[email protected]

Hi All:

Hubby and I are talking about unschooling and I was explaining what I'd read
here about how the kids get to choose, what, where, when, how, why etc. His
question was "what if you (Dawn) are doing a reading in your office and I
(Steve) need to go to Target to exchange something. Zak and Max have to come
with me because you can't watch them while you are working, so do I give Zak
the choice even though there isn't really a choice, because he has to come
with me"?

I would love some feedback on this question.

Dawn
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dawn Falbe
Personal Development Coach
Relocational Astrologer
(520) 579-2646
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Path of Least Resistance is Inside of You
www.astrologerdawn.com
Enlightening women on how to live their Soul Purpose

"The people who get on in this world
are people who get up and look for the
circumstances they want, and,
if they can't find them, make them." - George Bernard Shaw

"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school."-George
Bernard Shaw





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< His
question was "what if you (Dawn) are doing a reading in your office and I
(Steve) need to go to Target to exchange something. Zak and Max have to come
with me because you can't watch them while you are working, so do I give Zak
the choice even though there isn't really a choice, because he has to come
with me"? >>

If you really want Zak to go then make it fun and happy. If Zak really has a
choice, give him a choice.

I don't understand the question. If Zak is old enough to stay home on his
own, then choices start to be feasible. If not, that's not a choice
situation yet.



Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Rachel Wolfe Ravenhart

NumoAstro@... wrote:

> Hi All:
>
> Hubby and I are talking about unschooling and I was explaining what
> I'd read
> here about how the kids get to choose, what, where, when, how, why
> etc. His
> question was "what if you (Dawn) are doing a reading in your office
> and I
> (Steve) need to go to Target to exchange something. Zak and Max have
> to come
> with me because you can't watch them while you are working, so do I
> give Zak
> the choice even though there isn't really a choice, because he has to
> come
> with me"?

One of the ways we deal wih such questions here is to let the FaeBeast
know when he does and doesn't have a choice of going somewhere. For
example, he prefers to stay home rather than go grocery shopping. Most
times we can arrange that. On the days we CAN'T, I tell him that we
need to go to theg rocery. It falls into our family's category of things
that have to be done for the family as a whole. He's got the idea. Not
cleaning his room is HIS business. Not taking his toys out of the living
room before bed is FAMILY business because the family has to either
avoid the toys or move them. It's fair, all the adults have to put
their briefcases and video games (the "grups toys" as Ansley calls them)
away before THEY go to bed. There's good sense to rules for peaceful
coexistence - especially if the kid can see that ALL the familyhas to
follow certain rules.

Rachel Ravenhart


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/09/2001 3:53:09 PM !!!First Boot!!!, SandraDodd@...
writes:


> If Zak is old enough to stay home on his
> own, then choices start to be feasible. If not, that's not a choice
> situation yet.
>
>
>
> Sandra
>

Age appropriate choices anyone?

My 6 and 8 yo may not stay at home while I go do the shopping. No, I don't
wait until dh gets home from work all the time; sometimes I do, sometimes I
don't. When I shop, they come along. There is no choice. I don't have to
be an ogre about it. But that's our life.

Nance





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dawn

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> << His
> question was "what if you (Dawn) are doing a reading in your office
and I
> (Steve) need to go to Target to exchange something. Zak and Max
have to come
> with me because you can't watch them while you are working, so do I
give Zak
> the choice even though there isn't really a choice, because he has
to come
> with me"? >>
>
> If you really want Zak to go then make it fun and happy. If Zak
really has a
> choice, give him a choice.
>
> I don't understand the question. If Zak is old enough to stay home
on his
> own, then choices start to be feasible.

Sanda he's 6 so it's not a choice.

Dawn

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/01 11:06:12 AM, NumoAstro@... writes:

<< Sanda he's 6 so it's not a choice.>>

Then it's cheating to ask him if he wants to go or not! (It wouldn't be a
real choice.)

My husband used to do a bad, thoughtless thing when the kids were little.
One would say "Can I go with you!?" when he was about to leave to do
something and instead of "No, I need to leave really quick" or "you would be
too bored" or "I would rather go by myself," he would say "No, you don't even
have any shoes on" or "No because you're not dressed."

In such instances if they produce shoes in a flash or can get dressed in the
car, I figured he should take them.

He didn't want to take them, but he wanted to blame them.

I have no idea where that came from, and he quit doing it after I talked to
him about it a couple of times.

The other night I left Marty home at his request (he's 12) while I went with
Holly 20 miles away to a folk singing session. I tried to convince him to
come because I was afraid he would get spooked alone. He had the dog, and he
stayed online talking to friends so it ended up not being a problem. Kirby
had been elsewhere, my husband's out of state, and it just felt creepy to me,
having the whole family so split up. I almost stayed home. But I didn't
consider trying to force Marty to go with us to the folk singing. He has
gone voluntarily lots of times before. If he has no choice he can never go
voluntarily.

So I suffered. <LOL>

Sandra

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Sharon Rudd

> So I suffered. <LOL>
> Sandra

Dear Sandra...I know you don't really care about
other's opinions of you, so you can call this
"feedback" and it will be acceptable. You are a good
mother.
Sharon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com

Diane

Right. My 1 and 3 have to go unless Dad's home, but they can still choose to
bring a book or a truck in the car, and they can still ask to play with the toys
at the store.

:-) Diane

> > If Zak is old enough to stay home on his
> > own, then choices start to be feasible. If not, that's not a choice
> > situation yet.
> >
> >
> > Sandra
>
> Age appropriate choices anyone?
>
> My 6 and 8 yo may not stay at home while I go do the shopping. No, I don't
> wait until dh gets home from work all the time; sometimes I do, sometimes I
> don't. When I shop, they come along. There is no choice. I don't have to
> be an ogre about it. But that's our life.

Pam Hartley

----------
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1438
>Date: Sun, Sep 9, 2001, 9:44 AM
>

> "what if you (Dawn) are doing a reading in your office and I
> (Steve) need to go to Target to exchange something. Zak and Max have to come
> with me because you can't watch them while you are working, so do I give Zak
> the choice even though there isn't really a choice, because he has to come
> with me"?

First, Steve could determine if he "needs to" go to Target to exchange
something right-that-minute, or can it wait an hour if need be? If it really
can't wait (he's under a deadline on the project, it has be done now) and
there is no one else available to watch the kids, and they are too young to
remain on their own, then they wouldn't have a choice.

They might not care. They might think a trip to Target is cool. If they DID
care (they were right in the middle of a project of their own,
thank-you-very-much, and resented having to up and leave it for an adult
errand) I would make a brief explanation of why it couldn't wait, and an
offer of a way to make amends for disrupting their time (playing a game,
taking a bike ride, whatever seems suitable). And I would try remember the
next time they asked ME for something that wasn't wildly convenient for me
that doing none-wildly-convenient things for each other,
parents-for-children and less frequently (hopefully) children-for-parents is
part of the deal of being a family.

Pam

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/2001 11:21:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
NumoAstro@... writes:


> Zak and Max have to come
> with me because you can't watch them while you are working, so do I give
> Zak
> the choice even though there isn't really a choice, because he has to come
> with me"?
>
> I would love some feedback on this question.
>
> Dawn
>

I guess I would make it a choice and if Steve doesnt feel comfortable leaving
him, then postpone the Target trip. (seems like Target could be postponed
easily enough). If he absolutely HAS to go somewhere, maybe you can have it
on a schedule and try to help them understand that at this particular time,
Dad has this appt and has to go, and since Mom is doing some work in her
office and cant be disturbed, you need to come with me.

I guess the main answer is "it depends" because really it does and every
situation is different, but I think mutual respect is the key, and that
begins very very early.

lovemary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/09/2001 5:51:05 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
cen46624@... writes:


> but they can still choose to
>


Isn't that what the back seat floor of the car if FOR??? There really is a
floor under there somewhere. :)

Nance





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/09/2001 6:41:43 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
pamhartley@... writes:


> They might not care. They might think a trip to Target is cool. If they DID
> care (they were right in the middle of a project of their own,
> thank-you-very-much, and resented having to up and leave it for an adult
> errand) I would make a brief explanation of why it couldn't wait, and an
> offer of a way to make amends for disrupting their time (playing a game,
> taking a bike ride, whatever seems suitable). And I would try remember the
> next time they asked ME for something that wasn't wildly convenient for me
> that doing none-wildly-convenient things for each other,
> parents-for-children and less frequently (hopefully) children-for-parents is
> part of the deal of being a family.
>
> Pam
>


You may actually be getting to the nub of something here --

Some adult things really do have to happen and some kid things may seem
important to the kid at the moment but really can wait. And making that
decision, as in where you explain why something can't wait, is the adult's
task a lot of the time.

Being nice and patient and working together and respecting each other and all
the rest of it is great. But sometimes the bank really will close and I need
to get there before it does.

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Fetteroll

on 9/9/01 12:44 PM, NumoAstro@... wrote:

> His
> question was "what if you (Dawn) are doing a reading in your office and I
> (Steve) need to go to Target to exchange something. Zak and Max have to come
> with me because you can't watch them while you are working, so do I give Zak
> the choice even though there isn't really a choice, because he has to come
> with me"?

For some people unschooling only applies to learning and not to parenting.
To others, they're inseparable. So there really isn't an official
unschooling answer to that. (Though there are plenty of unschoolers who will
tell you what they do ;-)

For some people that might be considered Non Coercive Parenting (NCP to
those in the know) or Taking Children Seriously (TCS). Or noncoercive
parenting if you want to avoid the official stuff.

Or it might just be parenting to some unschoolers :-)

An NCP answer would be to expand your options to find a win-win situation,
for instance, turning the trip into something where you both end up with
something (like stopping at the park on the way back) or going at a
different time so he can stay home or ???

If your goal is to be less coercive, it helps to turn things around so the
situation is between you and your husband. If you wouldn't want him treating
you that way, should you treat your child like that? So if, for some reason,
you couldn't be left at home alone -- pyromaniac tendencies or something ;-)
-- would you want him to drag you along to a boring store where you couldn't
look at the things you wanted to, had to stick right by his side while he
looked at fishing rods and tackle and such (or whatever would bore you out
of your gourd) just because he wanted to go right now and didn't want to
inconvenience himself by waiting until later?

Joyce

Sarah

Hi Dawn,

We do a few things in similar situations. We trade baby-sitting with
our neighbors, live close to doting grandparents, link going out with
ice-cream and other child-friendly activities, invite a friend to join
us, order pizza and go to the store the next day, take the bus and call
it an adventure, have groceries delivered, run errands when everyone is
well rested and fed, keep really fun toys in the car, etc. The best
advice I have received is to abandon my own agenda and learn to go with
the flow :). It seems to me there are always more than two choices ~
sometimes it just takes some creative problem-solving.

I highly recommend reading some of these articles:
http://www.eeng.dcu.ie/~tcs/Articles/index.html

Sarah Anderson-Thimmes

NumoAstro@... wrote:

> Hi All:
>
> Hubby and I are talking about unschooling and I was explaining what
> I'd read
> here about how the kids get to choose, what, where, when, how, why
> etc.


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Fetteroll

on 9/9/01 3:17 PM, marbleface@... wrote:

> Some adult things really do have to happen and some kid things may seem
> important to the kid at the moment but really can wait.

I think it's more true to say that some *things* really can't wait. I think
way too often adults feel that since we're doing things for the family that
we don't have a choice about (though that often isn't as true as we assume
it is) then our things are important and kid things aren't.

A kid playing a game is "just" a kid playing whereas when we "need' to go to
the supermarket now so we have food for dinner, therefore our need is
important and theirs can wait.

But their need to play is just as great -- in fact greater since they are
doing something that is personally meaningful -- than our need for food,
particularly since we've (usually) created the situation ourselves by not
planning ahead.

If a child were to forget he needed something for a class meeting in 20
minutes, we'd be irritated that he inconvenienced us and he might get
lectured about planning ahead and so on. And yet if we forget to go to the
bank until 15 minutes before it closes and end up inconveniencing the kids,
we probably would be upset if the children got upset with us because we'd
feel it's just something we "have" to do. When actually an apology to the
kids is in order -- *if* that's how we'd want the kids to behave towards
others in similar circumstances.

I think it's helpful to look at the things we do for the family not as have
tos but as things we want to do for them. We don't *have* to make dinner
every night. We *could* buy prepared food, or take out, or cook once a month
or ??? People will say they "can't" eat out every night (because of the
expense or too many calories or whatever) but the truth is we *could*, but
we *choose* not to because the consequences aren't worth dealing with. We
*do* choose the option of cooking most nights because that's the option with
the consequences we find least objectionable.

We choose to keep the house to a certain standard *not* because we have to
but because that's what we *want* to do. As long as it isn't unhealthy, the
"home police" wont' come in and arrest us if we don't scrub the toilet every
week (or every month or every six months) ;-), if our laundry isn't folded
and put away neatly, if the toys are left in front of the TV.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/09/2001 8:12:22 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
fetteroll@... writes:


> > Some adult things really do have to happen and some kid things may seem
> > important to the kid at the moment but really can wait.
>
>



However you want to say it. But sometimes I have to get somewhere and no
amount of my being nice or planning ahead or lowering my housekeeping
standards (which couldn't really be much lower) or respecting my kids' play
needs is going to change the fact that the check just got written by the
client and the guys really need their payroll money and I really have to get
to the bank before it closes and there really is nobody else to watch my kids
and they really do just have to stop what they are doing and come along.

Not every day. And I try to explain. But sometimes you really do have to
put on your shoes and get in the car and schlepp around with Mom.

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

<< We choose to keep the house to a certain standard *not* because we have to
but because that's what we *want* to do. As long as it isn't unhealthy, the
"home police" wont' come in and arrest us if we don't scrub the toilet every
week (or every month or every six months) ;-), if our laundry isn't folded
and put away neatly, if the toys are left in front of the TV. >>

Unless you live on a military base. Then the inspector might literally come.





Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Bridget E Coffman

On Sun, 9 Sep 2001 17:11:44 EDT marbleface@... writes:
>
> Not every day. And I try to explain. But sometimes you really do
have to
> put on your shoes and get in the car and schlepp around with Mom.
>
> Nance
>
>

God - I'm glad mine are all old enough to be past that. I can leave them
alone if I want to.

Bridget

~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat

Pam Hartley

----------
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1441
>Date: Sun, Sep 9, 2001, 2:36 PM
>

> if we don't scrub the toilet every
> week (or every month or every six months) ;-), if our laundry isn't folded
> and put away neatly, if the toys are left in front of the TV.


Joyce. Joyce Joyce Joyce. You're giving me a facial twitch. <ggg>

Pam, who is pretty much just kidding since there are an unspeakable number
of toys in front of the TV at the moment (I believe it's the tragic
aftermath of a major Pokemon battle, but I haven't been downstairs to check
for survivors).

Fetteroll

on 9/9/01 10:25 PM, Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...> wrote:

> Pam, who is pretty much just kidding since there are an unspeakable number
> of toys in front of the TV at the moment (I believe it's the tragic
> aftermath of a major Pokemon battle, but I haven't been downstairs to check
> for survivors).

Ah, Pam, I suspect my concept of -- and experience with -- unspeakable
number of toys is powers of ten over your idea of unspeakable ;-)

Though now it's papers. *None* of which, even drawings that weren't working
and were abandoned, may be thrown away.

Joyce