Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1492
Fetteroll
on 9/20/01 6:05 AM, Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...> wrote:
things I'd suggest *generally* as unschooling ways to approach writing for
*any* teen. (Note the change of pronouns and nouns from the more specific
you to more general "a child" and "she" rather than "your daughter" and so
on.
It was probably confusing to return to "you" by putting the quotes at the
bottom. They were originally at the top where they belonged, but as the
writing evolved they interrupted the flow of ideas. They were more for
references sake by the end of the evolution of the writing, preferenced by
"BTW" since they were an aside.
Here's my original post so no one has to go digging. Not that, at this
point, anyone else not involved really cares ;-)
on 9/17/01 5:27 PM, Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...> wrote:
misunderstanding about what people were saying was not unschooling.
I pulled the quotes from your original message that were being objected to.
They were about *academics*. You didn't explain (despite the fact that I
posted them twice and asked twice) how it could be child-led, uncoerced,
natural learning if you're determining that a specific amount must be done
in order for the learning to take place. I *understand* that you have this
on your chores chart. I *understand* you put it there for convenience sake.
But for those trying to understand how kids can learn what *they* need to
know (as opposed to what others say they need to know) by pursuing what
interests them, it is confusing if someone says it's unschooling to insist
that something needs to be learned in a particular way.
To me, an unschooling approach would be to give a child information she's
lacking in order to make an informed choice. For instance, let her know that
colleges *may* expect more writing than she's used to. (It really depends on
the college and the course of study she pursues.) She may or may not feel
that's a problem.
If she does, there are many ways to approach it. She could take a community
college course. She could find a program and go through it on her own. She
could post to message boards. She could find pen pals. She could write in a
journal. She could write articles for the local paper. She could write to
some students at the colleges she's thinking of and *ask* how much writing
is involved. (Colleges generally have some students who volunteer to host
others.) Or other options. She could ask mom to remind her.
If *she* insists writing 500 words each week is the best approach and *she*
insists she needs someone to *make* her do it each week and punish her if
she doesn't, then that's an area to discuss.
It might be motherly (or following your heart or "common sense" or whatever
you'd care to label it nor not label it) to insist it is a problem and she
needs to do something about it. And if someone wants to do that, then they
should do that. But it's unfair to others trying to understand unschooling
to call it unschooling.
It would be unschooling to know that she's the best judge of who she is and
what *she* needs and to know that she needs to make the decisions that feel
right for her. If she later finds out the decision had consequences she
hadn't anticipated, then she's learned something else and can then reassess
the problem and seek a new solution.
The best way to learn to write is by writing for real, personally meaningful
reasons. If the kids aren't writing without someone reminding them, then it
isn't real or personally meaningful to them. It may be a "chore" they choose
over cleaning the toilet, but it isn't child led learning anymore than
choosing an apple over dog food is child-led eating.
The best way to write a lot is by having real deadlines for real reasons.
She'll be getting those (sort of) in college. (Only sort of because the
consequences are all made up. Unlike in the business world, neither the
world nor the college will be a better or worse place if a paper is or isn't
turned in. Colleges have to make up consequences -- grades -- so that there
are consequences to doing or not doing homework.) There will be a real
reason for doing the writing to a certain standard and she will have full
freedom to do it or not do it, knowing the consequences are not negotiable.
To me, anyway, writing as a chore is even further removed from real actions
being tied to real consequences since the chore consequences don't depend
specifically on the writing. The purpose of writing should be to communicate
something to someone else for a real reason. (As I'm doing here.) Not to
fulfill a word limit. The consequences of writing well or not writing well
are not gaining or losing car privileges (or whatever) but communicating or
not communicating. Writing in order to get 500 words onto the page won't
have the same result as writing because *the writer wants* to change
someone's mind about something, or tell them something they didn't know
before.
BTW, here's the quotes:
the word "MY" in "as long as it meets my basic standards of HOW MUCH." (in
reference to writing each week.)
the words "have to" in "they have to write (physically)"
And there was another quote a few days later that said your daughter
(paraphrasing since I've emptied my deleted items folder) "had to get used
to writing this much in college each week."
Joyce
> Sorry to sound flippant. But go read her whole post. She is talkingThe beginning is in reply to you, then it branches off to the types of
> directly to me just as I am talking to you. Whether she intended the
> list of suggestions only for me is up for questioning and I'll concede
> that it is a general list and very useful.
things I'd suggest *generally* as unschooling ways to approach writing for
*any* teen. (Note the change of pronouns and nouns from the more specific
you to more general "a child" and "she" rather than "your daughter" and so
on.
It was probably confusing to return to "you" by putting the quotes at the
bottom. They were originally at the top where they belonged, but as the
writing evolved they interrupted the flow of ideas. They were more for
references sake by the end of the evolution of the writing, preferenced by
"BTW" since they were an aside.
Here's my original post so no one has to go digging. Not that, at this
point, anyone else not involved really cares ;-)
on 9/17/01 5:27 PM, Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...> wrote:
> That's all well and good Brenda, but I've been told that what we areThis very much misrepresents the exchange. Or the entire disucssion was a
> doing cannot possibly be unschooling because we sat down together and
> worked out a way for the housework to get done without one person having
> to pick up the slack left by the other 4.
misunderstanding about what people were saying was not unschooling.
I pulled the quotes from your original message that were being objected to.
They were about *academics*. You didn't explain (despite the fact that I
posted them twice and asked twice) how it could be child-led, uncoerced,
natural learning if you're determining that a specific amount must be done
in order for the learning to take place. I *understand* that you have this
on your chores chart. I *understand* you put it there for convenience sake.
But for those trying to understand how kids can learn what *they* need to
know (as opposed to what others say they need to know) by pursuing what
interests them, it is confusing if someone says it's unschooling to insist
that something needs to be learned in a particular way.
To me, an unschooling approach would be to give a child information she's
lacking in order to make an informed choice. For instance, let her know that
colleges *may* expect more writing than she's used to. (It really depends on
the college and the course of study she pursues.) She may or may not feel
that's a problem.
If she does, there are many ways to approach it. She could take a community
college course. She could find a program and go through it on her own. She
could post to message boards. She could find pen pals. She could write in a
journal. She could write articles for the local paper. She could write to
some students at the colleges she's thinking of and *ask* how much writing
is involved. (Colleges generally have some students who volunteer to host
others.) Or other options. She could ask mom to remind her.
If *she* insists writing 500 words each week is the best approach and *she*
insists she needs someone to *make* her do it each week and punish her if
she doesn't, then that's an area to discuss.
It might be motherly (or following your heart or "common sense" or whatever
you'd care to label it nor not label it) to insist it is a problem and she
needs to do something about it. And if someone wants to do that, then they
should do that. But it's unfair to others trying to understand unschooling
to call it unschooling.
It would be unschooling to know that she's the best judge of who she is and
what *she* needs and to know that she needs to make the decisions that feel
right for her. If she later finds out the decision had consequences she
hadn't anticipated, then she's learned something else and can then reassess
the problem and seek a new solution.
The best way to learn to write is by writing for real, personally meaningful
reasons. If the kids aren't writing without someone reminding them, then it
isn't real or personally meaningful to them. It may be a "chore" they choose
over cleaning the toilet, but it isn't child led learning anymore than
choosing an apple over dog food is child-led eating.
The best way to write a lot is by having real deadlines for real reasons.
She'll be getting those (sort of) in college. (Only sort of because the
consequences are all made up. Unlike in the business world, neither the
world nor the college will be a better or worse place if a paper is or isn't
turned in. Colleges have to make up consequences -- grades -- so that there
are consequences to doing or not doing homework.) There will be a real
reason for doing the writing to a certain standard and she will have full
freedom to do it or not do it, knowing the consequences are not negotiable.
To me, anyway, writing as a chore is even further removed from real actions
being tied to real consequences since the chore consequences don't depend
specifically on the writing. The purpose of writing should be to communicate
something to someone else for a real reason. (As I'm doing here.) Not to
fulfill a word limit. The consequences of writing well or not writing well
are not gaining or losing car privileges (or whatever) but communicating or
not communicating. Writing in order to get 500 words onto the page won't
have the same result as writing because *the writer wants* to change
someone's mind about something, or tell them something they didn't know
before.
BTW, here's the quotes:
the word "MY" in "as long as it meets my basic standards of HOW MUCH." (in
reference to writing each week.)
the words "have to" in "they have to write (physically)"
And there was another quote a few days later that said your daughter
(paraphrasing since I've emptied my deleted items folder) "had to get used
to writing this much in college each week."
Joyce