Math
::she just is::
Christina said:
(I worked on a CD-ROM course under a private high school), but once I
graduated, I told myself I would never, ever look at math again. I hardly
retained *any* knowledge from it. However, I have started discovering that I
actually *can* learn math -- just not when I'm made to. I'm good at grasping
the concepts especially, something that I thought I wasn't able to do
before. I'm reviewing math now -- from pre-algebra! It seems that everything
from division and up I've forgotten :-( But I'm getting there (I'm up to
fractions, yay). I wrote an article on "Rediscovering Math" as well -- I
hope to send it into GWS sometime soon!
http://www.camenaworks.com/Eryn/Unschooling/art_math.htm
Love,
Eryn
==
"I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky;
then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of
being a butterfuly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am
a man?" - Chuang Tsu
http://www.camenaworks.com/Eryn/
#24591173 ::she just is::
AIM :: Opal Fayre
>Well I did take all Algebra/Geometry etc. NOT because I wanted to but mydidn't
>parents made me so I could get into a good college. I hated it!!!! I
>understand it......I got horrible grades in it. And to this day, I do notmore
>retain anything from it. For me, Business Math and Basic Accounting was
>beneficial for me.I took Algebra 1, Geometry, and Algebra 2 to to get my high school diploma
(I worked on a CD-ROM course under a private high school), but once I
graduated, I told myself I would never, ever look at math again. I hardly
retained *any* knowledge from it. However, I have started discovering that I
actually *can* learn math -- just not when I'm made to. I'm good at grasping
the concepts especially, something that I thought I wasn't able to do
before. I'm reviewing math now -- from pre-algebra! It seems that everything
from division and up I've forgotten :-( But I'm getting there (I'm up to
fractions, yay). I wrote an article on "Rediscovering Math" as well -- I
hope to send it into GWS sometime soon!
http://www.camenaworks.com/Eryn/Unschooling/art_math.htm
Love,
Eryn
==
"I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky;
then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of
being a butterfuly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am
a man?" - Chuang Tsu
http://www.camenaworks.com/Eryn/
#24591173 ::she just is::
AIM :: Opal Fayre
Tea Lover Denise
FYI, I recently bought my oldest daughter (BS, Math) a book entitled,
"The Universe and The Teacup ~ The Mathematics of Truth and Beauty" by
K.C. Cole. She is loving it! This book illustrates how math is connected
to *everything* in the world.
I'm going to read it after her. I'd like to become more "comfortable"
with the world of math ... not just its numbers and equations.
)
(
)
___
\_/O
Denise, a Tea Lover in South Carolina
Stop by for a cup of tea ~ http://www.angelfire.com/sc/tealover
"The Universe and The Teacup ~ The Mathematics of Truth and Beauty" by
K.C. Cole. She is loving it! This book illustrates how math is connected
to *everything* in the world.
I'm going to read it after her. I'd like to become more "comfortable"
with the world of math ... not just its numbers and equations.
)
(
)
___
\_/O
Denise, a Tea Lover in South Carolina
Stop by for a cup of tea ~ http://www.angelfire.com/sc/tealover
Pam Hartley
----------
where people sat him down and tried to force him to learn math for an hour a
day.
The thing to be teaching our children is *how to learn* when they are *ready
to learn*. If your daughter did absolutely NO MATH for four years (an
impossibility, by the way, I'll get to that in a minute) but she learned the
priceless lesson of how to learn something, it would not matter a whit. In
four years, she could say, as Lisa's daughter did, "Ack! I do not know
fractions!" and sit herself down and learn them. Same with anything.
But, really, she can't "not do math" for four years (or four days). She can
"not pick up a math book", but so what? She could not pick up a math book
for the rest of her natural life and still be a math genius.
Math is not just (and not best) in books called "Learn Math in 170 nearly
pain-free lessons". Math is all around us. We breath it and live it and sit
on it all day, every day.
Every time your daughter goes to the store and buys something, she uses math
(how big a bill do I give them? How much change do I get back? Are these
peaches a better bargain, or are those? I have $20.00 and I need to buy
these five things, so can I get the big box of noodles, or only the small
one?). Every time she looks through a TV Guide she is using math (When does
that program start? Oh, look, this program is on for an hour and overlaps
the other one I want by half an hour, when do I need to start the VCR?).
Every time she helps you pay the bills, budgets the family's weekly money,
is put in charge of the map for a family trip, earns money babysitting the
kid next door, has her own savings account and calculates the interest to
make sure the bank has not made an error against her, sits down with her
father and builds a bat or bird or doghouse, she is DOING MATH.
It is extremely valuable to an unschooling parent to learn to see what
"subject" is inherent in what their children are doing. MUCH more valuable
than sitting and fretting about the child "not doing math" (or science, or
reading, or history). The textbooks have nothing to do with it. Look at what
your daughter is *really* doing, play the fun game of translating it all
into "subjects" and ENJOY. It often helps to have other people look at a
list of your daughter's activities for one week (post it here, I love
breaking things into subjects.) It often helps to keep a journal for a month
on "what my kids did all day" and then read back and be amazed by what they
did learn.
There is a the overwhelming myth that learning is hard, must be linear,
comes only with textbooks and teachers. One afternoon building that
birdhouse teaches your daughter more about geometry than a semester of
sitting bored in a classroom (or against her will with Mom at the kitchen
table).
It is entirely likely that at some stage your daughter will want to do more
"academically formal" work. The key here is that the timetable is HERS. She
may want to do three "chapters of math" next week, or it might not be for
three years. It doesn't matter, in the meantime she is still learning and
living math.
Give her real life things that involve math. Teach her to balance the family
checkbook and put her in charge of it each month when the bank statement
comes. Put her in charge of clipping coupons on things you use and let her
have half the money she saves from the grocery bill for her own use. Play
poker for penny stakes to teach about probability. Yahtzee is the best math
game ever. There are a million ways for a child to see the fun and use of
math, and one sure way (enforced drudgery over math books) to kill any sense
of that fun. If she has been schooled, or forced into curriculum, in the
past, she will have a lot of healing to do.
Pam
>From: [email protected]It's highly likely that the 18 year old was schooled, and in a position
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 295
>Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999, 3:15 AM
>
>Someone asked her age she is 10 1/2 yo. And I know she wants me to direct
>her more because she told me directly that is what she thought I should do.
> Part of my panic came in when her younger sister (who loves math) suddenly
>joined her boat and quite doing any at all! Part of my panic is the
>importance I place on math itself. And can she write off doing math?
>Maybe not completely, but then again, have you ever worked with a 18 yo
>that could literally not reliably count to 5 - even when counting
>merchandise? I have - I believe it is possible to be nearly completely
>illiterate when it comes to math.
where people sat him down and tried to force him to learn math for an hour a
day.
The thing to be teaching our children is *how to learn* when they are *ready
to learn*. If your daughter did absolutely NO MATH for four years (an
impossibility, by the way, I'll get to that in a minute) but she learned the
priceless lesson of how to learn something, it would not matter a whit. In
four years, she could say, as Lisa's daughter did, "Ack! I do not know
fractions!" and sit herself down and learn them. Same with anything.
But, really, she can't "not do math" for four years (or four days). She can
"not pick up a math book", but so what? She could not pick up a math book
for the rest of her natural life and still be a math genius.
Math is not just (and not best) in books called "Learn Math in 170 nearly
pain-free lessons". Math is all around us. We breath it and live it and sit
on it all day, every day.
Every time your daughter goes to the store and buys something, she uses math
(how big a bill do I give them? How much change do I get back? Are these
peaches a better bargain, or are those? I have $20.00 and I need to buy
these five things, so can I get the big box of noodles, or only the small
one?). Every time she looks through a TV Guide she is using math (When does
that program start? Oh, look, this program is on for an hour and overlaps
the other one I want by half an hour, when do I need to start the VCR?).
Every time she helps you pay the bills, budgets the family's weekly money,
is put in charge of the map for a family trip, earns money babysitting the
kid next door, has her own savings account and calculates the interest to
make sure the bank has not made an error against her, sits down with her
father and builds a bat or bird or doghouse, she is DOING MATH.
It is extremely valuable to an unschooling parent to learn to see what
"subject" is inherent in what their children are doing. MUCH more valuable
than sitting and fretting about the child "not doing math" (or science, or
reading, or history). The textbooks have nothing to do with it. Look at what
your daughter is *really* doing, play the fun game of translating it all
into "subjects" and ENJOY. It often helps to have other people look at a
list of your daughter's activities for one week (post it here, I love
breaking things into subjects.) It often helps to keep a journal for a month
on "what my kids did all day" and then read back and be amazed by what they
did learn.
There is a the overwhelming myth that learning is hard, must be linear,
comes only with textbooks and teachers. One afternoon building that
birdhouse teaches your daughter more about geometry than a semester of
sitting bored in a classroom (or against her will with Mom at the kitchen
table).
It is entirely likely that at some stage your daughter will want to do more
"academically formal" work. The key here is that the timetable is HERS. She
may want to do three "chapters of math" next week, or it might not be for
three years. It doesn't matter, in the meantime she is still learning and
living math.
Give her real life things that involve math. Teach her to balance the family
checkbook and put her in charge of it each month when the bank statement
comes. Put her in charge of clipping coupons on things you use and let her
have half the money she saves from the grocery bill for her own use. Play
poker for penny stakes to teach about probability. Yahtzee is the best math
game ever. There are a million ways for a child to see the fun and use of
math, and one sure way (enforced drudgery over math books) to kill any sense
of that fun. If she has been schooled, or forced into curriculum, in the
past, she will have a lot of healing to do.
Pam
Pam Hartley
----------
She has deschooling to do. She probably truly believes that she cannot do
this. It's no surprise -- most of society, the local teacher's union, her
Aunt Mathilda and you also have varying doubts.
I think it's dangerous to direct our children's learning, even when they ask
it. I don't think it's dangerous to take them very seriously in their fear
and sit down with them and say, "Look, I'm not going to direct you. That
would be emminently silly since I am not you and do not know what you want
to learn, or what you should learn, or when you should learn it. This is
your life, and your education. However, I am MORE than happy to talk to you
about what you feel you 'should be doing' right now, and help you to get
whatever resources or materials or assistance from me you need in using
them. I will also be happy to watch you practice the fine art of Sensible
Quitting and abandon working on anything that it turns out you are not
actually interested in at a given time."
There's a lot in there. There's confidence in her abilities, an offer of
assistance without becoming Grand Poobah, and most important to a formerly
schooled or schooled-at-home child there is the assurance that if she finds
out that she *doesn't* want to raise mice for profit as an avenue to
learning about the market economy that you will not hesitate to help her
sell off critters, cages, and the whole caboodle rather than lecturing her
on "quitting". :)
Pam
>From: [email protected]This is part two. :)
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 295
>Date: Sat, Nov 13, 1999, 3:15 AM
>
>And I know she wants me to direct
>her more because she told me directly that is what she thought I should do.
She has deschooling to do. She probably truly believes that she cannot do
this. It's no surprise -- most of society, the local teacher's union, her
Aunt Mathilda and you also have varying doubts.
I think it's dangerous to direct our children's learning, even when they ask
it. I don't think it's dangerous to take them very seriously in their fear
and sit down with them and say, "Look, I'm not going to direct you. That
would be emminently silly since I am not you and do not know what you want
to learn, or what you should learn, or when you should learn it. This is
your life, and your education. However, I am MORE than happy to talk to you
about what you feel you 'should be doing' right now, and help you to get
whatever resources or materials or assistance from me you need in using
them. I will also be happy to watch you practice the fine art of Sensible
Quitting and abandon working on anything that it turns out you are not
actually interested in at a given time."
There's a lot in there. There's confidence in her abilities, an offer of
assistance without becoming Grand Poobah, and most important to a formerly
schooled or schooled-at-home child there is the assurance that if she finds
out that she *doesn't* want to raise mice for profit as an avenue to
learning about the market economy that you will not hesitate to help her
sell off critters, cages, and the whole caboodle rather than lecturing her
on "quitting". :)
Pam
[email protected]
I carry enough dice for yatzee in my purse. we use it when we are waiting, or
somewhere that we can. I make the little one just count the numbers, and do
simple math. We find all neat ways to use dice...Keeps them from being bored!
LOL
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between sets,
I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the lead. s.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
somewhere that we can. I make the little one just count the numbers, and do
simple math. We find all neat ways to use dice...Keeps them from being bored!
LOL
Blessings,
Stephanie
Teacher and Mommy of 4 homeschooling fanatics, wife to the best principal,
protector of many pets and wild ones, and unpublished writer.
I think that I will move closer to the gym, that way between sets,
I can run home and eat something sweet to keep up my energy! s.
Believe in others, and be a part; believe in yourself, and be the lead. s.
***Life's Learnings Academy - Protecting Our Children***
IT'S GREAT TO LEARN WHERE THE PRINCIPAL LOVES YOU
ICQ: 43428000 AOL IM: Lifeslearn
rpaul
<<We made fraction wheels out of pizza cardboard rounds and had great fun
making them but there they lay. So the other day I took out the math books
again and started in the chapters on fractions - trying to make this
interesting and meaningful. I've scaled it back to no more than 15
problems in a day but still sense her boredom, frustration and general
dislike of the topic.
Help! How can I ignore this??? Math is in every possible thing we do. She
can't just right it off for the rest of her life. In ways she wants me to
tell her what to do (still thinking I should do what the school did) and
yet, she resents it when I push even a little. Ack!
Frustration Incorporated!
In His Service,
Laraine>>
Okay, Laraine, remind me of what I say here, next month when I need it -
LOL.
Have you tried cooking as a way of teaching fractions? With measuring cups
and spoons? Saving a bunch of change for a couple of weeks, and counting
it out (5's, 10's, 2's and multiplication).
I was trying to teach our son to count by 2's (guess what... He learned to
count by 10's from the table of contents from a book I read to him! The
chapters were by 10's!) and as I was laying out the pennies, he was
ignoring me completely (or so I thought). Next thing I know, somehow I'd
laid out a group of pennies by 3's (didn't do it on purpose. Remember I
was trying to show counting by 2's here). He looked at the pennies and
declared, "Mama, look! Did you know that three 3's is 9?!" And he
remembered it from that experience! The year before, he was looking at his
guitar and noticed the three tuning knobs on both sides, and realized that
3+3=6, and never forgot it. If he'd written it 50 times, it would have
stayed in memory, but this applied it in such a way that he never forgot.
Our son learned 10% from the tithe. Also, you may be surprised at some
things she knows. I saw on the "curriculum" we were shown, that we were
suppose to "cover" perimeter this year. I thought this was absurd, for
such a young child. Dh disagreed, reciting examples as: "Well what if he
wants to put up a fence one day? He'll have to know that." Well I asked
dh when he was ever going to fix the gate, and he said that was beside the
point! Well, I said, "fine", and asked our son to pretend that the box was
a backyard and he wanted to build a fence around it. Than I asked him how
he would know how much wood to get to build it, how many inches long. He
said, "Well, first I'd need a ruler." So I got the ruler. than he said,
"And I guess I'd have to measure" and he measured each side of the box!
etc! I looked at dh and said, well, perimeter covered! LOL.
I don't know how old your daughter is. But what about helping out with the
registry of the checkbook, or other everyday house mathematical
responsibilities, etc.
There are also some okay computer programs (i.e., math blaster, jump
start). they have some fall backs, but she may enjoy it. I view them as
just another game.
There is a book I have not seen yet, so I don't know how good it is (or
what level it is, but I know it covers fractions to some extent), but the
book is called "Math Art". Our son really likes art, so I'm checking out
the book. Our library system has a copy of it, and it comes from
Scholastic.
Well, none of this may be useful to you, LOL. But I hope something is :-)
Diane
making them but there they lay. So the other day I took out the math books
again and started in the chapters on fractions - trying to make this
interesting and meaningful. I've scaled it back to no more than 15
problems in a day but still sense her boredom, frustration and general
dislike of the topic.
Help! How can I ignore this??? Math is in every possible thing we do. She
can't just right it off for the rest of her life. In ways she wants me to
tell her what to do (still thinking I should do what the school did) and
yet, she resents it when I push even a little. Ack!
Frustration Incorporated!
In His Service,
Laraine>>
Okay, Laraine, remind me of what I say here, next month when I need it -
LOL.
Have you tried cooking as a way of teaching fractions? With measuring cups
and spoons? Saving a bunch of change for a couple of weeks, and counting
it out (5's, 10's, 2's and multiplication).
I was trying to teach our son to count by 2's (guess what... He learned to
count by 10's from the table of contents from a book I read to him! The
chapters were by 10's!) and as I was laying out the pennies, he was
ignoring me completely (or so I thought). Next thing I know, somehow I'd
laid out a group of pennies by 3's (didn't do it on purpose. Remember I
was trying to show counting by 2's here). He looked at the pennies and
declared, "Mama, look! Did you know that three 3's is 9?!" And he
remembered it from that experience! The year before, he was looking at his
guitar and noticed the three tuning knobs on both sides, and realized that
3+3=6, and never forgot it. If he'd written it 50 times, it would have
stayed in memory, but this applied it in such a way that he never forgot.
Our son learned 10% from the tithe. Also, you may be surprised at some
things she knows. I saw on the "curriculum" we were shown, that we were
suppose to "cover" perimeter this year. I thought this was absurd, for
such a young child. Dh disagreed, reciting examples as: "Well what if he
wants to put up a fence one day? He'll have to know that." Well I asked
dh when he was ever going to fix the gate, and he said that was beside the
point! Well, I said, "fine", and asked our son to pretend that the box was
a backyard and he wanted to build a fence around it. Than I asked him how
he would know how much wood to get to build it, how many inches long. He
said, "Well, first I'd need a ruler." So I got the ruler. than he said,
"And I guess I'd have to measure" and he measured each side of the box!
etc! I looked at dh and said, well, perimeter covered! LOL.
I don't know how old your daughter is. But what about helping out with the
registry of the checkbook, or other everyday house mathematical
responsibilities, etc.
There are also some okay computer programs (i.e., math blaster, jump
start). they have some fall backs, but she may enjoy it. I view them as
just another game.
There is a book I have not seen yet, so I don't know how good it is (or
what level it is, but I know it covers fractions to some extent), but the
book is called "Math Art". Our son really likes art, so I'm checking out
the book. Our library system has a copy of it, and it comes from
Scholastic.
Well, none of this may be useful to you, LOL. But I hope something is :-)
Diane
Campbell & Wyman
>There is a the overwhelming myth that learning is hard, must be linear,Put her in charge of clipping coupons on things you use and let her
>comes only with textbooks and teachers. One afternoon building that
>birdhouse teaches your daughter more about geometry than a semester of
>sitting bored in a classroom (or against her will with Mom at the kitchen
>table)......
>have half the money she saves from the grocery bill for her own use. PlayThanks Pam...I like this discussion. It reminded me that a couple of years
>poker for penny stakes to teach about probability. Yahtzee is the best math
>game ever. There are a million ways for a child to see the fun and use of
>math, ...
>Pam
>
back the girls designed and built a tree house. It was drawn (with a
carpenter/friend) as a blueprint and then they built it on the ground in
pieces and put it up...it took months and they had a blast. Math in every
sense.
I'd like to let go of the textbook type mentality to math. soooo ...Thanks
for the ideas and the reimforcement.
That is why I really enjoy this list. Variety. And if we all had the same
ideas..it would be seriously boring. :)
Brooke
more rain...and the bridge washed out on the way to town...oh well, let's
play Yahtzee :)
brynlee@...
rpaul
Laraine, I was just looking at a catalog for something completely different
(typical for me :-) ), and I came across that ol' game "yatzee". Have you
tried using that one as a resource? Just a thought. Sorry if anyone
mentioned it already! I'm behind in email, and checking off for the night
and for Sunday :-).
Diane
(typical for me :-) ), and I came across that ol' game "yatzee". Have you
tried using that one as a resource? Just a thought. Sorry if anyone
mentioned it already! I'm behind in email, and checking off for the night
and for Sunday :-).
Diane
John O. Andersen
Larraine,
Have you seen http://www.mathstories.com?
Our kids have really enjoyed those story problems. I think it's a great way
to "trick" them into thinking that story problems are fun.
I wish someone had tricked me like that. My public school education led me
to believe that story problems were hard and to be avoided.
John
Have you seen http://www.mathstories.com?
Our kids have really enjoyed those story problems. I think it's a great way
to "trick" them into thinking that story problems are fun.
I wish someone had tricked me like that. My public school education led me
to believe that story problems were hard and to be avoided.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 1999 9:52 PM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Quick and Easy Requests
> From: The O'Donnells <praxis@...>
>
> At 07:45 PM 11/19/99 +0000, you wrote:
> She will do real life math almost always. At the
> >grocery store, I ask her,......
>
> OK here's one, my dd today asked me about a fraction while cooking. But
> she did not want to think it through herself she just wanted me to GIVE
her
> a quick and easy answer. How do you all handle this?
>
> DH has finally come around and has begun to see we can take the time to
> back off on the math push at our house. (yes, we are still struggling
with
> this) But I'm not sure I want to give her quick easy answers to things,
> spell every word for her she does not know so she doesn't have to look it
> up, etc. How do you all handle the quick and easy requests?
>
>
> In His Service,
>
> Laraine
> praxis@...
> Subscribe to Our Prairie Primer Today Community at:
> http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/PrairiePrimerToday
>
> > Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
Olivia
I know it is not very unschooling-like to ask about this but...
My 7 yo has gotten to a point where he has expressed a need for some
help learning basic math (for scorekeeping in games and managing
money, etc.). He has little confidence in this area. I am not sure
how to proceed to help him without turning him off to math concepts,
as has happened in the past. He doesn't like doing math on paper and
has a hard time calculating in his head because he says he can't
remember math facts. I thought he might like some program (Math-U-
See?) that uses blocks because he is very hands-on and enjoys
building with Legos. So, what do you do if a child asks for help in a
specific subject? I don't think it is anti-unschooling to provide
help through a special program as long as it has been requested. Any
suggestions for math?
Thanks in advance,
Olivia
My 7 yo has gotten to a point where he has expressed a need for some
help learning basic math (for scorekeeping in games and managing
money, etc.). He has little confidence in this area. I am not sure
how to proceed to help him without turning him off to math concepts,
as has happened in the past. He doesn't like doing math on paper and
has a hard time calculating in his head because he says he can't
remember math facts. I thought he might like some program (Math-U-
See?) that uses blocks because he is very hands-on and enjoys
building with Legos. So, what do you do if a child asks for help in a
specific subject? I don't think it is anti-unschooling to provide
help through a special program as long as it has been requested. Any
suggestions for math?
Thanks in advance,
Olivia
Corallyn
I don't know about you, but I encourage my children to learn math and
reading by providing games that teach these concepts. Then I make
sure they don't just sit on the shelf. I will say, "Hey, you wanna
play bing, boggle, dominos, etc." Usually, they are excited to play.
Sometimes they want to do something different. I always let them
decide if they want to play or not and never force them too. I don't
think unschooling is always completely letting your child go on their
own, so much as it is the manner in which you approach their
learning. Always, always help and offer help to a child who is asking
for it, or seems to be struggling with something they are trying to
do. As for suggestions on learing basic math we play dominos. There
are many different ways to play. We match the dominos, we play by
number so that the dots that are placed together have to equal a
certain number either by adding or subtracting, which ever the case
may be. There are also board games you can get at the store that
require math. The only other one that comes to mind is Hi Ho Cherry
Oh. I would have to look at them to tell you any others. I have also
heard of a game that is speciffic for dealing with money. It is
called Presto Change-O. If you want more info on it let me know.
Corallyn
--- In [email protected], "Olivia " <liv2learn@y...>
wrote:
reading by providing games that teach these concepts. Then I make
sure they don't just sit on the shelf. I will say, "Hey, you wanna
play bing, boggle, dominos, etc." Usually, they are excited to play.
Sometimes they want to do something different. I always let them
decide if they want to play or not and never force them too. I don't
think unschooling is always completely letting your child go on their
own, so much as it is the manner in which you approach their
learning. Always, always help and offer help to a child who is asking
for it, or seems to be struggling with something they are trying to
do. As for suggestions on learing basic math we play dominos. There
are many different ways to play. We match the dominos, we play by
number so that the dots that are placed together have to equal a
certain number either by adding or subtracting, which ever the case
may be. There are also board games you can get at the store that
require math. The only other one that comes to mind is Hi Ho Cherry
Oh. I would have to look at them to tell you any others. I have also
heard of a game that is speciffic for dealing with money. It is
called Presto Change-O. If you want more info on it let me know.
Corallyn
--- In [email protected], "Olivia " <liv2learn@y...>
wrote:
> I know it is not very unschooling-like to ask about this but...some
> My 7 yo has gotten to a point where he has expressed a need for
> help learning basic math (for scorekeeping in games and managingconcepts,
> money, etc.). He has little confidence in this area. I am not sure
> how to proceed to help him without turning him off to math
> as has happened in the past. He doesn't like doing math on paperand
> has a hard time calculating in his head because he says he can'ta
> remember math facts. I thought he might like some program (Math-U-
> See?) that uses blocks because he is very hands-on and enjoys
> building with Legos. So, what do you do if a child asks for help in
> specific subject? I don't think it is anti-unschooling to provideAny
> help through a special program as long as it has been requested.
> suggestions for math?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Olivia
Billy or Nancy
Olivia,
Our favorite math program for younger kids is Miquon math. I should warn you
that I am an independent bookseller and Miquon is one of the products we
carry so I may seem biased, but the reason we carry the Miquon is because we
like it. We could make more money selling Saxon or Math-U-See, but when it
comes to pre-highschool math, we just don't like them as much and they are
more expensive so we don't carry them.
Here is something I previously wrote up in response to questions about why I
like Miquon:
A lot of people are surprised that in the very first Miquon book you get
into things like multiplication and division of fractions. Traditional math
programs don't get into this type of stuff until much later, but using the
rods makes it seem like common sense.
The "Labsheet Annotations" is important to have. Using the Labsheet
Annotations not only gives you explanations of answers and other activities,
but it also has a chart that explains the code letters and numbers on the
work book pages. These codes enable you to use the system in very different
ways. You can take a standard approach and just go page by page through the
books. If your child suddenly develops a fascination with fractions, you may
decide that you want to pursue that. The codes will tell you how to skip
through the books so you can find just the sections on fractions, going from
the introductory concepts to more advanced concepts. This means you can
either go through the books page by page to focus on the level of the
materials, or you can decide to focus on concepts (adding, length, area,
volume, factoring, squaring etc)
There are several things I like about the program. One of the first things
is the idea of using colors for the different levels instead of ranking them
by grade or age. This frustrates some people because they want to know what
grade level their child is at, but I think ability is more important than
age and kids should work at their own level and not have to endure negative
pressure because the book says its for kids younger than them. If grandma
asks what level math youre doing and the response is I finished orange and
am just starting red, theres no judgmental information there. Colors are
neutral unlike grade levels or numbers. (By the way, I think there can be
just as much negative pressure if everyone is complimenting the child for
being ahead of their grade level).
Another thing I like is the variety of approaches used. There is good use of
manipulatives and the presentation of problems in a variety of ways. There
are also different strategies given for solving problems. For example, one
section on the addition of a string of numbers shows 8+1+2+9+3= ? The
solution is not to just get the totals, but to do it by drawing lines to
connect the numbers that add to 10 and then adding them (8+2, 1+9, 3+7).
Kids too often memorize multiplication tables and learn how to get correct
answers but dont really understand what they are doing. Math is usually
taught as if there is only one right answer and only one right way to get
it. But that is not true. At a recent support group meeting, most people
said that 3x9=27, and they just knew it from memorizing the multiplication
tables. I was one of two people that said they rounded the 9 up to 10 and
thought of the problem as (3 x 10)- (3x(10-9) or 30-3. This may seem more
convoluted, but it actually can help build important estimation skills and
make it easier to do quick calculations in your head. If your mind works
that way, you should be encouraged to approach math that way instead of by
rote memorization of multiplication tables.
I also like that the program is fairly inexpensive. If you find it doesnt
work for your child, you dont feel the urge to force them to use it to get
your moneys worth. If it works very well and your child wants to move more
rapidly, you dont have to feel like holding them back because the next book
is so expensive. Although the program is designed for grades 1 through 3,
many people use it for 1 through 6 as you are basically at a pre-algebra
level when you complete the program.
Bottom line is that I think most programs teach you to do math, while this
one puts more emphasis on understanding it on several levels. You see
different strategies for solving problems, you do hands on activities that
are fun, and you apply what you learn to different situations. Rote
memorization may be good for tests where there is a time limit and you have
to answer quickly, but understanding concepts will help you solve more
problems in the long run (especially later in life after you forget all
those equations that you so diligently memorized for a test).
If you made it this far and are interested in more information or a place
where you can get the entire set of Miquon books for under $50, go to the
following web page:
http://www.FUN-Books.com/mathematics.htm#Miquon
Sorry to get so long winded!
Billy
www.FUN-Books.com
Our favorite math program for younger kids is Miquon math. I should warn you
that I am an independent bookseller and Miquon is one of the products we
carry so I may seem biased, but the reason we carry the Miquon is because we
like it. We could make more money selling Saxon or Math-U-See, but when it
comes to pre-highschool math, we just don't like them as much and they are
more expensive so we don't carry them.
Here is something I previously wrote up in response to questions about why I
like Miquon:
A lot of people are surprised that in the very first Miquon book you get
into things like multiplication and division of fractions. Traditional math
programs don't get into this type of stuff until much later, but using the
rods makes it seem like common sense.
The "Labsheet Annotations" is important to have. Using the Labsheet
Annotations not only gives you explanations of answers and other activities,
but it also has a chart that explains the code letters and numbers on the
work book pages. These codes enable you to use the system in very different
ways. You can take a standard approach and just go page by page through the
books. If your child suddenly develops a fascination with fractions, you may
decide that you want to pursue that. The codes will tell you how to skip
through the books so you can find just the sections on fractions, going from
the introductory concepts to more advanced concepts. This means you can
either go through the books page by page to focus on the level of the
materials, or you can decide to focus on concepts (adding, length, area,
volume, factoring, squaring etc)
There are several things I like about the program. One of the first things
is the idea of using colors for the different levels instead of ranking them
by grade or age. This frustrates some people because they want to know what
grade level their child is at, but I think ability is more important than
age and kids should work at their own level and not have to endure negative
pressure because the book says its for kids younger than them. If grandma
asks what level math youre doing and the response is I finished orange and
am just starting red, theres no judgmental information there. Colors are
neutral unlike grade levels or numbers. (By the way, I think there can be
just as much negative pressure if everyone is complimenting the child for
being ahead of their grade level).
Another thing I like is the variety of approaches used. There is good use of
manipulatives and the presentation of problems in a variety of ways. There
are also different strategies given for solving problems. For example, one
section on the addition of a string of numbers shows 8+1+2+9+3= ? The
solution is not to just get the totals, but to do it by drawing lines to
connect the numbers that add to 10 and then adding them (8+2, 1+9, 3+7).
Kids too often memorize multiplication tables and learn how to get correct
answers but dont really understand what they are doing. Math is usually
taught as if there is only one right answer and only one right way to get
it. But that is not true. At a recent support group meeting, most people
said that 3x9=27, and they just knew it from memorizing the multiplication
tables. I was one of two people that said they rounded the 9 up to 10 and
thought of the problem as (3 x 10)- (3x(10-9) or 30-3. This may seem more
convoluted, but it actually can help build important estimation skills and
make it easier to do quick calculations in your head. If your mind works
that way, you should be encouraged to approach math that way instead of by
rote memorization of multiplication tables.
I also like that the program is fairly inexpensive. If you find it doesnt
work for your child, you dont feel the urge to force them to use it to get
your moneys worth. If it works very well and your child wants to move more
rapidly, you dont have to feel like holding them back because the next book
is so expensive. Although the program is designed for grades 1 through 3,
many people use it for 1 through 6 as you are basically at a pre-algebra
level when you complete the program.
Bottom line is that I think most programs teach you to do math, while this
one puts more emphasis on understanding it on several levels. You see
different strategies for solving problems, you do hands on activities that
are fun, and you apply what you learn to different situations. Rote
memorization may be good for tests where there is a time limit and you have
to answer quickly, but understanding concepts will help you solve more
problems in the long run (especially later in life after you forget all
those equations that you so diligently memorized for a test).
If you made it this far and are interested in more information or a place
where you can get the entire set of Miquon books for under $50, go to the
following web page:
http://www.FUN-Books.com/mathematics.htm#Miquon
Sorry to get so long winded!
Billy
www.FUN-Books.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Olivia [mailto:liv2learn@...]
>
> I know it is not very unschooling-like to ask about this but...
> My 7 yo has gotten to a point where he has expressed a need for some
> help learning basic math (for scorekeeping in games and managing
> money, etc.). He has little confidence in this area. I am not sure
> how to proceed to help him without turning him off to math concepts,
> as has happened in the past. He doesn't like doing math on paper and
> has a hard time calculating in his head because he says he can't
> remember math facts. I thought he might like some program (Math-U-
> See?) that uses blocks because he is very hands-on and enjoys
> building with Legos. So, what do you do if a child asks for help in a
> specific subject? I don't think it is anti-unschooling to provide
> help through a special program as long as it has been requested. Any
> suggestions for math?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Olivia
>
Tracy Oldfield
Good ol' Monopoly springs to mind! And my obsession on correct
spelling I'm sure derives in part from my brother's obsession with
playing Scrabble...
*grin*
Tracy
spelling I'm sure derives in part from my brother's obsession with
playing Scrabble...
*grin*
Tracy
On 6 Aug 2000, at 22:52, Corallyn wrote:
I don't know about you, but I encourage my children to
learn math and reading by providing games that teach
these concepts.
[email protected]
Hi,
I'm wondering how many of you actually unschool for math? Is there
ever a point in one's life where one *must* learn her addition facts,
or her multiplication tables?
I'm not a true unschooler--I'm more of a relaxed homeschooler.
However, I totally unschooled my daughter for math last year, because
she had become so frustrated with math and was going nowhere. I just
decided to give her a year off. In that year she did make some
improvement on her own. She learned how to do double digit addition
with carrying and double digit subtraction with borrowing because she
wanted to buy stuff from her American Girl catalog and adjusted how
much money she had, how much she still needed. Even though she can
do the double digit addition, she sometims forgets what 6 + 5 is. She
is now 8 and we started back with a math curriculum and she's
struggling again. She is having trouble with place value--if you
give her a number of 39, she can't put 3 10 blocks in the 10 place
and 9 one blocks in the ones place. If I go back to unschooling her,
will she ever get this?
Any and all thoughts are much appreciated.
Sheila
I'm wondering how many of you actually unschool for math? Is there
ever a point in one's life where one *must* learn her addition facts,
or her multiplication tables?
I'm not a true unschooler--I'm more of a relaxed homeschooler.
However, I totally unschooled my daughter for math last year, because
she had become so frustrated with math and was going nowhere. I just
decided to give her a year off. In that year she did make some
improvement on her own. She learned how to do double digit addition
with carrying and double digit subtraction with borrowing because she
wanted to buy stuff from her American Girl catalog and adjusted how
much money she had, how much she still needed. Even though she can
do the double digit addition, she sometims forgets what 6 + 5 is. She
is now 8 and we started back with a math curriculum and she's
struggling again. She is having trouble with place value--if you
give her a number of 39, she can't put 3 10 blocks in the 10 place
and 9 one blocks in the ones place. If I go back to unschooling her,
will she ever get this?
Any and all thoughts are much appreciated.
Sheila
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/01 12:28:04 PM, sheran@... writes:
<< I'm wondering how many of you actually unschool for math? >>
We do.
<<Is there
ever a point in one's life where one *must* learn her addition facts,
or her multiplication tables? >>
is there ever a life in which someone who is actually using math daily when
they could avoid learning those things?
(And as to "learning multiplication tables" most people haven't really
thought a lot about what that means, and many of those of us who "learned"
them have tricks for remembering which we figured out on our own, or just
plain don't remember 7x8 or whatever was hard.)
<<She
is now 8 and we started back with a math curriculum and she's
struggling again. She is having trouble with place value--if you
give her a number of 39, she can't put 3 10 blocks in the 10 place
and 9 one blocks in the ones place.>>
She's young.
And it is not a life skill to put three ten blocks anywhere. Using
school-designed math manipulatives can be fun IF the child thinks it's fun,
if they're treated as a toy, as a game, but the "need" to use them as the
"math experts" intended them to be used is an artificial need.
<<If I go back to unschooling her,
will she ever get this? >>
"Giving someone a year off" from a curriuculum you went back to wasn't the
same as unschooling.
If you want her to learn math, she needs toys, money, games that need
scorekeeping, hobbies that need measuring. Music and dance involve math (and
it doesn't have to look like numbers and equations to be math). Lots of
kinds of puzzles and logic problems involve math. And they don't need to be
chosen for just that purpose, although if it makes you the mom feel better to
play Yahtzee and rummy with her DO IT! And probably the effect on you will
be as great as the effect on her. When you see her learning naturally (if
you leave it alone and let it happen, because natural learning cannot happen
in the lap of All Teaching All The Time) you'll learn more about how natural
learning works.
If during your daughter's year off you just left her alone about math, I
wouldn't say that was necessarily "unschooled." For one thing, if anything
is "taught" then the whole world isn't left as a fully-open learning
opportunity. So I personally believe that if you taught reading but
"unschooled" math you didn't really unschool. Others aren't as radical about
that.
Halfway between totally leaving someone alone and teaching them is the "just
right" balance that is unschooling. If you want someone to have the
opportunity to learn to cook without teaching them to cook, they're going to
need to have ingredients, tools, cook books, freedom to screw up, and a mom
willing to cook where they see her cook, and a mom to clean up a lot, and a
mom willing to answer their questions and point out cooking shows on TV, and
interesting specialty pans at the thrift store, and new recipes at
restaurants, and...
A child without a kitchen can't possibly discover cooking.
A child not allowed to "waste sugar" or turn on the oven can't discover
baking.
There are some similarities with math and everything else.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< I'm wondering how many of you actually unschool for math? >>
We do.
<<Is there
ever a point in one's life where one *must* learn her addition facts,
or her multiplication tables? >>
is there ever a life in which someone who is actually using math daily when
they could avoid learning those things?
(And as to "learning multiplication tables" most people haven't really
thought a lot about what that means, and many of those of us who "learned"
them have tricks for remembering which we figured out on our own, or just
plain don't remember 7x8 or whatever was hard.)
<<She
is now 8 and we started back with a math curriculum and she's
struggling again. She is having trouble with place value--if you
give her a number of 39, she can't put 3 10 blocks in the 10 place
and 9 one blocks in the ones place.>>
She's young.
And it is not a life skill to put three ten blocks anywhere. Using
school-designed math manipulatives can be fun IF the child thinks it's fun,
if they're treated as a toy, as a game, but the "need" to use them as the
"math experts" intended them to be used is an artificial need.
<<If I go back to unschooling her,
will she ever get this? >>
"Giving someone a year off" from a curriuculum you went back to wasn't the
same as unschooling.
If you want her to learn math, she needs toys, money, games that need
scorekeeping, hobbies that need measuring. Music and dance involve math (and
it doesn't have to look like numbers and equations to be math). Lots of
kinds of puzzles and logic problems involve math. And they don't need to be
chosen for just that purpose, although if it makes you the mom feel better to
play Yahtzee and rummy with her DO IT! And probably the effect on you will
be as great as the effect on her. When you see her learning naturally (if
you leave it alone and let it happen, because natural learning cannot happen
in the lap of All Teaching All The Time) you'll learn more about how natural
learning works.
If during your daughter's year off you just left her alone about math, I
wouldn't say that was necessarily "unschooled." For one thing, if anything
is "taught" then the whole world isn't left as a fully-open learning
opportunity. So I personally believe that if you taught reading but
"unschooled" math you didn't really unschool. Others aren't as radical about
that.
Halfway between totally leaving someone alone and teaching them is the "just
right" balance that is unschooling. If you want someone to have the
opportunity to learn to cook without teaching them to cook, they're going to
need to have ingredients, tools, cook books, freedom to screw up, and a mom
willing to cook where they see her cook, and a mom to clean up a lot, and a
mom willing to answer their questions and point out cooking shows on TV, and
interesting specialty pans at the thrift store, and new recipes at
restaurants, and...
A child without a kitchen can't possibly discover cooking.
A child not allowed to "waste sugar" or turn on the oven can't discover
baking.
There are some similarities with math and everything else.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/15/2001 2:28:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sheran@...
writes:
Because -- as my 6 yo daughter explained to me a few days ago -- it is nice
that you get a prize on the computer game and then get to play the arcade
games when you get enough math problems right, but the REALLY fun part is
learning!
Math (not necessarily arithmetic just for its own sake) is actually a fun
thing!
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> Hi,Yes. When you need them or when you are interested.
> I'm wondering how many of you actually unschool for math? Is there
> ever a point in one's life where one *must* learn her addition facts,
> or her multiplication tables?
>
Because -- as my 6 yo daughter explained to me a few days ago -- it is nice
that you get a prize on the computer game and then get to play the arcade
games when you get enough math problems right, but the REALLY fun part is
learning!
Math (not necessarily arithmetic just for its own sake) is actually a fun
thing!
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
----------
I don't think humans ever fail to learn addition facts (your daughter is
probably well aware that if you have a pile of this and put more in, it is
now more, and can probably or will probably be able to count them to find
out how many, i.e, add them) -- whether they need in their particular lives
to memorize this-plus-that-equals-such is a matter for them to decide.
Multiplication tables are not like knowing to come in out of a lightning
storm -- they aren't "necessary" for every human to memorize. Many people
find them helpful, and an unschooled child may memorize them because she
does. Some people don't find them helpful at all, and lead fine upstanding
productive lives not knowing them.
So, no, there is no "must". She will learn what she needs and wants to know
when and if she needs or wants to know it. If there is a "must" it's a must
for her and she'll be the first to be clamoring for help if she needs it.
That's unschooling. Nobody "unschools math" -- they just unschool or they
don't, and those things that could be placed under the category of "math"
are of no more or less importance than those things that could be placed
under the category of "purple".
We unschool purple, too. ;)
Pam, always humbly opinionated
>From: [email protected]Depends on the life.
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1476
>Date: Sat, Sep 15, 2001, 12:28 PM
>
> I'm wondering how many of you actually unschool for math? Is there
> ever a point in one's life where one *must* learn her addition facts,
> or her multiplication tables?
I don't think humans ever fail to learn addition facts (your daughter is
probably well aware that if you have a pile of this and put more in, it is
now more, and can probably or will probably be able to count them to find
out how many, i.e, add them) -- whether they need in their particular lives
to memorize this-plus-that-equals-such is a matter for them to decide.
Multiplication tables are not like knowing to come in out of a lightning
storm -- they aren't "necessary" for every human to memorize. Many people
find them helpful, and an unschooled child may memorize them because she
does. Some people don't find them helpful at all, and lead fine upstanding
productive lives not knowing them.
So, no, there is no "must". She will learn what she needs and wants to know
when and if she needs or wants to know it. If there is a "must" it's a must
for her and she'll be the first to be clamoring for help if she needs it.
That's unschooling. Nobody "unschools math" -- they just unschool or they
don't, and those things that could be placed under the category of "math"
are of no more or less importance than those things that could be placed
under the category of "purple".
We unschool purple, too. ;)
Pam, always humbly opinionated
[email protected]
Hi Sheila,
She really will "get" it. Schools really push "mastering " certain
skills and sometimes it's hard to get past that. Maybe it would help to
ask yourself how important is it in her real life to know what 6+5 is?
How often does it come up in the natural course of a day ? Does she
really have a NEED, right now, in her life to know this?
You believing she should know it already is not the same as a need to
know. When it's important to her, she will learn it.
My son used to watch us play cribbage and wanted to join. He would play
with his dad, dad at first adding up for him then gradually he was adding
on his own. He can tally his score in yahtzee now faster than any of us!
Try not to worry!
Deb L
She really will "get" it. Schools really push "mastering " certain
skills and sometimes it's hard to get past that. Maybe it would help to
ask yourself how important is it in her real life to know what 6+5 is?
How often does it come up in the natural course of a day ? Does she
really have a NEED, right now, in her life to know this?
You believing she should know it already is not the same as a need to
know. When it's important to her, she will learn it.
My son used to watch us play cribbage and wanted to join. He would play
with his dad, dad at first adding up for him then gradually he was adding
on his own. He can tally his score in yahtzee now faster than any of us!
Try not to worry!
Deb L
Tia Leschke
>If she *wants* to learn place value, money works really well....three dimes
><<She
>is now 8 and we started back with a math curriculum and she's
>struggling again. She is having trouble with place value--if you
>give her a number of 39, she can't put 3 10 blocks in the 10 place
>and 9 one blocks in the ones place.>>
>
>She's young.
>
>And it is not a life skill to put three ten blocks anywhere. Using
>school-designed math manipulatives can be fun IF the child thinks it's fun,
>if they're treated as a toy, as a game, but the "need" to use them as the
>"math experts" intended them to be used is an artificial need.
and nine pennies makes a lot more sense to most kids than 3 10 blocks in
the 10 place
and 9 one blocks in the ones place.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Samantha Stopple
>Dd picked up a Math Workbook at the thrift store. Her
> And it is not a life skill to put three ten blocks
> anywhere. Using
> school-designed math manipulatives can be fun IF the
> child thinks it's fun,
> if they're treated as a toy, as a game, but the
> "need" to use them as the
> "math experts" intended them to be used is an
> artificial need.
choice. The book is so much about explainingg things
that don't need to be explained IMO i.e. tens place
etc. Yet to do the pages it seemed to me to need to be
explained. So how could I have shifted to helped her
with the work book in a more unschooling fashion. She
is also into playing with the 'school work' idea. She
needs me to also read the instructions.
The only idea I could come up with is to do the
worksheet myself and just talk about what I am doing
whiles she observes or takes part when she can.
Samantha
__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
[email protected]
Wow! I really need to hear those replies. Thank you so much! You
guys are great.
Sheila
guys are great.
Sheila
LisaBugg
----- Original Message -----
From: <sheran@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 11:02 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math
> Hi,
> I'm wondering how many of you actually unschool for math? Is there
> ever a point in one's life where one *must* learn her addition facts,
> or her multiplication tables?
In a word? No, there isn't any single point in time where quoting 'addition
facts' becomes a life and death issue.
In another word? Yes, there comes a point where understanding the definition
of "addition"/"adding.
Which facts are you speaking of? The fact that 344908452934032 +1 =
344908452934033??
Or the fact the fact that *addition is the concept of combing two or more
units to find a sum? And that understanding this *addition fact* (ie the
definition) comes at the time that each individual is ready to comphrend the
idea.
Most children come to understand the concept of one cookie plus one cookie
equals two cookies rather early. Way before they are even capable of
explaining with other words that they understand.
Repeating math additions facts by rote at an early age is a parlor trick.
Learning them over time because you use them happens to 99.57% of us by
default.
>
> I'm not a true unschooler--I'm more of a relaxed homeschooler.
> However, I totally unschooled my daughter for math last year, because
> she had become so frustrated with math and was going nowhere. I just
> decided to give her a year off.
Giving her a year off of school math was a wonderful thing to do. It,
however, is not unschooling. There was an expecation of returning to school
math that sort of gets in the way.
In that year she did make some
> improvement on her own. She learned how to do double digit addition
> with carrying and double digit subtraction with borrowing because she
> wanted to buy stuff from her American Girl catalog and adjusted how
> much money she had, how much she still needed. Even though she can
> do the double digit addition, she sometims forgets what 6 + 5 is. She
> is now 8 and we started back with a math curriculum and she's
> struggling again.
This speaks volumes to me, but I'd be interested in knowing your thougths on
why she's reacting to textbook math by struggling?
She is having trouble with place value--if you
> give her a number of 39, she can't put 3 10 blocks in the 10 place
> and 9 one blocks in the ones place. If I go back to unschooling her,
> will she ever get this?
>
Inherent in this question is an absolute boatload of foundational issues
that I'm not sure we can ferret out together. Can you see her being 40 and
still unable to understand place value? It matters not whether you unschool
her or continue to make her struggle with a math text, one day this concept
of place value will be an aha moment. She's gonna get this one way or the
other, simply because the world she lives in runs on money and taxes and
mortage payments.
The question is, rather, is the struggling necessary? Is knowing place
value to the hundred thousands something an 8 year old should know or should
be made to struggle to learn.
I, of course, as a long term unschooler will say no. It's not necessary to
waste a part of her life struggling to get this concept at 8 years old.
Life will bring too many of it's opportunities for this to be learned. I do
not find value in forcing my children to learn any one fact just because
someone put it in a book and called it an age appropriate activity.
Now, if this same 8 year old was begging for her own bank account or wanting
to run her own business or any other aspect of living where she NEEDED to
understand this, then yes, it might be worth sitting with her while she
struggles to grasp the concept. But then if it's needed, she'll be driving
the train and will be willing to struggle. Yes?
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/17/2001 2:09:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LisaBugg@... writes:
Homemade stats anyone?? :)
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
LisaBugg@... writes:
> Repeating math additions facts by rote at an early age is a parlor trick.I love it!
> Learning them over time because you use them happens to 99.57% of us by
> default.
>
Homemade stats anyone?? :)
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Lisa:
Sorry I chopped up your e-mail so much, I didn't want to have tons
underneath this. I am very interested in this whole unschooling
process and understanding more about it. The other day I was
measuring the garden and Zak wanted to help. We wrote on the wall in
columns the numbers of feet we needeed to add together (tape measure
wasn't long enough).. He was very fascinated by the columns with
carrying the "1" idea. When Son #2 took his nap later I asked Zak if
he'd like to solve some more of those puzzles. He was very happy and
said "yes please". So I wrote down about 20 sums on a paper and sat
with him and helped him understand how to carry the one, so to
speak. After about half an hour he'd had anough of that. Is this
considered unschooling? If he'd said no he didn't want to do it I
wouldn't have pushed it. I also have some of those books I keep
picking up in Target for reading, phonics, spelling and math at
different grade levels. I offer them to him and he thinks of them as
puzzle books. If he wants to use them he does but if he says no I
don't say anything. Am I going in the "right" direction here to be
considered an unschooler?
Dawn
Sorry I chopped up your e-mail so much, I didn't want to have tons
underneath this. I am very interested in this whole unschooling
process and understanding more about it. The other day I was
measuring the garden and Zak wanted to help. We wrote on the wall in
columns the numbers of feet we needeed to add together (tape measure
wasn't long enough).. He was very fascinated by the columns with
carrying the "1" idea. When Son #2 took his nap later I asked Zak if
he'd like to solve some more of those puzzles. He was very happy and
said "yes please". So I wrote down about 20 sums on a paper and sat
with him and helped him understand how to carry the one, so to
speak. After about half an hour he'd had anough of that. Is this
considered unschooling? If he'd said no he didn't want to do it I
wouldn't have pushed it. I also have some of those books I keep
picking up in Target for reading, phonics, spelling and math at
different grade levels. I offer them to him and he thinks of them as
puzzle books. If he wants to use them he does but if he says no I
don't say anything. Am I going in the "right" direction here to be
considered an unschooler?
Dawn
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "LisaBugg" <LisaBugg@u...> wrote:
> idea.
>
> Most children come to understand the concept of one cookie plus one
cookie
> equals two cookies rather early. Way before they are even capable
of
> explaining with other words that they understand.
>
>
> Repeating math additions facts by rote at an early age is a parlor
trick.
> Learning them over time because you use them happens to 99.57% of
us by
> default.
>
I'd be interested in knowing your thougths on
> why she's reacting to textbook math by struggling?
>
> I, of course, as a long term unschooler will say no. It's not
necessary to
> waste a part of her life struggling to get this concept at 8 years
old.
> Life will bring too many of it's opportunities for this to be
learned. I do
> not find value in forcing my children to learn any one fact just
because
> someone put it in a book and called it an age appropriate activity.
>
> Now, if this same 8 year old was begging for her own bank account
or wanting
> to run her own business or any other aspect of living where she
NEEDED to
> understand this, then yes, it might be worth sitting with her while
she
> struggles to grasp the concept. But then if it's needed, she'll be
driving
> the train and will be willing to struggle. Yes?
Tia Leschke
>He was very fascinated by the columns withI think you're right on track. I believe now that one of the mistakes I
>carrying the "1" idea. When Son #2 took his nap later I asked Zak if
>he'd like to solve some more of those puzzles. He was very happy and
>said "yes please". So I wrote down about 20 sums on a paper and sat
>with him and helped him understand how to carry the one, so to
>speak. After about half an hour he'd had anough of that. Is this
>considered unschooling? If he'd said no he didn't want to do it I
>wouldn't have pushed it. I also have some of those books I keep
>picking up in Target for reading, phonics, spelling and math at
>different grade levels. I offer them to him and he thinks of them as
>puzzle books. If he wants to use them he does but if he says no I
>don't say anything. Am I going in the "right" direction here to be
>considered an unschooler?
made as an unschooler was not offering activities enough. I hoped that
just leaving interesting stuff lying around would be enough. For him, it
wasn't. If the activities are merely offered, he knows he can say no, and
you stop when his body language says "enough", I'd say you're unschooling.
I do think you can go too far with the offering, so the child begins to
realize how important something is to you. Many children would go along
with you at that point, even if they weren't interested. We do have to be
sensitive to their body language. And it can be hard to tell. A woman on
another list could tell that her daughter didn't really want to take piano
lessons anymore, but every time she asked her she wanted to quit, the
daughter would say no. Years later the daughter insisted that she had kept
on with it because, "she knew how much her mother wanted her to", even
though the mother truly didn't care one way or the other.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Johanna SanInocencio
What made me memorise them was a waitress job where I had to pay the
difference if I added a check wrong. Amazing what an incentive that was!
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
difference if I added a check wrong. Amazing what an incentive that was!
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: <marbleface@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:45 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Math
> In a message dated 9/17/2001 2:09:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> LisaBugg@... writes:
>
>
> > Repeating math additions facts by rote at an early age is a parlor
trick.
> > Learning them over time because you use them happens to 99.57% of us by
> > default.
> >
>
>
>
> I love it!
>
> Homemade stats anyone?? :)
>
> Nance
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
Fetteroll
on 9/15/01 6:19 PM, sheran@... wrote:
Or put you to sleep depending on your patience for long windedness ;-)
**\blue{Do you consider doing math from a book "out of context"?}**
Yes, if it's pushed on a child. No, if the child chooses it.
Which is too simplistic, of course, because it's based on certain
assumptions.
**\blue{I have a degree in computer engineering from MIT and there are
definitely prereqs. in math that I think my son would need for most math,
science, engineering, or computer majors.}**
Okay, here comes the math spiel. ;-) I have a degree in Electrical
Engineering from Carnegie Mellon University. I certainly agreed with your
assumptions about math when I first started reading about unschooling. I,
too, was a victim of contextless, rote-learned math. It really seemed the
only way. There were specific ways to do addition, multiplication,
division, and on up the math scale that just had to be explained step by
step and sat down and practiced ad nauseum. And what child was going to put
in all those necessary hours on her own?
It took me several years of reading what other unschoolers had to say but it
really wasn't until I saw my daughter actually manipulating numbers without
being specifically shown how that I understood how unschooling could work
with math.
The problem with school math, and as far as I've seen all math curriculums,
is they start kids off immediately with the abstract. A child may be able
to see they have one brother and one sister and therefore have two siblings,
or one gray cat and one yellow cat to make two cats, but put 1+1 on paper it
becomes incredibly abstract. Why would anyone want to add 73+48? The
process is meaningless. The answer is meaningless. It has no context.
Many math programs do have kids adding sorting bears or manipulating rods or
any number of other hands-on things, but they're still basically
meaningless. The teacher has created the problem and dumped it on the
child. Why does anyone want to know how many blue bears there are? Why are
the red and blue bears being added together?
Now, on the other hand, my daughter is quite intrigued to find out how many
Jurassic dinos she has versus Triassic. How many plant eaters versus meat
eaters. (And whatever other classifications she can come up with, limited
only by her imagination -- versus the 2 or 3 categories of the sorting
bears.) How many years separated the various ages of the dinos. The heights
and weights of them.
And though counting and graphing M&M's by number and color seems the same as
doing these same things with the counting bears, it's not. She's gaining
information in the form of patterns and relationships (that are often
expressed as numbers) about her own world, things *she* cares about.
Obviously there's only so far counting will get you in life ;-) but we
manipulate all sorts of numbers in her life and I make sure she's immersed
in patterns and relationships between various things in her life for her to
examine (or not). Like fractions in cooking and time: "Since the cup is
dirty, how can I make 1 1/2 cups?" "The recipe calls for 1 Tablespoon but
we're cutting it in half. And a Tablespoon is 3 teaspoons. So what would
that be?" "It's an hour and a half or 3 Bill Nyes until Daddy comes home."
"It's 20 minutes or a third of an hour until Xena comes on." Though
learning to take 1/3 of 60 is more universally applicable, she can *feel*
the 20 minutes wait out of 60 minutes and she can get the feel that
fractions are ways of relating one thing to another. Decimals come up with
money. Percentages come up with sales, tax, food labels, possibility of
winning a contest, shrinking an image in a paint program.
She's gaining a feel for the contexts the various concepts are used in, she
sees me manipulating them and helping her manipulate them. And in the
course she's adding pieces to the puzzle of her world, making new patterns
and relationships clearer.
Up until recently we've done zero in the way of formal math. Only a few
months ago she wasn't totally consistent on her addition but I asked her if
she knew what 8x5 was. She said that was 16 +16 + 8. *Not* 8+8+8+8+8,
which would have been a good answer showing she understood the concept of
multiplication, but she manipulated the numbers properly into something she
could feel more intuitively.
Recently she has been doing paper and pencil math under protest. Sort of.
She wants to earn money for Pokemon cards. I buy the packs at any where
from $4-$6 a piece, pull out the trainer cards and then calculate how much
she needs to pay for each Pokemon card. (Or have her do it for a whole
card, though that's still a bit beyond her true understanding even if she
does get the answer right.) I suggested all sorts of household tasks for
her to earn 25 cents or a dollar or whatever which were met with groans.
(She even turned down *$2* to clean out the floor of my car! ;-) I
suggested she do pages in the Miquon math workbooks that have been gathering
dust on the shelf at 10 cents per page. Being a low energy child (like her
mother ;-) she usually opts for the math.
She's getting *much* better at the pages, but I can still see a huge
difference between what she does on paper versus what she does with the real
meaningful numbers in her life. She quickly calculates in her head how much
she's earned and how much she needs and how much she'll have left over after
buying a card, tells me how many 36 cent cards she can get with her $2
allowance versus how many 41 cent ones. (And she does this without drills
and without pages of workbook practice, just from messing around with the
numbers in her life in a very low key way -- the stuff she's doing in the
workbooks is actually much simpler.) She told me the way she figured out
16+16 was it was just 10+10 then 6+6 which is 12 which is 10+2, so that was
10+10+10+2 or 32. She's discovering for herself how to break numbers apart
and play around with them. And she *knows* why someone would want to do
that. If it were taught in a book, it would take weeks and most kids would
still be baffled about what the purpose of it was.
Pencil and paper math and head math *are* different. The pencil and paper
math are a new language she's learning. And yet, I'm quite confident if we
had gone on without much pencil and paper stuff (other than the normal
things that come up in life) she would have caught onto it *way* quicker in
a couple of years without the agony she was putting herself through.
But that's obviously a far way from algebra and trig and calc.
Someone pointed out that algebra is just figuring out what you don't know
from what you do know. Now how did I get all the way through engineering
school without realizing that insight? Maybe because I enjoyed identifying
the problem types and figuring out which methodology to apply to them. It
didn't make any difference whether I truly understood why I was doing what I
was doing. The fun was it worked. Because that's how algebra is taught.
It's all about practicing manipulating different types of equations. It's
not about what those equations mean. Or why anyone would want to write a
quadratic equation let alone solve it. It's all just preparation for
potential contexts. But the equations themselves have no context. They're
meaningless. (Unless you're one of the "good" ones who rise to the surface
through this bizarre math-teaching process just because you happen to like
to manipulate equations for the sake of manipulating equations.)
Quadratic equations don't come up in real life often, but I can help my
daughter to think algebraically when we tackle real life problems. (I may
be doing it already unconsciously, but you'll have to wait a few years for
me to be conscious enough of it to provide real life examples of her using
it. ;-)
Of course that isn't enough to get her into CMU. Or into MIT either ;-)
Now, given the choice, I'm quite certain I wouldn't have gotten in enough
math on my own to get into CMU. So what makes me certain my daughter will?
Well, I'm *not* certain, but what leads me to believe that my daughter's
outlook will be different is, for one thing, I was the victim of force-fed
learning. I needed to be force fed math because I'd always been force fed
learning. I needed to be force fed school math because it had no
relationship to my own world. I didn't *need* it. I can't imagine learning
what I learned on my own because the only thing I have to base my imaginings
on are the process I went through.
What I *can* imagine, though, is being so intrigued by something that the
math gets learned because it makes what I'm interested in make sense. I
*can* imagine forcing myself to learn something in order to achieve
something else. (HTML comes to mind ;-) Though that was more a combination
of both of them.)
What my daughter has going for her is a different experience with math.
Other than the workbook pages :-P, she's used to seeing math as a tool.
She's used to using math because she wants the information it can give her.
So when she gets to high school, she won't have the memory of 8 previous
years of drudgework associated with math.
She'll also have a better foundation of understanding what she's doing.
Though she might be behind her PS counterparts in calculation speed, she'll
be ahead in understanding what the processes mean. (But the speed will
depend on her. If she feels working around gaps in her multiplication
tables is more annoying than learning the tables -- and if she knows that
drilling them or doing other things will help her (and it's my job to help
her learn to identify when a problem exists and to seek out solutions) --
then she'll learn them. If not, she won't. (*I* still have gaps in my
tables.)
So she'll hit her high school years with a different attitude towards math
and learning math. (And this really applies to *all* subjects.)
But will she be able to pick up all the math she needs to get into college
just by living? Well, yes and no.
This is where it gets hard to explain because our thinking is based on
oodles more assumptions.
It's so easy to project a schooled teen (which includes most of us) as a
normal teen and assume all kids given the chance will watch TV and eat
concoctions centering on sugar, fat and salt all day and want nothing more
in life than 256 channels and a clicker in the hand ;-) That behavior is
caused by the stress of school (and a lot of other factors. I have another
rant about being forced to spend 12 years working towards a vague goal that
someone else has chosen for you. ;-) But in an environment where the adults
and everyone else in the family are curious about life, where everyone's
interests are taken seriously (even the so-called non-educational ones), the
kids are actively curious too. There's no reason for them to want to shut
their brains down as a life's goal. (Which doesn't mean my daughter doesn't
watch TV. At times she even watches a lot of TV. But she chooses it for
other reason than shutting off the world. (Though that's a legitimate use
too. It's just that she doesn't have to spend a goodly portion of her free
time recovering from 6 hours of force fed learning in a high-stress
environment everyday.)
Had unschooling been thrust upon me as a teen, I imagine I would have spent
as much time as possible doing nothing. It's hard to imagine a teen
learning on their own something that we ourselves would avoid. It seems
obvious that given the choice most teens would avoid Shakespeare or American
History or Algebra or whatever school made us hate because we know *we'd*
avoid it. But, given a choice, would we have avoided it because it's
inherently dull or because school made it dull? It isn't fair to assume the
behavior of a schooled teen is normal behavior. The only experience
schooled kids have had with most subjects is dull textbooks. The life has
been sucked out of all subjects for them. Why *would* they pursue them on
their own? Especially if they assume the only way to learn them in a
worthwhile way is the way schools teach them?
There's no reason for my daughter to avoid learning because she's never been
forced to do it. To her learning is something you do to find out more about
what you're interested in and to become better at it. It's not something
someone makes you do because they tell you you need it.
She *will* avoid learning in ways that aren't natural for her or don't suit
her needs. Some kids like workbooks. That doesn't make them better
learners than those kids who don't. It just means they learn differently.
She *will* avoid learning anything that isn't relevant to what she wants to
do or is interested in. Which makes parents nervous for two reasons:
1) What if she never gets interested? It's possible she won't on her own.
But it's my job/pleasure to run as much of the world in front of her as
possible. The broader her experiences, the more likely something will
connect to something else in her life and be relevant. (Though I can't
depend on when.) Everything is connected to everything else. And everything
relevant is inherently interesting.
*But* it's also possible she won't get interested in something "important".
Math? Writing? Chemistry? If she has absolutely no interest in it, then
it's unlikely she'll be drawn to a profession that needs it to an extent
greater than she can pick up by living. Though she won't leave the house
without being able to figure out sales tax or write a letter to a friend or
know that baking powder is important in cookies because she'll have used
those. She'll have enough to get by. But it's possible she'll need higher
math than she has. Or better writing skills. Or an entire chemistry
course. Well, if it's just chemistry standing in her way, wouldn't it make
sense for her to go down to the community college and take it rather than
deciding on a different career just because of one course? And if that's
too much trouble, how much did she want that career anyway?
But math and writing? Well, I hope something I'm saying here helps you see
why I believe there's a middle ground between "no math" and 4 years of high
school math from textbooks. And writing I talk about below.
2) And the second reason it makes parents nervous is supposedly there are
things kids need to learn that they won't need until college. And
supposedly it takes 12 years to learn them.
But does it? Does it take 12 years to learn math? Or does it take 12 years
for *schools* to force feed a child math (and writing and history, et al) by
the methods they need to use to force feed 30 kids at a time? Methods which
are also limited to ways that can result in outcomes that can be tested to
demonstrate progress. Also limited only to methods that must be progressive
along a specific track so the next year's teacher can pick up where the
previous teacher left off. Does *math* need taught that way? Or do schools
need to teach it that way to satisfy the needs of schools as assembly lines?
In a way, school math is rather like learning to spell thousands of words
and decline hundreds of verbs of a foreign language without hearing that
foreign language spoken. The rationale being that once all the parts are
learned, the whole can be built from that. But how many kids survive the
rote process? How many kids conclude not before long that the language is
useless because the parts have no meaning? My daughter is hearing the
language and using it, without formally declining the verbs and learning the
spellings. Even if she'd never been exposed to reading it (but already had
the decoding skills from reading English) how long would it take her to
learn to read that foreign language after having learned it from using it?
Once my daughter has a thorough understanding of what it means to do
division, she won't need umpty gajillion problems to practice. Once she has
a thorough understanding of problems with a range of potential solutions
(programming and robotics come right to mind), and has encountered and
understood powers and negative numbers she won't need years of practice to
grasp algebra.
My job is to make sure there are reasons in my daughter's environment to
need the skills and see them being used. (Just as I talked to her well
before she could talk.) Though she finds a lot of uses for the skills on
her own, given the freedom to do so. There's no reason for her to avoid
writing or reading or math (until the workbooks) on her own because she's
never been forced to do them. The hard part is waiting for *her* timescale.
I need to wait until these things are internally important to her. I can't
worry, well, she's 8 now and should be doing ... because natural learning
doesn't have anything to do with calendars and time schedules. It has to do
with needs.
If she has a goal in mind, she won't have anything except natural barriers
between her and it. She won't have what someone thinks she needs to get
there and someone else's *way* she needs to get it standing in her way. If
she decides to become a vet, she'll know what colleges require for her to
get there. *If* her desire is strong enough, she'll learn what she needs to
learn because she wants what the learning can get for her. (Desire is an
incredible motivator.) *And* most importantly she'll have better resources
to achieve it than sitting down with a textbook and slogging through it.
(Though that's an option too. Fortunately she won't have the history of
slogging through textbooks putting up a psychological barrier for her.)
She'll have a good foundation of *understanding* math concepts and will see
it and other math being used (and use it herself) as she explores what it
takes to be a vet: taking care of animals, working in a vet office or a
horse stable.
**\blue{So, if your kids aren't prepared enough to go to a university, then
you assume that they will be motivated to study once they get rejected?}**
The answer to this one is probably obvious from the above. No, I don't
expect rejection to spur her. I expect wanting to do something will spur
her to do something. And perhaps that something won't even be college. I
too had visions of my daughter going onto CMU or MIT. But now my vision has
shifted from preparing her to be anything she wants to be to helping her be
the best her she can be. Yet I'm not sitting around waiting to pounce on
her interests to nurture them. I'm also directing things through her world
that I think are important or I think will interest her. When (if ever) she
picks up on them is up to her. The more important I think something is, the
more likely I'll keep directing it in her path in a way that will interest
her, or connect it to something she is interested in.
**\blue{ We do provide a very stimulating environment. We have books and
materials everywhere. Lots of interesting folks float in and out of our
home and office. While my 9 yo son likes to read and mess around with the
computer, he wouldn't ever just open up a math book.}**
Nor would most kids. For a child to choose the more formal learning in a
book requires an interest and need that the book can fulfill. The
environment may be there, but he's not ready to ask the questions that the
books will answer for him. Or he may be discovering the answers on his own
through self-discovery or talking to people. Unfortunately for nervous
parents, you can't put unschooling on a time schedule. You can't set up the
environment and expect there to be a specific outcome at a specific time.
(Though I can just about guarantee that if the innate talent or desire is in
him for what the computers and people and books can provide, by the time
he's 14 he'll have sucked the environment for all it's worth ;-) 9 is way
too soon for most kids to be doing more than playing around with things and
exploring broadly. They may be delving deeply into some things, but the
cognitive development necessary to make them open a math book for
information just isn't there until the teen years. (Of course there're
always exceptions. But do the exceptions mean that the nonexceptions are
falling behind? Or are the nonexceptions just learning other perhaps less
obvious things? A HS'd friend of my daughter's has *at 8* read all the
Little House books and all their sequels and is well into other historical
novels. Am I jealous? Well, yeah, of course ;-) Yet my daughter is, less
obviously, picking up bits and pieces of world and American history. She's
gaining a broad overview of it all, expanding some bits here and there as
she finds out more about someone or something she's heard interesting things
about. Is one learner better than the other or are they just different?)
**\blue{My son also wouldn't write anything on paper, which I understand is
fairly typical for boys. Writing skills don't progress overnight.}**
Who says? Okay, not overnight, but does it take *years* of practice? Or
does it take years of *using* the skills in ways that are meaningful for the
learner?
**\blue{Are you saying that I should encourage, but not demand? I am still
missing something in terms of how this unschooling plays out.}**
How well would you learn Hindi if someone decided it would be important for
your future because they used Hindi in their lives and so made you practice
for the next 10 years? Wouldn't your goal be to learn as little as possible
to satisfy them? But if you were moving to India, then wouldn't learning
Hindi take *way* less time?
What your son needs is being immersed in an environment where it's important
to communicate his ideas. He also needs to see others using communication
in a meaningful way and to read and hear others communicating in various
ways. When *he* needs to communicate using the written word, he will.
In the meantime, you can make sure he has access to the skills. Listen to a
variety of things: conversation, books and books on tape, comic books,
movies (reading the scripts of favorites is really cool), plays, puppet
shows, poetry, folk tales, nonfiction, cereal boxes, TV Guide, political
talk shows, lyrics, ministers, magazine articles, Nintendo magazine, science
shows, letters to the editor. *Anything* as long as he's interested. He
needs to hear good (and bad) literature so his ear can learn the rhythms of
language. I've pointed out to my daughter why it's tough for me to read the
Magic Tree House books outloud to her and she can now pick up on parts that
sound awkward. (It wasn't a lesson, just an outgrowth of a natural
discussion. Which is probably the heart of unschooling: just talking
naturally about things that happen along. Despite the fact that I'm not a
great talker, some amazing things have come up in conversation.) It has
probably inadvertently sowed the seed of her being more conscious of there
being a range of how well written things are. She would have learned that
anyway though perhaps unconsciously.
(That "happen along" part of unschooling is misleading. It's not that I'm
leaving things to chance, nor am I deliberately bringing something in as a
lesson. I direct a lot of things her way and just from experience know that
from the wealth of things, there will be unexpected learning. Nothing I can
plan though. She learned more than anyone would imagine from a few weeks
watching Gilligan's Island. ;-)
Writing is just talking on paper. You're trying to see where someone
mentally is relative to where you intend your words to take them and then
you plan out a course to get them there. Talk to your son. Ask him to
explain what he's doing and ask questions to help him learn to order his
thoughts and learn to see from the point of view of who he's communicating
with rather than from his own position. (But only ask if you're interested.
Kids have good radar for lessons masked as conversation ;-)
Unless someone has gotten the idea that writing is hard by being forced to
write before they are ready or need to, or being forced to write in ways
that aren't natural to them, once they realize it's just talking on paper,
that little extra step is hardly any step at all. There's additional skills
they can learn, like how to organize their thoughts for something longer,
but it's not a skill that needs 12 years of practice. (A schooled friend of
my daughter's came over to play with my daughter and they decided to make
books together. The schooled girl told her there were all these things you
had to do: title page, a plan, and some other things. My daughter said
"Oh," and just made books. The schooled girl never did finish. Merely an
anecdote that may mean nothing, but it is a piece of data.)
I think it only takes years to learn to write when people are forced to
write things they don't care about. Where does most writing practice end
up? In the trash, right? Real writing should make a difference in people's
lives. Sure there's project reports and documentation to write, but do we
need to force kids to write boring stuff so they'll be prepared to write
boring stuff?
High school is when it's more common for kids to feel the need to put words
on paper. But, again, they need real reasons. Perhaps letters of complaint
about a product, letters to the editor, a family newsletter, a pen pal,
email, message boards, an article for the local paper, or one of the
websites out there that kids can submit their writing to.
But many of these things can be "laying around" for him right now, suggested
when it's possible he'd be interested. And dropped when he's not or carried
as far as his interest carries him. As long as he sees writing as
purposeful, then there won't be anything other than natural barriers between
him and putting words to paper.
**\blue{Studies I have read show that certain windows open for certain math
concepts at specific times. There seems to be accumulating evidence for a
certain scope and sequence for math too. I am talking primarily about
getting skills so you can do higher level math.}**
The studies, of course, are based on kids whose basically only exposure to
math is in school. Math to them is artificial, irrelevant to their own
world. How many parents are helping their kids use the math that's all
around them? Math, to most kids (and adults!) is just the stuff in math
books.
But, my daughter *is* being exposed to math right now, using it in ways that
are meaningful to her. She's using the skills she needs right now. I'm not
sitting around waiting for her to pick up a math text.
So, yes, there probably is a window of opportunity for math knowledge. But
there's no way to miss it if a child's curiosity is being fed and she is
immersed in the language of math. There's a window for learning to speak
too, but the only way to miss that is by not speaking to the child. As long
as we speak math to our kids, they'll learn the parts they are
developmentally ready for.
**\blue{What if she chooses no math? How do you handle that?}**
Obviously she hasn't yet. It is possible she'll decide to be a painter and
won't need math beyond consumer math and what's relevant to the science of
color. But she'll have been exposed to fun stuff like Fibonacci numbers and
probabilities and algebraic thought. But, honestly, how many people need
algebra? Why torment a child with "what if" when it's more likely to cause
them to dislike the subject than to learn it?
**\blue{If I tell my wife that I want to try this unschooling approach
starting tomorrow, then what we would do at 8 AM?}**
Sleep? Eat? Watch TV? Go outside and enjoy the sun shining through the
trees? Read a book?
**\blue{Would my son choose when he gets up?}**
Unless he stops breathing, he's always weighing his options and making
choices. They may not be the choices *you'd* want him to make. But, what
if you knew your wife had an agenda for you and there were "right" choices
in her eyes and "wrong" choices and you knew she was weighing the choices
you were making against her idea of "right" and "wrong" and judging the
quality of your choices? How would that affect your relationship? I assume
there are some things you each do to please the other, but they are *still*
choices. The more pressure someone feels from the other to make the choices
the other wants them to make, the more strain there is in the relationship.
**\blue{Would he choose what he wants to learn? Should we let him mess with
the Star Wars games on the computer all day? I am going to go out on a limb
and guess you would say that he would eventually get bored and look for
something else to do or that I should keep offering interesting tidbits he
couldn't resist?}**
Yup. If he's interested, he's learning. It may be hard to see how what
he's learning relates to what is "important" in life. In fact, it may only
be relevant to his life right now. But it *is* relevant. It's nurturing
the person he is now. I think we concentrate too much on moving kids along
to what they should become and preparing them for that.
**\blue{What if he says he never wants to do writing ever?}**
Well, what if? There's *plenty* of professions where people don't need to
write. But do you really think that if he loves something that he will
choose something else just because he doesn't want to write?
**\blue{We just wait him out until he thinks he needs it?}**
And why shouldn't it be important that he write when he thinks he needs it?
Why should it be *more* important that he write when *you* think he needs
it? Wouldn't that mean when all kids hit 12 months we should *make* them
walk because that's when kids need to walk, and we all know how important
walking is so they should get started when we think it's important? Unless
there's something physically wrong with them, or their environment
discourages it, all kids do eventually learn to walk just because they feel
the need to.
If someone made me write an essay on math and kids, it would be as short as
possible to make them go away. But since I'm writing this "essay" to
satisfy my own need to get all these thoughts in order, it's as long as it
needs to be for me.
**\blue{Is it my role to lecture the benefits of the things I have to offer,
but to back off if he doesn't want them?}**
Lecture? Ick. How important would you feel something was if your wife
decided to lecture you about it's importance? What would come across is her
needing to *make* you feel the same way she does about something. And
personally, when someone's trying to make me feel some way about something,
I tend to work up the opposite feelings.
**\blue{So sorry. I should have read the whole post more carefully. My
wife preached to me about that. OK. That is what you would do. I have a
hard time with that one. I don't think you can play catch up in math and
science all that fast. My opinion only.}**
But I do have the advantage of seeing the same math being learned naturally
*way* easier than it's being taught and learned in school. I have the
advantage of reading other people's kids' experiences with unschooling math.
(Helen Hegener has a good story about her son and trigonometry as I recall.)
As for science, ah, I have a rant about that too ;-) The short version is,
I think way too much emphasis is placed on memorizing the answers to
questions kids haven't asked and way too little time on fostering scientific
thinking and fostering a wonder about how the universe works. Once kids are
curious, they'll want the facts. Once they want the facts, they go in so
easily.
**\blue{I need to read a book about the day and the life of an unschooler in
my spare time.}**
Actually a day in the life of an unschooler looks a lot like summer days and
weekends for other people. Unschooling isn't so much in what unschoolers do
as in their attitude towards life and learning and how they're intertwined.
Our conversations are our lessons without being lessons. Everytime my
daughter spontaneously asks a question or tells me about an observation,
that's a "test" that shows me unschooling is working. She may not be
learning a set group of facts that others think are important and can test,
but her questions and observations show she's *thinking* about what she's
learning. For example, it's not so important that she learn that sound
waves bounce off things because that can go in as a factoid without any real
meaning or understanding behind it, but it is important that she bounced a
ball off a wall and said that was like a sound wave. She's making
connections.
Joyce
> I'm wondering how many of you actually unschool for math?This is something I wrote to someone else a while ago that might be helpful.
Or put you to sleep depending on your patience for long windedness ;-)
**\blue{Do you consider doing math from a book "out of context"?}**
Yes, if it's pushed on a child. No, if the child chooses it.
Which is too simplistic, of course, because it's based on certain
assumptions.
**\blue{I have a degree in computer engineering from MIT and there are
definitely prereqs. in math that I think my son would need for most math,
science, engineering, or computer majors.}**
Okay, here comes the math spiel. ;-) I have a degree in Electrical
Engineering from Carnegie Mellon University. I certainly agreed with your
assumptions about math when I first started reading about unschooling. I,
too, was a victim of contextless, rote-learned math. It really seemed the
only way. There were specific ways to do addition, multiplication,
division, and on up the math scale that just had to be explained step by
step and sat down and practiced ad nauseum. And what child was going to put
in all those necessary hours on her own?
It took me several years of reading what other unschoolers had to say but it
really wasn't until I saw my daughter actually manipulating numbers without
being specifically shown how that I understood how unschooling could work
with math.
The problem with school math, and as far as I've seen all math curriculums,
is they start kids off immediately with the abstract. A child may be able
to see they have one brother and one sister and therefore have two siblings,
or one gray cat and one yellow cat to make two cats, but put 1+1 on paper it
becomes incredibly abstract. Why would anyone want to add 73+48? The
process is meaningless. The answer is meaningless. It has no context.
Many math programs do have kids adding sorting bears or manipulating rods or
any number of other hands-on things, but they're still basically
meaningless. The teacher has created the problem and dumped it on the
child. Why does anyone want to know how many blue bears there are? Why are
the red and blue bears being added together?
Now, on the other hand, my daughter is quite intrigued to find out how many
Jurassic dinos she has versus Triassic. How many plant eaters versus meat
eaters. (And whatever other classifications she can come up with, limited
only by her imagination -- versus the 2 or 3 categories of the sorting
bears.) How many years separated the various ages of the dinos. The heights
and weights of them.
And though counting and graphing M&M's by number and color seems the same as
doing these same things with the counting bears, it's not. She's gaining
information in the form of patterns and relationships (that are often
expressed as numbers) about her own world, things *she* cares about.
Obviously there's only so far counting will get you in life ;-) but we
manipulate all sorts of numbers in her life and I make sure she's immersed
in patterns and relationships between various things in her life for her to
examine (or not). Like fractions in cooking and time: "Since the cup is
dirty, how can I make 1 1/2 cups?" "The recipe calls for 1 Tablespoon but
we're cutting it in half. And a Tablespoon is 3 teaspoons. So what would
that be?" "It's an hour and a half or 3 Bill Nyes until Daddy comes home."
"It's 20 minutes or a third of an hour until Xena comes on." Though
learning to take 1/3 of 60 is more universally applicable, she can *feel*
the 20 minutes wait out of 60 minutes and she can get the feel that
fractions are ways of relating one thing to another. Decimals come up with
money. Percentages come up with sales, tax, food labels, possibility of
winning a contest, shrinking an image in a paint program.
She's gaining a feel for the contexts the various concepts are used in, she
sees me manipulating them and helping her manipulate them. And in the
course she's adding pieces to the puzzle of her world, making new patterns
and relationships clearer.
Up until recently we've done zero in the way of formal math. Only a few
months ago she wasn't totally consistent on her addition but I asked her if
she knew what 8x5 was. She said that was 16 +16 + 8. *Not* 8+8+8+8+8,
which would have been a good answer showing she understood the concept of
multiplication, but she manipulated the numbers properly into something she
could feel more intuitively.
Recently she has been doing paper and pencil math under protest. Sort of.
She wants to earn money for Pokemon cards. I buy the packs at any where
from $4-$6 a piece, pull out the trainer cards and then calculate how much
she needs to pay for each Pokemon card. (Or have her do it for a whole
card, though that's still a bit beyond her true understanding even if she
does get the answer right.) I suggested all sorts of household tasks for
her to earn 25 cents or a dollar or whatever which were met with groans.
(She even turned down *$2* to clean out the floor of my car! ;-) I
suggested she do pages in the Miquon math workbooks that have been gathering
dust on the shelf at 10 cents per page. Being a low energy child (like her
mother ;-) she usually opts for the math.
She's getting *much* better at the pages, but I can still see a huge
difference between what she does on paper versus what she does with the real
meaningful numbers in her life. She quickly calculates in her head how much
she's earned and how much she needs and how much she'll have left over after
buying a card, tells me how many 36 cent cards she can get with her $2
allowance versus how many 41 cent ones. (And she does this without drills
and without pages of workbook practice, just from messing around with the
numbers in her life in a very low key way -- the stuff she's doing in the
workbooks is actually much simpler.) She told me the way she figured out
16+16 was it was just 10+10 then 6+6 which is 12 which is 10+2, so that was
10+10+10+2 or 32. She's discovering for herself how to break numbers apart
and play around with them. And she *knows* why someone would want to do
that. If it were taught in a book, it would take weeks and most kids would
still be baffled about what the purpose of it was.
Pencil and paper math and head math *are* different. The pencil and paper
math are a new language she's learning. And yet, I'm quite confident if we
had gone on without much pencil and paper stuff (other than the normal
things that come up in life) she would have caught onto it *way* quicker in
a couple of years without the agony she was putting herself through.
But that's obviously a far way from algebra and trig and calc.
Someone pointed out that algebra is just figuring out what you don't know
from what you do know. Now how did I get all the way through engineering
school without realizing that insight? Maybe because I enjoyed identifying
the problem types and figuring out which methodology to apply to them. It
didn't make any difference whether I truly understood why I was doing what I
was doing. The fun was it worked. Because that's how algebra is taught.
It's all about practicing manipulating different types of equations. It's
not about what those equations mean. Or why anyone would want to write a
quadratic equation let alone solve it. It's all just preparation for
potential contexts. But the equations themselves have no context. They're
meaningless. (Unless you're one of the "good" ones who rise to the surface
through this bizarre math-teaching process just because you happen to like
to manipulate equations for the sake of manipulating equations.)
Quadratic equations don't come up in real life often, but I can help my
daughter to think algebraically when we tackle real life problems. (I may
be doing it already unconsciously, but you'll have to wait a few years for
me to be conscious enough of it to provide real life examples of her using
it. ;-)
Of course that isn't enough to get her into CMU. Or into MIT either ;-)
Now, given the choice, I'm quite certain I wouldn't have gotten in enough
math on my own to get into CMU. So what makes me certain my daughter will?
Well, I'm *not* certain, but what leads me to believe that my daughter's
outlook will be different is, for one thing, I was the victim of force-fed
learning. I needed to be force fed math because I'd always been force fed
learning. I needed to be force fed school math because it had no
relationship to my own world. I didn't *need* it. I can't imagine learning
what I learned on my own because the only thing I have to base my imaginings
on are the process I went through.
What I *can* imagine, though, is being so intrigued by something that the
math gets learned because it makes what I'm interested in make sense. I
*can* imagine forcing myself to learn something in order to achieve
something else. (HTML comes to mind ;-) Though that was more a combination
of both of them.)
What my daughter has going for her is a different experience with math.
Other than the workbook pages :-P, she's used to seeing math as a tool.
She's used to using math because she wants the information it can give her.
So when she gets to high school, she won't have the memory of 8 previous
years of drudgework associated with math.
She'll also have a better foundation of understanding what she's doing.
Though she might be behind her PS counterparts in calculation speed, she'll
be ahead in understanding what the processes mean. (But the speed will
depend on her. If she feels working around gaps in her multiplication
tables is more annoying than learning the tables -- and if she knows that
drilling them or doing other things will help her (and it's my job to help
her learn to identify when a problem exists and to seek out solutions) --
then she'll learn them. If not, she won't. (*I* still have gaps in my
tables.)
So she'll hit her high school years with a different attitude towards math
and learning math. (And this really applies to *all* subjects.)
But will she be able to pick up all the math she needs to get into college
just by living? Well, yes and no.
This is where it gets hard to explain because our thinking is based on
oodles more assumptions.
It's so easy to project a schooled teen (which includes most of us) as a
normal teen and assume all kids given the chance will watch TV and eat
concoctions centering on sugar, fat and salt all day and want nothing more
in life than 256 channels and a clicker in the hand ;-) That behavior is
caused by the stress of school (and a lot of other factors. I have another
rant about being forced to spend 12 years working towards a vague goal that
someone else has chosen for you. ;-) But in an environment where the adults
and everyone else in the family are curious about life, where everyone's
interests are taken seriously (even the so-called non-educational ones), the
kids are actively curious too. There's no reason for them to want to shut
their brains down as a life's goal. (Which doesn't mean my daughter doesn't
watch TV. At times she even watches a lot of TV. But she chooses it for
other reason than shutting off the world. (Though that's a legitimate use
too. It's just that she doesn't have to spend a goodly portion of her free
time recovering from 6 hours of force fed learning in a high-stress
environment everyday.)
Had unschooling been thrust upon me as a teen, I imagine I would have spent
as much time as possible doing nothing. It's hard to imagine a teen
learning on their own something that we ourselves would avoid. It seems
obvious that given the choice most teens would avoid Shakespeare or American
History or Algebra or whatever school made us hate because we know *we'd*
avoid it. But, given a choice, would we have avoided it because it's
inherently dull or because school made it dull? It isn't fair to assume the
behavior of a schooled teen is normal behavior. The only experience
schooled kids have had with most subjects is dull textbooks. The life has
been sucked out of all subjects for them. Why *would* they pursue them on
their own? Especially if they assume the only way to learn them in a
worthwhile way is the way schools teach them?
There's no reason for my daughter to avoid learning because she's never been
forced to do it. To her learning is something you do to find out more about
what you're interested in and to become better at it. It's not something
someone makes you do because they tell you you need it.
She *will* avoid learning in ways that aren't natural for her or don't suit
her needs. Some kids like workbooks. That doesn't make them better
learners than those kids who don't. It just means they learn differently.
She *will* avoid learning anything that isn't relevant to what she wants to
do or is interested in. Which makes parents nervous for two reasons:
1) What if she never gets interested? It's possible she won't on her own.
But it's my job/pleasure to run as much of the world in front of her as
possible. The broader her experiences, the more likely something will
connect to something else in her life and be relevant. (Though I can't
depend on when.) Everything is connected to everything else. And everything
relevant is inherently interesting.
*But* it's also possible she won't get interested in something "important".
Math? Writing? Chemistry? If she has absolutely no interest in it, then
it's unlikely she'll be drawn to a profession that needs it to an extent
greater than she can pick up by living. Though she won't leave the house
without being able to figure out sales tax or write a letter to a friend or
know that baking powder is important in cookies because she'll have used
those. She'll have enough to get by. But it's possible she'll need higher
math than she has. Or better writing skills. Or an entire chemistry
course. Well, if it's just chemistry standing in her way, wouldn't it make
sense for her to go down to the community college and take it rather than
deciding on a different career just because of one course? And if that's
too much trouble, how much did she want that career anyway?
But math and writing? Well, I hope something I'm saying here helps you see
why I believe there's a middle ground between "no math" and 4 years of high
school math from textbooks. And writing I talk about below.
2) And the second reason it makes parents nervous is supposedly there are
things kids need to learn that they won't need until college. And
supposedly it takes 12 years to learn them.
But does it? Does it take 12 years to learn math? Or does it take 12 years
for *schools* to force feed a child math (and writing and history, et al) by
the methods they need to use to force feed 30 kids at a time? Methods which
are also limited to ways that can result in outcomes that can be tested to
demonstrate progress. Also limited only to methods that must be progressive
along a specific track so the next year's teacher can pick up where the
previous teacher left off. Does *math* need taught that way? Or do schools
need to teach it that way to satisfy the needs of schools as assembly lines?
In a way, school math is rather like learning to spell thousands of words
and decline hundreds of verbs of a foreign language without hearing that
foreign language spoken. The rationale being that once all the parts are
learned, the whole can be built from that. But how many kids survive the
rote process? How many kids conclude not before long that the language is
useless because the parts have no meaning? My daughter is hearing the
language and using it, without formally declining the verbs and learning the
spellings. Even if she'd never been exposed to reading it (but already had
the decoding skills from reading English) how long would it take her to
learn to read that foreign language after having learned it from using it?
Once my daughter has a thorough understanding of what it means to do
division, she won't need umpty gajillion problems to practice. Once she has
a thorough understanding of problems with a range of potential solutions
(programming and robotics come right to mind), and has encountered and
understood powers and negative numbers she won't need years of practice to
grasp algebra.
My job is to make sure there are reasons in my daughter's environment to
need the skills and see them being used. (Just as I talked to her well
before she could talk.) Though she finds a lot of uses for the skills on
her own, given the freedom to do so. There's no reason for her to avoid
writing or reading or math (until the workbooks) on her own because she's
never been forced to do them. The hard part is waiting for *her* timescale.
I need to wait until these things are internally important to her. I can't
worry, well, she's 8 now and should be doing ... because natural learning
doesn't have anything to do with calendars and time schedules. It has to do
with needs.
If she has a goal in mind, she won't have anything except natural barriers
between her and it. She won't have what someone thinks she needs to get
there and someone else's *way* she needs to get it standing in her way. If
she decides to become a vet, she'll know what colleges require for her to
get there. *If* her desire is strong enough, she'll learn what she needs to
learn because she wants what the learning can get for her. (Desire is an
incredible motivator.) *And* most importantly she'll have better resources
to achieve it than sitting down with a textbook and slogging through it.
(Though that's an option too. Fortunately she won't have the history of
slogging through textbooks putting up a psychological barrier for her.)
She'll have a good foundation of *understanding* math concepts and will see
it and other math being used (and use it herself) as she explores what it
takes to be a vet: taking care of animals, working in a vet office or a
horse stable.
**\blue{So, if your kids aren't prepared enough to go to a university, then
you assume that they will be motivated to study once they get rejected?}**
The answer to this one is probably obvious from the above. No, I don't
expect rejection to spur her. I expect wanting to do something will spur
her to do something. And perhaps that something won't even be college. I
too had visions of my daughter going onto CMU or MIT. But now my vision has
shifted from preparing her to be anything she wants to be to helping her be
the best her she can be. Yet I'm not sitting around waiting to pounce on
her interests to nurture them. I'm also directing things through her world
that I think are important or I think will interest her. When (if ever) she
picks up on them is up to her. The more important I think something is, the
more likely I'll keep directing it in her path in a way that will interest
her, or connect it to something she is interested in.
**\blue{ We do provide a very stimulating environment. We have books and
materials everywhere. Lots of interesting folks float in and out of our
home and office. While my 9 yo son likes to read and mess around with the
computer, he wouldn't ever just open up a math book.}**
Nor would most kids. For a child to choose the more formal learning in a
book requires an interest and need that the book can fulfill. The
environment may be there, but he's not ready to ask the questions that the
books will answer for him. Or he may be discovering the answers on his own
through self-discovery or talking to people. Unfortunately for nervous
parents, you can't put unschooling on a time schedule. You can't set up the
environment and expect there to be a specific outcome at a specific time.
(Though I can just about guarantee that if the innate talent or desire is in
him for what the computers and people and books can provide, by the time
he's 14 he'll have sucked the environment for all it's worth ;-) 9 is way
too soon for most kids to be doing more than playing around with things and
exploring broadly. They may be delving deeply into some things, but the
cognitive development necessary to make them open a math book for
information just isn't there until the teen years. (Of course there're
always exceptions. But do the exceptions mean that the nonexceptions are
falling behind? Or are the nonexceptions just learning other perhaps less
obvious things? A HS'd friend of my daughter's has *at 8* read all the
Little House books and all their sequels and is well into other historical
novels. Am I jealous? Well, yeah, of course ;-) Yet my daughter is, less
obviously, picking up bits and pieces of world and American history. She's
gaining a broad overview of it all, expanding some bits here and there as
she finds out more about someone or something she's heard interesting things
about. Is one learner better than the other or are they just different?)
**\blue{My son also wouldn't write anything on paper, which I understand is
fairly typical for boys. Writing skills don't progress overnight.}**
Who says? Okay, not overnight, but does it take *years* of practice? Or
does it take years of *using* the skills in ways that are meaningful for the
learner?
**\blue{Are you saying that I should encourage, but not demand? I am still
missing something in terms of how this unschooling plays out.}**
How well would you learn Hindi if someone decided it would be important for
your future because they used Hindi in their lives and so made you practice
for the next 10 years? Wouldn't your goal be to learn as little as possible
to satisfy them? But if you were moving to India, then wouldn't learning
Hindi take *way* less time?
What your son needs is being immersed in an environment where it's important
to communicate his ideas. He also needs to see others using communication
in a meaningful way and to read and hear others communicating in various
ways. When *he* needs to communicate using the written word, he will.
In the meantime, you can make sure he has access to the skills. Listen to a
variety of things: conversation, books and books on tape, comic books,
movies (reading the scripts of favorites is really cool), plays, puppet
shows, poetry, folk tales, nonfiction, cereal boxes, TV Guide, political
talk shows, lyrics, ministers, magazine articles, Nintendo magazine, science
shows, letters to the editor. *Anything* as long as he's interested. He
needs to hear good (and bad) literature so his ear can learn the rhythms of
language. I've pointed out to my daughter why it's tough for me to read the
Magic Tree House books outloud to her and she can now pick up on parts that
sound awkward. (It wasn't a lesson, just an outgrowth of a natural
discussion. Which is probably the heart of unschooling: just talking
naturally about things that happen along. Despite the fact that I'm not a
great talker, some amazing things have come up in conversation.) It has
probably inadvertently sowed the seed of her being more conscious of there
being a range of how well written things are. She would have learned that
anyway though perhaps unconsciously.
(That "happen along" part of unschooling is misleading. It's not that I'm
leaving things to chance, nor am I deliberately bringing something in as a
lesson. I direct a lot of things her way and just from experience know that
from the wealth of things, there will be unexpected learning. Nothing I can
plan though. She learned more than anyone would imagine from a few weeks
watching Gilligan's Island. ;-)
Writing is just talking on paper. You're trying to see where someone
mentally is relative to where you intend your words to take them and then
you plan out a course to get them there. Talk to your son. Ask him to
explain what he's doing and ask questions to help him learn to order his
thoughts and learn to see from the point of view of who he's communicating
with rather than from his own position. (But only ask if you're interested.
Kids have good radar for lessons masked as conversation ;-)
Unless someone has gotten the idea that writing is hard by being forced to
write before they are ready or need to, or being forced to write in ways
that aren't natural to them, once they realize it's just talking on paper,
that little extra step is hardly any step at all. There's additional skills
they can learn, like how to organize their thoughts for something longer,
but it's not a skill that needs 12 years of practice. (A schooled friend of
my daughter's came over to play with my daughter and they decided to make
books together. The schooled girl told her there were all these things you
had to do: title page, a plan, and some other things. My daughter said
"Oh," and just made books. The schooled girl never did finish. Merely an
anecdote that may mean nothing, but it is a piece of data.)
I think it only takes years to learn to write when people are forced to
write things they don't care about. Where does most writing practice end
up? In the trash, right? Real writing should make a difference in people's
lives. Sure there's project reports and documentation to write, but do we
need to force kids to write boring stuff so they'll be prepared to write
boring stuff?
High school is when it's more common for kids to feel the need to put words
on paper. But, again, they need real reasons. Perhaps letters of complaint
about a product, letters to the editor, a family newsletter, a pen pal,
email, message boards, an article for the local paper, or one of the
websites out there that kids can submit their writing to.
But many of these things can be "laying around" for him right now, suggested
when it's possible he'd be interested. And dropped when he's not or carried
as far as his interest carries him. As long as he sees writing as
purposeful, then there won't be anything other than natural barriers between
him and putting words to paper.
**\blue{Studies I have read show that certain windows open for certain math
concepts at specific times. There seems to be accumulating evidence for a
certain scope and sequence for math too. I am talking primarily about
getting skills so you can do higher level math.}**
The studies, of course, are based on kids whose basically only exposure to
math is in school. Math to them is artificial, irrelevant to their own
world. How many parents are helping their kids use the math that's all
around them? Math, to most kids (and adults!) is just the stuff in math
books.
But, my daughter *is* being exposed to math right now, using it in ways that
are meaningful to her. She's using the skills she needs right now. I'm not
sitting around waiting for her to pick up a math text.
So, yes, there probably is a window of opportunity for math knowledge. But
there's no way to miss it if a child's curiosity is being fed and she is
immersed in the language of math. There's a window for learning to speak
too, but the only way to miss that is by not speaking to the child. As long
as we speak math to our kids, they'll learn the parts they are
developmentally ready for.
**\blue{What if she chooses no math? How do you handle that?}**
Obviously she hasn't yet. It is possible she'll decide to be a painter and
won't need math beyond consumer math and what's relevant to the science of
color. But she'll have been exposed to fun stuff like Fibonacci numbers and
probabilities and algebraic thought. But, honestly, how many people need
algebra? Why torment a child with "what if" when it's more likely to cause
them to dislike the subject than to learn it?
**\blue{If I tell my wife that I want to try this unschooling approach
starting tomorrow, then what we would do at 8 AM?}**
Sleep? Eat? Watch TV? Go outside and enjoy the sun shining through the
trees? Read a book?
**\blue{Would my son choose when he gets up?}**
Unless he stops breathing, he's always weighing his options and making
choices. They may not be the choices *you'd* want him to make. But, what
if you knew your wife had an agenda for you and there were "right" choices
in her eyes and "wrong" choices and you knew she was weighing the choices
you were making against her idea of "right" and "wrong" and judging the
quality of your choices? How would that affect your relationship? I assume
there are some things you each do to please the other, but they are *still*
choices. The more pressure someone feels from the other to make the choices
the other wants them to make, the more strain there is in the relationship.
**\blue{Would he choose what he wants to learn? Should we let him mess with
the Star Wars games on the computer all day? I am going to go out on a limb
and guess you would say that he would eventually get bored and look for
something else to do or that I should keep offering interesting tidbits he
couldn't resist?}**
Yup. If he's interested, he's learning. It may be hard to see how what
he's learning relates to what is "important" in life. In fact, it may only
be relevant to his life right now. But it *is* relevant. It's nurturing
the person he is now. I think we concentrate too much on moving kids along
to what they should become and preparing them for that.
**\blue{What if he says he never wants to do writing ever?}**
Well, what if? There's *plenty* of professions where people don't need to
write. But do you really think that if he loves something that he will
choose something else just because he doesn't want to write?
**\blue{We just wait him out until he thinks he needs it?}**
And why shouldn't it be important that he write when he thinks he needs it?
Why should it be *more* important that he write when *you* think he needs
it? Wouldn't that mean when all kids hit 12 months we should *make* them
walk because that's when kids need to walk, and we all know how important
walking is so they should get started when we think it's important? Unless
there's something physically wrong with them, or their environment
discourages it, all kids do eventually learn to walk just because they feel
the need to.
If someone made me write an essay on math and kids, it would be as short as
possible to make them go away. But since I'm writing this "essay" to
satisfy my own need to get all these thoughts in order, it's as long as it
needs to be for me.
**\blue{Is it my role to lecture the benefits of the things I have to offer,
but to back off if he doesn't want them?}**
Lecture? Ick. How important would you feel something was if your wife
decided to lecture you about it's importance? What would come across is her
needing to *make* you feel the same way she does about something. And
personally, when someone's trying to make me feel some way about something,
I tend to work up the opposite feelings.
**\blue{So sorry. I should have read the whole post more carefully. My
wife preached to me about that. OK. That is what you would do. I have a
hard time with that one. I don't think you can play catch up in math and
science all that fast. My opinion only.}**
But I do have the advantage of seeing the same math being learned naturally
*way* easier than it's being taught and learned in school. I have the
advantage of reading other people's kids' experiences with unschooling math.
(Helen Hegener has a good story about her son and trigonometry as I recall.)
As for science, ah, I have a rant about that too ;-) The short version is,
I think way too much emphasis is placed on memorizing the answers to
questions kids haven't asked and way too little time on fostering scientific
thinking and fostering a wonder about how the universe works. Once kids are
curious, they'll want the facts. Once they want the facts, they go in so
easily.
**\blue{I need to read a book about the day and the life of an unschooler in
my spare time.}**
Actually a day in the life of an unschooler looks a lot like summer days and
weekends for other people. Unschooling isn't so much in what unschoolers do
as in their attitude towards life and learning and how they're intertwined.
Our conversations are our lessons without being lessons. Everytime my
daughter spontaneously asks a question or tells me about an observation,
that's a "test" that shows me unschooling is working. She may not be
learning a set group of facts that others think are important and can test,
but her questions and observations show she's *thinking* about what she's
learning. For example, it's not so important that she learn that sound
waves bounce off things because that can go in as a factoid without any real
meaning or understanding behind it, but it is important that she bounced a
ball off a wall and said that was like a sound wave. She's making
connections.
Joyce
Elizabeth Hill
Fetteroll wrote:
Speaking as someone who recently helped clean out her husbands trash heap of a
car and didn't get paid $2, and as someone who DOES bribe her son to cooperate
at the dentist, and as some one whose offspring would probably do just about
ANYTHING for Pokemon cards... I've just gotta say -- I don't think this*sounds
like unschooling*.
(Don't everyone reading groan in unison!)
If my husband wanted to pay me a pittance to memorize Spanish vocabulary (an
area I'd like to improve in), I think I would be the opposite of inspired.
But, in the spirit of sisterhood, I will admit to anxiety about the amount of
math that my son is not noticeably learning. My sneaky, and not exactly
morally exemplary way of dealing with my worries is to buy ridiculous
quantities of math related stuff and pile it around the house. I will confess
to having purchased both "Hive Alive" and "Penrose the Mathematical Cat" in the
last week alone.
Not wanting a big fight, just feeling perverse and cussed and big-mouthed.
Betsy
>Hmmmmmmmm......
> Recently she has been doing paper and pencil math under protest. Sort of.
>
> She wants to earn money for Pokemon cards. I buy the packs at any where
> from $4-$6 a piece, pull out the trainer cards and then calculate how much
> she needs to pay for each Pokemon card. (Or have her do it for a whole
> card, though that's still a bit beyond her true understanding even if she
> does get the answer right.) I suggested all sorts of household tasks for
> her to earn 25 cents or a dollar or whatever which were met with groans.
> (She even turned down *$2* to clean out the floor of my car! ;-) I
> suggested she do pages in the Miquon math workbooks that have been gathering
> dust on the shelf at 10 cents per page. Being a low energy child (like her
> mother ;-) she usually opts for the math.
Speaking as someone who recently helped clean out her husbands trash heap of a
car and didn't get paid $2, and as someone who DOES bribe her son to cooperate
at the dentist, and as some one whose offspring would probably do just about
ANYTHING for Pokemon cards... I've just gotta say -- I don't think this*sounds
like unschooling*.
(Don't everyone reading groan in unison!)
If my husband wanted to pay me a pittance to memorize Spanish vocabulary (an
area I'd like to improve in), I think I would be the opposite of inspired.
But, in the spirit of sisterhood, I will admit to anxiety about the amount of
math that my son is not noticeably learning. My sneaky, and not exactly
morally exemplary way of dealing with my worries is to buy ridiculous
quantities of math related stuff and pile it around the house. I will confess
to having purchased both "Hive Alive" and "Penrose the Mathematical Cat" in the
last week alone.
Not wanting a big fight, just feeling perverse and cussed and big-mouthed.
Betsy
Fetteroll
on 9/19/01 6:29 AM, Elizabeth Hill <ecsamhill@...> wrote:
original impetus wasn't to learn math but to earn money. Admittedly I chose
math as one of the tasks because it doesn't feel -- compared to math in
school! -- like she gets enough practice. (So in that way it was about
learning math. But, in that way, it definitely wasn't unschooling. It was a
schooly reaction to one of those panicky moments.) But the whole point of
relating the story was that she already does understand the workings of
numbers from what little she does in real life and doesn't need the
workbooks, paid or not. Real life *is* enough so my fears are groundless.
The failing wasn't in whether it was or wasn't unschooling but the fact that
I'm a tightwad and that she doesn't want to do a series of tasks to work up
to the money she needs. (If I had to do 35 tasks at a $1 a piece I wouldn't
either!) I'm still trying to puzzle out the dynamics of the situation since
it's a lot like controlling a child's food or tv watching. And yet it isn't.
Or I'm just rationalizing that it isn't.
Joyce
> If my husband wanted to pay me a pittance to memorize Spanish vocabulary (anI wouldn't classify it as not unschooling (or unschooling either) since the
> area I'd like to improve in), I think I would be the opposite of inspired.
original impetus wasn't to learn math but to earn money. Admittedly I chose
math as one of the tasks because it doesn't feel -- compared to math in
school! -- like she gets enough practice. (So in that way it was about
learning math. But, in that way, it definitely wasn't unschooling. It was a
schooly reaction to one of those panicky moments.) But the whole point of
relating the story was that she already does understand the workings of
numbers from what little she does in real life and doesn't need the
workbooks, paid or not. Real life *is* enough so my fears are groundless.
The failing wasn't in whether it was or wasn't unschooling but the fact that
I'm a tightwad and that she doesn't want to do a series of tasks to work up
to the money she needs. (If I had to do 35 tasks at a $1 a piece I wouldn't
either!) I'm still trying to puzzle out the dynamics of the situation since
it's a lot like controlling a child's food or tv watching. And yet it isn't.
Or I'm just rationalizing that it isn't.
Joyce
[email protected]
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Elizabeth Hill <ecsamhill@e...> wrote:
Gotta say I agree with you Betsy.
Rewarding for behavior is manipulative and directive and not(if you
are bribing for math work to be done), IMO unschooling.
Joanna
>Sort of.
>
> Fetteroll wrote:
>
> >
> > Recently she has been doing paper and pencil math under protest.
> >any where
> > She wants to earn money for Pokemon cards. I buy the packs at
> > from $4-$6 a piece, pull out the trainer cards and then calculatehow much
> > she needs to pay for each Pokemon card. (Or have her do it for awhole
> > card, though that's still a bit beyond her true understandingeven if she
> > does get the answer right.) I suggested all sorts of householdtasks for
> > her to earn 25 cents or a dollar or whatever which were met withgroans.
> > (She even turned down *$2* to clean out the floor of my car! ;-) I
> > suggested she do pages in the Miquon math workbooks that havebeen gathering
> > dust on the shelf at 10 cents per page. Being a low energy child(like her
> > mother ;-) she usually opts for the math.Hmmmmmmmm......
>
>trash heap of a
> Speaking as someone who recently helped clean out her husbands
> car and didn't get paid $2, and as someone who DOES bribe her sonto cooperate
> at the dentist, and as some one whose offspring would probably dojust about
> ANYTHING for Pokemon cards... I've just gotta say -- I don't thinkthis*sounds
> like unschooling*.GROAAAAAN.....lol
>
> (Don't everyone reading groan in unison!)
>
Gotta say I agree with you Betsy.
Rewarding for behavior is manipulative and directive and not(if you
are bribing for math work to be done), IMO unschooling.
Joanna
> If my husband wanted to pay me a pittance to memorize Spanishvocabulary (an
> area I'd like to improve in), I think I would be the opposite ofinspired.
>amount of
> But, in the spirit of sisterhood, I will admit to anxiety about the
> math that my son is not noticeably learning. My sneaky, and notexactly
> morally exemplary way of dealing with my worries is to buyridiculous
> quantities of math related stuff and pile it around the house. Iwill confess
> to having purchased both "Hive Alive" and "Penrose the MathematicalCat" in the
> last week alone.mouthed.
>
> Not wanting a big fight, just feeling perverse and cussed and big-
>
> Betsy