Unschooling
[email protected]
I think unschooling should involve MUCH looking back and seeing what has and
hasn't worked well. I think nobody can make another person grow up, not his
mom and not hiimself. Growth is gradual and happens best in safe and
supportive and loving conditions. This I know from looking back, from
looking around, from asking and reading and hearing sad stories of
less-than-optimal situations--stories from adults and children both--and
hearing MANY success stories from current unschooling moms and kids, from
attachment parenting families, and others living consciously.
In a message dated 9/16/01 9:15:53 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
<< Oh, then I guess the archives added this to message #25013:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And if the information here is diluted or polluted by non-unschooling
advice
in sufficient measure, then people will still not see unschooling.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>
That doesn't mean you're not welcome, it means it's not good for this list to
be filled with advice which is not intended to promote unschooling.
If you are, by your defense, and by pulling this quote, admitting that you
are guilty of diluting or polluting, then YOU yourself might be saying that
you know what you're writing isn't unschooling.
And your post just before this was NOT designed to encourage the questioner
to continue to pursue unschooling:
(Quote to the end:)
I personally believe this: Nobody's 'approach' is right for my family
except ours. We run pretty much as a democracy with a few exceptions.
This description is all general and subject to fluidity on any given day.
My personal input into the family is as organizer. I keep us all on
track and moving. The kids each have different jobs. Rachel is in
charge of outside stuff for the most part although some of the gardens
are mine. Jenni is in charge of books (becasue she has read them all)
and a lot of inside stuff. Wyndham is in charge of making Wyndham grow
up. When the girls were his age they went through similar albeit less
troublesome phases. We have a job list and some basic guidelines for
getting the housework done fairly. But none of that has anything to do
with 'education'. As for learning and schoolwork, our lifestyle is a
little less easy to explain. I do require that my girls be doing
something. I have some basic suggestions loosely attached to the
jobslist but they can and often do fly out the window. Rachel has a
violin she is learning to play and if she is doing that, I'm happy with
it. If she were vegging out and not doing ANYTHING for a prolonged
period of time, I would worry and check into her allergy and depression
levels. So the list and the requirement for 'something' is more a
medical watch thing than it is about school work.
But then the dynamics here are a bit odd too. Rachel and Wyndham (oldest
and youngest) have most of the medical problems and are most physically
active. The middle one, Jenni, often ends up holding things together and
helping me the most but for anyone looking in from the outside it appears
she is not doing much.
The so called basic school stuff, math, history, english, etc. are so
meshed into our lives that I can't even say this is what we do to teach
that. I just know that my uncle was astounded at Rachel's knowledge of
history and politics a week or so ago. I didn't 'teach' her that. She
just 'is' that.
So my best advice is to figure out what works for you. Don't try to
assign names to it (because someone somewhere will try to tell you that
that isn't what you are doing) and just do it and don't look back.
Bridget
~~~~~~~~~~~~ F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If electricity comes from electrons . . .
. . . does that mean that morality comes from morons?
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
hasn't worked well. I think nobody can make another person grow up, not his
mom and not hiimself. Growth is gradual and happens best in safe and
supportive and loving conditions. This I know from looking back, from
looking around, from asking and reading and hearing sad stories of
less-than-optimal situations--stories from adults and children both--and
hearing MANY success stories from current unschooling moms and kids, from
attachment parenting families, and others living consciously.
In a message dated 9/16/01 9:15:53 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
<< Oh, then I guess the archives added this to message #25013:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And if the information here is diluted or polluted by non-unschooling
advice
in sufficient measure, then people will still not see unschooling.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>
That doesn't mean you're not welcome, it means it's not good for this list to
be filled with advice which is not intended to promote unschooling.
If you are, by your defense, and by pulling this quote, admitting that you
are guilty of diluting or polluting, then YOU yourself might be saying that
you know what you're writing isn't unschooling.
And your post just before this was NOT designed to encourage the questioner
to continue to pursue unschooling:
(Quote to the end:)
I personally believe this: Nobody's 'approach' is right for my family
except ours. We run pretty much as a democracy with a few exceptions.
This description is all general and subject to fluidity on any given day.
My personal input into the family is as organizer. I keep us all on
track and moving. The kids each have different jobs. Rachel is in
charge of outside stuff for the most part although some of the gardens
are mine. Jenni is in charge of books (becasue she has read them all)
and a lot of inside stuff. Wyndham is in charge of making Wyndham grow
up. When the girls were his age they went through similar albeit less
troublesome phases. We have a job list and some basic guidelines for
getting the housework done fairly. But none of that has anything to do
with 'education'. As for learning and schoolwork, our lifestyle is a
little less easy to explain. I do require that my girls be doing
something. I have some basic suggestions loosely attached to the
jobslist but they can and often do fly out the window. Rachel has a
violin she is learning to play and if she is doing that, I'm happy with
it. If she were vegging out and not doing ANYTHING for a prolonged
period of time, I would worry and check into her allergy and depression
levels. So the list and the requirement for 'something' is more a
medical watch thing than it is about school work.
But then the dynamics here are a bit odd too. Rachel and Wyndham (oldest
and youngest) have most of the medical problems and are most physically
active. The middle one, Jenni, often ends up holding things together and
helping me the most but for anyone looking in from the outside it appears
she is not doing much.
The so called basic school stuff, math, history, english, etc. are so
meshed into our lives that I can't even say this is what we do to teach
that. I just know that my uncle was astounded at Rachel's knowledge of
history and politics a week or so ago. I didn't 'teach' her that. She
just 'is' that.
So my best advice is to figure out what works for you. Don't try to
assign names to it (because someone somewhere will try to tell you that
that isn't what you are doing) and just do it and don't look back.
Bridget
~~~~~~~~~~~~ F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If electricity comes from electrons . . .
. . . does that mean that morality comes from morons?
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Sarah Carothers
SANDRA!
For God's sake, stop picking on everybody whom you disagree with and get *on* with your unschooling life! You certainly have expressed your views and we ALL know them all too well!
Sarah
For God's sake, stop picking on everybody whom you disagree with and get *on* with your unschooling life! You certainly have expressed your views and we ALL know them all too well!
Sarah
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2001 11:48 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Unschooling
I think unschooling should involve MUCH looking back and seeing what has and
hasn't worked well. I think nobody can make another person grow up, not his
mom and not hiimself. Growth is gradual and happens best in safe and
supportive and loving conditions. This I know from looking back, from
looking around, from asking and reading and hearing sad stories of
less-than-optimal situations--stories from adults and children both--and
hearing MANY success stories from current unschooling moms and kids, from
attachment parenting families, and others living consciously.
In a message dated 9/16/01 9:15:53 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:
<< Oh, then I guess the archives added this to message #25013:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And if the information here is diluted or polluted by non-unschooling
advice
in sufficient measure, then people will still not see unschooling.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>
That doesn't mean you're not welcome, it means it's not good for this list to
be filled with advice which is not intended to promote unschooling.
If you are, by your defense, and by pulling this quote, admitting that you
are guilty of diluting or polluting, then YOU yourself might be saying that
you know what you're writing isn't unschooling.
And your post just before this was NOT designed to encourage the questioner
to continue to pursue unschooling:
(Quote to the end:)
I personally believe this: Nobody's 'approach' is right for my family
except ours. We run pretty much as a democracy with a few exceptions.
This description is all general and subject to fluidity on any given day.
My personal input into the family is as organizer. I keep us all on
track and moving. The kids each have different jobs. Rachel is in
charge of outside stuff for the most part although some of the gardens
are mine. Jenni is in charge of books (becasue she has read them all)
and a lot of inside stuff. Wyndham is in charge of making Wyndham grow
up. When the girls were his age they went through similar albeit less
troublesome phases. We have a job list and some basic guidelines for
getting the housework done fairly. But none of that has anything to do
with 'education'. As for learning and schoolwork, our lifestyle is a
little less easy to explain. I do require that my girls be doing
something. I have some basic suggestions loosely attached to the
jobslist but they can and often do fly out the window. Rachel has a
violin she is learning to play and if she is doing that, I'm happy with
it. If she were vegging out and not doing ANYTHING for a prolonged
period of time, I would worry and check into her allergy and depression
levels. So the list and the requirement for 'something' is more a
medical watch thing than it is about school work.
But then the dynamics here are a bit odd too. Rachel and Wyndham (oldest
and youngest) have most of the medical problems and are most physically
active. The middle one, Jenni, often ends up holding things together and
helping me the most but for anyone looking in from the outside it appears
she is not doing much.
The so called basic school stuff, math, history, english, etc. are so
meshed into our lives that I can't even say this is what we do to teach
that. I just know that my uncle was astounded at Rachel's knowledge of
history and politics a week or so ago. I didn't 'teach' her that. She
just 'is' that.
So my best advice is to figure out what works for you. Don't try to
assign names to it (because someone somewhere will try to tell you that
that isn't what you are doing) and just do it and don't look back.
Bridget
~~~~~~~~~~~~ F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If electricity comes from electrons . . .
. . . does that mean that morality comes from morons?
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Diane
Growth is indeed gradual, but I think it's also easy to forget that it's not a
smooth, steady slope. It's often a sudden spurt followed by a slide, followed by
a plateau, followed by a spurt in another area entirely. (This may be totally
off-topic here, but I got off on the gradual growth tangent.)
Somehow the inlaws (or whomever) see only the slide, plateau, and change in
direction.
:-) Diane
SandraDodd@... wrote:
smooth, steady slope. It's often a sudden spurt followed by a slide, followed by
a plateau, followed by a spurt in another area entirely. (This may be totally
off-topic here, but I got off on the gradual growth tangent.)
Somehow the inlaws (or whomever) see only the slide, plateau, and change in
direction.
:-) Diane
SandraDodd@... wrote:
> I think unschooling should involve MUCH looking back and seeing what has and
> hasn't worked well. I think nobody can make another person grow up, not his
> mom and not hiimself. Growth is gradual and happens best in safe and
> supportive and loving conditions. This I know from looking back, from
> looking around, from asking and reading and hearing sad stories of
> less-than-optimal situations--stories from adults and children both--and
> hearing MANY success stories from current unschooling moms and kids, from
> attachment parenting families, and others living consciously.
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/16/01 10:01:16 AM, puddles@... writes:
<< SANDRA!
For God's sake, stop picking on everybody whom you disagree with and get *on*
with your unschooling life! You certainly have expressed your views and we
ALL know them all too well!
Sarah >>
I wrote about unschooling. You should too!
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< SANDRA!
For God's sake, stop picking on everybody whom you disagree with and get *on*
with your unschooling life! You certainly have expressed your views and we
ALL know them all too well!
Sarah >>
I wrote about unschooling. You should too!
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Sarah
I, for one, would like to keep hearing Sandra's views. Could you just
delete the posts you don't want to read?
Sarah Anderson-Thimmes
Sarah Carothers wrote:
NetZero Platinum
Only $9.95 per month!
Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2!
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delete the posts you don't want to read?
Sarah Anderson-Thimmes
Sarah Carothers wrote:
> SANDRA!---------------------------------------------------------------
> For God's sake, stop picking on everybody whom you disagree with and
> get *on* with your unschooling life!
NetZero Platinum
Only $9.95 per month!
Sign up in September to win one of 30 Hawaiian Vacations for 2!
http://my.netzero.net/s/signup?r=platinum&refcd=PT97
[email protected]
<< Just curious but what topic exactly do you feel is unschooling? IMO any
and
all is educational, knowing other's views and ideas, whether we share those
same beliefs or not. >>
I don't want to run new unschoolers off. I know I responded the same way.
Newer homeschoolers/unschoolers often have a vision of schoolwork in their
heads, and they're hoping for an alternate way to get that small set of
knowledge (which probably seems big from their point of view, at first) into
their kids.
Older homechoolers realize that the "set of knowledge" is as much as can be
gathered from interaction, experience and discussion in the whole world, for
the rest of one's life.
So to the newer people here, since we're not talking about children and
math/English/science/history, we're not talking about unschooling. But we
ARE talking about history. Don't you expect people born in 1930 to be able
to tell you something about WWII? Our kids will be called on by their
grandkids to tell them what they remember about the war that began in their
childhoods. It won't be, I hope, "I don't remember anything except people
put flags on their cars and my mom kept singing 'God Bless America.'"
And we ARE talking English, and political science. How is a nation informed
and made supportive of a war? Why will soldiers happily go to war? Why will
the families back home happily accept it? There are motivations in
historical movements. "Why?" will lead to why when the kids are coming
across the history of Poland, of South Africa, of the Moors in medieval
Spain, of the Roman Empire.
The sooner a family cuts loose from the school model where kids learn certain
things and parents consider they are "through with school" and don't have to
learn, the sooner unschooling will actually work instead of just being a
model which isn't quite fitting the family.
Sandra
---------------------------------------------------------------------
and
all is educational, knowing other's views and ideas, whether we share those
same beliefs or not. >>
I don't want to run new unschoolers off. I know I responded the same way.
Newer homeschoolers/unschoolers often have a vision of schoolwork in their
heads, and they're hoping for an alternate way to get that small set of
knowledge (which probably seems big from their point of view, at first) into
their kids.
Older homechoolers realize that the "set of knowledge" is as much as can be
gathered from interaction, experience and discussion in the whole world, for
the rest of one's life.
So to the newer people here, since we're not talking about children and
math/English/science/history, we're not talking about unschooling. But we
ARE talking about history. Don't you expect people born in 1930 to be able
to tell you something about WWII? Our kids will be called on by their
grandkids to tell them what they remember about the war that began in their
childhoods. It won't be, I hope, "I don't remember anything except people
put flags on their cars and my mom kept singing 'God Bless America.'"
And we ARE talking English, and political science. How is a nation informed
and made supportive of a war? Why will soldiers happily go to war? Why will
the families back home happily accept it? There are motivations in
historical movements. "Why?" will lead to why when the kids are coming
across the history of Poland, of South Africa, of the Moors in medieval
Spain, of the Roman Empire.
The sooner a family cuts loose from the school model where kids learn certain
things and parents consider they are "through with school" and don't have to
learn, the sooner unschooling will actually work instead of just being a
model which isn't quite fitting the family.
Sandra
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Bronwen
Hi List!
I have been enjoying your posts for a while now since rejoining the list. My name is Bronwen and my husband and I have three children, dd 13, ds 9, ds 16 months. I wanted to comment on the baby feeding analogy:
Shelly wrote~~
"Unschooling" is like feeding a baby- when the BABY needs, how much the BABY needs-
"Schooling" is like feeding a baby- when the MOTHER wants to, how much the MOTHER wants
The difference lies in the locus of control- with unschooling, we give back our children something our society and culture steals- the right to govern one's self. The right to be one's self, to know one's self. With unschooling, we tell our children we trust them, we believe them-
We believe THEY know when they are hungry and full (weather it is for food, knowledge, affection, or anything)
Love,
Bronwen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I have been enjoying your posts for a while now since rejoining the list. My name is Bronwen and my husband and I have three children, dd 13, ds 9, ds 16 months. I wanted to comment on the baby feeding analogy:
Shelly wrote~~
> I am starting to see homeschooling/unschooling like feeding a baby. (I knowAH! I agree with you- but not the analogy. To me, a better analogy would be-
> strange but stick with me for a minute here) We either breast fed totally,
> bottle-fed totally or did a little of both. I am sure we have all seen heated
> arguments about this online and maybe even in a play group. But the most
> important thing was to get the child fed right? Be it by bottle or breast. Well
> I see it the same way. All I want is my children to be happy and and that hunger
> to learn fed. Be it by a small amount of structure like my 9 year old needs or
> total freedom like my 10 and 7 year olds thrive well in or a tad of both like
> my 13 year old.
"Unschooling" is like feeding a baby- when the BABY needs, how much the BABY needs-
"Schooling" is like feeding a baby- when the MOTHER wants to, how much the MOTHER wants
The difference lies in the locus of control- with unschooling, we give back our children something our society and culture steals- the right to govern one's self. The right to be one's self, to know one's self. With unschooling, we tell our children we trust them, we believe them-
We believe THEY know when they are hungry and full (weather it is for food, knowledge, affection, or anything)
Love,
Bronwen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Leslie Moyer
+ "Unschooling" is like feeding a baby- when the BABY needs, how
+ much the BABY needs-
+
+ "Schooling" is like feeding a baby- when the MOTHER wants to,
+ how much the MOTHER wants
+
+ The difference lies in the locus of control- with unschooling,
+ we give back our children something our society and culture
+ steals- the right to govern one's self. The right to be one's
+ self, to know one's self. With unschooling, we tell our
+ children we trust them, we believe them-
+
+ We believe THEY know when they are hungry and full (weather it
+ is for food, knowledge, affection, or anything)
Perfect, Bronwen!!!
+ much the BABY needs-
+
+ "Schooling" is like feeding a baby- when the MOTHER wants to,
+ how much the MOTHER wants
+
+ The difference lies in the locus of control- with unschooling,
+ we give back our children something our society and culture
+ steals- the right to govern one's self. The right to be one's
+ self, to know one's self. With unschooling, we tell our
+ children we trust them, we believe them-
+
+ We believe THEY know when they are hungry and full (weather it
+ is for food, knowledge, affection, or anything)
Perfect, Bronwen!!!
kalima
You know maybe I should have stated it that way. Oh well such is life. I was unable to fully breastfeed my first and had to give a bottle ,my other children all nursed to when they decided to wean (so I have been on both sides of the fence) and I have seen far to many women attacked on
this issue but it seems from the posts I am reading we attack each other on our methods of homeschooling and mothering.
Personally I as a woman, mother and wife am sick and tired of watching and listening to women attack each other on thier choices. I am tired of the close mindness. It is one thing to debate an issue you feel strongly in but to attack is just something I can't take. I know that I personally
would rather see women unite in their differences. We as the nurtures of society need to come together and support each other even if we don't agree. It doesnt mean life is all roses and peaches. But what I am seeing and feeling just doesnt work for a women who belives strongly in heart of
peace and unity in differences.
Thank you for allowing me to be part of this list but logging on to find email after email with people expressing hurt feelings and then seeing more unsupportive comments leads me to belive this is not the list for me. I will now unsubscribe.
Namaste,
Shelly
Mom to 5
CT
this issue but it seems from the posts I am reading we attack each other on our methods of homeschooling and mothering.
Personally I as a woman, mother and wife am sick and tired of watching and listening to women attack each other on thier choices. I am tired of the close mindness. It is one thing to debate an issue you feel strongly in but to attack is just something I can't take. I know that I personally
would rather see women unite in their differences. We as the nurtures of society need to come together and support each other even if we don't agree. It doesnt mean life is all roses and peaches. But what I am seeing and feeling just doesnt work for a women who belives strongly in heart of
peace and unity in differences.
Thank you for allowing me to be part of this list but logging on to find email after email with people expressing hurt feelings and then seeing more unsupportive comments leads me to belive this is not the list for me. I will now unsubscribe.
Namaste,
Shelly
Mom to 5
CT
Sarah Carothers
On Sat, 26 Jan 2002 11:08:11 -0500, kalima wrote:
<sigh> I hope you will come back again or maybe change your mind and stick around... this will all blow over soon if we ignore the ugliness and not respond to it. (as I have been doing :(
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/26/2002
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>I'm sorry to see you leave, Shelly. If you ever have the time, you might want to go back into these archives and you'll see for yourself that a few of us have tried over the last month or so to keep this list interesting yet not in attack mode. It worked for awhile but alas, some of the old list members have decided things need 'livening up' here. (we lack substance!)
>Thank you for allowing me to be part of this list but
>logging on to find email after email with people
>expressing hurt feelings and then seeing more
>unsupportive comments leads me to belive this is not
>the list for me. I will now unsubscribe.
>
>Namaste,
>
>Shelly
<sigh> I hope you will come back again or maybe change your mind and stick around... this will all blow over soon if we ignore the ugliness and not respond to it. (as I have been doing :(
--
Sarah Carothers, puddles@... on 01/26/2002
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 1/25/02 6:35:04 AM Dateline Standard Time,
felesina@... writes:
I really like that analogy! Welcome to the group!
Tammy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
felesina@... writes:
> "Unschooling" is like feeding a baby- when the BABY needs, how much theBronwen,
> BABY needs-
>
> "Schooling" is like feeding a baby- when the MOTHER wants to, how much
> the MOTHER wants
>
I really like that analogy! Welcome to the group!
Tammy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Julie Stauffer
<<He was simply using it as a synonym for what we now call homeschooling>>
I'm sorry but if you actually read what John Holt wrote he was most
certainly not describing "school-at-home". He wrote over and over about
providing interesting stuff and getting out of the kids' way. He frequently
admonished himself, in hindsight, for offering any suggestions to the kids
at all. Think of his examples of the little girl and the typewriter or the
kids and the cuisinaire rods.
I have read no examples by Holt where he wrote about parents requiring
anything. Perhaps you could point out some that I have missed.
Julie
I'm sorry but if you actually read what John Holt wrote he was most
certainly not describing "school-at-home". He wrote over and over about
providing interesting stuff and getting out of the kids' way. He frequently
admonished himself, in hindsight, for offering any suggestions to the kids
at all. Think of his examples of the little girl and the typewriter or the
kids and the cuisinaire rods.
I have read no examples by Holt where he wrote about parents requiring
anything. Perhaps you could point out some that I have missed.
Julie
Kolleen
>>He was simply using it as a synonym for what we now call homeschooling>>It is best to read this in its entirety:
>
http://www.homeschool.com/advisors/sheffer/default.asp#faq
Q: What is unschooling?
A: When the writer John Holt first used the word unschooling over twenty
years ago, he was simply using it as a synonym for what we now call
homeschooling -- that is, children learning at home rather than in
school. Back in those early days, there was no one word to describe the
phenomenon of children learning at home, and people spoke about it with a
variety of words and phrases.
Over time, the word unschooling has come to be associated with the
approach to homeschooling that John Holt wrote about: homeschooling
without following a packaged curriculum, homeschooling that follows the
child's interests, homeschooling with an emphasis on real-life activities
rather than worksheets, homeschooling in a way that doesn't make rigid
distinctions between schoolwork and the rest of life.
At Growing Without Schooling magazine, we don't see unschooling as a
rigidly defined concept or approach. It's certainly not something you
have to think of as a package. Our advice to anyone reading these
questions is that you don't have to think in terms of "being unschoolers"
or "doing unschooling." If any of the approaches described here appeal to
you, then by all means take the time to find out more, and adapt what you
read about so that it fits your family.
>Julie wrote:Please see the entire quote above.
>I'm sorry but if you actually read what John Holt wrote he was most
>certainly not describing "school-at-home". He wrote over and over about
>providing interesting stuff and getting out of the kids' way. He frequently
>admonished himself, in hindsight, for offering any suggestions to the kids
>at all. Think of his examples of the little girl and the typewriter or the
>kids and the cuisinaire rods.
>The issue of 'requiring' came up when someone suggested that if you
>I have read no examples by Holt where he wrote about parents requiring
>anything. Perhaps you could point out some that I have missed.
require anything of your children, then you are not unschooling,
including chores.
I suppose the burden of proof is to show where Holt suggested that people
should not require kids to do chores. Holt was never a parent, and
therefore this whole issue becomes quite a task to discuss.
Interesting fodder none-the-less
kolleen
"People take different roads seeking
fulfillment and happiness. Just
because they're not on your road
doesn't mean they've gotten lost."
-H. Jackson Brown, Jr.
[email protected]
<<The issue of 'requiring' came up when someone suggested that if you
require anything of your children, then you are not unschooling,
including chores.>>
AHA! Here is the key to the debate of two different issues which seems to
keep happening here!!
I don't think that's what I said. I was speaking of Academic requirements,
specifially journal writing being required. I never went on to say that
people who require chores are not unschooling. (If I am remembering
incorrectly, please show me how.) . If we are debating a persons opinion of
requirements (mine, since I was the original poster) and unschoolling,
let's at least know the opinion.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
require anything of your children, then you are not unschooling,
including chores.>>
AHA! Here is the key to the debate of two different issues which seems to
keep happening here!!
I don't think that's what I said. I was speaking of Academic requirements,
specifially journal writing being required. I never went on to say that
people who require chores are not unschooling. (If I am remembering
incorrectly, please show me how.) . If we are debating a persons opinion of
requirements (mine, since I was the original poster) and unschoolling,
let's at least know the opinion.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
Kolleen
>Elissa wrote:Yes Elissa! that was one of them.. and correct me if I'm wrong, Helen
>I don't think that's what I said. I was speaking of Academic requirements,
>specifially journal writing being required. I never went on to say that
>people who require chores are not unschooling. (If I am remembering
>incorrectly, please show me how.) . If we are debating a persons opinion of
>requirements (mine, since I was the original poster) and unschoolling,
>let's at least know the opinion.
also wrote her thoughts about what we require of our children. Which then
brought up the subject of chores, foods etc. This whole subject became a
wonderful work in progess as the ideas run rampart.
We're all thinking out loud about how we feel, some are putting them to
print for the first time and therefore solidifying their thoughts.
/highlight: Are we going to all agree that acadamia agenda falls under
unschooling? The agenda should be led by the child, and nobody else.
/end highlight
And what of anything beyond that? And what of chores, of food choices, of
vaccinations/anti-biotics, of TV, of sleeping arrangements? Are these
crossing lines?
Outside the realm of acadamia, becomes hazy.. and anyone that mentions
one things.. such as chores.. then another can expound upon that into
something else.. such as food choices.. which another can expound into
vaccinations.. You see how this can unraval into an ongoing saga?
There is enough research and proof on how bad vaccinations are for
children. The integrity of the components of the vaccinations themselves
(like thirmasol, formaldehyde etc). Can we say that the only person
requiring them is the parent? The child doesn't request this. And it
certainly isn't on their agenda. Their agenda is to be close to their
mother, breastfeed, sleep near their mother until they start branching
off into coming into themselves. Their agenda widens and
unschooling/unparenting parents follow along in support of their agendas.
Let me go out on a limb here and tell you more about how my son's body
decides what is best for him in the medical realm BEFORE a remedy is even
ingested. If his body agrees, then we use it. If not, we don't.
I do not make these choices. His body does. We use 'Functional Medicine'
by Helmut Schimmel. Here is a snippet to give you an idea:
http://www.oirf.com/refmat/funcmed.html
"What is Functional Medicine? Functional medicine is best explained by
contrasting it with conventional, clinical medicine. Conventional
medicine is preoccupied primarily with the morphologic changes in the
organs and tissues. These changes are assessed with appropriate
methodology leading to the diagnostic determination."
"In contrast, Functional Medicine endeavors to detect and recognize
energetic and regulatory disturbances that in medical terminology can
justly be labeled functional. Functional disturbances occur when a living
organism can no longer adequately compensate in response to irritants. A
functional, regulatory disturbance takes place. Functional disorders can
be detected early, from the very beginning of the pathological
processes. Such disturbances can also be evaluated later on, when the
morphological changes also manifest the disease as well."
also:
http://www.oirf.com/vega/vega.html
In 1978, Dr. Helmut Schimmel of West Germany originated the third major
system that was called the "VEGATEST-Method" or VRT (Vegetative Reflex
Test). Dr. Schimmel (widely known as the formulator of the 'Pascoe Nosode
Complexes') after working eight years within the limitations of BFD had
the ideal combination of qualifications for this task, being both a
medical and dental physician, as well as a true clinician-researcher. As
you know, BFD arose out of dissatisfaction with EAV, and so one could say
that the VEGATEST-Method is the culmination of some thirty years of
German Electro-Acupuncture development. Besides Germany itself, the
VEGATEST-Method has already caught on like wildfire in England and
Australia, and is now well established right here in North America."
"By placing samples of various substances a practitioner works with,
one-by-one into a special holder [honeycomb] connected to the diagnostic
instrument, the practitioner can evaluate which of the remedies will be
most effective for the patient - before their administration, and before
the patient leaves the office. Singularly or in combination, medications
can be tested not only for effectiveness, but also for tolerance, to
eliminate adverse side effects. This is termed medication testing. The
ability to test the biocompatibility of remedies prior to taking them,
plus its potential in food and allergy testing is, as one can well
imagine, what has primarily stirred up so much interest in German
Electro-Acupuncture techniques."
regards,
kolleen
rumpleteasermom
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., <ElissaJC@c...> wrote:
I just want to say that if I verbally jumped to that conclusion - that
you were saying that no requirements of any kind was an absolute
necessity to be considered an unschooler, I apologize.
I know in my head, I had you lumped into that category. Thank you for
clarifying.
Bridget
> I never went on to saythat
> people who require chores are not unschooling. (If I am rememberingopinion of
> incorrectly, please show me how.) . If we are debating a persons
> requirements (mine, since I was the original poster) andunschoolling,
> let's at least know the opinion.Elissa,
>
> ~Elissa Cleaveland
I just want to say that if I verbally jumped to that conclusion - that
you were saying that no requirements of any kind was an absolute
necessity to be considered an unschooler, I apologize.
I know in my head, I had you lumped into that category. Thank you for
clarifying.
Bridget
[email protected]
<<Elissa,
I just want to say that if I verbally jumped to that conclusion - that
you were saying that no requirements of any kind was an absolute
necessity to be considered an unschooler, I apologize.
I know in my head, I had you lumped into that category. Thank you for
clarifying.
Bridget>>
Thank you Bridget! I think we can learn from each other.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
I just want to say that if I verbally jumped to that conclusion - that
you were saying that no requirements of any kind was an absolute
necessity to be considered an unschooler, I apologize.
I know in my head, I had you lumped into that category. Thank you for
clarifying.
Bridget>>
Thank you Bridget! I think we can learn from each other.
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
Lara Nabours
Sorry to butt in-is this the same thing as energy medicine, Muscle Response Testing, BioSet Allergy Ellimination Treatments, etc? It sounds very similar to BioSet which my family has had great success with in treating our allergies in a noninvasive way...
And now back to our regular programming (debate? on unschooling) ;-)
Living Joyfully,
Lara Nabours
"We could learn a lot from crayons...some are sharp, some are dull, some are pretty, some have weird names, and they are all different colors, but they all have to learn to live in the same box."
kolleen wrote:
"By placing samples of various substances a practitioner works with,
one-by-one into a special holder [honeycomb] connected to the diagnostic
instrument, the practitioner can evaluate which of the remedies will be
most effective for the patient - before their administration, and before
the patient leaves the office. Singularly or in combination, medications
can be tested not only for effectiveness, but also for tolerance, to
eliminate adverse side effects. This is termed medication testing. The
ability to test the biocompatibility of remedies prior to taking them,
plus its potential in food and allergy testing is, as one can well
imagine, what has primarily stirred up so much interest in German
Electro-Acupuncture techniques."
regards,
kolleen
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And now back to our regular programming (debate? on unschooling) ;-)
Living Joyfully,
Lara Nabours
"We could learn a lot from crayons...some are sharp, some are dull, some are pretty, some have weird names, and they are all different colors, but they all have to learn to live in the same box."
kolleen wrote:
"By placing samples of various substances a practitioner works with,
one-by-one into a special holder [honeycomb] connected to the diagnostic
instrument, the practitioner can evaluate which of the remedies will be
most effective for the patient - before their administration, and before
the patient leaves the office. Singularly or in combination, medications
can be tested not only for effectiveness, but also for tolerance, to
eliminate adverse side effects. This is termed medication testing. The
ability to test the biocompatibility of remedies prior to taking them,
plus its potential in food and allergy testing is, as one can well
imagine, what has primarily stirred up so much interest in German
Electro-Acupuncture techniques."
regards,
kolleen
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
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Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Josefa Wilson
How far do we push not requiring before we consider ourselves unschoolers? It is a much
easier issue for parents of wee ones than it is for those of us who have older children.
For example, if an older child decided to take music lessons, which we pay for. What if
this child does not want to go consistently? Do we let them skip lessons or do we
"require" that they meet this obligation of theirs?
Josefa
ElissaJC@... wrote:
Come Grow With Us at the Learning Garden
http://learning_garden.tripod.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
easier issue for parents of wee ones than it is for those of us who have older children.
For example, if an older child decided to take music lessons, which we pay for. What if
this child does not want to go consistently? Do we let them skip lessons or do we
"require" that they meet this obligation of theirs?
Josefa
ElissaJC@... wrote:
> <<The issue of 'requiring' came up when someone suggested that if you--
> require anything of your children, then you are not unschooling,
> including chores.>>
>
> AHA! Here is the key to the debate of two different issues which seems to
> keep happening here!!
> I don't think that's what I said. I was speaking of Academic requirements,
> specifially journal writing being required. I never went on to say that
> people who require chores are not unschooling. (If I am remembering
> incorrectly, please show me how.) . If we are debating a persons opinion of
> requirements (mine, since I was the original poster) and unschoolling,
> let's at least know the opinion.
>
> ~Elissa Cleaveland
> "It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
> have
> not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Come Grow With Us at the Learning Garden
http://learning_garden.tripod.com/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Josefa Wilson
ElissaJC@... wrote:
not differentiate learning in life from learning in general (please forgive the wording,
but I hope you know what I mean). We say that we want our children to learn in a natural
setting and environment -- learning as part of life. BUT if we also say that part of
unschooling is that we DO NOT require our children to do anything academic unless they
want to (thus child centered learning), BUT we also say that in non-academic realms
requirement is okay (i.e. chores, food, medical care), are the then not separating life
and learning?
Josefa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> AHA! Here is the key to the debate of two different issues which seems toThis is a very interesting point here! One of the main points of unschooling is that we do
> keep happening here!!
> I don't think that's what I said. I was speaking of Academic requirements,
> specifially journal writing being required. I never went on to say that
> people who require chores are not unschooling. (If I am remembering
> incorrectly, please show me how.) . If we are debating a persons opinion of
> requirements (mine, since I was the original poster) and unschoolling,
> let's at least know the opinion.
not differentiate learning in life from learning in general (please forgive the wording,
but I hope you know what I mean). We say that we want our children to learn in a natural
setting and environment -- learning as part of life. BUT if we also say that part of
unschooling is that we DO NOT require our children to do anything academic unless they
want to (thus child centered learning), BUT we also say that in non-academic realms
requirement is okay (i.e. chores, food, medical care), are the then not separating life
and learning?
Josefa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Fetteroll
on 3/19/02 10:32 AM, Josefa Wilson at learning_garden1@... wrote:
fun?
And is the purpose of lessons to progress or have a positive experience with
an instrument?
Perhaps if a child is skipping lessons a lot but still doesn't want to quit
you could set up a deal where you drop in for lessons when he feels like he
needs one and whenever the teacher has some free time.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What if this child does not want to go consistently? Do we let them skipHow much would you want your husband to push you if you took a class for
> lessons or do we "require" that they meet this obligation of theirs?
fun?
And is the purpose of lessons to progress or have a positive experience with
an instrument?
Perhaps if a child is skipping lessons a lot but still doesn't want to quit
you could set up a deal where you drop in for lessons when he feels like he
needs one and whenever the teacher has some free time.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
BUT if we also say that part of
unschooling is that we DO NOT require our children to do anything academic
unless they
want to (thus child centered learning), BUT we also say that in non-academic
realms
requirement is okay (i.e. chores, food, medical care), are the then not
separating life
and learning?
Josefa
In my home, it isn't separated, requirements are requirements, and they
don't have place in our lives. This is not something we have done always,
for a long time, I didn't know that it was ok to give my children choices.
To respect them as another human being was bizarre, I was raised as most of
us were to believe that children needed direction and rules
and classes. The opposite is what we need.
I take a little from the TCS people, I ask myself, "Would I ask this of
another adult?" If the answer is no, how can I ask it of a child?
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
unschooling is that we DO NOT require our children to do anything academic
unless they
want to (thus child centered learning), BUT we also say that in non-academic
realms
requirement is okay (i.e. chores, food, medical care), are the then not
separating life
and learning?
Josefa
In my home, it isn't separated, requirements are requirements, and they
don't have place in our lives. This is not something we have done always,
for a long time, I didn't know that it was ok to give my children choices.
To respect them as another human being was bizarre, I was raised as most of
us were to believe that children needed direction and rules
and classes. The opposite is what we need.
I take a little from the TCS people, I ask myself, "Would I ask this of
another adult?" If the answer is no, how can I ask it of a child?
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein
zenmomma *
>>How far do we push not requiring before we consider ourselves unschoolers?this child does not want to go consistently? Do we let them skip lessons or
>>It is a much easier issue for parents of wee ones than it is for those of
>>us who have older children. For example, if an older child decided to take
>>music lessons, which we pay for. What if
do we "require" that they meet this obligation of theirs?>>
I think every experience is a valuable learning opportunity. So when Conor
wanted to take piano, I found a means for him to do so. When he started to
tire of it, I let him drop it. I didn't consider the money wasted. He got
out of the classes what he needed/wanted at the time and decided to move on.
I never really thought about in terms of piano lessons = he will absolutely
learn to play the piano. I viewed it more as an exploration. And since I
didn't sour the experience for him, I quite often find him at the keyboards
playing around with music.
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
Lara Nabours
Seek out pay by month or as you go lessons? IT is a learning experience ... the person can't possibly know if they are going to enjoy something until they've tried it...I do not think they should be punished (coerced into going when they no longer want to) after deciding something is not for them. What do you mean by *obligation?* Perhaps the person didn't really want *lessons* and just wanted to have an instrument, be with others, who knows? Now the lessons are no longer meeting the need. Talk to the person and find out what they want to do or not do...
Living Joyfully,
Lara Nabours
"We could learn a lot from crayons...some are sharp, some are dull, some are pretty, some have weird names, and they are all different colors, but they all have to learn to live in the same box."
-----Original Message-----
From: Josefa Wilson [mailto:learning_garden1@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling
How far do we push not requiring before we consider ourselves unschoolers? It is a much
easier issue for parents of wee ones than it is for those of us who have older children.
For example, if an older child decided to take music lessons, which we pay for. What if
this child does not want to go consistently? Do we let them skip lessons or do we
"require" that they meet this obligation of theirs?
Josefa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Living Joyfully,
Lara Nabours
"We could learn a lot from crayons...some are sharp, some are dull, some are pretty, some have weird names, and they are all different colors, but they all have to learn to live in the same box."
-----Original Message-----
From: Josefa Wilson [mailto:learning_garden1@...]
Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling
How far do we push not requiring before we consider ourselves unschoolers? It is a much
easier issue for parents of wee ones than it is for those of us who have older children.
For example, if an older child decided to take music lessons, which we pay for. What if
this child does not want to go consistently? Do we let them skip lessons or do we
"require" that they meet this obligation of theirs?
Josefa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tia Leschke
>I think the question was more about the child missing lessons rather than
>
>I think every experience is a valuable learning opportunity. So when Conor
>wanted to take piano, I found a means for him to do so. When he started to
>tire of it, I let him drop it. I didn't consider the money wasted. He got
>out of the classes what he needed/wanted at the time and decided to move on.
>I never really thought about in terms of piano lessons = he will absolutely
>learn to play the piano. I viewed it more as an exploration. And since I
>didn't sour the experience for him, I quite often find him at the keyboards
>playing around with music.
about quitting. I certainly understand not wanting to pay for something
that isn't being utilized, like the lessons. I think I might talk with the
teacher about ways the lessons could change to accomodate the child's
learning style, which *might* make the lessons more fun. If that didn't
help, I might try the "drop-in" idea. Or I might want the child to make
some contribution to the lessons, so that missed lessons will be costing
the child as well as me. Of course if the child wanted to quit the
lessons, I'd go along with that.
Tia
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
Buttons
Elissa,
I believe you said "if you require X" (X = anything) that we're not
unschooling. You did not specify what "X" was, the assumption would be that
you were speaking of the chores required. In addition to that there was the
situation of different people applying different definitions to the same
word (i.e. "require", unschooling and so on). It just became a little
bickerfest over semantics and some new people to the list just want to do
is leave because it's a waste of time and energy.
To everyone in general,
Difference of opinion can be spoken/written in ways so as not to offend,
that's why we have :-) (emoticons). You can always ask for clarification
if you're not sure what someone means rather than assuming the worst about
them.
Buttons
Please bear with me while I play newsgroup catch-up :-)
I believe you said "if you require X" (X = anything) that we're not
unschooling. You did not specify what "X" was, the assumption would be that
you were speaking of the chores required. In addition to that there was the
situation of different people applying different definitions to the same
word (i.e. "require", unschooling and so on). It just became a little
bickerfest over semantics and some new people to the list just want to do
is leave because it's a waste of time and energy.
To everyone in general,
Difference of opinion can be spoken/written in ways so as not to offend,
that's why we have :-) (emoticons). You can always ask for clarification
if you're not sure what someone means rather than assuming the worst about
them.
Buttons
Please bear with me while I play newsgroup catch-up :-)
----- Original Message -----
From: <ElissaJC@...>
> I don't think that's what I said. I was speaking of Academic
requirements,
> specifially journal writing being required. I never went on to say that
> people who require chores are not unschooling. (If I am remembering
> incorrectly, please show me how.) . If we are debating a persons opinion
of
> requirements (mine, since I was the original poster) and unschoolling,
> let's at least know the opinion.
zenmomma *
>>To everyone in general,Difference of opinion can be spoken/written in ways so as not to offend,
that's why we have :-) (emoticons). You can always ask for clarification if
you're not sure what someone means rather than assuming the worst about
them.>>
Okay, as the reigning Queen of Emoticonia ;-) I would have to agree with
this sentiment wholeheartedly. :-) I would also add the suggestion of trying
to respond to ideas rather than specific posters. :-o It's hard not to take
something personally when your name is right there. :-P Just a thought. :o)
Life is good.
~Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 3/20/02 6:42:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
buttonsr@... writes:
<< Difference of opinion can be spoken/written in ways so as not to offend, >>
And also, people can choose to not get offended. We always have a choice as
to how we show up in situations. Words really hold no power over us. . .they
cannot make us feel anything, we choose that. Of course, that is my opinion.
Living in Abundance
Mary
buttonsr@... writes:
<< Difference of opinion can be spoken/written in ways so as not to offend, >>
And also, people can choose to not get offended. We always have a choice as
to how we show up in situations. Words really hold no power over us. . .they
cannot make us feel anything, we choose that. Of course, that is my opinion.
Living in Abundance
Mary
Cindy
lite2yu@... wrote:
seen posted here at times. The "but you're not an unschooler because you
_fill_in_the_blank_" posts are hard to shrug off - I know I've been
there since I <gasp!> use a charter school. Sometimes I can walk away
and other times I can't. One day early in my homeschooling days I was
called a homeschooling wannabe by someone listed as a resource for
homeschooling young children - I don't want to be around that woman
to this day 4 years later. If she hadn't volunteered to be a resource
it would have been rude - but to volunteer for a group as a resource for
younger children and then to be that way is inexcusably rude! (From my
early days on-line - back before the WWW stuff - wannabe was a very
derogatory term.) What you write and what you say make lasting impressions.
I think the best we can hope for is a reasoned, considered response when
someone gets offended.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
>It takes a truly enlightened person to not get offended from what I've
> In a message dated 3/20/02 6:42:19 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> buttonsr@... writes:
>
> << Difference of opinion can be spoken/written in ways so as not to offend, >>
>
> And also, people can choose to not get offended. We always have a choice as
> to how we show up in situations. Words really hold no power over us. . .they
> cannot make us feel anything, we choose that. Of course, that is my opinion.
>
seen posted here at times. The "but you're not an unschooler because you
_fill_in_the_blank_" posts are hard to shrug off - I know I've been
there since I <gasp!> use a charter school. Sometimes I can walk away
and other times I can't. One day early in my homeschooling days I was
called a homeschooling wannabe by someone listed as a resource for
homeschooling young children - I don't want to be around that woman
to this day 4 years later. If she hadn't volunteered to be a resource
it would have been rude - but to volunteer for a group as a resource for
younger children and then to be that way is inexcusably rude! (From my
early days on-line - back before the WWW stuff - wannabe was a very
derogatory term.) What you write and what you say make lasting impressions.
I think the best we can hope for is a reasoned, considered response when
someone gets offended.
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Buttons
From: <lite2yu@...>
:> buttonsr@... writes:
So basically you're saying "sticks and stones...."?
I respectfully disagree, I believe words *can* be harmful.
Buttons
:> buttonsr@... writes:
>offend, >>
> << Difference of opinion can be spoken/written in ways so as not to
>as
> And also, people can choose to not get offended. We always have a choice
> to how we show up in situations. Words really hold no power over us. ..they
> cannot make us feel anything, we choose that. Of course, that is myopinion.
So basically you're saying "sticks and stones...."?
I respectfully disagree, I believe words *can* be harmful.
Buttons