Re: What is unschooling?
Jane E.
> From: "D. J. Brewer" <djbrewer@...>I DO NOT like having my style of
> unschooling criticized, nor do I like being accused of things I did NOTI feel a need to respond here, as I am an inveterate meddler. Although I,
> do such as A. change the focus of this list or B. complaining about the
> lists' focus.
>
> I JUST want to visit and share with parents who unschool. It seems like
> neither you nor Linda want me around.
too, found D.J.'s description of "pushing" and "requiring" a little more
schoolish than unschoolish, I don't feel she deserved the reaction that she
received. In fact, haven't many of us been through that phase of feeling
there are things our children "ought" to be doing, and if they aren't doing
it for love, they need to do it for (fill in the blank)____, (self
discipline, practice, progress, keeping up, fulfilling my needs, etc.).
I certainly don't think D.J. was trying to change the tone or focus of the
list. But D.J., I don't think anyone was suggesting that you would be
unwelcome.
>I went back to reread some unschoolingUnschooling spans the spectrum from "just" not using a packaged curriculum
> posts from the links you gave me, and the one I read was, "There are as
> many different ways of defining unschooling as
> there are people doing it. Reading through what various
>
> people have to say about it may help you to a better
> understanding, or at least be interesting and make you
> think!
to uninvolvement in the child's activities. Few of us consider that
unschooling is either of these extremes. What is interesting and exciting
about this list is the different views of what our children need in terms of
learning.
I don't speak for Linda, but I wonder if her comments to you, D.J. might
have been more acceptable if they had been worded more diplomatically. I,
too, thought that her tone was terse, although I would have asked the same
questions about why you feel the need to "push."
Many of us have evolved from school-at-home to unschooling. I cringe when I
remember what I required of my children in my first couple of years
homeschooling. I don't think we should jump all over newbies who tell us
what they are doing and are asking for honest feedback. Let's all try to
keep our tones a little more gentle.
Jane
The Meddler
Brown
D.J. raises some points:
<Perhaps Linda's
reaction was because she thought I was dissing what unschooling is
about. I am NOT.
Unschooling is NOT unguided. It is guidance with the highest awareness
of sensitivity to the
kids. It is allowing kids to learn by living. (It is Yoda style
guidance!) >
And in another:
<The whole issue of "pushing" at our house is a non-issue. There may be
parents who want to nudge their kids some and there may be others who
don't. It is definitely a parental perogative.
Your line of questioning is definitely designed to put one on the
defensive, even as that non-homeschooling mother in the store did to
that woman who homeschooled her children. Let us just say that our
parenting styles probably differ to some degree. Whether or not you
have a problem with what I require or do not require of my children is
really a moot point. I don't have any problem with how you are raising
your kids.
I knew very well that I was introducing ideas that some people would
frown on, but I can't let that stop me from being honest in my post, nor
can I let people's pushing their opinions on me sway me from what I
intend on doing.>
Now, it seems to me, D.J that you didn't like the tone of Linda's
questions, yet they seemed quite reasonable to me in the context of this
list. How we each define unschooling is own own business as is how we
bring up our children. However, this list is, and I quote from the
onelist description:
Description
This is a networking and discussion list for the
Unschooling.com website.
For more information:
http://www.unschooling.com
Now, in terms of the descriptions of unschooling found on the
Unschooling.com website I thought Linda's questions were perfectly
reasonable. This is the 2nd time since this list started not long ago
that this sort of discussion has arisen, and the same thing has happened
on another list I was on. I'm relatively new to internet and lists, so
perhaps those who have been around longer than I could clarify. Is it
usual for a list to start with a particular focus, and then to have
people join and complain about it having that focus?
Carol
> I do not understand what is the big deal about giving our childrenIn another post D.J. says:
> guidance in areas where they need nudging. I am well aware that for
> some people who call themselves "unschoolers," my way of thinking
> might be considered politically incorrect. (BIG WOOOOoooo!)[Image]
>
> So this whole question of how to "unschool" math and writing begs a
> whole other question: what precisely is meant by "unschooling?" To
> me, it means NOT learning the way public schools try to force rigid
> learning upon kids. Unschool = NOT school. And we do NOT school at
> my house. We have fun and learn. That is why I have chosen the term
> Natural Learners to describe what we do. It doesn't smack of the 60s
> (unhip uncool ungroovy unschool). It is a natural term that describes
> a natural process. You don't need to get hung up on positions of
> authority.
> A mom's position can naturally be one of guidance. A kid's position
> can naturally be one of being a kid.
<Perhaps Linda's
reaction was because she thought I was dissing what unschooling is
about. I am NOT.
Unschooling is NOT unguided. It is guidance with the highest awareness
of sensitivity to the
kids. It is allowing kids to learn by living. (It is Yoda style
guidance!) >
And in another:
<The whole issue of "pushing" at our house is a non-issue. There may be
parents who want to nudge their kids some and there may be others who
don't. It is definitely a parental perogative.
Your line of questioning is definitely designed to put one on the
defensive, even as that non-homeschooling mother in the store did to
that woman who homeschooled her children. Let us just say that our
parenting styles probably differ to some degree. Whether or not you
have a problem with what I require or do not require of my children is
really a moot point. I don't have any problem with how you are raising
your kids.
I knew very well that I was introducing ideas that some people would
frown on, but I can't let that stop me from being honest in my post, nor
can I let people's pushing their opinions on me sway me from what I
intend on doing.>
Now, it seems to me, D.J that you didn't like the tone of Linda's
questions, yet they seemed quite reasonable to me in the context of this
list. How we each define unschooling is own own business as is how we
bring up our children. However, this list is, and I quote from the
onelist description:
Description
This is a networking and discussion list for the
Unschooling.com website.
For more information:
http://www.unschooling.com
Now, in terms of the descriptions of unschooling found on the
Unschooling.com website I thought Linda's questions were perfectly
reasonable. This is the 2nd time since this list started not long ago
that this sort of discussion has arisen, and the same thing has happened
on another list I was on. I'm relatively new to internet and lists, so
perhaps those who have been around longer than I could clarify. Is it
usual for a list to start with a particular focus, and then to have
people join and complain about it having that focus?
Carol
D. J. Brewer
In a previous post Carol writes, " Is it usual
for a list to start with a particular focus, and then to have people
join and complain about it having that focus?"
to which I respond, "who is complaining?"
Carol, I am NOT trying to change the focus of this list. I LIKE
unschooling. I like to share ideas. I DO NOT like having my style of
unschooling criticized, nor do I like being accused of things I did NOT
do such as A. change the focus of this list or B. complaining about the
lists' focus.
I JUST want to visit and share with parents who unschool. It seems like
neither you nor Linda want me around. It is tempting to just leave, but
then I might miss out on some good friendships, including ones with you
and Linda. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your comments, but it seems
hard to give them any other spin other than the critizisms they either
imply or directly state. It is also entirely possible that I have
misread your intent and am being overly defensive.
I feel like telling ya'll, "Like, you guys, LIGHTEN UP already. I do
things differently from ya'll. SO? Ya'll are beatin me up, and then
tellin me I'm complainin! Get real!"
If my post initially treaded on your toes, I am truly sorry. I am not
being facetious. I really mean that. When I get in with a group of
unschoolers, I always try to be perfectly clear about how I am applying
that philosophy, since I do have friends whose philosophy and
application differs from mine. I don't want to come across as being
fake or just cowtowing to whatever opinion comes down the pike. I may
agree with it. I may not.
If I overreacted to Linda's comments, I am sorry.
Carol you quoted largely from my letters and then somehow seemed
satisfied that you had proven some point. What was your point? You
said, "Now, in terms of the descriptions of unschooling found on the
Unschooling.com website I thought Linda's questions were perfectly
reasonable." Perhaps they were. I went back to reread some unschooling
posts from the links you gave me, and the one I read was, "There are as
many different ways of defining unschooling as
there are people doing it. Reading through what various
people have to say about it may help you to a better
understanding, or at least be interesting and make you
think!
These are not meant to be complete definitions."
Now, I sure didn't join this list to get into a big hairy argument and
pollute the listwaves with it, but I will respond to publicly made
innuendos. My sincere apologies to all. I will not address these
issues again. Any further differings with how I do things regarding
unschooling I will post with individuals personally, regardless of where
they post their comments. I thank the list participants and moderators
for being so gracious, and again, I apoligize for creating an entry that
made so many waves.
Sincerely and with Love
DJ Brewer
for a list to start with a particular focus, and then to have people
join and complain about it having that focus?"
to which I respond, "who is complaining?"
Carol, I am NOT trying to change the focus of this list. I LIKE
unschooling. I like to share ideas. I DO NOT like having my style of
unschooling criticized, nor do I like being accused of things I did NOT
do such as A. change the focus of this list or B. complaining about the
lists' focus.
I JUST want to visit and share with parents who unschool. It seems like
neither you nor Linda want me around. It is tempting to just leave, but
then I might miss out on some good friendships, including ones with you
and Linda. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your comments, but it seems
hard to give them any other spin other than the critizisms they either
imply or directly state. It is also entirely possible that I have
misread your intent and am being overly defensive.
I feel like telling ya'll, "Like, you guys, LIGHTEN UP already. I do
things differently from ya'll. SO? Ya'll are beatin me up, and then
tellin me I'm complainin! Get real!"
If my post initially treaded on your toes, I am truly sorry. I am not
being facetious. I really mean that. When I get in with a group of
unschoolers, I always try to be perfectly clear about how I am applying
that philosophy, since I do have friends whose philosophy and
application differs from mine. I don't want to come across as being
fake or just cowtowing to whatever opinion comes down the pike. I may
agree with it. I may not.
If I overreacted to Linda's comments, I am sorry.
Carol you quoted largely from my letters and then somehow seemed
satisfied that you had proven some point. What was your point? You
said, "Now, in terms of the descriptions of unschooling found on the
Unschooling.com website I thought Linda's questions were perfectly
reasonable." Perhaps they were. I went back to reread some unschooling
posts from the links you gave me, and the one I read was, "There are as
many different ways of defining unschooling as
there are people doing it. Reading through what various
people have to say about it may help you to a better
understanding, or at least be interesting and make you
think!
These are not meant to be complete definitions."
Now, I sure didn't join this list to get into a big hairy argument and
pollute the listwaves with it, but I will respond to publicly made
innuendos. My sincere apologies to all. I will not address these
issues again. Any further differings with how I do things regarding
unschooling I will post with individuals personally, regardless of where
they post their comments. I thank the list participants and moderators
for being so gracious, and again, I apoligize for creating an entry that
made so many waves.
Sincerely and with Love
DJ Brewer
Linda Wyatt
> From: "D. J. Brewer" <djbrewer@...>Are you new to mailing lists? You seem to be taking things *way* too
> I JUST want to visit and share with parents who unschool. It seems like
> neither you nor Linda want me around.
personally.
Nothing in my post was meant to criticize *you* as a person. I disagree
with *your methods*, and that is what I stated- what and why I disagreed.
Doesn't have *anything* to do with "not wanting you around".
> Perhaps I am misinterpreting your comments,Yes, you appear to be.
> but it seemsAgain- I wasn't criticizing you.
> hard to give them any other spin other than the critizisms they either
> imply or directly state.
I was stating my very strong disagreement with *requiring* anything
academic of children.
You disagree. Not a problem.
> I don't want to come across as beingThen why do you have such a problem with someone else's opinions? That's
> fake or just cowtowing to whatever opinion comes down the pike. I may
> agree with it. I may not.
what I feel is odd- that you want to be able to state your honest opinion,
but if I do so, I'm attacking you or not wanting you around. I'm not doing
either one- I'm simply disagreeing.
Did I, in my post, say anything at all about you changing your opinion?
Did I tell you that you have to do things my way? No, I said I dislike the
way you've chosen. I talked about what I think and what I feel. NOT what
you should do. There's a BIG difference.
> I went back to reread some unschoolingYou probably don't realize it, DJ, but that bit on the website was written
> posts from the links you gave me, and the one I read was, "There are as
> many different ways of defining unschooling as there are people doing it.
> Reading through what various people have to say about it may help you
> to a better understanding, or at least be interesting and make you
> think! These are not meant to be complete definitions."
by me. :-)
> Any further differings with how I do things regardingWhy? Isn't the point here to discuss and learn from each other?
> unschooling I will post with individuals personally, regardless of where
> they post their comments.
>I thank the list participants and moderators for being so gracious,So many waves? Again, I ask if you are new to mailing lists because I
>and again, I apoligize for creating an entry that made so many waves.
don't feel like you created any waves *at all*. A minor blip, maybe.
Linda
--
Linda Wyatt
hilinda@...
http://www.lightlink.com/hilinda
Learning everywhere, all the time.
Algebra before breakfast
"A lie, you see, no matter how often or how vociferously repeated, may be
mistaken for the truth, but it does not become the truth." - Adam Crown
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/7/99 1:00:08 PM, mjcmbrwn@... writes:
<<I'm relatively new to internet and lists, so
perhaps those who have been around longer than I could clarify. Is it
usual for a list to start with a particular focus, and then to have
people join and complain about it having that focus?>>
Well... from what I've seen it's pretty typical for the
unschoolers-with-some-reservations to think that the whole-hog-unschoolers
are picking on them when the latter write about whole-hog unschooling in
response to the posts of the former.
I don't totally grasp why this is, but if we hang on to our inner calm during
the ensuing discussion, we might finally figure it out. ;-)
I think this list is a great place to stay for some challenging discussion.
I'm happy to have all kinds of interesting people here. I hope we can work
this out and keep the list working well.
Peace,
Betsy
<<I'm relatively new to internet and lists, so
perhaps those who have been around longer than I could clarify. Is it
usual for a list to start with a particular focus, and then to have
people join and complain about it having that focus?>>
Well... from what I've seen it's pretty typical for the
unschoolers-with-some-reservations to think that the whole-hog-unschoolers
are picking on them when the latter write about whole-hog unschooling in
response to the posts of the former.
I don't totally grasp why this is, but if we hang on to our inner calm during
the ensuing discussion, we might finally figure it out. ;-)
I think this list is a great place to stay for some challenging discussion.
I'm happy to have all kinds of interesting people here. I hope we can work
this out and keep the list working well.
Peace,
Betsy
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/7/99 1:36:26 PM, djbrewer@... writes:
<<I feel like telling ya'll, "Like, you guys, LIGHTEN UP already. I do
things differently from ya'll. SO? Ya'll are beatin me up, and then
tellin me I'm complainin! Get real!">>
Would you be willing to quote the parts of Linda's post that bothered you the
most. That would probably help see if there is a misunderstanding here.
Betsy
<<I feel like telling ya'll, "Like, you guys, LIGHTEN UP already. I do
things differently from ya'll. SO? Ya'll are beatin me up, and then
tellin me I'm complainin! Get real!">>
Would you be willing to quote the parts of Linda's post that bothered you the
most. That would probably help see if there is a misunderstanding here.
Betsy
Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall
>Would you be willing to quote the parts of Linda's post that bothered youthe
>most. That would probably help see if there is a misunderstanding here.Oh come on! Does it really matter WHAT in particular bothered her? It's
>
>Betsy
obvious to me that there was a misunderstanding....let's move on!
Peace and Blessings to All
Nanci K. in Idaho
Joel Hawthorne
I must have been sleeping when the exchange mentioned below occurred but I
certainly can speak generally to the subject of diplomacy. Yes a gentle tone
accomplishes a great deal.
I myself am guilty of getting just a titch over excited when someone pushes one
of my many buttons and some times am terse, abrupt, short, acrimonious, and
sadly probably have my own brand of officiousness which I absolutely detest in
others. Did I mention overbearing. Forgive me in advance and I would hope
people are thick skinned enough not to judge people on the basis of the
occasional imprudent statement or "between the lines" snottiness. People are
doing the best they can at any given moment and of course we all want to do
better. I vote for gentleness even when receiving not so gentle remarks.
"Jane E." wrote:
best wishes
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org
certainly can speak generally to the subject of diplomacy. Yes a gentle tone
accomplishes a great deal.
I myself am guilty of getting just a titch over excited when someone pushes one
of my many buttons and some times am terse, abrupt, short, acrimonious, and
sadly probably have my own brand of officiousness which I absolutely detest in
others. Did I mention overbearing. Forgive me in advance and I would hope
people are thick skinned enough not to judge people on the basis of the
occasional imprudent statement or "between the lines" snottiness. People are
doing the best they can at any given moment and of course we all want to do
better. I vote for gentleness even when receiving not so gentle remarks.
"Jane E." wrote:
> From: "Jane E." <jaelise@...>--
>
> > From: "D. J. Brewer" <djbrewer@...>
> I DO NOT like having my style of
> > unschooling criticized, nor do I like being accused of things I did NOT
> > do such as A. change the focus of this list or B. complaining about the
> > lists' focus.
> >
> > I JUST want to visit and share with parents who unschool. It seems like
> > neither you nor Linda want me around.
>
> I feel a need to respond here, as I am an inveterate meddler. Although I,
> too, found D.J.'s description of "pushing" and "requiring" a little more
> schoolish than unschoolish, I don't feel she deserved the reaction that she
> received. In fact, haven't many of us been through that phase of feeling
> there are things our children "ought" to be doing, and if they aren't doing
> it for love, they need to do it for (fill in the blank)____, (self
> discipline, practice, progress, keeping up, fulfilling my needs, etc.).
>
> I certainly don't think D.J. was trying to change the tone or focus of the
> list. But D.J., I don't think anyone was suggesting that you would be
> unwelcome.
>
> >I went back to reread some unschooling
> > posts from the links you gave me, and the one I read was, "There are as
> > many different ways of defining unschooling as
> > there are people doing it. Reading through what various
> >
> > people have to say about it may help you to a better
> > understanding, or at least be interesting and make you
> > think!
>
> Unschooling spans the spectrum from "just" not using a packaged curriculum
> to uninvolvement in the child's activities. Few of us consider that
> unschooling is either of these extremes. What is interesting and exciting
> about this list is the different views of what our children need in terms of
> learning.
>
> I don't speak for Linda, but I wonder if her comments to you, D.J. might
> have been more acceptable if they had been worded more diplomatically. I,
> too, thought that her tone was terse, although I would have asked the same
> questions about why you feel the need to "push."
>
> Many of us have evolved from school-at-home to unschooling. I cringe when I
> remember what I required of my children in my first couple of years
> homeschooling. I don't think we should jump all over newbies who tell us
> what they are doing and are asking for honest feedback. Let's all try to
> keep our tones a little more gentle.
>
> Jane
> The Meddler
>
> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------
>
> ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com
best wishes
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which conserve,
restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in society i.e.
restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org
Brown
D.J.
I'm sorry you are taking things so personally. Like Nanci (got the 'i' that
time, Nanci <g>) I enjoyed reading about what you do.
age I am - a teenager in the 60's and all <g> The sort of unschooling
talked about on Unschooling.com is a lot more than just <Unschool+NOT
school>.
I felt Linda was just asking you about aspects of your style of unschooling
that are different from the styles of many other unschoolers, and those
talked about on Unschooling.com..
You also said, in 2 different posts
list is for discussing unschooling. Discussion, I thought, involved a
conversation of some sort, not just a whole lot of people making statements
which are never commented on? I like to read what others do, ask questions,
then decide if I stick to my original view, or change in light of new ideas
and information. And having done that in this case, I have to admit that I
do push my kids sometimes. But what I hoped to find on this list was support
for trying to learn to become a more unschooling homeschooler and that is in
fact what I assumed the purpose of the list was. I cannot for the life of
me see how pushing can be part of unschooling. Perhaps we have a different
definition of pushing? Perhaps to you it means the same as guidance? But I
certainly don't want to ask you to explain how that works for you in a
unschooling context now, because I feel that you would be likely to take it
as criticism.
point of being on a list unless I am interested in listening to others
opinions, with the possibilitity in mind that they *might* sway me because
they *might* have more experience, or knowledge or insight than me.
made statements about what you think unschooling is, but rejected
discussion.
homeschooling and trying to unschool, seeing 'pushing' described as part of
unschooling. Which is why I said <in terms of the descriptions of
unschooling found on the Unschooling.com website I thought Linda's questions
were perfectly reasonable. >
this list, so it's not for me to say. But over the years I have seen many
support groups, and more recently e-mail lists start out with one focus and
then change focus, so that, in the case of the support groups anyway, the
people that wanted the original focus have had to go away and start anew.
homeopathy and natural therapies and homebirth and child-led weaning and we
have just bought some land that we are going to build on and develop along
permaculture lines and ...... but I don't expect to discuss them here. Nor
do I expect to discuss structured curriculum or 'pushing'. Except maybe to
ask help and support when I feel a surge of pushiness descending on me <g> I
don't want or intend to criticise you. Homeschoolers are by nature a strong
minded lot. But if we can't question or discuss statements about the nature
of unschooling, as Linda did, then what's the point of an 'unschooling'
discussion list?
'unschooling'. Many of which find a place in my life, to my regret. But if
you eat meat only once a week, it is still intrinsically incorrect to claim
that that is vegetarian behaviour. The lines are far more blurred with
unschooling but I still believe that blurry though they may be, discussing
the lines is part of what this list is about. Denying discussion about
unschooling *is*, IMO, getting away from the focus of this 'unschooling
networking and discussion' list.
Please, I'm not trying to be horrid to you on a personal level. I have
friends with all sorts of different religions, lifestyles, homeschooling
styles. But I don't like being accused of being intolerant or whatever, for
saying that I want to *discuss* unschooling on an unschooling list.
Carol
I'm sorry you are taking things so personally. Like Nanci (got the 'i' that
time, Nanci <g>) I enjoyed reading about what you do.
> D.J. wrote: Carol, I am NOT trying to change the focus of this list. IYou made quite a few statements about what unschooling is - eg
> LIKE
> unschooling. I like to share ideas. I DO NOT like having my style of
> unschooling criticized, nor do I like being accused of things I did NOT
> do such as A. change the focus of this list or B. complaining about the
> lists' focus.
> So this whole question of how to "unschool" math and writing begs a wholeSome of which I could have chosen to take personal offence to - being the
> other question: what precisely is meant by "unschooling?" To me, it means
> NOT learning the way public
> schools try to force rigid learning upon kids. Unschool = NOT school.
> And we do NOT
> school at my house. We have fun and learn. That is why I have chosen the
> term Natural
> Learners to describe what we do. It doesn't smack of the 60s (unhip
> uncool ungroovy
> unschool). It is a natural term that describes a natural process. You
> don't need to get hung up
> on positions of authority.
age I am - a teenager in the 60's and all <g> The sort of unschooling
talked about on Unschooling.com is a lot more than just <Unschool+NOT
school>.
I felt Linda was just asking you about aspects of your style of unschooling
that are different from the styles of many other unschoolers, and those
talked about on Unschooling.com..
You also said, in 2 different posts
> The whole issue of "pushing" at our house is a non-issue. ThereYes, it is a parental perogative. So is the style of homeschooling. This
> may
> be parents who want to nudge their kids some and there may be others who
> don't. It is definitely a parental perogative.
> Everybody needs a little push now and then.
list is for discussing unschooling. Discussion, I thought, involved a
conversation of some sort, not just a whole lot of people making statements
which are never commented on? I like to read what others do, ask questions,
then decide if I stick to my original view, or change in light of new ideas
and information. And having done that in this case, I have to admit that I
do push my kids sometimes. But what I hoped to find on this list was support
for trying to learn to become a more unschooling homeschooler and that is in
fact what I assumed the purpose of the list was. I cannot for the life of
me see how pushing can be part of unschooling. Perhaps we have a different
definition of pushing? Perhaps to you it means the same as guidance? But I
certainly don't want to ask you to explain how that works for you in a
unschooling context now, because I feel that you would be likely to take it
as criticism.
> I knew very well that I was introducing ideas that some people would frownI don't believe Linda was pushing her opinions on you. And I don't see much
>
> on,
> but I can't let that stop me from being honest in my post, nor can I let
> people's pushing their opinions on me sway me from what I intend on doing.
point of being on a list unless I am interested in listening to others
opinions, with the possibilitity in mind that they *might* sway me because
they *might* have more experience, or knowledge or insight than me.
> Perhaps Linda'sAssuming you mean 'discussing'? That's just it. You're not 'discussing'. You
> reaction was because she thought I was dissing what unschooling is about.
> I am NOT.
> Unschooling is NOT unguided. It is guidance with the highest awareness of
> sensitivity to the
> kids. It is allowing kids to learn by living. (It is Yoda style
> guidance!)
made statements about what you think unschooling is, but rejected
discussion.
> I JUST want to visit and share with parents who unschool.Me too. But I have nowhere, ever, in the 13 and a half years I've been
homeschooling and trying to unschool, seeing 'pushing' described as part of
unschooling. Which is why I said <in terms of the descriptions of
unschooling found on the Unschooling.com website I thought Linda's questions
were perfectly reasonable. >
> It seems likeIt's not a matter of not wanting you personally D.J., around. I don't own
> neither you nor Linda want me around.
this list, so it's not for me to say. But over the years I have seen many
support groups, and more recently e-mail lists start out with one focus and
then change focus, so that, in the case of the support groups anyway, the
people that wanted the original focus have had to go away and start anew.
> It is tempting to just leave, butI am a vegetarian, and I write poetry, and I make hand bound books, I'm into
> then I might miss out on some good friendships, including ones with you
> and Linda. Perhaps I am misinterpreting your comments, but it seems
> hard to give them any other spin other than the critizisms they either
> imply or directly state. It is also entirely possible that I have
> misread your intent and am being overly defensive.
homeopathy and natural therapies and homebirth and child-led weaning and we
have just bought some land that we are going to build on and develop along
permaculture lines and ...... but I don't expect to discuss them here. Nor
do I expect to discuss structured curriculum or 'pushing'. Except maybe to
ask help and support when I feel a surge of pushiness descending on me <g> I
don't want or intend to criticise you. Homeschoolers are by nature a strong
minded lot. But if we can't question or discuss statements about the nature
of unschooling, as Linda did, then what's the point of an 'unschooling'
discussion list?
> "There are asYep. But I still believe there are some things that just aren't
> many different ways of defining unschooling as
> there are people doing it.
'unschooling'. Many of which find a place in my life, to my regret. But if
you eat meat only once a week, it is still intrinsically incorrect to claim
that that is vegetarian behaviour. The lines are far more blurred with
unschooling but I still believe that blurry though they may be, discussing
the lines is part of what this list is about. Denying discussion about
unschooling *is*, IMO, getting away from the focus of this 'unschooling
networking and discussion' list.
Please, I'm not trying to be horrid to you on a personal level. I have
friends with all sorts of different religions, lifestyles, homeschooling
styles. But I don't like being accused of being intolerant or whatever, for
saying that I want to *discuss* unschooling on an unschooling list.
Carol
D. J. Brewer
Dear Linda,
Thank you for your post. I joined this list yesterday or the day
beofre. I am NOT a schoolish person, so it is weird to me to be reacted
to as though I were one. I am comforted to hear that you and Carol were
not just trying to get rid of someone who held a viewpoint different
from your own.
I meant the following post in terms of people taking offense at how I do
things, not in terms of differences in methods.
"Any further differings with how I do things regarding unschooling I
will post with individuals personally, regardless of where they post
their comments."
In your post, you said rather tersely "Then why do you have such a
problem with someone else's opinions?"
I DON'T have a problem with others opinions, I have a problem with
statements that sound more confronting and condescending than oriented
toward discussion. As someone else noted, the comments directed toward
me felt less than courteous.
I will take this discussion group anew and try not to take offense at
your terse manner of writing. After all, we can't hear the tone in one
another's voices, and that goes a long way toward meaning in
conversation.
As I said before, thank you for your post.
DJ Brewer
homeschooling mother of 4
Thank you for your post. I joined this list yesterday or the day
beofre. I am NOT a schoolish person, so it is weird to me to be reacted
to as though I were one. I am comforted to hear that you and Carol were
not just trying to get rid of someone who held a viewpoint different
from your own.
I meant the following post in terms of people taking offense at how I do
things, not in terms of differences in methods.
"Any further differings with how I do things regarding unschooling I
will post with individuals personally, regardless of where they post
their comments."
In your post, you said rather tersely "Then why do you have such a
problem with someone else's opinions?"
I DON'T have a problem with others opinions, I have a problem with
statements that sound more confronting and condescending than oriented
toward discussion. As someone else noted, the comments directed toward
me felt less than courteous.
I will take this discussion group anew and try not to take offense at
your terse manner of writing. After all, we can't hear the tone in one
another's voices, and that goes a long way toward meaning in
conversation.
As I said before, thank you for your post.
DJ Brewer
homeschooling mother of 4
D. J. Brewer
Besty just wrote to DJ
"Would you be willing to quote the parts of Linda's post that bothered
you the most. That would probably help see if there is a
misunderstanding here."
Yes, I would be most happy to, if somebody can e-mail me the letter. I
joined about 11 lists, and I can't find the letter in the millions of
posts that I got.
Thanks
DJ
"Would you be willing to quote the parts of Linda's post that bothered
you the most. That would probably help see if there is a
misunderstanding here."
Yes, I would be most happy to, if somebody can e-mail me the letter. I
joined about 11 lists, and I can't find the letter in the millions of
posts that I got.
Thanks
DJ
D. J. Brewer
But I don't like being accused of being intolerant or whatever, for
saying that I want to *discuss* unschooling on an unschooling list.
Carol
Carol -- NO ONE is accusing you of being intolerant or whatever for
saying that you want to discuss unschooling on an unschooling list. The
very fact that you made such a statement and infered that I, DJ Brewer,
am doing such a thing, is kind of silly.
In your rather inflamatory post you also quipped
"Nor
do I expect to discuss structured curriculum or 'pushing'."
Carol, I do not use structured curriculum and any pushing I do again, I
claim as my own parental perogative, not that I am on some power trip to
push my kids to do or say or be or whatever nefarious ulterior motive
you might imagine a parent might have for giving a kid a little nudge to
do something. You are reacting to some imaginary ME that doesn't
exist. Don't let the word "push" push your buttons. It is just a
word. What you imagine I am doing, I most certainly am not.
I am staying with this list because I like the ideas here, and yes, even
all the people. I may be PMSing out to the max with my reaction to
people's statements, but hey, my period hurts like hell, so sorry.
Don't go thinking I am some sort of structured pushing school at home
mom because that is NOTHING like who I am. Nuff said.
Now, as Nanci said, CAN'T WE ALL JES' GIT ALONG?????
DJ Brewer
homeschooling mother of 4
saying that I want to *discuss* unschooling on an unschooling list.
Carol
Carol -- NO ONE is accusing you of being intolerant or whatever for
saying that you want to discuss unschooling on an unschooling list. The
very fact that you made such a statement and infered that I, DJ Brewer,
am doing such a thing, is kind of silly.
In your rather inflamatory post you also quipped
"Nor
do I expect to discuss structured curriculum or 'pushing'."
Carol, I do not use structured curriculum and any pushing I do again, I
claim as my own parental perogative, not that I am on some power trip to
push my kids to do or say or be or whatever nefarious ulterior motive
you might imagine a parent might have for giving a kid a little nudge to
do something. You are reacting to some imaginary ME that doesn't
exist. Don't let the word "push" push your buttons. It is just a
word. What you imagine I am doing, I most certainly am not.
I am staying with this list because I like the ideas here, and yes, even
all the people. I may be PMSing out to the max with my reaction to
people's statements, but hey, my period hurts like hell, so sorry.
Don't go thinking I am some sort of structured pushing school at home
mom because that is NOTHING like who I am. Nuff said.
Now, as Nanci said, CAN'T WE ALL JES' GIT ALONG?????
DJ Brewer
homeschooling mother of 4
Joel Hawthorne
Hey folks lets carry on with the kiss and make up. Everybody seems to be
having an attack of thin skinnedness. I think this particular horse
may be deceased. Perhaps some more Deep Breathing is called for.
Everybody in ............ now whooooosh let it allllllll ouuuuut!!!!
Muuuuch better Yes?
I have already enjoyed all of the quasi combatants in this semi-quasi
combat regardless of varying hypersensitivities. You all seem like good
folk with varying views. All right everyone open any clenched fist you
might be hiding and let it go. The issues will come round again and
perhaps the next round won't ruffle feathers.
Now my lip is Zipped.
"D. J. Brewer" wrote:
best wishes
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which
conserve, restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in
society i.e. restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org
having an attack of thin skinnedness. I think this particular horse
may be deceased. Perhaps some more Deep Breathing is called for.
Everybody in ............ now whooooosh let it allllllll ouuuuut!!!!
Muuuuch better Yes?
I have already enjoyed all of the quasi combatants in this semi-quasi
combat regardless of varying hypersensitivities. You all seem like good
folk with varying views. All right everyone open any clenched fist you
might be hiding and let it go. The issues will come round again and
perhaps the next round won't ruffle feathers.
Now my lip is Zipped.
"D. J. Brewer" wrote:
> But I don't like being accused of being intolerant or whatever, for--
> saying that I want to *discuss* unschooling on an unschooling list.
>
> Carol
>
> Carol -- NO ONE is accusing you of being intolerant or whatever for
> saying that you want to discuss unschooling on an unschooling list.
> The very fact that you made such a statement and infered that I, DJ
> Brewer, am doing such a thing, is kind of silly.
>
> In your rather inflamatory post you also quipped
> "Nor
> do I expect to discuss structured curriculum or 'pushing'."
>
> Carol, I do not use structured curriculum and any pushing I do again,
> I claim as my own parental perogative, not that I am on some power
> trip to push my kids to do or say or be or whatever nefarious ulterior
> motive you might imagine a parent might have for giving a kid a little
> nudge to do something. You are reacting to some imaginary ME that
> doesn't exist. Don't let the word "push" push your buttons. It is
> just a word. What you imagine I am doing, I most certainly am not.
>
> I am staying with this list because I like the ideas here, and yes,
> even all the people. I may be PMSing out to the max with my reaction
> to people's statements, but hey, my period hurts like hell, so sorry.
>
> Don't go thinking I am some sort of structured pushing school at home
> mom because that is NOTHING like who I am. Nuff said.
>
> Now, as Nanci said, CAN'T WE ALL JES' GIT ALONG?????
>
> DJ Brewer
> homeschooling mother of 4
>
best wishes
Joel
All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/
Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which
conserve, restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in
society i.e. restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/25/02 8:42:16 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< When was the last time anyone posted something here that was actually about
UNschooling? >>
There were several in this digest along with your rudeness.
Did you read?
Although you keep trying to sidetrack everyone, there has actually been some
useful discussion about portfolios, meeting other unschoolers and the
conference.
Previous discussions (previous to the angry attacks on some of the long time
members and the list owner) have included the day to day coming and goings of
unschoolers, joyful discoveries they've made, helping new people understand
unschooling better and how to relax, acheivments of our children etc....
It's funny, cuz I'm on a list that Sandra started and it is the MOST
wonderful list for discussion of the joyful flow of unschooling.
None of this snarky meanness I'm experiencing here lately.
I think HEM has done a wonderful thing in supporting this list and Helen has
been an angel putting up with some of the ups and downs here.
If the intent of the list is to discuss unschooling (yes, that covers a whole
lot of topics, including rap music) then please, let us do it.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< When was the last time anyone posted something here that was actually about
UNschooling? >>
There were several in this digest along with your rudeness.
Did you read?
Although you keep trying to sidetrack everyone, there has actually been some
useful discussion about portfolios, meeting other unschoolers and the
conference.
Previous discussions (previous to the angry attacks on some of the long time
members and the list owner) have included the day to day coming and goings of
unschoolers, joyful discoveries they've made, helping new people understand
unschooling better and how to relax, acheivments of our children etc....
It's funny, cuz I'm on a list that Sandra started and it is the MOST
wonderful list for discussion of the joyful flow of unschooling.
None of this snarky meanness I'm experiencing here lately.
I think HEM has done a wonderful thing in supporting this list and Helen has
been an angel putting up with some of the ups and downs here.
If the intent of the list is to discuss unschooling (yes, that covers a whole
lot of topics, including rap music) then please, let us do it.
Ren
Betsy
**
Although you keep trying to sidetrack everyone, there has actually been
some
useful discussion about portfolios, meeting other unschoolers and the
conference.**
I just found a homeschooling portfolio book at the library. And I
checked out Linda Dobson's newer book The First Year of Homeschooling
Your Child. I think she does a **great** job in this book of
understanding how a mom with a child in school might feel. She
addresses the frustrations one might feel with a school system that
sends home a lot of mysterious homework and she acknowledges the fears a
parent might feel before moving into homeschooling.
I think this book could convert a lot of people who are trembling on the
brink. If I were financing a nationwide unschooling revolution, I'd
probably spend less on molotov cocktails and more on copies of this book.
Betsy
Although you keep trying to sidetrack everyone, there has actually been
some
useful discussion about portfolios, meeting other unschoolers and the
conference.**
I just found a homeschooling portfolio book at the library. And I
checked out Linda Dobson's newer book The First Year of Homeschooling
Your Child. I think she does a **great** job in this book of
understanding how a mom with a child in school might feel. She
addresses the frustrations one might feel with a school system that
sends home a lot of mysterious homework and she acknowledges the fears a
parent might feel before moving into homeschooling.
I think this book could convert a lot of people who are trembling on the
brink. If I were financing a nationwide unschooling revolution, I'd
probably spend less on molotov cocktails and more on copies of this book.
Betsy