Bridget E Coffman

> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:34:30 EDT From: brendaclaspell@...

> This sort of implies to me that at one time you thought ps was a good
idea
> and had to have your thinking changed, either by yourself or your
children.
> So I'd hesitate to say that this whole lifestyle comes easier to you
than
> anyone else. I had a homebirth, extended breastfeeding, family bed,
relaxed
> sleep schedule, etc. I have been called more relaxed than a lot of my
own
> family and friends, but I still have more to learn and grow.
Unschooling is
> still new to me, even though it feels completely right. I was raised
in the
> ps system and some things have to be addressed and changed or they
will
> continue into my parenting. I don't think I represent the minority
here. I
> think we all have things we need to learn and work on as parents. I'm
sure
> there will be lots more stuff, and when I stop being willing to
challenge my
> ideas, is where I will stagnate.

Actually it wasn't my thinking about whether ps was good or bad that
changed, it was more that ps is not what I remember from my childhood.
My beliefs about WHAT it is changed, not my beliefs about education.
Maybe I was just in the world's best school, or maybe things have really
changed that much, I don't know. All I do know for sure is that there
were things happening that would not have happened at my old school back
then.


> I got the impression from your earlier post that the reason we all
> don't get how what you're doing isn't controlling, is that you're so
advanced in
> letting go, we couldn't understand. Have there been any
suggestions/advice
> from this list that you've taken off the computer and thought, hmmmm,
maybe
> their right, maybe I do need to rethink this.?
>
> Brenda

Not yet, but I keep hoping that when people are done telling me how wrong
I am and calling us dysfunctional and telling me they would be depressed
if they were my kid, there will be something useful. Although, I'm
beginning to wonder. I can't even offer a benign bit of advice without
six people jumping in telling me that it won't work or that it will
irritate kids.
I didn't have to let go because I wasn't holding on in the first place.
That was actually a problem with the school thing. I was somewhat less
than helpful (from the teachers point of view) when I told my kids their
homework was ridiculous and they didn't have to do it.
I do think that part of the misunderstanding stems from the fact that
when I say "Have to write" to you what I say to my kids is, "you could
maybe write". When I say "job list" it is organizational not assignment
from me. I tend to overstate the requirement factor out of habit. (I've
had enough visits from CPS, thanks.)

Bridget

~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought

- Henri Bergson

Fetteroll

on 9/19/01 2:29 PM, Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...> wrote:

> I can't even offer a benign bit of advice without
> six people jumping in telling me that it won't work or that it will
> irritate kids.

And I can see how after the last 2 weeks you would take the number of people
who replied to that particular suggestion personally. But I think it was
more the fact that one happens to be one of the "should do" things that is
on many "things to do to help you child be a reader" lists. So it was more a
response to the lists that make us feel guilty for not doing it right than
to you for suggesting it.

Ones that really make me cringe are Read 30 minutes a day, and read every
day starting at 6 months. If I had been more sold on expert advice over my
own instincts (and unfortunately I do have those tendencies!) I would have
been forcing my daughter to sit through books at 2 when she had *no*
interest for fear she'd not learn to read.

Joyce

[email protected]

You know, I didn't catch either of these "issues" in the discussion. I saw
it mentioned (the pointing thing), didn't even catch who had made the
suggestion, saw the 2 dozen replies about how it worked for some kids but
some kids were annoyed by it, nodded and said to myself "Yep," and that was
it. I really think it wasn't anything more than that folks.

Nance


In a message dated 09/20/2001 12:05:38 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
fetteroll@... writes:


> > I can't even offer a benign bit of advice without
> > six people jumping in telling me that it won't work or that it will
> > irritate kids.
>
> And I can see how after the last 2 weeks you would take the number of people
> who replied to that particular suggestion personally. But I think it was
> more the fact that one happens to be one of the "should do" things that is
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

Hi Everyone,

I came back from a few days away to find Helen's post. I am saddened because
although Helen post rarely, her posts are filled with such down home good
advice and I always am glad to see her addy in my box. I also appreciate the
connection to HEM because it really is a good homeschooling magazine amongst
some that are horrible (of course my opinion).

I have read most of the posts from the past several days. I understand
people's concerns . . both newbies and veterans, at least as best I can. The
bickering back and forth that has been going on has got to stop. The constant
"pissing match" (I forgot who said that but I agree with it) is over. The
appalling rudeness towards HEM and Helen will not be tolerated. Those things
ought to be pretty clear. Yes, an introductory letter is a good idea and one
we are working on. We (as moderators) have been trying to be as unobtrusive
as possible, but clearly that is not working. We are back to square one it
seems. It seems apparent that long standing old sores are being opened back
up again. It doesn't seem to me that this is the way to create community that
supports unschooling and helps people coming in as well as those who have
been around to learn and grow in this journey.

Cindy and I will be discussing ways in which to make this community work
better for all of us. More than likely we will have a panel of a couple of
people that we choose helping us to do that. Thanks to all of you who are
making the effort to make this list a vibrant and healthy discussion of
unschooling, and thanks for bearing with us through this challenging phase.

Living in Abundance
Mary

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., lite2yu@a... wrote:
The
> appalling rudeness towards HEM and Helen will not be tolerated.


Mary,

While you are considering things, please consider this. I believe the
person who mentioned the magazine was questioning whether the silence
of Helen implied support for Sandra and her way of expressing herself
here. Yes, it was a little vehement but I believe it was followed
shortly by an apology, if I'm not mistaken.

I think perhaps it needs to be made clear that a magazine considers
articles for publication based mostly on what the specific article
says and not so much on the personality (or e-persona) of the writer.

I think Helen may have done the right thing in disassociating HEM from
this list. It simply is not possible to censor a forum such as this
in a way that would not look bad for HEM. And to leave it free does
imply (to some) that HEM endorses what is said.

Anyway, just wanted you to have my .02 while pondering.

Bridget

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/25/02 9:07:01 PM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< Yes, it was a little vehement but I believe it was followed
shortly by an apology, if I'm not mistaken. >>

I don't remember an apology, but it doesn't really matter. It was an attempt
at HUGE distraction and troublemaking. It was a way NOT to talk about
unschooling and then to blame me. It was an ugly dig at HEM which has done a
world of good by sponsoring www.unschooling.com and this forum.

It amounted to the implication that because I defend myself and I'll defend
unschooling that I can't write an essay. Something like that posted in
public by someone who has NOT read my essays was an attempt at damage to HEM
and to my reputation.

That would have required so large an apology I'm sure I would have noticed
one.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 3/25/02 11:06:58 PM Eastern Standard Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< en implied support for Sandra and her way of expressing herself
here. Yes, it was a little vehement but I believe it was followed
shortly by an apology, if I'm not mistaken.>>>

No, there was not an apology. To be sure, I went back and checked.

<<<>>

Some magazines may do that. Others don't. I am not sure how HEM does it.

<<< I think Helen may have done the right thing in disassociating HEM from
this list. It simply is not possible to censor a forum such as this
in a way that would not look bad for HEM. And to leave it free does
imply (to some) that HEM endorses what is said.
>>

I don't share that opinion. In fact, Helen has an open invitation to have HEM
be involved once things get straightened out here and she is comfortable
doing so. I trust that people are smart enough to understand that people are
individuals and have different opinions and styles and can figure things out.

As I said, any malignment of any kind towards HEM will not be tolerated.

Living in Abundance
Mary

[email protected]

I sent this several days ago and it just showed up. I don't know why; sorry.

In a message dated 3/29/02 3:35:08 AM, SandraDodd@... writes:

<<
In a message dated 3/25/02 9:07:01 PM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< Yes, it was a little vehement but I believe it was followed
shortly by an apology, if I'm not mistaken. >>

I don't remember an apology, but it doesn't really matter. It was an attempt
at HUGE distraction and troublemaking. It was a way NOT to talk about
unschooling and then to blame me. It was an ugly dig at HEM which has done a
world of good by sponsoring www.unschooling.com and this forum.

It amounted to the implication that because I defend myself and I'll defend
unschooling that I can't write an essay. Something like that posted in
public by someone who has NOT read my essays was an attempt at damage to HEM
and to my reputation.

That would have required so large an apology I'm sure I would have noticed
one.

Sandra
>>

Helen Hegener

At 9:55 AM -0500 3/29/2002, SandraDodd@... wrote:
>I don't remember an apology, but it doesn't really matter. It was an attempt
>at HUGE distraction and troublemaking. It was a way NOT to talk about
>unschooling and then to blame me. It was an ugly dig at HEM which has done a
>world of good by sponsoring www.unschooling.com and this forum.
>
>It amounted to the implication that because I defend myself and I'll defend
>unschooling that I can't write an essay. Something like that posted in
>public by someone who has NOT read my essays was an attempt at damage to HEM
>and to my reputation.

Ah, okay. :::deep breath::: I need to address this issue, and I think
I should do it now instead of at my convenience.

I believe the part I need to address was the business of whether or
not Home Education Magazine endorsed everything written by the people
who write for us as columnists (I'm assuming there was no tremendous
leap to everyone who writes or works for us in any capacity). Truth
be told, there are times when I doubt if what *I* write would be
*endorsed* by "the magazine," and "the magazine," such as it is, is
in reality just me and Mark. How's that for convoluted?

I disagree with myself at times, like when I unsubbed from this list
in a hissy fit. Does that reflect HEM policy? Geez, I hope not! I'm
sure it raised eyebrows from those who aren't familiar with our
publication (what kind of magazine do they produce, anyway?), but
we've always tried to level with our readership; we're just
homeschooling parents who happen to do this for a living. We're
pretty normal. If magazine publishers are supposed to be held to some
higher calling, stuck up on a pedestal and held out as an example,
well... sorry folks. Not this one. Judge me all you want, but don't
judge our magazine by what I might say or write or do - it's the sum
total of dozens of peoples' efforts, not just mine. I try to be
responsible, to not embarrass my colleagues and co-workers, but we've
all seen how well I do that on this list. (Yeah, there was a lot of
"YOU DID WHAT?" at the office this week... <g>)

I think the other question related to criticizing HEM. As far as I'm
concerned, that's not taboo. If someone thinks we need an upbraiding,
so be it. We're pretty thick-skinned; we've survived the publishing
business for over 20 years now and as John Holt wrote to us after our
first issue: "That's a tough row to hoe."

"Deliberate attempts at damage" are serious matters. We've been down
that road, and we don't take them lightly. Questioning policies,
commenting unkindly, posting "digs" and such are relatively minor
infractions, and we recognize them for what they are. We take them
seriously, but in the same way we take seriously the letters from
irate subscribers wanting to know why their issue arrived torn and
mutilated (the post office did it, not us!) or people who've never
subscribed by get ugly because we finally tell them we're not going
to send their umpteenth "free sample issue." (Yeah, we really get
both complaints. Tough row to hoe, remember?)

There are *many* other posts I'd love to address right now as well,
but if I don't get my butt out the door the boat's gonna leave
without me. Literally. Ciao!

Helen

gruvystarchild

-I'm hoping this means you'll stay Helen...please?
I do put you on a sort of pedestal...not because I think anyone is
perfect, or close to, but you've walked the walk. You ARE an
inspiration to many and the magazine is a voice that we need.
Thank you for it all!
Ren




-- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@h...> wrote:
> At 9:55 AM -0500 3/29/2002, SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> >I don't remember an apology, but it doesn't really matter. It was
an attempt
> >at HUGE distraction and troublemaking. It was a way NOT to talk
about
> >unschooling and then to blame me. It was an ugly dig at HEM which
has done a
> >world of good by sponsoring www.unschooling.com and this forum.
> >
> >It amounted to the implication that because I defend myself and
I'll defend
> >unschooling that I can't write an essay. Something like that
posted in
> >public by someone who has NOT read my essays was an attempt at
damage to HEM
> >and to my reputation.
>
> Ah, okay. :::deep breath::: I need to address this issue, and I
think
> I should do it now instead of at my convenience.
>
> I believe the part I need to address was the business of whether or
> not Home Education Magazine endorsed everything written by the
people
> who write for us as columnists (I'm assuming there was no
tremendous
> leap to everyone who writes or works for us in any capacity). Truth
> be told, there are times when I doubt if what *I* write would be
> *endorsed* by "the magazine," and "the magazine," such as it is, is
> in reality just me and Mark. How's that for convoluted?
>
> I disagree with myself at times, like when I unsubbed from this
list
> in a hissy fit. Does that reflect HEM policy? Geez, I hope not! I'm
> sure it raised eyebrows from those who aren't familiar with our
> publication (what kind of magazine do they produce, anyway?), but
> we've always tried to level with our readership; we're just
> homeschooling parents who happen to do this for a living. We're
> pretty normal. If magazine publishers are supposed to be held to
some
> higher calling, stuck up on a pedestal and held out as an example,
> well... sorry folks. Not this one. Judge me all you want, but don't
> judge our magazine by what I might say or write or do - it's the
sum
> total of dozens of peoples' efforts, not just mine. I try to be
> responsible, to not embarrass my colleagues and co-workers, but
we've
> all seen how well I do that on this list. (Yeah, there was a lot of
> "YOU DID WHAT?" at the office this week... <g>)
>
> I think the other question related to criticizing HEM. As far as
I'm
> concerned, that's not taboo. If someone thinks we need an
upbraiding,
> so be it. We're pretty thick-skinned; we've survived the publishing
> business for over 20 years now and as John Holt wrote to us after
our
> first issue: "That's a tough row to hoe."
>
> "Deliberate attempts at damage" are serious matters. We've been
down
> that road, and we don't take them lightly. Questioning policies,
> commenting unkindly, posting "digs" and such are relatively minor
> infractions, and we recognize them for what they are. We take them
> seriously, but in the same way we take seriously the letters from
> irate subscribers wanting to know why their issue arrived torn and
> mutilated (the post office did it, not us!) or people who've never
> subscribed by get ugly because we finally tell them we're not going
> to send their umpteenth "free sample issue." (Yeah, we really get
> both complaints. Tough row to hoe, remember?)
>
> There are *many* other posts I'd love to address right now as well,
> but if I don't get my butt out the door the boat's gonna leave
> without me. Literally. Ciao!
>
> Helen

rumpleteasermom

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@h...> wrote:

>
> There are *many* other posts I'd love to address right now as well,
> but if I don't get my butt out the door the boat's gonna leave
> without me. Literally. Ciao!
>
> Helen

Helen,

Thank you for this well written post. I think it answered the
questions that were being asked.

Hope you had fun sailing!!!

Bridget

Helen Hegener

At 12:11 AM +0000 3/30/2002, gruvystarchild wrote:
>-I'm hoping this means you'll stay Helen...please?

Yes, I'm staying. I've even haggled Mary into resetting me as
listowner. Yahoo sure doesn't make these things easy or convenient...

>I do put you on a sort of pedestal...not because I think anyone is
>perfect, or close to, but you've walked the walk. You ARE an
>inspiration to many and the magazine is a voice that we need.

Thanks for writing that, Ren. Makes it easier to sit here after
everyone has gone to bed and try to catch up with this list again.
Mark and I do realize that many people love and rely on the magazine,
the websites, the newsletters, the message boards, these lists...
that's why we're still doing this even though our kids have pretty
much grown up and left home. We've thought about just sailing off
into the sunset (literally), but we're still enjoying what we do. I
still look forward to seeing what's been posted on this list and
others from day to day. I learn so much from you all! I wish I had
time to track the message boards at our websites as well, but one
cannot do it all, even if one wants to.

(Love your gruvystarchild screename, BTW.)

Helen

Helen Hegener

Okay. I've spent some time this evening going back over many posts
I'd bookmarked for reply, and most of the posts I missed earlier last
week. I started to reply to one or two of them, but decided instead
that I really need to go get some sleep. If there's a post or a
question someone would really like for me to reply to, please send it
to me (onlist or off) and I'll try to post a response as soon as I
can.

Our May/June issue goes to the printer first thing in the morning,
our son and his family head back to Alaska tomorrow afternoon, and
for the next two weeks I'll be right here, working on taxes and
scanning these lists when the number games start driving me too
crazy. <g>

I have more I wanted to share, but as I noted above, I need some sleep.

Helen

gruvystarchild

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Helen Hegener <HEM-Editor@h...> wrote:
> At 12:11 AM +0000 3/30/2002, gruvystarchild wrote:
> >-I'm hoping this means you'll stay Helen...please?
>
> Yes, I'm staying. I've even haggled Mary into resetting me as
> listowner. Yahoo sure doesn't make these things easy or
convenient...
>
Oh goodie!! And thank you.
>
> (Love your gruvystarchild screename, BTW.)
Thanks Helen. It somehow fits.
> Helen