community, just like the
schools. Women aren't respected, they told they can't possibly do it
alone. I realize there are some pregnancies that do require medical
attention, but the real deal is a woman has to do the hard part all by
herself.
My son was born at home in a cabin with no plumbing and no electricity in
Knik, Alaska. It just made no sense to load up and drive all the way to
the hospital at Palmer, do all that work myself anyway, pay a huge bill
and come back home.
It was so much simpler, and more comforting to just stay home.
We have made other choices that differ from the mainstream, and we're
comfortable with them and answering questions. ( Who ever said there is
no such thing as a stupid question, never met some of these folks around
here ) But I can really understand how and why some families find an
easier way. I don't like it, it does scare me, but I can see how it
happens.
Deb L, who is against gobbling, and flag waving, and George Bush, and
Dang if I didn't miss that whole great discussion on Middle East
politics! Oy.
is that homeschoolers get so tired of being odd. I hear that
homeschooling is more accepted these days but I personally haven't seen
it. There are constant questions about socialization, qualifications,
curriculum. Most of these questions asked because people don't know what
else to say, I suppose. The quizzing of the kids, "what's bigger, a
quarter square mile, or a quarter mile square?" The pressure from
family and friends.
If you're not really a person who enjoys life outside the mainstream, I
think it can just get tiring. School programs take the heat off. I've
seen it happen around here. The gobbling has begun.
And about hospitals offering birthing choices now; it's NOT the same as
home birth.
Hospitals do their very best to scare women into believing that
childbirth is an illness that needs special medical treatment. They
offer these programs because they were afraid of loosing money, not
because of any great desire to serve the community, just like the
schools. Women aren't respected, they told they can't possibly do it
alone. I realize there are some pregnancies that do require medical
attention, but the real deal is a woman has to do the hard part all by
herself.
My son was born at home in a cabin with no plumbing and no electricity in
Knik, Alaska. It just made no sense to load up and drive all the way to
the hospital at Palmer, do all that work myself anyway, pay a huge bill
and come back home.
It was so much simpler, and more comforting to just stay home.
We have made other choices that differ from the mainstream, and we're
comfortable with them and answering questions. ( Who ever said there is
no such thing as a stupid question, never met some of these folks around
here ) But I can really understand how and why some families find an
easier way. I don't like it, it does scare me, but I can see how it
happens.
Deb L, who is against gobbling, and flag waving, and George Bush, and
Dang if I didn't miss that whole great discussion on Middle East
politics! Oy.
Helen Hegener
At 5:30 PM -0700 10/31/01, ddzimlew@... wrote:
small cabin her father and I built about a mile off Knik Road, on
Vine, back when it was still a dead end road... Small world. <g>
Helen
>My son was born at home in a cabin with no plumbing and no electricity inNo kidding? Our only daughter was born one cold windy morning in a
>Knik, Alaska. It just made no sense to load up and drive all the way to
>the hospital at Palmer, do all that work myself anyway, pay a huge bill
>and come back home.
>It was so much simpler, and more comforting to just stay home.
small cabin her father and I built about a mile off Knik Road, on
Vine, back when it was still a dead end road... Small world. <g>
Helen
[email protected]
LOL -- nope, not yet.
What I am doing is admiring your daughters-in-law.
I betcha their husbands are as strong-willed as you are and yet, these
informed, intelligent, liberated women evaluated all their options and made a
choice!
Good for them.
Good for all of us.
Even if it's not what their MIL would have chosen. :)
Nance
In a message dated 10/31/2001 8:41:15 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
HEM-Editor@... writes:
What I am doing is admiring your daughters-in-law.
I betcha their husbands are as strong-willed as you are and yet, these
informed, intelligent, liberated women evaluated all their options and made a
choice!
Good for them.
Good for all of us.
Even if it's not what their MIL would have chosen. :)
Nance
In a message dated 10/31/2001 8:41:15 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
HEM-Editor@... writes:
> The whole idea of homebirthing was co-opted by the professionals and[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> institutions, and we're seeing the same thing happen with
> homeschooling.
>
> Anyone getting scared yet?
>
> Helen
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/31/2001 11:16:58 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
HEM-Editor@... writes:
thing about it. Hmmm . . .
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
HEM-Editor@... writes:
> If these programs remainedAnd we, being the shy, retiring, delicate flowers that we are, couldn't do a
> what they claim to be it would be one thing, but they're notorious
> for changing the rules once enough people have been sucked through
> the door...
>
> Helen
>
>
thing about it. Hmmm . . .
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/31/2001 11:59:09 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
lurine@... writes:
expecting tremendous insight or flexibility. Just an option for parents. An
option that needs to be explained more clearly by hsers to hsers and
potential hsers looking to use these programs.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
lurine@... writes:
> The same is happening with CA's charter laws. Many years ago when placesWell, they are ps charters, aren't they? They are public schools. I wasn't
> such as Bennett Valley were just about the lonesome cowboys of charters out
> there, they gave each family a certain dollar amount to spend as they
> pleased. The families had full use of all school facilities and supplies.
> If they wanted to use the school bus for field trips they could do that. No
> strings, no reporting, no requirements.
>
> The current round of legislation wants to mandate that only a ps can have a
> charter. They also are working to require that charters comply with ALL the
> same rules and paperwork requirements as "traditional" public schools. That
> means testing and it means that the ps that is the "owner" of the charter
> will dictate curriculum and what text is used. They are also working to
> remove the charters from certain organizations because of the fraud that is
> rampant in the outfits that have sprung up to "manage" charters.
>
> Slowly but surely the charters are becoming rigid and structured.
>
> Lynda
>
expecting tremendous insight or flexibility. Just an option for parents. An
option that needs to be explained more clearly by hsers to hsers and
potential hsers looking to use these programs.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/31/01 5:40:39 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< And about hospitals offering birthing choices now; it's NOT the same as
home birth. >>
It's not the same as a home birth, but it's WAY less controlled and invasive
than births 20 years ago, and it was homebirth advocates (and just plain
healthy homebirths) and VBAC advocates who shook the hospitals loose from
some of their "truths" about what wasn't safe and what couldn't possibly be
done without the mom dying in a puddle of blood.
Same with unschooling and the dire predictions of "if they don't read by 8"
and "they'll never learn times tables." Those kinds of arguments will go the
way of "you have to have an epidural" and "labor can't last more than 24
hours."
Alternative schools are NOT homeschooling, but they're also not the
you-have-no-choice traditional classroom routine.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< And about hospitals offering birthing choices now; it's NOT the same as
home birth. >>
It's not the same as a home birth, but it's WAY less controlled and invasive
than births 20 years ago, and it was homebirth advocates (and just plain
healthy homebirths) and VBAC advocates who shook the hospitals loose from
some of their "truths" about what wasn't safe and what couldn't possibly be
done without the mom dying in a puddle of blood.
Same with unschooling and the dire predictions of "if they don't read by 8"
and "they'll never learn times tables." Those kinds of arguments will go the
way of "you have to have an epidural" and "labor can't last more than 24
hours."
Alternative schools are NOT homeschooling, but they're also not the
you-have-no-choice traditional classroom routine.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Carol & Mac
Helen,
I discovered GWS shortly after starting homeschooling 15 years ago, and
it was a real lifeline at a time when there were very few homeschoolers
in the *whole* of New Zealand, let alone in my area. Many years later I
discovered HEM, and as time went by I found that I prefered your
magazine more and more, and found myself growing less happy with GWS.
After reading your post I thought a lot about it and wanted to share
with you.
John Holt was a great and inspiring man but that's all he was. I
realised last night why I prefer HEM. GWS places its focus on the words
of people who don't homeschool their own children, or who didn't when
they started. The feature articles and interviews (apart from the focus)
are non homeschoolers. The 'guru' of GWS, John Holt, had no working
knowledge of living and loving and despairing and ailing and washing and
cleaning and cooking and staying up all night with children of his own,
24/7. I have learnt so very much from John Holt and other observers,
but I love HEM and the way it recognises and values the *real* experts
in the homeschooling field - the parents themselves. GWS relegates
parents, I feel, to a secondary staus. Your magazine celebrates their
status as the more important. Last year, finances meant I had to chose
between HEM and GWS (the exchange rate makes the magazines terribly
expensive here) - and I chose HEM. Please keep it up.
I do appreciate your fears about homeschooling, and see signs of similar
paths opening up here in New Zealand. It is scary that so few people
seem to suspect or even care that these paths might just (IMO 'will')
lead everyone back onto the main highway. I guess it's the price we pay
for homeschooling becoming so successful! It's a bit depressing to think
that after years of battling to get homeschooling / unschooling
accepted, we may find ourselves in the position of having to start to
battle all over. But it is worth it - we just have to look at our
children and grandchildren and we know that, tiring though it may be at
times, it *is* worth putting in the energy. (Not that I can actually
look at my grandchild yet, as s/he won't be born until February!)
Take heart, Helen, we've done it once, we can do it again.
((((hugs))))
Carol Brown
New Zealand
I discovered GWS shortly after starting homeschooling 15 years ago, and
it was a real lifeline at a time when there were very few homeschoolers
in the *whole* of New Zealand, let alone in my area. Many years later I
discovered HEM, and as time went by I found that I prefered your
magazine more and more, and found myself growing less happy with GWS.
After reading your post I thought a lot about it and wanted to share
with you.
> If they, with theirIt means you should keep going - please don't pull in the life line.
> incredible legacy from John himself, couldn't make it, what's going
> to keep HEM afloat?
>
> GWS had much more going for it than our little publication has. Not
> just the long history and the still-tremendous name recognition of
> John Holt, but GWS has been reviewed and praised by some of the top
> mainstream media over the years. Pat Farenga, who took over when John
> passed away in 1985, is a very popular conference speaker and a savvy
> businessman. If he thinks it's time to quit fighting the good fight
> what does that mean we should do?
John Holt was a great and inspiring man but that's all he was. I
realised last night why I prefer HEM. GWS places its focus on the words
of people who don't homeschool their own children, or who didn't when
they started. The feature articles and interviews (apart from the focus)
are non homeschoolers. The 'guru' of GWS, John Holt, had no working
knowledge of living and loving and despairing and ailing and washing and
cleaning and cooking and staying up all night with children of his own,
24/7. I have learnt so very much from John Holt and other observers,
but I love HEM and the way it recognises and values the *real* experts
in the homeschooling field - the parents themselves. GWS relegates
parents, I feel, to a secondary staus. Your magazine celebrates their
status as the more important. Last year, finances meant I had to chose
between HEM and GWS (the exchange rate makes the magazines terribly
expensive here) - and I chose HEM. Please keep it up.
I do appreciate your fears about homeschooling, and see signs of similar
paths opening up here in New Zealand. It is scary that so few people
seem to suspect or even care that these paths might just (IMO 'will')
lead everyone back onto the main highway. I guess it's the price we pay
for homeschooling becoming so successful! It's a bit depressing to think
that after years of battling to get homeschooling / unschooling
accepted, we may find ourselves in the position of having to start to
battle all over. But it is worth it - we just have to look at our
children and grandchildren and we know that, tiring though it may be at
times, it *is* worth putting in the energy. (Not that I can actually
look at my grandchild yet, as s/he won't be born until February!)
Take heart, Helen, we've done it once, we can do it again.
((((hugs))))
Carol Brown
New Zealand
[email protected]
On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:30:07 -0700 ddzimlew@... writes:
Nothing changed for us, except that we got stuff and did more
documenting. We went to the same groups and activities, did the same
stuff, felt the same way. I don't feel odd, Cacie says she's weird but
considers that a good thing... if people asked us about homeschooling,
we'd be pretty far into the conversation before the charter school thing
even came up. It just wasn't that important. The charter was fine when it
met our needs, and when it didn't, we left.
I do think, though, that we need to have a whole range of educational
options, not just traditional school in one corner and independent
homeschooling off in another. I think there's room for charters, for
partial day programs, for 2 day a week programs, for drop-in programs...
a continuum, to serve every family. If all of the options are out there,
then people can chose freely.
to get the system to provide them, and in many cases they succeed. When
my grandma gave birth to my dad, she was unconscious, flat on her back,
on a hospital. If women had insisted that homebirth with a midwife was
the only way to do things, than the thousands of women who may have
wanted something less drastic than what my grandma got but weren't
comfortable birthing outside of a hospital would have been out of luck.
Now we have a continuum of servies - while in the hospital you can have a
variety of medications, or no medications. You can go to a freestanding
birthing center and have a CNM attending - and have your insurance pay
for it. No we haven't gone all the way yet, but it's a lot better than it
was 60 years ago. There are options, and people are becoming informed.
Insurance (often the gov't) now pays, in some cases, for a variety of
medical treatments that were once considered too unconventional. No one
ois forced to have thr traditional treatments or the non-traditional
ones, but poeple have options. Isn't having them pay for resources that
our children need to learn and grow a logical next step?
Daron, really tired and perhaps a bit unclear...
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
> I see the gobbling up of homeschoolers too. I think at least part ofit
> is that homeschoolers get so tired of being odd.I dunno. We've been with a charter, we've been not with a charter.
Nothing changed for us, except that we got stuff and did more
documenting. We went to the same groups and activities, did the same
stuff, felt the same way. I don't feel odd, Cacie says she's weird but
considers that a good thing... if people asked us about homeschooling,
we'd be pretty far into the conversation before the charter school thing
even came up. It just wasn't that important. The charter was fine when it
met our needs, and when it didn't, we left.
I do think, though, that we need to have a whole range of educational
options, not just traditional school in one corner and independent
homeschooling off in another. I think there's room for charters, for
partial day programs, for 2 day a week programs, for drop-in programs...
a continuum, to serve every family. If all of the options are out there,
then people can chose freely.
> And about hospitals offering birthing choices now; it's NOT the sameBut there has been change, because people chose alternatives and than try
> as home birth.
> Hospitals do their very best to scare women into believing that
> childbirth is an illness that needs special medical treatment. They
> offer these programs because they were afraid of loosing money, not
> because of any great desire to serve the community, just like the
> schools.
to get the system to provide them, and in many cases they succeed. When
my grandma gave birth to my dad, she was unconscious, flat on her back,
on a hospital. If women had insisted that homebirth with a midwife was
the only way to do things, than the thousands of women who may have
wanted something less drastic than what my grandma got but weren't
comfortable birthing outside of a hospital would have been out of luck.
Now we have a continuum of servies - while in the hospital you can have a
variety of medications, or no medications. You can go to a freestanding
birthing center and have a CNM attending - and have your insurance pay
for it. No we haven't gone all the way yet, but it's a lot better than it
was 60 years ago. There are options, and people are becoming informed.
Insurance (often the gov't) now pays, in some cases, for a variety of
medical treatments that were once considered too unconventional. No one
ois forced to have thr traditional treatments or the non-traditional
ones, but poeple have options. Isn't having them pay for resources that
our children need to learn and grow a logical next step?
Daron, really tired and perhaps a bit unclear...
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
[email protected]
> I do think, though, that we need to have a whole range ofA whole range of educational choices sounds great. But the deeper we go
> educational
> options, not just traditional school in one corner and independent
> homeschooling off in another.
into homeschool friendly ps programs the *choice* becomes what the school
deems educational. If this is what a family believes is best for them,
so be it, but I don't see how it helps homeschooling or homeschoolers. I
don't see how in the long run it helps kids, because we are still left
with the notion that education is something someone else can give you,
must give you, for the good of society.
> But there has been change, because people chose alternatives and. If women had insisted that home birth with a midwife
> than try
> to get the system to provide them, ...
> wasMy grandmother was a midwife and everyone of her children was born at
> the only way to do things, than the thousands of women who may have
> wanted something less drastic than what my grandma got but weren't
> comfortable birthing outside of a hospital would have been out of
> luck.
home, the last in 1940. She could have gone to the hospital, if it had
been practical. She could have called the Dr. to her house. Those were
all choices from the time her first child was born in 1917. Birthing
choices vanished when hospitals saw how much money they could make if
they could convince (scare) women they needed all the bells and whistles.
When my mother's children were born, the first in ' 47, the last in ' 63
the hospital experience was less than desirable, it's true. Hospitals
may have been forced to change because people demanded it but I'm not
convinced it's because they had any revelation about respecting peoples
choices, it was about money, again. The different birthing choices now
are about money, and the more comfortable we get with them, the easier it
will be for them to convince us we need more and more of what they alone,
can provide.
.> Isn't having them pay for resources
> thatIt would seem a logical next step as an educated population only benefits
> our children need to learn and grow a logical next step?
society.
The problem comes from the government deciding what resources are
educational, and who is meeting the criteria. How much money is required
to meet the educational needs of a child? Is it the same everywhere, for
every child? When should the child start learning and when should they
be finished? Are these questions best answered by our government? I
don't personally think so.
And if we get comfortable letting them make a few of these choices now,
it only gives them the compliance they need to make more, require more.
It used to be ok for kids to stay home, ( Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln )
then it was decided parents couldn't provide real education for their
kids. Homeschoolers have made a lot of progress again since the ' 60's,
but charters, and ps programs seem to be saying, once again, that someone
else can do it better than parents can. Call it choice if you want to, I
see it as insidious. ( conspiracy! conspiracy!)
I am all for choice, if it truly is our choice, if there are real
choices. If I say to my child, you have two choices, you can go to
public school or you can sit down here and do this curriculum, is that
real choice? If we get lulled into believing we have real choices now,
in governmental programs, I'm afraid for the future of homeschooling.
Deb L, also tired and probably more than a bit unclear.(as usual)
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/01/2001 12:26:35 PM !!!First Boot!!!, ddzimlew@...
writes:
don't know a good conspiracy when we see one.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> . Homeschoolers have made a lot of progress again since the ' 60's,Well, not all of us were manning the barricades of the '60's so perhaps we
> but charters, and ps programs seem to be saying, once again, that someone
> else can do it better than parents can. Call it choice if you want to, I
> see it as insidious. ( conspiracy! conspiracy!)
>
don't know a good conspiracy when we see one.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/1/01 5:26:36 AM, ddzimlew@... writes:
<< But the deeper we go
into homeschool friendly ps programs the *choice* becomes what the school
deems educational. >>
That's supposed to be what ALL homeschoolers are doing anyway. The way state
laws are phrased, we're supposed to be teaching the (vague, but still)
equivalent of what the schools teach. Even in Texas. The kids are supposed
to be being educated, and the assumption is it will include all that
traditionally educational stuff.
<<I
don't see how in the long run it helps kids, because we are still left
with the notion that education is something someone else can give you,
must give you, for the good of society.>>
In the long run that assumption is so pervasive in our culture that
unschooled kids will spend their lifetimes looking into the cocked heads and
dazed eyes of people who ask them "You didn't go to school and you didn't use
a curriculum?"
We (culturally) will be left with that notion for another hundred years (more
if we're not lucky).
<<I am all for choice, if it truly is our choice, if there are real
choices. If I say to my child, you have two choices, you can go to
public school or you can sit down here and do this curriculum, is that
real choice? >>
Well it's a huge choice for families who couldn't fathom, 20 years ago, that
school was in ANY way an option.
It's not a big educational difference, but it is for some kids still
lifesaving because school itself was killing them.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< But the deeper we go
into homeschool friendly ps programs the *choice* becomes what the school
deems educational. >>
That's supposed to be what ALL homeschoolers are doing anyway. The way state
laws are phrased, we're supposed to be teaching the (vague, but still)
equivalent of what the schools teach. Even in Texas. The kids are supposed
to be being educated, and the assumption is it will include all that
traditionally educational stuff.
<<I
don't see how in the long run it helps kids, because we are still left
with the notion that education is something someone else can give you,
must give you, for the good of society.>>
In the long run that assumption is so pervasive in our culture that
unschooled kids will spend their lifetimes looking into the cocked heads and
dazed eyes of people who ask them "You didn't go to school and you didn't use
a curriculum?"
We (culturally) will be left with that notion for another hundred years (more
if we're not lucky).
<<I am all for choice, if it truly is our choice, if there are real
choices. If I say to my child, you have two choices, you can go to
public school or you can sit down here and do this curriculum, is that
real choice? >>
Well it's a huge choice for families who couldn't fathom, 20 years ago, that
school was in ANY way an option.
It's not a big educational difference, but it is for some kids still
lifesaving because school itself was killing them.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Lynda
Wellll, I understood it and the bottomline is the bottomline--MONEY!
Hospitals didn't put in birthing rooms for mommies to be, they put in
birthing rooms to make money. They didn't sit down and discuss how can we
make this a better experience for women, their families and that new bundle
of joy. They sat down and discussed how to get those $$ back that were
leaving for the comfort of home.
The same is true of the charters and satellite schools and ISPs and all the
other various and sundry names they operate under. Charters have gone down
hill since Bennett Valley closed their's. Each year or two they tighten up
the reins even more.
But one of the things that is happening IMHO (o.k., wise guys, sometimes I
can be humble <g>) is that the definition of "homeschooling" and
"unschooling" is being diluted/changed/taken over by these programs. Look
back at how it has changed. Back in the 60s we knew what it meant. The
government didn't define it except with words like radical, crazy, etc.
Now, this is a disclaimer. PLEASE READ IT CAREFULLY! I am NOT talking
about anyone on this list, I am talking about the uninitiated, the folks
that don't head out on their own and actually experience "real"
un/homeschooling and don't make informed choices.
IMNSHO the problem is those folks that make the decision to homeschool and
walk straight into a ps program because they think that is homeschooling
because it is becoming the accepted definition of homeschooling. Am I clear
as mud on this?
Lynda
Hospitals didn't put in birthing rooms for mommies to be, they put in
birthing rooms to make money. They didn't sit down and discuss how can we
make this a better experience for women, their families and that new bundle
of joy. They sat down and discussed how to get those $$ back that were
leaving for the comfort of home.
The same is true of the charters and satellite schools and ISPs and all the
other various and sundry names they operate under. Charters have gone down
hill since Bennett Valley closed their's. Each year or two they tighten up
the reins even more.
But one of the things that is happening IMHO (o.k., wise guys, sometimes I
can be humble <g>) is that the definition of "homeschooling" and
"unschooling" is being diluted/changed/taken over by these programs. Look
back at how it has changed. Back in the 60s we knew what it meant. The
government didn't define it except with words like radical, crazy, etc.
Now, this is a disclaimer. PLEASE READ IT CAREFULLY! I am NOT talking
about anyone on this list, I am talking about the uninitiated, the folks
that don't head out on their own and actually experience "real"
un/homeschooling and don't make informed choices.
IMNSHO the problem is those folks that make the decision to homeschool and
walk straight into a ps program because they think that is homeschooling
because it is becoming the accepted definition of homeschooling. Am I clear
as mud on this?
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <ddzimlew@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Gobbling Up Homeschoolers
>
> > I do think, though, that we need to have a whole range of
> > educational
> > options, not just traditional school in one corner and independent
> > homeschooling off in another.
>
> A whole range of educational choices sounds great. But the deeper we go
> into homeschool friendly ps programs the *choice* becomes what the school
> deems educational. If this is what a family believes is best for them,
> so be it, but I don't see how it helps homeschooling or homeschoolers. I
> don't see how in the long run it helps kids, because we are still left
> with the notion that education is something someone else can give you,
> must give you, for the good of society.
>
>
> > But there has been change, because people chose alternatives and
> > than try
> > to get the system to provide them, ...
>
> . If women had insisted that home birth with a midwife
> > was
> > the only way to do things, than the thousands of women who may have
> > wanted something less drastic than what my grandma got but weren't
> > comfortable birthing outside of a hospital would have been out of
> > luck.
>
> My grandmother was a midwife and everyone of her children was born at
> home, the last in 1940. She could have gone to the hospital, if it had
> been practical. She could have called the Dr. to her house. Those were
> all choices from the time her first child was born in 1917. Birthing
> choices vanished when hospitals saw how much money they could make if
> they could convince (scare) women they needed all the bells and whistles.
>
> When my mother's children were born, the first in ' 47, the last in ' 63
> the hospital experience was less than desirable, it's true. Hospitals
> may have been forced to change because people demanded it but I'm not
> convinced it's because they had any revelation about respecting peoples
> choices, it was about money, again. The different birthing choices now
> are about money, and the more comfortable we get with them, the easier it
> will be for them to convince us we need more and more of what they alone,
> can provide.
>
> .> Isn't having them pay for resources
> > that
> > our children need to learn and grow a logical next step?
>
> It would seem a logical next step as an educated population only benefits
> society.
> The problem comes from the government deciding what resources are
> educational, and who is meeting the criteria. How much money is required
> to meet the educational needs of a child? Is it the same everywhere, for
> every child? When should the child start learning and when should they
> be finished? Are these questions best answered by our government? I
> don't personally think so.
> And if we get comfortable letting them make a few of these choices now,
> it only gives them the compliance they need to make more, require more.
> It used to be ok for kids to stay home, ( Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln )
> then it was decided parents couldn't provide real education for their
> kids. Homeschoolers have made a lot of progress again since the ' 60's,
> but charters, and ps programs seem to be saying, once again, that someone
> else can do it better than parents can. Call it choice if you want to, I
> see it as insidious. ( conspiracy! conspiracy!)
>
> I am all for choice, if it truly is our choice, if there are real
> choices. If I say to my child, you have two choices, you can go to
> public school or you can sit down here and do this curriculum, is that
> real choice? If we get lulled into believing we have real choices now,
> in governmental programs, I'm afraid for the future of homeschooling.
>
> Deb L, also tired and probably more than a bit unclear.(as usual)
>
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On Thu, 1 Nov 2001 05:17:50 -0700 ddzimlew@... writes:
programs are truly unschoolers at heart. I did work for a program that
started out good and went downhill (we had a big thread on this about 6
weeks ago, as I recall) and I spent a lot of time convincing people that
they were doing great stuff already and their kids were learning and they
didn't need to stress out about it and throw workbooks at them. We would
chat for a while, and people would talk about everything they had been
doing naturally, and I would point out how much the kids were learning
through all of this, and many people would be surprised and feel much
more confident. With the more experienced hsers it wasn't so much an
issue, but a lot of the newer people seemed to need to hear this so that
they could relax. Obviously the charter wasn't the only way it could have
happened - I've had similar conversations at park days or on email lists
- but it was a venue.
I also got to wear I could find a California State Standard to apply to
pretty much anything a kid had done, which was always impressive. Not
that I think the standards are worth much, but I think it helped some
people to see that there really wasn't anything magical about the schools
and their curriculums
doesn't take place in a vacuum, you can't just sit in an empty room alone
and learn much. The charters, when they were at their best, provided
resources specific to what each specific child needed at that moment. The
charter paid for Calvin and Hobbes books, watercolors and watercolor
paper, owl pellets, American Girls paper dolls, tie dye kits, games...
the list was pretty long and varied. I think there's a big difference
between saying, "Here is your edication" and "Here are some things you
were wanting to have so that you can continue your process."
Although technically they already have made these decisions - every state
has laws on the book covering what a child should learn. Your arguments
all rest on the premise that these programs are somehow mandatory, that
people don't just have the freedom to up and walk away. They do. Oak
Meadow is out there, and Laurel Springs, and Clonlara, and many other
options. Why are they not a threat if charter schools are?
now. We have real choice when we look both within and without government
programs. It's like food stamps, or medicaid, or public housing, or
WIC... any of a myraid of public programs. If you decide that you want to
enroll, you can, but no one forces you to do so.
Daron
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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> A whole range of educational choices sounds great. But the deeper wego
> into homeschool friendly ps programs the *choice* becomes what theschool
> deems educational.A lot really depends on the program. Some of the people running these
programs are truly unschoolers at heart. I did work for a program that
started out good and went downhill (we had a big thread on this about 6
weeks ago, as I recall) and I spent a lot of time convincing people that
they were doing great stuff already and their kids were learning and they
didn't need to stress out about it and throw workbooks at them. We would
chat for a while, and people would talk about everything they had been
doing naturally, and I would point out how much the kids were learning
through all of this, and many people would be surprised and feel much
more confident. With the more experienced hsers it wasn't so much an
issue, but a lot of the newer people seemed to need to hear this so that
they could relax. Obviously the charter wasn't the only way it could have
happened - I've had similar conversations at park days or on email lists
- but it was a venue.
I also got to wear I could find a California State Standard to apply to
pretty much anything a kid had done, which was always impressive. Not
that I think the standards are worth much, but I think it helped some
people to see that there really wasn't anything magical about the schools
and their curriculums
>If this is what a family believes is best for them,I
> so be it, but I don't see how it helps homeschooling or homeschoolers.
> don't see how in the long run it helps kids, because we are still leftI don't know anyone who thinks this way. The notion is that learning
> with the notion that education is something someone else can give
> you, must give you, for the good of society.
>
doesn't take place in a vacuum, you can't just sit in an empty room alone
and learn much. The charters, when they were at their best, provided
resources specific to what each specific child needed at that moment. The
charter paid for Calvin and Hobbes books, watercolors and watercolor
paper, owl pellets, American Girls paper dolls, tie dye kits, games...
the list was pretty long and varied. I think there's a big difference
between saying, "Here is your edication" and "Here are some things you
were wanting to have so that you can continue your process."
> The problem comes from the government deciding what resources arerequired
> educational, and who is meeting the criteria. How much money is
> to meet the educational needs of a child? Is it the samewhen should
> everywhere, for every child? When should the child start learning and
> they be finished? Are these questions best answered by our government?But they're not answering these questions, they're offering options.
> I don't personally think so.
Although technically they already have made these decisions - every state
has laws on the book covering what a child should learn. Your arguments
all rest on the premise that these programs are somehow mandatory, that
people don't just have the freedom to up and walk away. They do. Oak
Meadow is out there, and Laurel Springs, and Clonlara, and many other
options. Why are they not a threat if charter schools are?
> I am all for choice, if it truly is our choice, if there are realnow,
> choices. If I say to my child, you have two choices, you can go to
> public school or you can sit down here and do this curriculum, is that
> real choice? If we get lulled into believing we have real choices
> in governmental programs, I'm afraid for the future ofBut that's not a real choice, and that's not what's happening anywhere
> homeschooling.
now. We have real choice when we look both within and without government
programs. It's like food stamps, or medicaid, or public housing, or
WIC... any of a myraid of public programs. If you decide that you want to
enroll, you can, but no one forces you to do so.
Daron
________________________________________________________________
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Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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[email protected]
In a message dated 11/01/2001 5:07:44 PM !!!First Boot!!!, freeform@...
writes:
homeschooling or homeschoolers.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
>One little thing -- it may not be the point that these things are to help
> >If this is what a family believes is best for them,
> > so be it, but I don't see how it helps homeschooling or homeschoolers.
> I
>
homeschooling or homeschoolers.
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>Soon after the Electronic Bus got started in BC, the BC Home Learners
>
>I do think, though, that we need to have a whole range of educational
>options, not just traditional school in one corner and independent
>homeschooling off in another. I think there's room for charters, for
>partial day programs, for 2 day a week programs, for drop-in programs...
>a continuum, to serve every family. If all of the options are out there,
>then people can chose freely.
Association (BCHLA) got their knickers in a knot about how these programs
were going to grab all the homeschoolers in the province and the government
was going to think that we all wanted this kind of "guidance" and make it
mandatory. Or change the laws to require more monitoring, etc. They
started on a bit of a campaign to try to scare hs away from the
programs. They said we weren't really homeschoolers, etc. etc. I think
the net result of that was to turn a lot of hs away from BCHLA, including me.
The leadership has since changed, and the current leaders are a bit more
open-minded about the subject. They still have fears, and they voice them,
but it seems they've learned that the way to go is to get the hs who are
using those programs onside with the provincial group, rather than
alienating them by saying that they aren't "real" homeschoolers. It is
true that we are not considered hs by the province. I don't give a rat's
patooty what the province calls me. I know what I am. Now that BCHLA is
willing to consider that I really am a hs, no matter what the province
calls me, I'm backing BCHLA in their work to keep the hs laws as they
are. You see, I want to be sure there's someplace to stand if I ever
decide to get off the bus. It's still all about choices, and I think there
should be more than 3 (public school, private school, "pure' homeschooling).
> > And about hospitals offering birthing choices now; it's NOT the sameIn BC, the hospitals have changed a lot over the years and do a pretty
> > as home birth.
> > Hospitals do their very best to scare women into believing that
> > childbirth is an illness that needs special medical treatment. They
> > offer these programs because they were afraid of loosing money, not
> > because of any great desire to serve the community, just like the
> > schools.
decent job now of serving the women who choose to use them for birth. (I
had a good experience there with my youngest. Of course we left 2 hours
after he was born.)
We also now have licensed midwives who can attend home *or* hospital
births, and they're paid for by our provincial medical plan, just like
doctors. I tell any pregnant woman who will listen that she can have a
midwife at the hospital and will get far better care that way. Most women
still believe they can only have a midwife at a homebirth.
>Now we have a continuum of servies - while in the hospital you can have aAgain, it's all about choices, the more the merrier, in my opinion.
>variety of medications, or no medications. You can go to a freestanding
>birthing center and have a CNM attending - and have your insurance pay
>for it. No we haven't gone all the way yet, but it's a lot better than it
>was 60 years ago. There are options, and people are becoming informed.
>Insurance (often the gov't) now pays, in some cases, for a variety of
>medical treatments that were once considered too unconventional. No one
>ois forced to have thr traditional treatments or the non-traditional
>ones, but poeple have options. Isn't having them pay for resources that
>our children need to learn and grow a logical next step?
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
[email protected]
In a message dated 11/1/01 10:54:28 AM, lurine@... writes:
<< IMNSHO the problem is those folks that make the decision to homeschool and
walk straight into a ps program because they think that is homeschooling
because it is becoming the accepted definition of homeschooling. Am I clear
as mud on this? >>
But they find out pretty soon, IF the are looking around and listening, that
that's not what homeschooling is.
There's a school program here that originally billed itself as "halftime
homeschool" but it wasn't, and they've shut up about that. It's halftime
REAL school (albeit alternative methods, some of which are very cool), and
halftime homework assigned by the school that parents have to oversee, chart
and report back about PLUS parents have to go to at least one meeting a week
all year, nighttime.
And because they run a morning session and afternoon session with an hour in
the middle of overlap (so the kids can get to know those from the other
session, they say, and there is some truth to it), they can double dip--every
kid earns them full funding.
Tadaa!!!
Is it homeschooling?
No.
Is it hurting homeschooling?
No.
If I were making a commission on every kid who didn't go to school and didn't
use a curriculum, I'd be losing some money! <g> But whether it's hurting the
families or the freedom to homeschool, no. IF they had kept for ten years
calling it homeschooling, yes, it would have been muddying the waters.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< IMNSHO the problem is those folks that make the decision to homeschool and
walk straight into a ps program because they think that is homeschooling
because it is becoming the accepted definition of homeschooling. Am I clear
as mud on this? >>
But they find out pretty soon, IF the are looking around and listening, that
that's not what homeschooling is.
There's a school program here that originally billed itself as "halftime
homeschool" but it wasn't, and they've shut up about that. It's halftime
REAL school (albeit alternative methods, some of which are very cool), and
halftime homework assigned by the school that parents have to oversee, chart
and report back about PLUS parents have to go to at least one meeting a week
all year, nighttime.
And because they run a morning session and afternoon session with an hour in
the middle of overlap (so the kids can get to know those from the other
session, they say, and there is some truth to it), they can double dip--every
kid earns them full funding.
Tadaa!!!
Is it homeschooling?
No.
Is it hurting homeschooling?
No.
If I were making a commission on every kid who didn't go to school and didn't
use a curriculum, I'd be losing some money! <g> But whether it's hurting the
families or the freedom to homeschool, no. IF they had kept for ten years
calling it homeschooling, yes, it would have been muddying the waters.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Tia Leschke
>I wonder if you might be lumping all of these kinds of programs together
>A whole range of educational choices sounds great. But the deeper we go
>into homeschool friendly ps programs the *choice* becomes what the school
>deems educational. If this is what a family believes is best for them,
>so be it, but I don't see how it helps homeschooling or homeschoolers.
and judging them by what you know about one or a few. Or maybe they're
just a lot different in the States, or even your state. I can only talk
about my experience with the programs in BC. The program we use does not
dictate what a child learns, or when they have to learn it. We are
required to send in reports 3 times a year that show what our kids are
learning within the BC curriculum. It doesn't mean they have to learn the
same things at the same time as the ps kids. It just means that we have to
show that they are learning something from somewhere in the
curriculum. It's true that they seem to tighten up the requirements at the
high school level, but even then there are ways around it. My son is 14,
and I'm still sending in anecdotal reports saying that we've read this and
that book together and had these conversations about these subjects,
etc. In other words, my family makes all the choices, not the program. We
only report on the choices we've made.
> IThat's not really an argument against public programs. I know that in BC,
>don't see how in the long run it helps kids, because we are still left
>with the notion that education is something someone else can give you,
>must give you, for the good of society.
we still are required to "provide an educational program" for our kids,
even if we are "real" homeschoolers. I can't imagine ever getting that
changed. At least here, the parents get to decide what constitutes an
educational program.
>When my mother's children were born, the first in ' 47, the last in ' 63I don't think we're ever going to get governments or big businesses to
>the hospital experience was less than desirable, it's true. Hospitals
>may have been forced to change because people demanded it but I'm not
>convinced it's because they had any revelation about respecting peoples
>choices, it was about money, again.
respect people's choices. We've always had to vote with our
pocketbooks. I don't believe it matters that much how we got the
choices. The important thing is to have them.
>The different birthing choices nowThen it all boils down to education, once again. Pregnant women need to be
>are about money, and the more comfortable we get with them, the easier it
>will be for them to convince us we need more and more of what they alone,
>can provide.
educated as to the choices available (and the ones that aren't yet
available, as well) and parents need to be educated about choices in
education.
The main reason most people send their kids to public school is that they
really don't know of any other possibilities, or they're convinced that
those possibilities wouldn't work for them. So if a parent who isn't happy
with the public schools finds out about one of the public school hs
programs and tries it, that's a first step They should somehow be informed
of the organizations that are out there to help them *in addition to* that
public program. The fact that they would then be supporting an
organization that is working to keep their other choices open would be a bonus.
>.> Isn't having them pay for resourcesIn its eighth year now, the program we're on will pay for anything even
> > that
> > our children need to learn and grow a logical next step?
>
>It would seem a logical next step as an educated population only benefits
>society.
>The problem comes from the government deciding what resources are
>educational, and who is meeting the criteria.
remotely educational with our resource allowance. I've had sports and
scouts registration fees and the non-resident library card fee
paid. They've paid for 2 printers, a cd burner, and a scanner. Oh and
they've bought books as well. The only things they won't pay for are
religious materials because they're publicly funded, and the actual
equipment for sports, etc. (They'll pay for skating lessons but not
skates, for instance.)
>How much money is requiredSo as long as you have the option to keep the government from making these
>to meet the educational needs of a child? Is it the same everywhere, for
>every child? When should the child start learning and when should they
>be finished? Are these questions best answered by our government? I
>don't personally think so.
decisions for *your* child, isn't that good enough? Can we not simply work
to keep choices available that will allow the parents who want to make
these decisions to do so?
>And if we get comfortable letting them make a few of these choices now,For at least a hundred years, government has been making these
>it only gives them the compliance they need to make more, require more.
choices. Homeschoolers have gradually insisted on the right to make them
for themselves. This is what we need to focus on. As long as we can keep
on making these decisions ourselves if we choose to, what difference does
it make that some will allow others to make them. Public school parents
have been allowing that for years.
>It used to be ok for kids to stay home, ( Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln )So it's ok for the "real" homeschoolers to be working to limit *my*
>then it was decided parents couldn't provide real education for their
>kids. Homeschoolers have made a lot of progress again since the ' 60's,
>but charters, and ps programs seem to be saying, once again, that someone
>else can do it better than parents can. Call it choice if you want to, I
>see it as insidious. ( conspiracy! conspiracy!)
choices? You're still lumping all public programs together and assuming
that they are making all the choices for the parents involved. While this
may be true in some programs, it isn't for all of them.
>I am all for choice, if it truly is our choice, if there are realSo work to keep the choices open, not shut down the ones you don't believe in.
>choices.
>If I say to my child, you have two choices, you can go toOf course not. You're leaving out quite a few options.
>public school or you can sit down here and do this curriculum, is that
>real choice?
>If we get lulled into believing we have real choices now,Well, homeschoolers of all stripes have real choices in BC. And I'm
>in governmental programs, I'm afraid for the future of homeschooling.
working to keep it that way.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Tia Leschke
>But how do you explain the many people in BC who start out with the
>
>IMNSHO the problem is those folks that make the decision to homeschool and
>walk straight into a ps program because they think that is homeschooling
>because it is becoming the accepted definition of homeschooling. Am I clear
>as mud on this?
government correspondance course and chuck it after a year or two (or even
a couple of months) because they realize they can do it just as well
without them. If they hadn't had the correspondance option to start with,
their kids would likely still be in school. Same thing happens with the
Electronic Bus. Usually people start with it for one of two
reasons. 1. They want the computer and money. 2. They don't believe
that they can do it alone.
Now the Electronic Bus may be unique because they *expect* parents to do it
on their own. The teachers are there to offer assistance when it's wanted,
but the vast majority of them encourage parents to find their own way as
much as possible.
Both families 1 and 2 might leave after a while. Family 1 might leave when
they can get their own computer. Family 2 might leave when they realize
that they *can* do it themselves. Or they might stay, but they're all
still the ones in charge of their homeschooling "program". Maybe there
aren't any similar programs in the States?
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
[email protected]
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@h...> wrote:
communitie and the home ed community are tremendous. As the hospitals
and professionals took on "home-like" settings and twisted ideas into
their own, fewer home birth advocates were willing to "fight the
fight". Its tiring to go against the flow all the time and some folks
are really just looking for when they can go back to an easier way
without having to forego all of their views, thus, homelike hospital
births and government homeschooling programs. Oxymorons to me, but to
others, an answer to walking against the wind.
In some part, I think economics are affecting us, but also, the
downside of a natural inflation/deflation progression. The home ed
community was on a rapid increase through much of the 90's.
It still worries me in some ways. In others, I think we'll just melt
back down to a core group and move forward. Not sure yet.
in peace,
Chris O'Connor
PS I love hearing from you, Helen. Any concrete ways we can help
insure HEM stays around? What could we do to help?
> At 11:51 AM -0800 10/31/01, Lynda wrote:Count me as one, Helen. The parrallels between the home birth
>
> The whole idea of homebirthing was co-opted by the professionals
> and institutions, and we're seeing the same thing happen with
> homeschooling.
>
> Anyone getting scared yet?
communitie and the home ed community are tremendous. As the hospitals
and professionals took on "home-like" settings and twisted ideas into
their own, fewer home birth advocates were willing to "fight the
fight". Its tiring to go against the flow all the time and some folks
are really just looking for when they can go back to an easier way
without having to forego all of their views, thus, homelike hospital
births and government homeschooling programs. Oxymorons to me, but to
others, an answer to walking against the wind.
In some part, I think economics are affecting us, but also, the
downside of a natural inflation/deflation progression. The home ed
community was on a rapid increase through much of the 90's.
It still worries me in some ways. In others, I think we'll just melt
back down to a core group and move forward. Not sure yet.
in peace,
Chris O'Connor
PS I love hearing from you, Helen. Any concrete ways we can help
insure HEM stays around? What could we do to help?
[email protected]
> I wonder if you might be lumping all of these kinds of programsThat's a real possibility, I'm in a bubble here, and I have seen some
> together
> and judging them by what you know about one or a few.
nasty coercion by the ps *homeschool* programs. I concede it may not be
this ugly everywhere. But it's proof it's not exactly nice everywhere,
either.
> In other words, my family makes all the choices, not theIf you're satisfied, then good for you.
> program.
> we still are required to "provide an educational program" for ourYes, the law says we must, but that still doesn't mean it's right.
> kids,
> even if we are "real" homeschoolers.
>parents need to be educated about choices inI agree! I just question whether parents will find education about all
> education.
the other choices at a ps homeschool program. I think they may very well
be told they've been informed though.
> So as long as you have the option to keep the government from makingAs long as I get what I want, to heck with everybody else? How long do I
> these
> decisions for *your* child, isn't that good enough?
get to keep this option if the government decides the example of
homeschoolers participating in programs proves homeschoolers don't mind
*some* oversight -- and then some more?
> So it's ok for the "real" homeschoolers to be working to limit *my*I would NEVER work to limit anyones choices. I don't want mine limited
> choices?
either.
> So work to keep the choices open, not shut down the ones you don'tOk, then.
> believe in.
Here's what concerns me. Some nut decides it's just too terrible that
there is no oversight of "these homeschools". But look here!
Homeschoolers have been happy with charters and ps programs and
alternative schools, no complaints about reporting, or whatever. Let's
just make it a law that kids can't be homeschooled except through one of
these handy little facilities. Down the road a piece we can test all the
kids and see how they're doing and then if it's necessary, we can require
this or that and it's still just like homeschooling except that we know
what's really going on.
Am I paranoid? ( or perceptive? <g> ) Am I an alarmist? ( or Chicken
Little?)
you don't really have to answer.
I think you have every right to make your own choices. I have agonized
over my own, as parents do. You show me your ulcer, I'll show you mine.
<g>
Deb L