[Unschooling-dotcom] Wrong Crowd
[email protected]
Hi, I received a call from a friend looking for advise. I was not certain
what to tell her so I thought I would ask her question here, everyone here
always have lots of good ideas!
I will try to keep this short. The problem is that my friend feels that her
son (age 15) runs around with a group of boys (ages 17-19) that she feels is
have become a determent to her son. Her son Dan began to run with them late
last school year. Dan is unschooled but has been in and out of public school
several times over the last 6 years at his request. His parents are very open
to what he wants to do. They have also allowed him much freedom to run around
town (pop 1500) at all hours which may be how he hooked up with the older
kids. His Mom thought the older boys were ok at first, kind of mouthy she
said but she thought they were just kids having fun. Now she is not so sure
since Dan has begun to smoke tobacco, has a bad attitude, swears profusely,
and may be drinking alcohol. Dan is an only child. His main problem has
always been not having many friends. But he is very likable, my kids always
liked being with him, but we live 68 miles from him so could not see him
often.
Any ideas would be appreciated. I have not had to deal with this type of
problem myself so I am not sure what advise to give.
Thanks
Candy
what to tell her so I thought I would ask her question here, everyone here
always have lots of good ideas!
I will try to keep this short. The problem is that my friend feels that her
son (age 15) runs around with a group of boys (ages 17-19) that she feels is
have become a determent to her son. Her son Dan began to run with them late
last school year. Dan is unschooled but has been in and out of public school
several times over the last 6 years at his request. His parents are very open
to what he wants to do. They have also allowed him much freedom to run around
town (pop 1500) at all hours which may be how he hooked up with the older
kids. His Mom thought the older boys were ok at first, kind of mouthy she
said but she thought they were just kids having fun. Now she is not so sure
since Dan has begun to smoke tobacco, has a bad attitude, swears profusely,
and may be drinking alcohol. Dan is an only child. His main problem has
always been not having many friends. But he is very likable, my kids always
liked being with him, but we live 68 miles from him so could not see him
often.
Any ideas would be appreciated. I have not had to deal with this type of
problem myself so I am not sure what advise to give.
Thanks
Candy
[email protected]
I have two sons, now age 22 and 24. I tried to always know what they
were doing and where they were. They had to be home by 10pm every
night, as that was when I wanted to be done for the day and I needed
to know where they were before I could be done. They complained, of
course, but now they tell me about all the stuff they got away with
anyway. I don't think I was strict or controlling, but I drew a line
and that seemed to keep them out of trouble. At 15, your friend's son
can now make bad decisions that will mess up (or at least make very
difficult) the rest of his life. Your friend may feel horrible about
taking control, but everyone will be grateful in the future. My
regret is that my older son got caught up with a Dungeons and Dragons
crowd. I met most of them and knew there were some older people
involved. My son had a level head and was a good kid. The crowd
included a 28 year old woman who latched on to my son when he was 17
and half. Unfortunately I was swayed by the male influences in my
life at the time who thought is was cool for him to have such a
relationship. I wanted to call the police for child molesting,
something I certainly would have done if he'd been a girl and she a
man. He found out she wasn't so great of a person and when he tried
to break free, she manipulated him with suicide threats. He didn't
know how to handle this and never asked for advice. We didn't know
this was happeneing as he was no longer living at home. Eight years
later he's married to a nice woman closer to his age, but he's still
involved with the ex daily, as they are sharing custody of the 2 year
old produced as a last attempt by her to keep him.
While it may seem heavy handed, your friends should follow their
hearts which may include putting retrictions on Dan. Teenage years
are harder that the terrible twos, but parents mostly DO know best, we
are not their buddies, we are the most valiant protectors. I have
found that they only "hate" us until they realize that we were right.
were doing and where they were. They had to be home by 10pm every
night, as that was when I wanted to be done for the day and I needed
to know where they were before I could be done. They complained, of
course, but now they tell me about all the stuff they got away with
anyway. I don't think I was strict or controlling, but I drew a line
and that seemed to keep them out of trouble. At 15, your friend's son
can now make bad decisions that will mess up (or at least make very
difficult) the rest of his life. Your friend may feel horrible about
taking control, but everyone will be grateful in the future. My
regret is that my older son got caught up with a Dungeons and Dragons
crowd. I met most of them and knew there were some older people
involved. My son had a level head and was a good kid. The crowd
included a 28 year old woman who latched on to my son when he was 17
and half. Unfortunately I was swayed by the male influences in my
life at the time who thought is was cool for him to have such a
relationship. I wanted to call the police for child molesting,
something I certainly would have done if he'd been a girl and she a
man. He found out she wasn't so great of a person and when he tried
to break free, she manipulated him with suicide threats. He didn't
know how to handle this and never asked for advice. We didn't know
this was happeneing as he was no longer living at home. Eight years
later he's married to a nice woman closer to his age, but he's still
involved with the ex daily, as they are sharing custody of the 2 year
old produced as a last attempt by her to keep him.
While it may seem heavy handed, your friends should follow their
hearts which may include putting retrictions on Dan. Teenage years
are harder that the terrible twos, but parents mostly DO know best, we
are not their buddies, we are the most valiant protectors. I have
found that they only "hate" us until they realize that we were right.
[email protected]
<< My
regret is that my older son got caught up with a Dungeons and Dragons
crowd. >>
My fifteen year old plays D&D weekly, with teens, some older, but no adult
women.
I knew (well) an adult woman who preyed on teenaged boys in the SCA in the
late 1970's and early 1980's. It wasn't the SCA's fault, it was hers and the
boys (who consented, and YES I wish she had left them alone, and she still
tries, sometimes, at her advanced age (my age <g>) to get guys to accomodate
her, but she aims at 30 yr olds now.
I think it's gross, but I don't think D&D caused one or the SCA the other,
except for the potential opportunity for a grown woman to socialize with
teens.
<<I have found that they only "hate" us until they realize that we were
right.>>
I have some experience to the contrary.
Often parents aren't right.
And the suicide mention (of the evil older ex) is interesting, because I've
been trying to figure out how to respond to the original question, and I can
never get out of my head the images of the living, breathing Charles Montoya
and Alice Laws, who were in school, in band and (Alice was) in Sunday school
with me, but they killed themselves, one in 9th and one in 10th grade.
Marty was running around with some older, rude friends.
I kept him talking, invited them over (they didn't want to come--a clue for
Marty), I questioned their motives, and their treatment of one another. When
he wanted to go hang around with them (they'd meet at Pokemon at Toys R'Us
and then walk across the street to a park, or walk into the mall), I'd just
warn him not to let them mistreat him or get him in trouble. He decided
after a few months that they weren't honest enough or nice enough for his
tastes.
In a case in which the teen won't discuss it with the mom, though, I don't
know what advice to give.
Kirby is out late a couple of times a week, but with people I trust, and I
always have the phone number where he'll be, and he comes back when he says
he will (even if it's 3:30 am., after the midnight-starting anime club m
eeting). Partly I'm lucky. Partly we talk a lot. Partly his friends tell
him he's lucky. Partly I trust him because of his personality and
analytical ability. So what works for one family's kids won't work for all.
I would recommend something I've recommended in other instances, and that is
to get the kid out of town, out of the state if possible, with the mom at
least, and whole family is possible. Many days in a row doing something
interesting, foreign, different, in different air, will bring out
communications and truths that are not going to come up in the daily
surroundings and routine.
It it seems too expensive, tell her she might want to price counseling and a
couple of visits with a juvenile courts lawyer, and see whether it doesn't
seem a little better choice.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
regret is that my older son got caught up with a Dungeons and Dragons
crowd. >>
My fifteen year old plays D&D weekly, with teens, some older, but no adult
women.
I knew (well) an adult woman who preyed on teenaged boys in the SCA in the
late 1970's and early 1980's. It wasn't the SCA's fault, it was hers and the
boys (who consented, and YES I wish she had left them alone, and she still
tries, sometimes, at her advanced age (my age <g>) to get guys to accomodate
her, but she aims at 30 yr olds now.
I think it's gross, but I don't think D&D caused one or the SCA the other,
except for the potential opportunity for a grown woman to socialize with
teens.
<<I have found that they only "hate" us until they realize that we were
right.>>
I have some experience to the contrary.
Often parents aren't right.
And the suicide mention (of the evil older ex) is interesting, because I've
been trying to figure out how to respond to the original question, and I can
never get out of my head the images of the living, breathing Charles Montoya
and Alice Laws, who were in school, in band and (Alice was) in Sunday school
with me, but they killed themselves, one in 9th and one in 10th grade.
Marty was running around with some older, rude friends.
I kept him talking, invited them over (they didn't want to come--a clue for
Marty), I questioned their motives, and their treatment of one another. When
he wanted to go hang around with them (they'd meet at Pokemon at Toys R'Us
and then walk across the street to a park, or walk into the mall), I'd just
warn him not to let them mistreat him or get him in trouble. He decided
after a few months that they weren't honest enough or nice enough for his
tastes.
In a case in which the teen won't discuss it with the mom, though, I don't
know what advice to give.
Kirby is out late a couple of times a week, but with people I trust, and I
always have the phone number where he'll be, and he comes back when he says
he will (even if it's 3:30 am., after the midnight-starting anime club m
eeting). Partly I'm lucky. Partly we talk a lot. Partly his friends tell
him he's lucky. Partly I trust him because of his personality and
analytical ability. So what works for one family's kids won't work for all.
I would recommend something I've recommended in other instances, and that is
to get the kid out of town, out of the state if possible, with the mom at
least, and whole family is possible. Many days in a row doing something
interesting, foreign, different, in different air, will bring out
communications and truths that are not going to come up in the daily
surroundings and routine.
It it seems too expensive, tell her she might want to price counseling and a
couple of visits with a juvenile courts lawyer, and see whether it doesn't
seem a little better choice.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
about many things: sex, diseases, politics, religous beliefs, sexual
orientation. The older one pondered how to know if he's making a good
decision. I suggested that, since we are so open with each other, if
it's something he wouldn't want me to know about, maybe he ought to
think twice about it...
Terese (who forgets to sign her name most of the time - sorry)
PS: You're right about D&D, it's not to blame, but can draw a few
characters that good kids should be wary of.
>don't
>
> In a case in which the teen won't discuss it with the mom, though, I
> know what advice to give.Now that my sons are full grown (and even a bit before) we talk openly
>
about many things: sex, diseases, politics, religous beliefs, sexual
orientation. The older one pondered how to know if he's making a good
decision. I suggested that, since we are so open with each other, if
it's something he wouldn't want me to know about, maybe he ought to
think twice about it...
Terese (who forgets to sign her name most of the time - sorry)
PS: You're right about D&D, it's not to blame, but can draw a few
characters that good kids should be wary of.
[email protected]
<< PS: You're right about D&D, it's not to blame, but can draw a few
characters that good kids should be wary of.
Kirby has lots of hobbies, but he hangs out with two groups which both have
young adults. One is the anime club he's in (the prez is a fundamentalist
Christian so they have no nasty bits, ever), and the other is the gaming
group. He does D&D, but more likes structured games like Seventh Sea and
Warlord (card games similar to Magic). There are people who grow up and keep
on playing. It's no more evil than those who live to ski or race stock cars
or ride horses--it's just different. Lots of these young adults still live
at home, because they'd rather spend their money on anime and games. I
suppose although some of the adults are lacking social skills, they're also
not drinking alcohol, not using drugs (one smokes cigarettes, out of fifteen
or so, and the rest snort at him about it), and I NEVER worry that they're
out on the street shaking down younger gamers for their booster-pack money.
Most of them have decent jobs and running automobiles, and they're all bright
and conversant, so things could be worse, no doubt.
I wish I had better suggestions for others.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
characters that good kids should be wary of.
>>There is a true weirdness about "the gaming geeks."
Kirby has lots of hobbies, but he hangs out with two groups which both have
young adults. One is the anime club he's in (the prez is a fundamentalist
Christian so they have no nasty bits, ever), and the other is the gaming
group. He does D&D, but more likes structured games like Seventh Sea and
Warlord (card games similar to Magic). There are people who grow up and keep
on playing. It's no more evil than those who live to ski or race stock cars
or ride horses--it's just different. Lots of these young adults still live
at home, because they'd rather spend their money on anime and games. I
suppose although some of the adults are lacking social skills, they're also
not drinking alcohol, not using drugs (one smokes cigarettes, out of fifteen
or so, and the rest snort at him about it), and I NEVER worry that they're
out on the street shaking down younger gamers for their booster-pack money.
Most of them have decent jobs and running automobiles, and they're all bright
and conversant, so things could be worse, no doubt.
I wish I had better suggestions for others.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Sharon Rudd
Sandra..... partly you are blessed. And partly you
are blessed becuase you know are blessed.
Camping and hiking are cheap. I mean inexpensive.
Sharon
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com
are blessed becuase you know are blessed.
Camping and hiking are cheap. I mean inexpensive.
Sharon
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
> In a case in which the teen won't discuss it withPartly I'm lucky. Partly we talk a lot.
> the mom, though, I don't
> know what advice to give.
> Partly his friends tell__________________________________________________
> him he's lucky. Partly I trust him because of his
> personality and
> analytical ability. So what works for one family's
> kids won't work for all.
>
> I would recommend something I've recommended in
> other instances, and that is
> to get the kid out of town, out of the state if
> possible, with the mom at
> least, and whole family is possible. Many days in a
> row doing something
> interesting, foreign, different, in different air,
> will bring out
> communications and truths that are not going to come
> up in the daily
> surroundings and routine.
>
> It it seems too expensive, tell her she might want
> to price counseling and a
> couple of visits with a juvenile courts lawyer, and
> see whether it doesn't
> seem a little better choice.
>
> Sandra
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com
Sharon Rudd
> << PS: You're right about D&D, it's not to blame,EVERTHING does that. We ALL have to be alert ALWAYS.
> but can draw a few
> characters that good kids should be wary of.
Sharon
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com
Fetteroll
on 9/29/01 2:44 PM, discovery6@... at discovery6@... wrote:
but someone who does have a good relationship with her teens strongly
recommends Parent/Teen Breakthrough: the relationship approach by Mira
Kirshenbaum. She sums up her book by saying Don't do anything that doesn't
enhance your relationship with your teen.
Teens are designed to break away from control so the more parents try to
control the harder the teens fight against it. So the teen years are times
to work on the relationship so that they feel the parent is someone they can
talk to about things rather than someone who is still trying to run their
lives.
Sandra's idea sounds like a good way of jumping to the talking point without
letting go and then waiting (what would undoubtedly feel like ages!) for the
teen to realize the parent is there for him to talk with.
Joyce
> I will try to keep this short. The problem is that my friend feels that herI have zero credibility in the teen department since my daughter is only 10
> son (age 15) runs around with a group of boys (ages 17-19) that she feels is
> have become a determent to her son.
but someone who does have a good relationship with her teens strongly
recommends Parent/Teen Breakthrough: the relationship approach by Mira
Kirshenbaum. She sums up her book by saying Don't do anything that doesn't
enhance your relationship with your teen.
Teens are designed to break away from control so the more parents try to
control the harder the teens fight against it. So the teen years are times
to work on the relationship so that they feel the parent is someone they can
talk to about things rather than someone who is still trying to run their
lives.
Sandra's idea sounds like a good way of jumping to the talking point without
letting go and then waiting (what would undoubtedly feel like ages!) for the
teen to realize the parent is there for him to talk with.
Joyce
Bridget
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
I have zero credibility in the teen department since my daughter is
only 10
> but someone who does have a good relationship with her teens
strongly
> recommends Parent/Teen Breakthrough: the relationship approach by
Mira
> Kirshenbaum. She sums up her book by saying Don't do anything that
doesn't
> enhance your relationship with your teen.
You know, what bugs me most about parents (and adults) in general is
the fact that they treat teen agers like children. My girls are my
social and moral equal. They are 14 and 16. Yes, I am still their
mother, yes they listen to me about as much as I listen to my mother
who also lives on this property. We all respect each other as people
and talk to each otehr a lot. My three best female friends are my
mother and my daughters.
Bridget
In the midst of a conversation, I said this and someone picked it up
as a tagline for a while. It sums up my thoughts on teens very well!
"We treat our teens like children at best and criminals at worst,
then are surprised and shocked when they act like children or act
like criminals."
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/30/01 2:01:18 PM, crma@... writes:
<< he finally managed to get his reading skills when
he found D&D in junior high. Before that time *nothing* he was given
in school or found was worth the pain of reading >>
MAYBE he was just a guy who didn't get reading until he was 12 or 13, and in
"Are You My Mother?" fashion, D&D was what was there when it happened. <g>
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, at all. My boys credit Nintendo Power
Magazine (Kirby) and the player's guide for Breath of Fire III (Marty), but I
guess it could have been any other thing that was right there when they "got
it."
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< he finally managed to get his reading skills when
he found D&D in junior high. Before that time *nothing* he was given
in school or found was worth the pain of reading >>
MAYBE he was just a guy who didn't get reading until he was 12 or 13, and in
"Are You My Mother?" fashion, D&D was what was there when it happened. <g>
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, at all. My boys credit Nintendo Power
Magazine (Kirby) and the player's guide for Breath of Fire III (Marty), but I
guess it could have been any other thing that was right there when they "got
it."
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd