age divisions and limitations with unschoolers
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<< Why was it necessary? Just curious. >>
I'm curious too, because the New Mexico discussion list has just had a tussle
over age requirements (I was against them)--three came to light in one week,
for a dance class, a games day ("10 and up" someone said) and a teens group
("15 and up").
I objected, got jumped on, was defended, some people expressed sorrow at
disagreement, some expressed that the list was more interesting with
disagreement (unfortunately it was somewhat at my expense), and it will serve
to divide the group somewhat, for a while, and ultimately create more
opportunities for some kids from time to time.
I have no doubt Susan had some good reason or another. The thing that got me
about the examples in New Mexico were the defenses that a couple of people
came up with. Not good defenses. One was "the games we play say right on
the box 10 to adult or 12 to adult." One was the dance school was forming
classes by physical development and ability. Well no they weren't--they said
"6 to 8." The developmental realities are across a range of 5 to ten or so,
probably, but they arbitrarily said 6 to 8. So I was cranky not on behalf
of my own kids (although Holly at nine was cut out of ALL those activities,
not that she'd've wanted to go to the teen group, although Marty at really
tall, into puberty and almost 13 might have theoretically wanted to; he
didn't), but on behalf of kids with less courageous moms who would never
question those numbers which were arbitrary at best and purposefully cutting
off individual kids at worst.
One of the defenders of the 10 yr cut off for the gaming day said "the 2-10
group..." and I responded that there IS no "2-10 'group'."
Some six and seven and eight year olds can read great and can play games
really well. Some ten year olds can't read well enough and have no interest
whatsoever anyway.
One of my favorite parts of unschooling is the matching of humans to
interests without grade levels or ages. I was really grumpy when the Society
for Creative Anachronism started adding age requirements to various offices.
When I joined teens could be officers (except for seneschal, the president of
local groups who has to sign contracts) and could enter tournaments.
Gradually more and more requirements were added until now kids are kids and I
think it's a huge step backward. Kids used to be people there.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
I'm curious too, because the New Mexico discussion list has just had a tussle
over age requirements (I was against them)--three came to light in one week,
for a dance class, a games day ("10 and up" someone said) and a teens group
("15 and up").
I objected, got jumped on, was defended, some people expressed sorrow at
disagreement, some expressed that the list was more interesting with
disagreement (unfortunately it was somewhat at my expense), and it will serve
to divide the group somewhat, for a while, and ultimately create more
opportunities for some kids from time to time.
I have no doubt Susan had some good reason or another. The thing that got me
about the examples in New Mexico were the defenses that a couple of people
came up with. Not good defenses. One was "the games we play say right on
the box 10 to adult or 12 to adult." One was the dance school was forming
classes by physical development and ability. Well no they weren't--they said
"6 to 8." The developmental realities are across a range of 5 to ten or so,
probably, but they arbitrarily said 6 to 8. So I was cranky not on behalf
of my own kids (although Holly at nine was cut out of ALL those activities,
not that she'd've wanted to go to the teen group, although Marty at really
tall, into puberty and almost 13 might have theoretically wanted to; he
didn't), but on behalf of kids with less courageous moms who would never
question those numbers which were arbitrary at best and purposefully cutting
off individual kids at worst.
One of the defenders of the 10 yr cut off for the gaming day said "the 2-10
group..." and I responded that there IS no "2-10 'group'."
Some six and seven and eight year olds can read great and can play games
really well. Some ten year olds can't read well enough and have no interest
whatsoever anyway.
One of my favorite parts of unschooling is the matching of humans to
interests without grade levels or ages. I was really grumpy when the Society
for Creative Anachronism started adding age requirements to various offices.
When I joined teens could be officers (except for seneschal, the president of
local groups who has to sign contracts) and could enter tournaments.
Gradually more and more requirements were added until now kids are kids and I
think it's a huge step backward. Kids used to be people there.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
On Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:58:43 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
although there were some loose guidelines for some stuff, usually with
some explanation about what specific things might make it difficult for
significantly older or younger kids. The group we've joined here seems
okay with it, too - most things say something like "around 11 to 13", and
it seems clear that a 9 year old or a 14 year old could try it out, too.
The thing that is different, though, is that so many activities are only
open to boys or girls, not both...that's something I've never seen happen
with any other group, and I don't like it much.
We do know three sisters (12, 14, and 15) who were going to join a teen
group but changed their minds when the youngest sister wasn't allowed in
because she wasn't 13. :-/
Dalmuti and Bohnanza ranged in age from 7 to, um, over forty, at least.
Some even younger kids played on a team with an adult or older kid. The
games went on for hours, and everyone had fun. Of course, lots of people
of all ages had no interest in gaming, and played legos and swung on the
tire swing or toted babies or knitted or cooked...
our local park a few weeks ago and was thinking she'd like to get into
it, and I was slowly in the process of gathering info...but I don't
really want to get into it, so I was hoping I could sort of help her get
started and help with the sewing and stuff, but mostly let it just be her
thing.
Daron
> I'm curious too, because the New Mexico discussion list has just had atussle
> over age requirements (I was against them)--three came to light in oneweek,
> for a dance class, a games day ("10 and up" someone said) and aThe group we hung with in California never had any age requirements,
> teens group ("15 and up").
although there were some loose guidelines for some stuff, usually with
some explanation about what specific things might make it difficult for
significantly older or younger kids. The group we've joined here seems
okay with it, too - most things say something like "around 11 to 13", and
it seems clear that a 9 year old or a 14 year old could try it out, too.
The thing that is different, though, is that so many activities are only
open to boys or girls, not both...that's something I've never seen happen
with any other group, and I don't like it much.
We do know three sisters (12, 14, and 15) who were going to join a teen
group but changed their minds when the youngest sister wasn't allowed in
because she wasn't 13. :-/
>games
> Some six and seven and eight year olds can read great and can play
> really well. Some ten year olds can't read well enough and have noAt the party we were at a week or so ago, the folks playing The Great
> interest whatsoever anyway.
Dalmuti and Bohnanza ranged in age from 7 to, um, over forty, at least.
Some even younger kids played on a team with an adult or older kid. The
games went on for hours, and everyone had fun. Of course, lots of people
of all ages had no interest in gaming, and played legos and swung on the
tire swing or toted babies or knitted or cooked...
>I'm sorry to hear that. Cacie spotted the U of A SCA group practicing at
> Gradually more and more requirements were added until now kids are
> kids and I
> think it's a huge step backward. Kids used to be people there.
our local park a few weeks ago and was thinking she'd like to get into
it, and I was slowly in the process of gathering info...but I don't
really want to get into it, so I was hoping I could sort of help her get
started and help with the sewing and stuff, but mostly let it just be her
thing.
Daron
[email protected]
(About SCA activities for children...)
<< But then I'm not sure they are up
to homeschoolers, let alone unschoolers!<g> >>
Probably true. The children's activities here are becoming steadly more
schoolish (and not very medieval either). It gags me, and then because my
kids don't go there it looks like I KEPT them from going there. WHY would it
look that way? Because most other families are MAKING their kids go to the
kids' area. Huh. My kids have a choice.
Some other adults either don't believe it, don't get it or don't like it.
So they assume kids do what their parents say, my kids choose to just play
and visit instead of going to school-like kids' activities, therefore I must
not be cooperating.
Huh. <g>
Sandra
<< But then I'm not sure they are up
to homeschoolers, let alone unschoolers!<g> >>
Probably true. The children's activities here are becoming steadly more
schoolish (and not very medieval either). It gags me, and then because my
kids don't go there it looks like I KEPT them from going there. WHY would it
look that way? Because most other families are MAKING their kids go to the
kids' area. Huh. My kids have a choice.
Some other adults either don't believe it, don't get it or don't like it.
So they assume kids do what their parents say, my kids choose to just play
and visit instead of going to school-like kids' activities, therefore I must
not be cooperating.
Huh. <g>
Sandra
[email protected]
I just finished reading my first John Holt book. "How Children Fail".
While I really enjoyed the book and his perspectives, most of the
concepts weren't new to me, since I have been reading about
unschooling and living unschooling for quite a while. There was one
thing that did stand out as far as something I hadn't really thought
about. He discussed how so many adults don't like children. Not
just the ones who don't have them, or are obvious about it, but the
ones who teach them, or even have them. It's something they feel
guilty about, or won't admit to themselves, but it's obvious in their
attitude. He mentions that sweet syrupy voice and fake smiles that
many adults use on children.
I think there are a lot of adults who have children, but don't really
like them. Or they like theirs okay, but don't like others.
I think it's obvious when people age segregate.
I think it shows a lack of trust in children, and it's an obvious
statment against "undesirable behavior" that is *sure* to come with
certain aged children.
I think it's okay not to like children very much. I just wish those
people wouldn't organize things and decide everyone else must feel
the same way.
Joanna
While I really enjoyed the book and his perspectives, most of the
concepts weren't new to me, since I have been reading about
unschooling and living unschooling for quite a while. There was one
thing that did stand out as far as something I hadn't really thought
about. He discussed how so many adults don't like children. Not
just the ones who don't have them, or are obvious about it, but the
ones who teach them, or even have them. It's something they feel
guilty about, or won't admit to themselves, but it's obvious in their
attitude. He mentions that sweet syrupy voice and fake smiles that
many adults use on children.
I think there are a lot of adults who have children, but don't really
like them. Or they like theirs okay, but don't like others.
I think it's obvious when people age segregate.
I think it shows a lack of trust in children, and it's an obvious
statment against "undesirable behavior" that is *sure* to come with
certain aged children.
I think it's okay not to like children very much. I just wish those
people wouldn't organize things and decide everyone else must feel
the same way.
Joanna
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> (About SCA activities for children...)
>
> << But then I'm not sure they are up
> to homeschoolers, let alone unschoolers!<g> >>
>
> Probably true. The children's activities here are becoming steadly
more
> schoolish (and not very medieval either). It gags me, and then
because my
> kids don't go there it looks like I KEPT them from going there.
WHY would it
> look that way? Because most other families are MAKING their kids
go to the
> kids' area. Huh. My kids have a choice.
>
> Some other adults either don't believe it, don't get it or don't
like it.
>
> So they assume kids do what their parents say, my kids choose to
just play
> and visit instead of going to school-like kids' activities,
therefore I must
> not be cooperating.
>
> Huh. <g>
>
> Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/26/01 8:24:49 AM, Wilkinson6@... writes:
<< I think there are a lot of adults who have children, but don't really
like them. Or they like theirs okay, but don't like others. >>
School makes it worse, too.
Whether realized or not, kids resent being made to go there and blame the
parents.
Parents lose the natural ease with their children they had before the kids
were in school, and so the relationship is more awkward and distant.
If a kid at school says "My dad says..." the teacher might say "Your dad's
wrong," or if a kid's mom helps with an assignment and it's not the way the
teacher wanted, the message is the mom doesn't even know 2nd grade stuff.
That blatant undermining of the family has been going on for a couple of
generations, and is getting worse, I think, as schools feel more "important"
and are emboldened.
Some states don't allow dropping out anymore. Kids are supposed to be in
until they're 18. BABYSAT and controlled by governmental strangers until
they're 18! GROSS! And by then, the kids have been taught by daily practice
that it's okay to hate kids from other schools, to ignore or belittle those
in the class below you (pep rallies that separate seniors from juniors and
sophomores and the three of those groups are by tradition to torment the
freshmen are NOT designed to make sweeter people), it's okay to have school
loyalty, but family loyalty is to be snorted about. Visiting parents are
good for other kids to critique, to comment on their opinions on the mom's
sexual value and whether the dads could beat up or be beat up.
It's altogether gross.
So when I see a homeschooling group moving toward kids' activities (instead
of family activities), and age divisions, it comes closer to playing school
without a building than to the vision of unschooling which is so important to
me personally. I really believe in what I'm doing. It's not just a lack of
being in school. It's doing things a whole different way every day, not just
during school hours.
So I'm dismayed by our local problems and I hope those who are defending the
divisions get SOME idea of the objections to them, and the difference between
looking at a game box or looking at a calendar, and looking at an individual
child-person.
Sandra
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< I think there are a lot of adults who have children, but don't really
like them. Or they like theirs okay, but don't like others. >>
School makes it worse, too.
Whether realized or not, kids resent being made to go there and blame the
parents.
Parents lose the natural ease with their children they had before the kids
were in school, and so the relationship is more awkward and distant.
If a kid at school says "My dad says..." the teacher might say "Your dad's
wrong," or if a kid's mom helps with an assignment and it's not the way the
teacher wanted, the message is the mom doesn't even know 2nd grade stuff.
That blatant undermining of the family has been going on for a couple of
generations, and is getting worse, I think, as schools feel more "important"
and are emboldened.
Some states don't allow dropping out anymore. Kids are supposed to be in
until they're 18. BABYSAT and controlled by governmental strangers until
they're 18! GROSS! And by then, the kids have been taught by daily practice
that it's okay to hate kids from other schools, to ignore or belittle those
in the class below you (pep rallies that separate seniors from juniors and
sophomores and the three of those groups are by tradition to torment the
freshmen are NOT designed to make sweeter people), it's okay to have school
loyalty, but family loyalty is to be snorted about. Visiting parents are
good for other kids to critique, to comment on their opinions on the mom's
sexual value and whether the dads could beat up or be beat up.
It's altogether gross.
So when I see a homeschooling group moving toward kids' activities (instead
of family activities), and age divisions, it comes closer to playing school
without a building than to the vision of unschooling which is so important to
me personally. I really believe in what I'm doing. It's not just a lack of
being in school. It's doing things a whole different way every day, not just
during school hours.
So I'm dismayed by our local problems and I hope those who are defending the
divisions get SOME idea of the objections to them, and the difference between
looking at a game box or looking at a calendar, and looking at an individual
child-person.
Sandra
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd