Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1553
[email protected]
**Should we have ignored the plea from the French? the Jews? the Vietnamese?
the Kuwaities? Just to name a few... That would seem far crueler.**
When did we respond to pleas from "the Jews"? If you believe our government
in any way responded to the plight of the Jews in Europe in the Nazi era you
are mistaken, I'm afraid. Our government steadfastly refused to respond or
help right up until the end of the war, and then claimed that no one knew
before then.
Deborah
the Kuwaities? Just to name a few... That would seem far crueler.**
When did we respond to pleas from "the Jews"? If you believe our government
in any way responded to the plight of the Jews in Europe in the Nazi era you
are mistaken, I'm afraid. Our government steadfastly refused to respond or
help right up until the end of the war, and then claimed that no one knew
before then.
Deborah
Julie Stauffer
<<And no one, she says, wants to appear hostile to law enforcement right
now.>>
I am so sad. I mourn for the country America could have been, once almost
was, now never will be.
I am hostile to law enforcement right now. They are taking away my rights.
I am not afraid of bin Laden and I refuse to be intimidated by our
government. Guess Ashcroft was right about one thing.....we should be on
high alert.
Some college students were protesting the war just this last weekend in NYC.
Their permit forced them to break up into small groups.....only to cover a
10foot deep space separated from the other groups by the length of a block.
Then NYC firetrucks were allowed to park next to them and blow their sirens.
Anyone walking along the street who stopped to listen to the protest was
told by police to keep moving. What happened to our right to assemble? I
got this information straight from a student on another list who was present
at the demonstration.
Julie
Julie
now.>>
I am so sad. I mourn for the country America could have been, once almost
was, now never will be.
I am hostile to law enforcement right now. They are taking away my rights.
I am not afraid of bin Laden and I refuse to be intimidated by our
government. Guess Ashcroft was right about one thing.....we should be on
high alert.
Some college students were protesting the war just this last weekend in NYC.
Their permit forced them to break up into small groups.....only to cover a
10foot deep space separated from the other groups by the length of a block.
Then NYC firetrucks were allowed to park next to them and blow their sirens.
Anyone walking along the street who stopped to listen to the protest was
told by police to keep moving. What happened to our right to assemble? I
got this information straight from a student on another list who was present
at the demonstration.
Julie
Julie
Julie Stauffer
<<Shouldn't we give our nation the same chance (to learn from its
mistakes)?>>
How many chances does it get? How many people are the US ruling class going
to starve to death, hack to death, bomb to death before we cam say out loud
and without fear of retribution that we don't agree?
Here in Texas.....a letter to the editor condemning the war has people
calling for a university professor's job, a newspaper editor in Texas City
was fired after an editorial suggesting we look at possible contributing
factors, I wrote a letter to the editor and my dh is concerned about our
family being targeted for abuse.
You are only free if you are free to disagree openly and without fear. We
are no longer the land of the free. We are the land of capitalist bosses.
Julie
mistakes)?>>
How many chances does it get? How many people are the US ruling class going
to starve to death, hack to death, bomb to death before we cam say out loud
and without fear of retribution that we don't agree?
Here in Texas.....a letter to the editor condemning the war has people
calling for a university professor's job, a newspaper editor in Texas City
was fired after an editorial suggesting we look at possible contributing
factors, I wrote a letter to the editor and my dh is concerned about our
family being targeted for abuse.
You are only free if you are free to disagree openly and without fear. We
are no longer the land of the free. We are the land of capitalist bosses.
Julie
Wendy Silver
In response to Bridget,
I added the disclaimers for your benefit, I don't know what else to say. I
tried to word things so my intentions and message wouldn't be misunderstood
as they were on the other list. I love to read the British papers online,
but I don't think they offer much of a different perspective. The paper I
treasure the most is the Christian Science Monitor, they are not profitable
and are not owned by anyone with an objective other than doing the best job
not to be biased. The monitor offers great glimpses of people around the
world.
On a different note, I have been reading some of the links with assumptions
about news,i.e., Gore really won Florida, and it the information is being
hushed. These stories are just as sensational and irresponsible as some
extreme right winged news people, and the apparent objective is to agitate.
I don't see any sign of the basic five W's.
The Florida election was tainted from the beginning, because there was a
margin of error. All candidates knew this prior to the election. The media
shouldn't have called a winner before the polls closed. Jesse Jackson
shouldn't have called for a re-vote-knowing it was an impossibility, but was
agitating nevertheless, and maybe people who think they voted wrong, should
have corrected it at the time. I voted in West Palm Beach , in the center of
town, for 8 years, and never ran into a bully-all I ever encountered were
sweet, elderly people, that were willing to bend over backwards to assist,
and lines of 5 minutes or less. Also, despite news stories, Palm Beach
County is a very large county,and it isn't surprising that there were
Buchanan supporters. If one drives out of the center, the chances are pretty
likely that you'll see a truck with a big ole rebel flag, and not
nessacerily sons and daughters of the Confederates, but people that have put
new meaning on that flag. (I don't mean to imply that all of the hype about
Pat is true, I don't really know).
All we can do is move on; because by law, and just as likely, as not likely,
Bush won by votes. He is the President.
I am inspired and can feel the Spirit of America which is the loving Spirit
of the world, past generations, and future.
Sorry, getting soap-boxy and sappy, but remaining patriotic in Ohio.
Wendy
I added the disclaimers for your benefit, I don't know what else to say. I
tried to word things so my intentions and message wouldn't be misunderstood
as they were on the other list. I love to read the British papers online,
but I don't think they offer much of a different perspective. The paper I
treasure the most is the Christian Science Monitor, they are not profitable
and are not owned by anyone with an objective other than doing the best job
not to be biased. The monitor offers great glimpses of people around the
world.
On a different note, I have been reading some of the links with assumptions
about news,i.e., Gore really won Florida, and it the information is being
hushed. These stories are just as sensational and irresponsible as some
extreme right winged news people, and the apparent objective is to agitate.
I don't see any sign of the basic five W's.
The Florida election was tainted from the beginning, because there was a
margin of error. All candidates knew this prior to the election. The media
shouldn't have called a winner before the polls closed. Jesse Jackson
shouldn't have called for a re-vote-knowing it was an impossibility, but was
agitating nevertheless, and maybe people who think they voted wrong, should
have corrected it at the time. I voted in West Palm Beach , in the center of
town, for 8 years, and never ran into a bully-all I ever encountered were
sweet, elderly people, that were willing to bend over backwards to assist,
and lines of 5 minutes or less. Also, despite news stories, Palm Beach
County is a very large county,and it isn't surprising that there were
Buchanan supporters. If one drives out of the center, the chances are pretty
likely that you'll see a truck with a big ole rebel flag, and not
nessacerily sons and daughters of the Confederates, but people that have put
new meaning on that flag. (I don't mean to imply that all of the hype about
Pat is true, I don't really know).
All we can do is move on; because by law, and just as likely, as not likely,
Bush won by votes. He is the President.
I am inspired and can feel the Spirit of America which is the loving Spirit
of the world, past generations, and future.
Sorry, getting soap-boxy and sappy, but remaining patriotic in Ohio.
Wendy
Julie Stauffer
<<allow our government to run willy nilly over citizen's rights because of
threats?>>
The "supposed" threats that are secret and vague are concerning to me.
Seems like every time people start questioning the government, we get warned
of an impending threat somewhere, with something, from somebody.
Also, talks of government sanctioned assassinations and secret military
tribunals instead of trials...Sweeping surveillance of citizens in case they
might speak against the government...People losing jobs because of their
speech and ideas....People being harrassed for not being "American" enough
if they don't tow the party line.
Does this sound like Nazi Germany to anyone else?
Julie
threats?>>
The "supposed" threats that are secret and vague are concerning to me.
Seems like every time people start questioning the government, we get warned
of an impending threat somewhere, with something, from somebody.
Also, talks of government sanctioned assassinations and secret military
tribunals instead of trials...Sweeping surveillance of citizens in case they
might speak against the government...People losing jobs because of their
speech and ideas....People being harrassed for not being "American" enough
if they don't tow the party line.
Does this sound like Nazi Germany to anyone else?
Julie
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Wendy Silver" <wew99@s...> wrote:
seem to be saying that the protestors were wrong and violent but
then at other times you seem to think they were right to protest.
I'm not really sure where you stand on the issue.
very well reasoned and middle of the road stuff and the ultimate
point seems to be that if the study had shown he won, they would have
released it. If it showed there is no way to tell OR that he lost
they wouldn't release it.
I am of the opinion that there really is no way to be absolutely sure
of the voter's intent in Florida and elsewhere for that matter. I
think we need to look at the issue in depth to figure out exactly
what went wrong and why. Not so we can challenge the standing
president, but so that we can be assured that nothing like this will
ever happen again.
Bridget
> In response to Bridget,to say. I
> I added the disclaimers for your benefit, I don't know what else
> tried to word things so my intentions and message wouldn't bemisunderstood
> as they were on the other list.I guess the thing is, more than anything, that some of the time you
seem to be saying that the protestors were wrong and violent but
then at other times you seem to think they were right to protest.
I'm not really sure where you stand on the issue.
>assumptions
> On a different note, I have been reading some of the links with
> about news,i.e., Gore really won Florida,[snip]
>was a
> The Florida election was tainted from the beginning, because there
> margin of error.I've seen some extreme coverage of that issue but I've also seen some
very well reasoned and middle of the road stuff and the ultimate
point seems to be that if the study had shown he won, they would have
released it. If it showed there is no way to tell OR that he lost
they wouldn't release it.
I am of the opinion that there really is no way to be absolutely sure
of the voter's intent in Florida and elsewhere for that matter. I
think we need to look at the issue in depth to figure out exactly
what went wrong and why. Not so we can challenge the standing
president, but so that we can be assured that nothing like this will
ever happen again.
Bridget
Tia Leschke
>In Canada a women's studies prof is being maligned because of a speech she
>
>Here in Texas.....a letter to the editor condemning the war has people
>calling for a university professor's job, a newspaper editor in Texas City
>was fired after an editorial suggesting we look at possible contributing
>factors, I wrote a letter to the editor and my dh is concerned about our
>family being targeted for abuse.
gave. I agreed with almost everything she said, but the media is calling
it a hate message. I guess we're not allowed to say anything negative
about the poor U S of A right now. People are complaining that she's being
paid by the public purse. I guess that means she loses her right to
freedom of expression because of that. They just don't get it.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Tia Leschke
>Me. Bush and his gang scare me more than bin Laden. And that's saying
>Does this sound like Nazi Germany to anyone else?
something.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Lynda
Welllll, Julie, seems they are already there!
Lynda
==========
Times ( London ) Monday, October 22, 2001
by Damian Whitworth
FBI Considers Torture as Suspects Stay Silent
AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher
interrogation
techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of silence from
jailed
suspected members of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network, according to a
report yesterday.
More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in
custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But
investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any
of
them to talk.
Options being weighed include "truth" drugs, pressure tactics and
extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more
used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations.
"We're into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration
has
begun to appear," a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.
Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is
inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal charges
for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested that the
time
might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium pentothal, would be
deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.
The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also
persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their
extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher
reception in jails back home.
One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan,
suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board
the
plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he
acted
suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in how to
steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and France
are
regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the United States.
The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to
break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and
new
lives in the witness protection program, have failed to break the
silence.
"We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck.
Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for
them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . . .
where we don't have a choice, and we are probably getting there," an FBI
agent involved in the investigation told the paper.
The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed Azmath
and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the attacks
traveling with false passports, craft knives such as those used in the
hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi driver alleged to
have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some legal experts believe
that the US Supreme Court, which has a conservative tilt, might be
prepared to support curtailing the civil liberties of prisoners in
terrorism cases.
However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert
Blitzer, a former head of the FBI's counter-terrorism section. He said
that the practice "goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you
are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them."
In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most of
whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe
there
could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, and the
Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are probably
being planned.
Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected
ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Center,
had
been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators retracing
his
movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at Norfolk,
Virginia, in February and April this year.
Copyright 2001 Times Newspapers Ltd.
Lynda
==========
Times ( London ) Monday, October 22, 2001
by Damian Whitworth
FBI Considers Torture as Suspects Stay Silent
AMERICAN investigators are considering resorting to harsher
interrogation
techniques, including torture, after facing a wall of silence from
jailed
suspected members of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaeda network, according to a
report yesterday.
More than 150 people who were picked up after September 11 remain in
custody, with four men the focus of particularly intense scrutiny. But
investigators have found the usual methods have failed to persuade any
of
them to talk.
Options being weighed include "truth" drugs, pressure tactics and
extraditing the suspects to countries whose security services are more
used to employing a heavy-handed approach during interrogations.
"We're into this thing for 35 days and nobody is talking. Frustration
has
begun to appear," a senior FBI official told The Washington Post.
Under US law, evidence extracted using physical pressure or torture is
inadmissible in court and interrogators could also face criminal charges
for employing such methods. However, investigators suggested that the
time
might soon come when a truth serum, such as sodium pentothal, would be
deemed an acceptable tool for interrogators.
The public pressure for results in the war on terrorism might also
persuade the FBI to encourage the countries of suspects to seek their
extradition, in the knowledge that they could be given a much rougher
reception in jails back home.
One of the four key suspects is Zacarias Moussaoui, a French Moroccan,
suspected of being a twentieth hijacker who failed to make it on board
the
plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. Moussaoui was detained after he
acted
suspiciously at a Minnesota flying school, requesting lessons in how to
steer a plane but not how to take off or land. Both Morocco and France
are
regarded as having harsher interrogation methods than the United States.
The investigators have been disappointed that the usual incentives to
break suspects, such as promises of shorter sentences, money, jobs and
new
lives in the witness protection program, have failed to break the
silence.
"We are known for humanitarian treatment, so basically we are stuck.
Usually there is some incentive, some angle to play, what you can do for
them. But it could get to that spot where we could go to pressure . . .
where we don't have a choice, and we are probably getting there," an FBI
agent involved in the investigation told the paper.
The other key suspects being held in New York are Mohammed Jaweed Azmath
and Ayub Ali Khan, Indians who were caught the day after the attacks
traveling with false passports, craft knives such as those used in the
hijackings and hair dye. Nabil Almarabh, a Boston taxi driver alleged to
have links to al-Qaeda, is also being held. Some legal experts believe
that the US Supreme Court, which has a conservative tilt, might be
prepared to support curtailing the civil liberties of prisoners in
terrorism cases.
However, a warning that torture should be avoided came from Robert
Blitzer, a former head of the FBI's counter-terrorism section. He said
that the practice "goes against every grain in my body. Chances are you
are going to get the wrong person and risk damage or killing them."
In all, about 800 people have been rounded up since the attacks, most of
whom are expected to be found to be innocent. Investigators believe
there
could be hundreds of people linked to al-Qaeda living in the US, and the
Bush Administration has issued a warning that more attacks are probably
being planned.
Newsweek magazine reports today that Mohammed Atta, the suspected
ringleader who died in the first plane to hit the World Trade Center,
had
been looking into hitting an aircraft carrier. Investigators retracing
his
movements found that he visited the huge US Navy base at Norfolk,
Virginia, in February and April this year.
Copyright 2001 Times Newspapers Ltd.
----- Original Message -----
From: Julie Stauffer <jnjstau@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1553
> <<allow our government to run willy nilly over citizen's rights because of
> threats?>>
>
> The "supposed" threats that are secret and vague are concerning to me.
> Seems like every time people start questioning the government, we get
warned
> of an impending threat somewhere, with something, from somebody.
>
> Also, talks of government sanctioned assassinations and secret military
> tribunals instead of trials...Sweeping surveillance of citizens in case
they
> might speak against the government...People losing jobs because of their
> speech and ideas....People being harrassed for not being "American" enough
> if they don't tow the party line.
>
> Does this sound like Nazi Germany to anyone else?
>
> Julie
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>