[email protected]

In a message dated 6/3/99 7:25:30 AM Central Daylight Time,
tl2b@... writes:

<< but then all he wants to do is read Star Wars books, Robert Jordan
>books, play nintendo 64, or play on the internet. I keep wondering when he
>will finally be "deschooled" and ready to learn >>

He is learning. Star Wars is nothing but the story of the entire reason for
human existence. What is good? What is bad? Where does evil eminate from? Who
is responsible? Where is God, What is the Force?? If he was reading Dante's
Inferno or Milton you'd be proud, but you know what, he'd be going over the
same issues.

Science Fiction takes the science we know and tries to extend it. Ever seen
a rerun of Buck Rodgers??? They seem so childish now. <G> He's getting a
good dose of real science mixed in with what if... That's scientific thinking
at it's best.

Video games are math in action. Find an algebra 2 book and look for the
chapter on Matrix's. Then play a video game. A Matrix in action. The
logical thinking that is required to play most video games rivals the logic
used in any textbook word problem. My 9 year old spent most of yesterday
drawing his own mazes for his own *video game*. Math in action, as he had to
use scale and porportion, measurement (as in graph paper boxes) He then
spent at least 2 hours, if all totalled up reading....struggling to read his
video game magazines. He's not working on Dick and Jane words using that
magazine. :)

If he's on the net, what is he reading... (there's that reading and
vocabulary thing again). Is he typing... um.. writing at all. Does he have
email pals that he writes to daily?? He could be doing an incredible amount
of English..........

One day I found my teen on the computer just as dawn was beaking. I was
really irratited, knowing that she'd stayed up all night and would sleep all
day and I needed her. ( her sibs are 7, 9 and 11 years younger, sometimes I
have to have her help) Know what, she'd gotten involved in a discussion
about God and the universe. She'd sent all night defending her positions and
really listening to people who held vastly different beliefs. Where else but
the net is she going to get that?? ((We live in AL and almost everyone is a
fundamentalist Christian, including many members of our family. Religion is
just not a topic we discuss very much because the feelings run so deep, even
between relatives who just practice Christianity differently from each
other.)) Theology at 16.

I don't know your son, but I do know that our teens are awesome. They are in
their own heads, thinking and comparing and wondering. Sometimes they are
overwhelmed by the adult world and are confused by how we compartmentalize
our world. They aren't ready to put things in nice neat boxes...... boxes of
ticky tacky.

It's shift of persepctive to look at what they ARE doing and see the learning
and connections inherent in their choices. He hasn't been deschooling for 3
years getting ready to go back to schooling. He's been unschooling for a very
long time. :)

Lisa

[email protected]

Lisa,
I'm not the original post-er but I loved your response. Very
affirming. Thank you for sending it.
Judy in CA


In a message dated 6/3/99 6:04:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, KaeKaeB2@...
writes:

> He hasn't been deschooling for 3
> years getting ready to go back to schooling. He's been unschooling for a
> very
> long time. :)

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

At 09:02 AM 6/3/99 EDT, you wrote:
>From: KaeKaeB2@...
>
>In a message dated 6/3/99 7:25:30 AM Central Daylight Time,
>tl2b@... writes:
>
><< but then all he wants to do is read Star Wars books, Robert Jordan
> >books, play nintendo 64, or play on the internet. I keep wondering when he
> >will finally be "deschooled" and ready to learn >>
>
>He is learning. Star Wars is nothing but the story of the entire reason
for
>human existence. What is good? What is bad? Where does evil eminate from?
Who
>is responsible? Where is God, What is the Force?? If he was reading Dante's
>Inferno or Milton you'd be proud, but you know what, he'd be going over the
>same issues.


Hey, I just wanted to throw in a book recommendation here. Try introducing
him to anything by or about Joseph Campbell. He covers all these topics
mentioned above and uses illustrations from every major religion, as well
as modern movies and other sources. He discusses the traditional HERO myth
and the boy coming-of-age story (where the 'boy' survives tirals and
hardships and through courage and the power of his mind he comes through on
the other side a man [see Star Wars]), as represented in every culture on
the planet, as well as a number of other myths. He might find his work
intesting. I know I find it fascinating!


>Science Fiction takes the science we know and tries to extend it. Ever seen
>a rerun of Buck Rodgers??? They seem so childish now. <G> He's getting a
>good dose of real science mixed in with what if... That's scientific
thinking
>at it's best.

Science fiction is wonderful and often stretches the mind into new
configurations of thought in order to comprehend some pretty complicated
futuristic concepts. Try talking to him about that interest, and maybe
introducing him to some new SF books that may broaden his interests. Maybe
a trip to the local bookstore (which my family thinks of more as the
brain-candy store!) is in order, to let him pick out some new material. My
brother devours SF books at the speed of light, as does my husband. My
husband took his interest in SF and now works as an Engineer, doing product
testing for Waste disposal and cleanup (he calls it playing with toys for a
living!) But he is very math oriented.

For someone more interested in the language and story there are lots of
ways to make a career of it. How about writing their own books, designing
video or computer games, comic book creation for those with art talent,
retailing SF merchandise (big business,) creating SF role playing or board
games (there is always room for more!) and lots of other ideas that I can't
think of but I'm sure others can. The point is, if your son has enough
math to pass a GED, that is all that he needs to progress in the world. He
will learn as much math as he needs to get along, just like I did. I HATED
math and failed it so many times that I still can't pick up a textbook
without cringing. The idea is to prepare him for wherever he wants to take
himself in his future, and if you can light a fire under him, math will
meerly become a tool, a means to an end, instead of the enemy. If he can
find his direction, his passion, than he WILL learn any math he needs to
meet his goals, and you WON'T have to crack a textbook!

Nanci K.

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/3/99 8:04:13 AM Central Daylight Time, KaeKaeB2@...
writes:

<< It's shift of persepctive to look at what they ARE doing and see the
learning
and connections inherent in their choices. He hasn't been deschooling for
3
years getting ready to go back to schooling. He's been un >>


Lisa,
I guess I hadnt really thought of it that way. You brought up the book
Dantes Infernal, saying that I would be proud if he was reading that instead
of Star Wars. I went to public school and I never read that book! I guess
it is time for me to read it now, so that I know what people are talking
about when they discuss it.
Thanks for your kinds words!
Tami IN

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/3/99 8:04:16 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
KaeKaeB2@... writes:

<< Video games are math in action. Find an algebra 2 book and look for the
chapter on Matrix's. Then play a video game. A Matrix in action. The
logical thinking that is required to play most video games rivals the logic
used in any textbook word problem. My 9 year old spent most of yesterday
drawing his own mazes for his own *video game*. Math in action, as he had
to
use scale and porportion, measurement (as in graph paper boxes) He then
spent at least 2 hours, if all totalled up reading....struggling to read his
video game magazines. He's not working on Dick and Jane words using that
magazine. :) >>


Have you read anything by Seymour Papert? He writes about computers and
learning and has some really fresh ideas. The above validates some of ideas
he discusses about computers and computer games.

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/3/99 7:58:09 PM Central Daylight Time,
FreeSchool@... writes:

<< You brought up the book
Dantes Infernal, saying that I would be proud if he was reading that instead
of Star Wars. I went to public school and I never read that book! I guess
it is time for me to read it now, so that I know what people are talking
about when they discuss it. >>

Oh gosh.. you know what, I haven't read it either. I just know it's about
the large issues of Good vs Evil. I'd rather read Star Wars. :)

Lisa

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/3/99 10:14:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:

<< The point is, if your son has enough
math to pass a GED, that is all that he needs to progress in the world. He
will learn as much math as he needs to get along, just like I did. I HATED
math and failed it so many times that I still can't pick up a textbook
without cringing. The idea is to prepare him for wherever he wants to take
himself in his future, and if you can light a fire under him, math will
meerly become a tool, a means to an end, instead of the enemy. If he can
find his direction, his passion, than he WILL learn any math he needs to
meet his goals, and you WON'T have to crack a textbook! >>


Nanci,
THANK YOU!!!! You can't imagine how much your post means to me! I have
had so much negativity from those around me about my son, that it can be very
catching. When he was little, he unknowingly to us, had a hearing problem.
For the first four years of his life, he didn't talk. I took him to the
pediatrician constantly, just to be told that he would talk when he wanted to
that his hearing was fine. Finally, in desperation, I took him to a
specialist. We found out that he could hear "sounds" but not enough to
understand them (that is why the little beep in the ear test that the
pediatrician did, always showed that he had hearing). The reason that he
could understand us enough to follow instructions was that he had learned to
read our lips! However he couldn't hear enough to really mimic speech.
At four, he took speech therapy. At five, he started kindergarten (at
the request of his therapist and others who thought that he needed to be
around other kids). That did no good at all, as his speech was "baby talk"
at that time and just got him ridiculed by other children. Besides his
characteristics (from 4 years of not hearing) were very different and
immature compaired to other children. We ended up having him repeat grades
while he was still younger, but he still had a "hellish" experience during
public school. He even had a teacher ridicule him in front of class (which I
didn't find out about until later---or I would have done something about
it!!! It still makes me furious to think about it all these years later!),
which caused him to start becoming angry and acting out at home. Finally in
desperation in his 6th grade year, I began looking for options (private
school, parocial school etc) and a friend mentioned homeschooling. I was
shocked! "Do you mean that it is LEGAL?" I asked. I only thought that
people who lived in the "Arctic" and couldn't get to a school did that.
Now I wish I had heard of it way before he began his public school "shop
of horrors" experience. I guess that with public school teachers as parents,
I shouldn't be surprised to not hear of homeschooling, but I am.
Anyway, possibly because of his bad experiences, my son seemed to have
no interest in anything. We tried baseball, soccer, music, choir, you name
it-we tried it. It wasn't until he started playing nintendo, that we could
get him interested in anything, and then we were dissapointed that he was
"hooked" onto nintendo, as that wasn't exactly what we had in mind. Since
then, he has also gotten hooked onto Science Fiction and Fantasy. Hence the
Star Trek, Star Wars, and Robert Jordan books, which his dear mother (me), is
also hooked on. *grin*
Our relatives, however, can't get by his very immature and troubled
non-hearing childhood. They are constantly worrying out loud, about what he
is going to do for his future. They are never around at boy scouts or youth
group to see how much he has blossomed. (He has tons of friends and is
considered a leader in boy scouts.) Instead, they see the bungling, awkward
child that is now homeschooling, won't finish a math book and is ruining his
life by unschooling, sleeping to 11:00 am, staying up until 2:00 am. being
hooked on Science Fiction and Nintendo.
Unfortunately, the more I hear of their doubt and worry, the more I
start doubting and worrying also. I am constantly rereading GWS and HEM,
John Holt books, and Llewellyn books but sometimes that makes it worse
because those kids seem to be taking off and really "doing" something with
their lives.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for making me stop and see that maybe
there IS a possibility of getting a career out of the things that he likes to
do. I really did need the encouragement. I am planning on spending this
summer doing alot of thinking and pondering on my children and their "good
aspects" and how to encourage them to grow.
I am also going to try to "deschool" Myself! It seems like I need it as much
as my kids, since I can't seem to get the "traditional" school views out of
my head.
If you have any suggestions for me, please send them my way. This is
going to be a very interesting summer---at least as far as "thoughtful
speculations" and planning goes!
Thanks,
Tami IN

::she just is::

Wow, your story makes me glad that my mom took me out of school before first
grade.
I had lots of ear infections when I was young, so my hearing was sort of off
as well. I didn't start speaking until about age four, and then I was put in
one of those schools (I forgot what they're called) with only three other
kids in the classroom, lots of individual attention. Kindergarten, though,
was in a public school, with about thirty other kids in the class and a very
exausted teacher. Not good for me at all -- but luckily I haven't had to
worry about that since Mom took me out of school before first grade :)
Sounds like your son had it pretty rough in school -- don't worry that he
isn't the Ultimate Unschooler (I'm not either and I'm sure there's lots of
others who don't Do Everything. The ones that are doing everything just get
the most publicity :) ) Just give him space :-) ~Eryn

==
"I dreamed I was a butterfly, flitting around in the sky;
then I awoke. Now I wonder: Am I a man who dreamt of
being a butterfuly, or am I a butterfly dreaming that I am
a man?" - Chuang Tsu
http://www.camenaworks.com/Eryn/
#24591173 ::she just is::
AIM :: Opal Fayre


>Nanci,
> THANK YOU!!!! You can't imagine how much your post means to me! I
have
>had so much negativity from those around me about my son, that it can be
very
>catching. When he was little, he unknowingly to us, had a hearing problem.
>For the first four years of his life, he didn't talk. I took him to the
>pediatrician constantly, just to be told that he would talk when he wanted
to
>that his hearing was fine. Finally, in desperation, I took him to a
>specialist. We found out that he could hear "sounds" but not enough to
>understand them (that is why the little beep in the ear test that the
>pediatrician did, always showed that he had hearing). The reason that he
>could understand us enough to follow instructions was that he had learned
to
>read our lips! However he couldn't hear enough to really mimic speech.
> At four, he took speech therapy. At five, he started kindergarten (at
>the request of his therapist and others who thought that he needed to be
>around other kids). That did no good at all, as his speech was "baby talk"
>at that time and just got him ridiculed by other children. Besides his
>characteristics (from 4 years of not hearing) were very different and
>immature compaired to other children. We ended up having him repeat grades
>while he was still younger, but he still had a "hellish" experience during
>public school. He even had a teacher ridicule him in front of class (which
I
>didn't find out about until later---or I would have done something about
>it!!! It still makes me furious to think about it all these years later!),
>which caused him to start becoming angry and acting out at home. Finally
in
>desperation in his 6th grade year, I began looking for options (private
>school, parocial school etc) and a friend mentioned homeschooling. I was
>shocked! "Do you mean that it is LEGAL?" I asked. I only thought that
>people who lived in the "Arctic" and couldn't get to a school did that.
> Now I wish I had heard of it way before he began his public school
"shop
>of horrors" experience. I guess that with public school teachers as
parents,
>I shouldn't be surprised to not hear of homeschooling, but I am.
> Anyway, possibly because of his bad experiences, my son seemed to have
>no interest in anything. We tried baseball, soccer, music, choir, you name
>it-we tried it. It wasn't until he started playing nintendo, that we could
>get him interested in anything, and then we were dissapointed that he was
>"hooked" onto nintendo, as that wasn't exactly what we had in mind. Since
>then, he has also gotten hooked onto Science Fiction and Fantasy. Hence the
>Star Trek, Star Wars, and Robert Jordan books, which his dear mother (me),
is
>also hooked on. *grin*
> Our relatives, however, can't get by his very immature and troubled
>non-hearing childhood. They are constantly worrying out loud, about what
he
>is going to do for his future. They are never around at boy scouts or
youth
>group to see how much he has blossomed. (He has tons of friends and is
>considered a leader in boy scouts.) Instead, they see the bungling,
awkward
>child that is now homeschooling, won't finish a math book and is ruining
his
>life by unschooling, sleeping to 11:00 am, staying up until 2:00 am. being
>hooked on Science Fiction and Nintendo.
> Unfortunately, the more I hear of their doubt and worry, the more I
>start doubting and worrying also. I am constantly rereading GWS and HEM,
>John Holt books, and Llewellyn books but sometimes that makes it worse
>because those kids seem to be taking off and really "doing" something with
>their lives.
> Thank you, thank you, thank you for making me stop and see that maybe
>there IS a possibility of getting a career out of the things that he likes
to
>do. I really did need the encouragement. I am planning on spending this
>summer doing alot of thinking and pondering on my children and their "good
>aspects" and how to encourage them to grow.
>I am also going to try to "deschool" Myself! It seems like I need it as
much
>as my kids, since I can't seem to get the "traditional" school views out of
>my head.
> If you have any suggestions for me, please send them my way. This is
>going to be a very interesting summer---at least as far as "thoughtful
>speculations" and planning goes!
>Thanks,
>Tami IN

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/4/99 04:43:24 PM, OmegaMolecule@... writes:

<< If you have any suggestions for me, please send them my way. This is
>going to be a very interesting summer---at least as far as "thoughtful
>speculations" and planning goes! >>

It sounds like you are doing great with your son! This is the place
to come for support. Kimme

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/4/99 1:07:03 PM EST, FreeSchool@... writes:

<< It wasn't until he started playing nintendo, that we could
get him interested in anything, >>
Tami,
HUGS! And tears for your precious son. That is so horrible. And just think
what he has overcome! I am sure that the games became so important to him
because he could do this himself, without fear of people making fun of him.
He will always have that in the back of his mind, but, he can become an
animator or invent cd games, gameboy games, all things he doesn't' need
anyone else to see or hear til he is ready. My guys are wanting to make
their own playstation games, I haven't a clue as to where to go to help with
this project, if anyone does, please let me know. Maybe your son would be
interested in that too.

Teresa

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/4/99 3:43:24 PM Central Daylight Time,
OmegaMolecule@... writes:

<< but luckily I haven't had to
worry about that since Mom took me out of school before first grade :)
Sounds like your son had it pretty rough in school -- don't worry that he
isn't the Ultimate Unschooler (I'm not either and I'm sure there's lots of
others who don't Do Everything. The ones that are doing everything just get
the most publicity :) ) Just give him space :-) ~Eryn
>>

Eryn,
You were lucky! I wish that I had removed him from school early also.
Oh well, I can't redo the past, but I am thankful that everyone is helping me
relook at his future. I doesn't look so grim anymore. Thank you!
Tami IN

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/4/99 9:30:52 PM Central Daylight Time, Hsmotgo@...
writes:

<< HUGS! And tears for your precious son. That is so horrible. And just
think
what he has overcome! I am sure that the games became so important to him
because he could do this himself, without fear of people making fun of him.
He will always have that in the back of his mind, but, he can become an
animator or invent cd games, gameboy games, all things he doesn't' need
anyone else to see or hear til he is ready. My guys are wanting to make
their own playstation games >>


Teresa,
Thank you for the hugs and tears! I think my son likes nintendo games
because it was the first thing that he found that he was good at. Of course,
he has now found that there are alot of things that he is good at, but he is
not athletic, and being a boy, that really bothered him alot when he was
younger. He is good at things like hiking and other outdoor rugged
activities (possibly because those are the things that his father and I also
like to do), but don't ask him to play baseball or basketball, he just has no
interest in those things.
My kids also want to make their own nintendo games. I imagine that that
is a popular request now, as I have heard alot of kids say that that is what
they want to do when they grow up. I do not know how they go about getting
that type of training, or what kind of education that entails, but I doubt
that they have room for as many kids that want to do it
(including my own).LOL
Tami IN

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

I do not know how they go about getting
>that type of training, or what kind of education that entails, but I doubt
>that they have room for as many kids that want to do it
>(including my own).LOL
>Tami IN


Tami,
I wanted to write to give you a few suggestions about your son, and
possible future career paths. I did send you a long note previously about
the possible directions that his interests could take him. He sounds a lot
like my brother. Not very motivated, devours SF and Fantasy books at a
phenomenal pace, very intelligent. My brother currently works as a manager
for a retail computer software store. But I think he would also do great
with his own retail hobbie and game store.

You can try getting in touch with anyone in your area who works in those
fields and see if your son would be interested in striking up a friendship
with them, or doing apprentice type work with them. Gaming, Fantasy and
Science Fiction conventions are also a great place for networking with
folks in those businesses, and making contacts, or even just an opportunity
for your son to learn more about the options that he might be interested in
and might want to persue as a career. If he is interested in writing at
all, you might try to contact some of the authors of the books that he
enjoys and see if any of them will write and encourage him. If he is
interested in Fantasy and SF board or role playing games you can try to
find some of their creators to write to and tell your son about how they
got started and about their jobs. There are thousands of people who write
these books and make up these games, and they are just ordinary folks who
are interested in the genres, just like your son.

If he is more interested in the practical applications and possibilities of
SF technologies perhaps a Space Camp would be a great way to introduce him
to the real world fact behind the fiction. One of my sisters works as an
Engineer in design and management for NASA. If he has interest in the real
life space program, perhaps I can ask her to send me some information to
forward to you, or get you some names for contact in the space program for
mentoring. They love to do things with school-kids, as it is great PR for
them. They ARE governmentally funded, after all.

Just a few thoughts,
Nanci K. in Idaho

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/5/99 3:44:23 PM EST, FreeSchool@... writes:

<< My kids also want to make their own nintendo games. I imagine that
that
is a popular request now, as I have heard alot of kids say that that is what
they want to do when they grow up. I do not know how they go about getting
that type of training, or what kind of education that entail >>
Tami,
last night I was playing around on the web and went to keyword animation. Try
it! Your son will like it!
Teresa ; >

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/5/99 9:19:05 PM Central Daylight Time,
tn-k4of5@... writes:

<< My brother currently works as a manager
for a retail computer software store. But I think he would also do great
with his own retail hobbie and game store.

You can try getting in touch with anyone in your area who works in those
fields and see if your son would be interested in striking up a friendship
with them, or doing apprentice type work with them. >>


Nanci,
That is an idea that I hadn't thought of. When my son mentioned having
a career that is involved with video games, I immediately thought of a career
developing them. I figured that that type of career would take extensive
math and computer education, and I know how much he hates math. I never
thought about him doing a different type of job that involves video games.
That opens up alot of opportunities that I hadn't considered. Thank you.
Tami

[email protected]

In a message dated 6/5/99 9:51:56 PM Central Daylight Time, Hsmotgo@...
writes:

<< ast night I was playing around on the web and went to keyword animation.
Try
it! Your son will like it!
Teresa ; > >>


Theresa,
Thanks for the tip! I will tell him tomorrow, since it is now 2:30 am
and he is asleep.
Once again, I am the only one up playing on the internet. *grin*
Tami