[email protected]

I've just sufted through four HUNDRED and some messages. See this was my
obsession and now that I've started to wane off a bit, I can't keep up.

I read the eureka moments and wanted to share.

Recently my huge debate with tv was the turning point for me and my son.
Thanks so much for everyone on here and the website for sharing their lives
and stories. And while I've gotten too irked to read many of her messages, I
understand where Bridgett is coming from. It's (hopefully) the last great
stance. For me it's sort of like peeling layers, and frightfully hanging onto
that last one...afraid of what's *really* underneath.

I think right now the biggest factors for me are, treating my son as I would
a friend or spouse and believing to the core that he is already a great
person and that I don't need to, nor would be able to, mold him into being
one. And that sort of allows everything else to fall into place. And, as
someone on the website suggested, I'm letting him show me the way. It's
really cool! And while he's only 3, I have more thoroughly enjoyed our
relationship in just the last couple weeks. And he has too, he's opened up
more, offered to help me with different things, etc. And he's a very verbal
articulate child, has been for awhile, and we're talking a lot more. I've
always wished he'd just play more freely and I've seen him do that more
lately.

I have related to the fears of, if I don't step in.....then what? How will he
learn to control himself, care for others, feed himself, etc. And they
ultimately all come from the belief that my son is somehow bad, less, wrong,
etc. and needs to be taught how to be good, more, right, etc.

And a couple of weeks ago I would have thoroughly believed that my son had an
addiction to the tv, or was more prone to addiction, blah blah blah. But I
don't feel that way now. I'm not doubting that there are people out there
with it born in, but I've known a *lot* of addicts, myself one, and I've
never known one that didn't have a traumatic childhood and used addiction as
self medication.

My issue now is extending this past just my son and I. Like being around
other parents and families who are thoroughly opposite this philosophy. I
think it's a personal issue of mine, not wanting conflict or criticism.

Anyway, just wanted to share....I think I *get it* now and I wanted to thank
everyone here, and I'm sure my son thanks you too!

Brenda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/10/2001 9:42:42 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
brendaclaspell@... writes:


> I think right now the biggest factors for me are, treating my son as I would
> a friend or spouse and believing to the core that he is already a great
> person and that I don't need to, nor would be able to, mold him into being
> one. And that sort of allows everything else to fall into place


Thank you so much for sharing this!!!!
Kimberly U


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/2001 12:42:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
brendaclaspell@... writes:


> My issue now is extending this past just my son and I. Like being around
> other parents and families who are thoroughly opposite this philosophy. I
> think it's a personal issue of mine, not wanting conflict or criticism.
>
>

This is an interesting issue. . . how do you all handle those situations?
Especially with family who are probably not following the unschooling life
and want to "correct" your children or treat them in a manner you find
disrespectful. . . what do you say. . . how do you handle it. . . does it
depend on what age the child is as to what you say? I am really interested in
this one.

lovemary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bridget E Coffman

On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 00:40:10 EDT brendaclaspell@... writes:
>
>
> And a couple of weeks ago I would have thoroughly believed that my son
had an
> addiction to the tv, or was more prone to addiction, blah blah blah.
But I
> don't feel that way now. I'm not doubting that there are people out
there
> with it born in, but I've known a *lot* of addicts, myself one, and
I've
> never known one that didn't have a traumatic childhood and used
addiction as
> self medication.
>

I know LOTS of addicts. Most of them are relatives. Some are recovering
alcoholics, some are heavy smokers, some can't live without coca-cola. A
few are hooked on gambling. There is a sexually addicted memebr. I've
seen addiction, and compuslsive behavior in lots of different forms. Did
we all have bad childhoods? Nope, on the contrary, we all had very
pleasant happy ones for the most part.
On the other had, I've had people tell me they or their children are
addictive and just can't help themselves who were using it for an excuse.
I'd watch them suddenly change their tunes when the time was right for
them to. And suddenly, they are all better. No more struggles, no more
cravings, etc. It doesn't work that way.
I truly believe that there is a genectic connection between addiction,
obsessive-compulsive disorder, bi-polar and depressive disorders and
allergies. I think these things are all connected in ways we don't yet
comprehend.
Anyway, I'm glad that your son is normal. But the next time you have to
put a band-aid on his arm, give him an extra hug and be glad the band-aid
is because he fell down and not because he picked himself open for the
third time today.

Bridget






~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/10/01 10:43:03 PM, brendaclaspell@... writes:

<< And while he's only 3, I have more thoroughly enjoyed our
relationship in just the last couple weeks. And he has too, he's opened up
more, offered to help me with different things, etc. And he's a very verbal
articulate child, has been for awhile, and we're talking a lot more. I've
always wished he'd just play more freely and I've seen him do that more
lately. >>

Brenda,
I read your post twice and saved it with my small set of favorites.

For others who may not be to that point with their kids yet, here's an
analogy not involving Satan or Teletubbies:

The same way a school curriculum tries to promise happiness and completion
(learn this, forget about anything else, and you'll be happy and successful),
so the "child raising" lists can seem that way. Make sure your kid has table
manners, can share, says please and thank you, picks socks and towels up,
makes his bed (add your own favorite other six things), and you've done your
job as a mom! TaDaa!! He's ready to go out into the world and have a
power-lunch at the Hilton!

But there are hundreds of thousands of things to learn about behavior and
interactions and homes and yards and we don't know which will be the most
important or which will present themselves. Mildew prevention can be way
more fascinating than shirt-folding, and could lead to a lifelong fascination
with biochemistry or architectural engineering.

Treating a child as a young human who lives in our house instead of "our kid"
or "a five year old" or any other designation that comes with all kinds of
pre-conceived behavioral notions closes more doors than it opens. Seeing the
child as an honored guest who will stay with you untl he chooses to leave
opens all the doors in the universe.

I read once somewhere (I though it was Polly Berends, but I could never find
the quote) that we should treat each child as though he were the Messiah. I
said that once on a list or in a forum with a lot of Christian homeschoolers
(it was several years back before there was much separation) and one mom
snapped back very defensively "TRUST ME, my kid is NOT the second coming."
I felt really bad for her child.

There are other religions that also suggest treating children like gods,
seeing the godliness in them. And in fact Christianity does too. But
that's not the verse most families choose to keep in mind when they deal with
their children.

Jesus made a pretty good threat about people who mistreat children, but I
don't hear it quoted in homeschooling forums. And the whole "When did we see
you hungry and feed you, or naked and clothed you?" passage *should* apply to
children, but it's rarely made to do so. People use it to promote visiting
sick people in hospitals and charity to prisoners, but they forget to turn
around and treat those children who are tugging at their clothes as the
representatives of Christ.

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Diane

Wow! What a great post!

> I read once somewhere (I though it was Polly Berends, but I could never find
> the quote) that we should treat each child as though he were the Messiah. I
> said that once on a list or in a forum with a lot of Christian homeschoolers
> (it was several years back before there was much separation) and one mom
> snapped back very defensively "TRUST ME, my kid is NOT the second coming."
> I felt really bad for her child.

We can hope this mom was just having a bad day, and would be able to see the
deity in her child another day.

:-) Diane

Bonni Sollars

Sandra, thank you for your beautiful words. I have, as a result of this
unschooling list, even with all the arguments going on lately, decided to
throw out my chore cards. When they were undone, I felt like I had
failed and like I should be more in control of things. When I thought
about it, I realized it was an obsessive attempt at gaining control of a
situation which wasn't even out of control in the first place. It was as
a result of someone's advice years ago to my husband, who has a problem
with the house due to his dysfunctional childhood. So, my kids and I
have discussed it and have decided that we will all work together on the
house and will just keep a look-out for things that need to be done. We
have also decided to give up the program of schooling we had been doing
and to just have the books and games available and that I am available
should anyone want assistance with them. This is really a daring step
for me, since I am a rather insecure person. But I have felt for some
time that God wanted me to learn about all this unschooling business
since I kept coming upon it "accidentally". The unschooling ideals have
also helped me in other areas of my life like bills and working and
scheduling everything. I knew I had control issues, because I kept
getting scared or mad about things and wondering why and I could only
come to the conclusion that I felt out of control. Now I am giving
myself permission to be out of control. Thank you again.
Bonni

Johanna SanInocencio

My children are children of God, and joint heirs with Christ. I think you
have an awesome idea. You are not saying to worship our children but to have
the heart to treat our children with love, respect and compassion as
extermely valuable human beings. Am I correct?
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 10:09 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] My own AH HA!


>
> In a message dated 9/10/01 10:43:03 PM, brendaclaspell@... writes:
>
> << And while he's only 3, I have more thoroughly enjoyed our
> relationship in just the last couple weeks. And he has too, he's opened up
> more, offered to help me with different things, etc. And he's a very
verbal
> articulate child, has been for awhile, and we're talking a lot more. I've
> always wished he'd just play more freely and I've seen him do that more
> lately. >>
>
> Brenda,
> I read your post twice and saved it with my small set of favorites.
>
> For others who may not be to that point with their kids yet, here's an
> analogy not involving Satan or Teletubbies:
>
> The same way a school curriculum tries to promise happiness and completion
> (learn this, forget about anything else, and you'll be happy and
successful),
> so the "child raising" lists can seem that way. Make sure your kid has
table
> manners, can share, says please and thank you, picks socks and towels up,
> makes his bed (add your own favorite other six things), and you've done
your
> job as a mom! TaDaa!! He's ready to go out into the world and have a
> power-lunch at the Hilton!
>
> But there are hundreds of thousands of things to learn about behavior and
> interactions and homes and yards and we don't know which will be the most
> important or which will present themselves. Mildew prevention can be way
> more fascinating than shirt-folding, and could lead to a lifelong
fascination
> with biochemistry or architectural engineering.
>
> Treating a child as a young human who lives in our house instead of "our
kid"
> or "a five year old" or any other designation that comes with all kinds of
> pre-conceived behavioral notions closes more doors than it opens. Seeing
the
> child as an honored guest who will stay with you untl he chooses to leave
> opens all the doors in the universe.
>
> I read once somewhere (I though it was Polly Berends, but I could never
find
> the quote) that we should treat each child as though he were the Messiah.
I
> said that once on a list or in a forum with a lot of Christian
homeschoolers
> (it was several years back before there was much separation) and one mom
> snapped back very defensively "TRUST ME, my kid is NOT the second coming."
> I felt really bad for her child.
>
> There are other religions that also suggest treating children like gods,
> seeing the godliness in them. And in fact Christianity does too. But
> that's not the verse most families choose to keep in mind when they deal
with
> their children.
>
> Jesus made a pretty good threat about people who mistreat children, but I
> don't hear it quoted in homeschooling forums. And the whole "When did we
see
> you hungry and feed you, or naked and clothed you?" passage *should* apply
to
> children, but it's rarely made to do so. People use it to promote
visiting
> sick people in hospitals and charity to prisoners, but they forget to turn
> around and treat those children who are tugging at their clothes as the
> representatives of Christ.
>
> Sandra
>
> "Everything counts."
> http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
> http://expage.com/SandraDodd
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/01 7:51:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> Anyway, I'm glad that your son is normal. But the next time you have to
> put a band-aid on his arm, give him an extra hug and be glad the band-aid
> is because he fell down and not because he picked himself open for the
> third time today.
>

My son is not normal, and neither am I. I no longer believe in normal. And I
really didn't even get the rest of this.

I really don't wish to be rude but I usually lack tact and I feel the need to
be blunt here. If most of your relatives are addicts, then it's a family
illness and it most likely stemmed from all of your upbringings. If you have
children on prozac and an entire history of family addiction, the tv is not
the problem. Find some serious 12 step groups and counseling. I know, I know,
I'm judging you without knowing you. But so far most everything you've
described fits right in with the codependent format, imo.

I also had an injury that kept me on my back for a time and I was so grateful
that my son could watch tv, which he did a lot then. One because we never had
cable and suddenly we did and two because quite possibly it was his own
little escape from all the emotional problems he had. I was flat on my back
and couldn't get up hardly at all. It never occurred to me that he was using
tv to help him through his own emotional struggles until someone in this
forum suggested it to me. And there have been other family problems...and I
now think his current use of tv is from the emotional stuff that I thought
should be over by now. But by turning my complete focus onto him and joining
what he is doing, completely, I see it from a completely different angle. So
consider that maybe he isn't addicted, but he's using it to comfort him from
the uncontrollable pains of his life outside the tv.

Brenda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/01 3:21:40 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
saninocencio@... writes:


> My children are children of God, and joint heirs with Christ. I think you
> have an awesome idea. You are not saying to worship our children but to have
> the heart to treat our children with love, respect and compassion as
> extermely valuable human beings. Am I correct?
> Johanna
>

Well, I'm not at all Christian, but just considering the way I relate to my
son compared to another adult. With love, respect and compassion completely.
He is a smaller human than me, but no less of one. And while I'm not
Christian, I love the thought of treating everyone like a/the messiah...not
just kids or babies or elderly or saintly.

Brenda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

Well, since bluntness is the rule of the day, here goes. Are you a medical
professional? Have you ever worked with psych disabilities? You shouldn't
make judgements without some basis in fact to back them up. It is now known
that addictions run in families because many of them are genetic not the old
oft repeated "it must be someone's fault in your history."

They now can identify using certain DNA chains families with the
predisposition to alcoholism. With more research they will be able to
identify with certainty if a child is "normally" obsessive or if they are
developing OCD.

It is really too bad that folks can't "get" that there is a difference
between "normal" addictions that can be laughed off (Hello, my name is
Lynda, I am a bookoholic) and psychological/emotional disorders that are
addictions and take a life long effort to overcome, hopefully, and at a
minimum learn to live around.

Geez, everyone's an expert because they read some article somewhere. How
about "walk a mile" instead.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <brendaclaspell@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] My own AH HA!


> In a message dated 9/11/01 7:51:09 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>
>
> > Anyway, I'm glad that your son is normal. But the next time you have to
> > put a band-aid on his arm, give him an extra hug and be glad the
band-aid
> > is because he fell down and not because he picked himself open for the
> > third time today.
> >
>
> My son is not normal, and neither am I. I no longer believe in normal. And
I
> really didn't even get the rest of this.
>
> I really don't wish to be rude but I usually lack tact and I feel the need
to
> be blunt here. If most of your relatives are addicts, then it's a family
> illness and it most likely stemmed from all of your upbringings. If you
have
> children on prozac and an entire history of family addiction, the tv is
not
> the problem. Find some serious 12 step groups and counseling. I know, I
know,
> I'm judging you without knowing you. But so far most everything you've
> described fits right in with the codependent format, imo.
>
> I also had an injury that kept me on my back for a time and I was so
grateful
> that my son could watch tv, which he did a lot then. One because we never
had
> cable and suddenly we did and two because quite possibly it was his own
> little escape from all the emotional problems he had. I was flat on my
back
> and couldn't get up hardly at all. It never occurred to me that he was
using
> tv to help him through his own emotional struggles until someone in this
> forum suggested it to me. And there have been other family problems...and
I
> now think his current use of tv is from the emotional stuff that I thought
> should be over by now. But by turning my complete focus onto him and
joining
> what he is doing, completely, I see it from a completely different angle.
So
> consider that maybe he isn't addicted, but he's using it to comfort him
from
> the uncontrollable pains of his life outside the tv.
>
> Brenda
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Bridget E Coffman

Lynda,

I just wanted to thank you for this post. I am a bit drained at the
moment. What with an exchange student who needed to call home and
reassure his parents and my three kids, and two of their friends all here
tonight watching the coverage and discussing. Five teens just basically
need me so I am just a bit too busy to think enough to respond to it
clearly. Heck, it was just a fluke that I saw this post.
So, are the people on this list always that 'compassionate'?

Bridget


On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 17:11:21 -0700 "Lynda" <lurine@...> writes:
> Well, since bluntness is the rule of the day, here goes. Are you a
medical
> professional? Have you ever worked with psych disabilities? You
shouldn't
> make judgements without some basis in fact to back them up. It is now
known
> that addictions run in families because many of them are genetic not
the old
> oft repeated "it must be someone's fault in your history."
>
> They now can identify using certain DNA chains families with the
> predisposition to alcoholism. With more research they will be able to
> identify with certainty if a child is "normally" obsessive or if they
are
> developing OCD.
>
> It is really too bad that folks can't "get" that there is a difference
> between "normal" addictions that can be laughed off (Hello, my name is
> Lynda, I am a bookoholic) and psychological/emotional disorders that
are
> addictions and take a life long effort to overcome, hopefully, and at
a
> minimum learn to live around.
>
> Geez, everyone's an expert because they read some article somewhere.
How
> about "walk a mile" instead.
>
> Lynda

~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/01 6:26:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
lurine@... writes:


> It is really too bad that folks can't "get" that there is a difference
> between "normal" addictions that can be laughed off (Hello, my name is
> Lynda, I am a bookoholic) and psychological/emotional disorders that are
> addictions and take a life long effort to overcome, hopefully, and at a
> minimum learn to live around.
>

Just because there's a difference doesn't mean everytime a mom wants to say
"my kid is an addict and so..." that she's right.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

This is very true but we weren't talking about "everytime A mom *wants* to
say," we were speaking about a specific mom who said, not wants to say. Now
since you are not a medical professional nor do you "walk in her shoes" you
are not in a position to say otherwise.

I, on the other hand, have worked in the rehab field, both physical and
acute psych and I can tell you that the description matches low level OCD
and addictive personality traits. So, since the descriptions match I
haven't felt a need to question the diagnosis.

You on the other hand have questioned the diagnosis and her parenting
abilities from day one even though your expertise would seem to be English
and teaching neither of which makes you qualified to judge.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] My own AH HA!


> In a message dated 9/11/01 6:26:18 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
> lurine@... writes:
>
>
> > It is really too bad that folks can't "get" that there is a difference
> > between "normal" addictions that can be laughed off (Hello, my name is
> > Lynda, I am a bookoholic) and psychological/emotional disorders that are
> > addictions and take a life long effort to overcome, hopefully, and at a
> > minimum learn to live around.
> >
>
> Just because there's a difference doesn't mean everytime a mom wants to
say
> "my kid is an addict and so..." that she's right.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/12/2001 12:26:00 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
lurine@... writes:


> Geez, everyone's an expert because they read some article somewhere. How
> about "walk a mile" instead.
>
>

And even then you're only an expert in your own situation. Figuring stuff
out for others has many pitfalls.

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Samantha Stopple

When I became a parent I thought it was a doing to
rather than a providing for. Even providing for
doesn't really descibe what I mean because some of
parenting has become a striving to be available. My
growth has lead me down the unschooling path which I
originally saw as giving as a gift to my children. (as
if they needed to learn how to learn) Now I see
unschooling is the way that allows children to *be*
the learning people they are.

I have had an even greater AH AH momment when I
decided to re-read Whole Child/Whole Parent by Polly
Berends. I had tried to read it a few years ago but I
was still in a need to what I see know as fix my
spirited dd rather than help her/ support her. When I
read some of her words I had an immediate falling away
of tension and awareness of what *I* needed to do so
my very spirited dd could be *allowed* to be who she
*already is* a loving, learning, brite, etc...child.

When I shared with Dh about this thread and seeing our
children as the Messiah. He said ooh that makes a lot
of sense. Just think his mother believed he was the
son of God. So when she looked at him she saw the son
of God. So she always saw good. So how could Jesus
help but become good. So it has become very important
to me to see the true pure child even when her
behavior does not seem in accordance with that. That
upset/negative behavior is only an aberation or an
indication of some unmet need.

Peace,
Samantha



__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/01 11:51:09 PM, lurine@... writes:

<< You on the other hand have questioned the diagnosis and her parenting
abilities from day one even though your expertise would seem to be English
and teaching neither of which makes you qualified to judge. >>

My mom's an alcoholic and I'm familiar (not from personal choice, but there
life is) with the genetics and treatment methods and self-help programs, but
darn! Getting that English degree cancelled out all other things in my life.


Good old school and its certificates. Since I went to school, others can
TELL me what I know now!

Even if I'd never met an addict in my life, this statement remains true:

> Just because there's a difference doesn't mean everytime a mom wants to
say
> "my kid is an addict and so..." that she's right.

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Bridget E Coffman

Hey Lynda,

Let it go. She has obviously made up her mind and nothing you or I says
is going to change it. So for the sake of the rest of the list just let
her live in her own little world about me. I truly don't care today.

Bridget


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 10:00:51 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
>
> I
>
> > Just because there's a difference doesn't mean everytime a mom
> wants to
> say
> > "my kid is an addict and so..." that she's right.
>
> Sandra
~~~~~~~~~~~~ F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If electricity comes from electrons . . .
. . . does that mean that morality comes from morons?

[email protected]

> And even then you're only an expert in your own situation. Figuring stuff
> out for others has many pitfalls.
>

Not helping others figure stuff out means no La Leche League, no Alcoholics
(or anyone else) anonymous, no other help groups, no useful online forums or
discussions of any kind. If we're all experts in our own situations, why
aren't all our kids in school?

VERY few families (if any) discovered/moved to homeschooling on their own,
without looking over the shoulders of other families who left before they
did. And how many homeschoolers would go to unschooling with no examples, no
theory, no justifications?

How many parents would have stopped spanking without help and the example of
other families which had stopped?

How many families would allow their kids to choose foods without seeing other
families do it successfully?

If we're not to offer suggestions or critique the problematic situations
other parents report, why does unschooling.com exist?

People come here and ask questions, or offer ideas, and if we refuse to
answer questions or accept all ideas equally, there will be very little help
or learning taking place, it will be just a big dump ground of ideas and
commentary without direction or without an up or down.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/12/2001 2:39:13 PM !!!First Boot!!!, SandraDodd@...
writes:


> > And even then you're only an expert in your own situation. Figuring stuff
> > out for others has many pitfalls.
> >
>
> Not helping others figure stuff out means no La Leche League, no Alcoholics
> (or anyone else) anonymous, no other help groups, no useful online forums
> or
> discussions of any kind. If we're all experts in our own situations, why
> aren't all our kids in school?
>
>


There is a difference between "figuring stuff out for others" and "helping
others figure stuff out."

Discussions of many kinds are useful. But if we wander from "helping" to
doing it for them, I think we will fail a lot of the time.

And I just plain don't understand your remark about school.

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

So you mother was an alcoholic. Try some meetings for Adult Children of
Alcoholics. That means you have personal life experiences with an alcoholic
(or more, who knows) but it still doesn't make you an expert on a psych
diagnosis of OCD or other addictive personality disorders.

Your last sentence was and is a backhanded way of calling someone a liar and
based on what? Nothing except that you don't like the way you perceive her
to be living her life.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] My own AH HA!


>
> In a message dated 9/11/01 11:51:09 PM, lurine@... writes:
>
> << You on the other hand have questioned the diagnosis and her parenting
> abilities from day one even though your expertise would seem to be English
> and teaching neither of which makes you qualified to judge. >>
>
> My mom's an alcoholic and I'm familiar (not from personal choice, but
there
> life is) with the genetics and treatment methods and self-help programs,
but
> darn! Getting that English degree cancelled out all other things in my
life.
>
>
> Good old school and its certificates. Since I went to school, others can
> TELL me what I know now!
>
> Even if I'd never met an addict in my life, this statement remains true:
>
> > Just because there's a difference doesn't mean everytime a mom wants to
> say
> > "my kid is an addict and so..." that she's right.
>
> Sandra
>
> "Everything counts."
> http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
> http://expage.com/SandraDodd
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Lynda

Figuring it out for them never really works because most of the time the
figuring out is from a place that the person doing the figuring is coming
from and not the person who is supposedly being helped and is soooo very
unschooling <g>

Offering help, offering to share experiences, just being there are IMHO the
way to go.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <marbleface@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 6:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] My own AH HA!


> In a message dated 09/12/2001 12:26:00 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
> lurine@... writes:
>
>
> > Geez, everyone's an expert because they read some article somewhere.
How
> > about "walk a mile" instead.
> >
> >
>
> And even then you're only an expert in your own situation. Figuring stuff
> out for others has many pitfalls.
>
> Nance
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/11/01 7:26:25 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
lurine@... writes:


> Geez, everyone's an expert because they read some article somewhere. How
> about "walk a mile" instead.
>
> Lynda
>

No, I'm not a psych expert, but yes, I've worked with many different addicts
in my life. I have experienced serious addiction first hand, in my family,
and in my surrounding community (friends and spouses who for some strange
reason are either addicts themselves or one is a big part of their lives).
I've been a part of aa and al-anon, and I didn't just read one little
article. I've read tons of books on addiction and self-help. This makes me no
expert whatsoever. It just means sometimes I can spot things that fit into
the format, and I was just stating my opinion. I could be wrong, way off,
etc. I wasn't implying that it was a family 'fault' so much as I was saying a
family illness. I don't care what genetic research says, I believe addiction
is both genetic and environmental. While some children of alcoholics may not
become addicts themselves, many fall into codependent coping
behaviors....controlling, overworking, etc.

So I have walked a mile....a few actually.

Brenda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

It seems absurd that some people on an unschooling board think you have to
be an "expert" in a field to have an informed opinion about something, in
this case, addictions. I don't dare offer my own opinon, because of course, I
may not have the required pre-requisites. . . who woulda thunk it . . . here
on unschooling-dotcom.

lovemary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bridget E Coffman

I don't mind your opinion but if you are telling me I don't know what I
am talking about with MY family, then I get annoyed.

Bridget


On Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:57:10 EDT lite2yu@... writes:
> It seems absurd that some people on an unschooling board think you
have to
> be an "expert" in a field to have an informed opinion about something,
in
> this case, addictions. I don't dare offer my own opinon, because of
course, I
> may not have the required pre-requisites. . . who woulda thunk it . .
. here
> on unschooling-dotcom.
>
> lovemary
>

~~~~~~~~~~~~ F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If electricity comes from electrons . . .
. . . does that mean that morality comes from morons?

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/13/2001 11:44:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> I don't mind your opinion but if you are telling me I don't know what I
> am talking about with MY family, then I get annoyed.
>
> Bridget
>
>

Let me tell you something Bridget. . . this is exactly why you are pissing
people off on here. I never ever mentioned you or was anywhere NEAR talking
about you in my post, was I? No, I was not. Yet you continually jump to
conclusions about how everyone is telling you what to do. For the record, I
have not offered any opinion on the subject of addictions nor do I intend to.
I was simply commenting on Lynda's dialog about how she was better informed
on this issue because of her education, which I find absurd.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Bridget E Coffman

On Thu, 13 Sep 2001 14:49:14 EDT lite2yu@... writes:
>
> I was simply commenting on Lynda's dialog about how she was better
> informed on this issue because of her education, which I find absurd.
>
>

And I was simply commenting on the fact that I have been told by several
people here (not necessarily you) that I am just imagining my son's
problems. Or worse, causing them.

Bridget

~~~~~~~~~~~~ F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If electricity comes from electrons . . .
. . . does that mean that morality comes from morons?

Sharon Rudd

If the shoe fits..............

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > I don't mind your opinion but if you are telling
> me

> I get annoyed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I never ever mentioned you

> you continually jump to
> conclusions about how everyone is telling you what
> to do. >

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