Bridget E Coffman

This is from unschooling.dom:

Can unschooling be structured?

It depends on what you mean by structure. Imposing
external structure
onto the learner, by specifying materials and
methods, is not unschooling.
A person creating structure to suit his or her own
purpose, that is
unschooling. Some people are by nature methodical,
and we want our
children to respect and work with their own internal
rhythms. Our job as
parent is to help them create what they need. For
example, it is entirely
possible that one child will learn everything in a
more relaxed, free
flowing way, except for one sucject- perhaps history.
With history that
child may want a time line and a access to materials
in chronological
order. If it works for the child and is created at
the behest of the child,
then structured, methodical learning is also
unschooling.




~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat

Jon and Rue Kream

Did somebody tell you that if your child ASKS for structure you shouldn't
give it to him or you're not unschooling? ~Rue

-----Original Message-----
From: Bridget E Coffman [mailto:rumpleteasermom@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 10:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT unschooling:


This is from unschooling.dom:

Can unschooling be structured?

It depends on what you mean by structure. Imposing
external structure
onto the learner, by specifying materials and
methods, is not unschooling.
A person creating structure to suit his or her own
purpose, that is
unschooling. Some people are by nature methodical,
and we want our
children to respect and work with their own internal
rhythms. Our job as
parent is to help them create what they need. For
example, it is entirely
possible that one child will learn everything in a
more relaxed, free
flowing way, except for one sucject- perhaps history.
With history that
child may want a time line and a access to materials
in chronological
order. If it works for the child and is created at
the behest of the child,
then structured, methodical learning is also
unschooling.




~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat


Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

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Bridget E Coffman

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:50:11 -0400 "Jon and Rue Kream"
<skreams@...> writes:
> Did somebody tell you that if your child ASKS for structure you
> shouldn't
> give it to him or you're not unschooling? ~Rue
>

When I described us I got back - Then you are not unschooling and you
probably don't want the unschooling list.

Bridget


~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat

Jon and Rue Kream

I don't feel like going back to look at the old posts. I think I read them
all, but correct me if I'm wrong, because I have a hard time remembering who
said what. Did you say that you have a certain amount of time when your
kids have to do certain things? With the understanding that they can choose
exactly how to fufill those requirements? If so, *I* do not consider that
unschooling, and I don't think the passage quoted from unschooling.com backs
it up either. If a child said, "I really want to become a better writer.
Can you help me get on some sort of a schedule so I can practice?" and the
parent put a system of time to be spent writing in place, that would be
unschooling. If a parent says, "My child needs practice writing. I will
set aside some time, but they can write whatever they want." that would not
be unschooling. There are many people on this list who don't believe that
unschooling can or should be defined. I disagree. It means something.
Should someone who disagrees with me be on the unschooling board? Of
course. There's no law that says we all have to agree, and we wouldn't have
much to talk about if we did. ~Rue

-----Original Message-----
From: Bridget E Coffman [mailto:rumpleteasermom@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 11:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT
unschooling:




On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 10:50:11 -0400 "Jon and Rue Kream"
<skreams@...> writes:
> Did somebody tell you that if your child ASKS for structure you
> shouldn't
> give it to him or you're not unschooling? ~Rue
>

When I described us I got back - Then you are not unschooling and you
probably don't want the unschooling list.

Bridget


~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat


Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

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Lynda

Generally speaking folks don't ask the whys but simply jump in with
assumptions. Sad but true.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon and Rue Kream <skreams@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 7:50 AM
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT unschooling:


> Did somebody tell you that if your child ASKS for structure you shouldn't
> give it to him or you're not unschooling? ~Rue
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bridget E Coffman [mailto:rumpleteasermom@...]
> Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 10:36 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT unschooling:
>
>
> This is from unschooling.dom:
>
> Can unschooling be structured?
>
> It depends on what you mean by structure. Imposing
> external structure
> onto the learner, by specifying materials and
> methods, is not unschooling.
> A person creating structure to suit his or her own
> purpose, that is
> unschooling. Some people are by nature methodical,
> and we want our
> children to respect and work with their own internal
> rhythms. Our job as
> parent is to help them create what they need. For
> example, it is entirely
> possible that one child will learn everything in a
> more relaxed, free
> flowing way, except for one sucject- perhaps history.
> With history that
> child may want a time line and a access to materials
> in chronological
> order. If it works for the child and is created at
> the behest of the child,
> then structured, methodical learning is also
> unschooling.
>
>
>
>
> ~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
> comes from morons?~~~~
> I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
> Some letter of that After-life to spell;
> And by and by my Soul returned to me,
> And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

R Meyers

So tell me if you consider this unschooling...........you see your child struggling with something so you mention ways he can get better and ask him if he would like to do any of those, he says yes and agrees to do "such and such" so is that "child led" or would you still consider that coercion??
Rachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon and Rue Kream

*To me*, that is unschooling, as long as he can stop doing "it", and knows
he can. ~Rue

-----Original Message-----
From: R Meyers [mailto:livinglighthouse@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 2:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT
unschooling:


So tell me if you consider this unschooling...........you see your child
struggling with something so you mention ways he can get better and ask him
if he would like to do any of those, he says yes and agrees to do "such and
such" so is that "child led" or would you still consider that coercion??
Rachel



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[email protected]

<< So tell me if you consider this unschooling...........you see your child
struggling with something so you mention ways he can get better and ask him
if he would like to do any of those, he says yes and agrees to do "such and
such" so is that "child led" or would you still consider that coercion?? >>

For me, it would depend what "such and such" was, what the suggestions were
(were they all traditional schoolish things?), whether the thing he agreed to
can be bailed out of after the first touch or moment or whether he has
committed himself unwittingly to six months of structure.

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

R Meyers

Let's say he isn't writing anything so you suggest getting a penpal, writing notes to Grandma, doing a workbook and some kind of copywork that he picks himself......you tell him if you get a penpal you need to be commited to write on a regular basis.....so he picks something and says he will do it. SO a couple of months go by and he hasn't returned the penpals letter in weeks......do you remind him?? Do you let it go??
Rachel
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT unschooling:


<< So tell me if you consider this unschooling...........you see your child
struggling with something so you mention ways he can get better and ask him
if he would like to do any of those, he says yes and agrees to do "such and
such" so is that "child led" or would you still consider that coercion?? >>

For me, it would depend what "such and such" was, what the suggestions were
(were they all traditional schoolish things?), whether the thing he agreed to
can be bailed out of after the first touch or moment or whether he has
committed himself unwittingly to six months of structure.

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/8/01 7:14:47 PM, livinglighthouse@... writes:

<< Let's say he isn't writing anything so you suggest getting a penpal,
writing notes to Grandma, doing a workbook and some kind of copywork that he
picks himself......you tell him if you get a penpal you need to be commited
to write on a regular basis.....so he picks something and says he will do it.
SO a couple of months go by and he hasn't returned the penpals letter in
weeks......do you remind him?? Do you let it go?? >>

Let it go.

If he doesn't like to write, having a penpal is a bad idea.
How old is he?
My kids learned to write with e-mail, instant messages, message boards about
video games, online role playing games...

Richard Prystowsky (a college writing teacher) and I did a workshop on
writing last month. Tapes are available for $5 and shipping.
http://expage.com/HSCFollowup has ordering info.

Neither of us was recommending making anyone write anything. It can do
damage, any of this "making" people do.

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Bridget E Coffman

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:59:53 -0400 "Jon and Rue Kream"
<skreams@...> writes:
> I don't feel like going back to look at the old posts. I think I read
them
> all, but correct me if I'm wrong, because I have a hard time
remembering who
> said what. Did you say that you have a certain amount of time when
your
> kids have to do certain things? With the understanding that they can
choose
> exactly how to fufill those requirements? If so, *I* do not consider
that
> unschooling, and I don't think the passage quoted from unschooling.com
backs
> it up either.

Nope, what I said was that I expect a certain AMOUNT of work from them
each week. They choose when, what and how. These 'standards' were set
together with discussion about what was reasonable, and what they wanted
to do. The only one that even comes close to being structured is matha
nd that is because THEY asked for help from my mother.

Bridget

~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat

[email protected]

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 18:21:27 -0700 "R Meyers" <livinglighthouse@...>
writes:
> Let's say he isn't writing anything so you suggest getting a penpal,

Why would you suggest getting a penpal to a child who isn't writing
anything?

daron

R Meyers

I went to 2 of Richard's workshops at the conference........very helpful. I would love to see him online but he can't seem to find anything.....or anyone I should say to motivate him to communicate online. Do you know of any good message boards or such for kids?? He is 9 years old.
Rachel
----- Original Message -----
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT unschooling:



In a message dated 9/8/01 7:14:47 PM, livinglighthouse@... writes:

<< Let's say he isn't writing anything so you suggest getting a penpal,
writing notes to Grandma, doing a workbook and some kind of copywork that he
picks himself......you tell him if you get a penpal you need to be commited
to write on a regular basis.....so he picks something and says he will do it.
SO a couple of months go by and he hasn't returned the penpals letter in
weeks......do you remind him?? Do you let it go?? >>

Let it go.

If he doesn't like to write, having a penpal is a bad idea.
How old is he?
My kids learned to write with e-mail, instant messages, message boards about
video games, online role playing games...

Richard Prystowsky (a college writing teacher) and I did a workshop on
writing last month. Tapes are available for $5 and shipping.
http://expage.com/HSCFollowup has ordering info.

Neither of us was recommending making anyone write anything. It can do
damage, any of this "making" people do.

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

R Meyers

I thought it might be a motivation, a reason to write. He usually says "I don't have anything to write about"
Rachel
Why would you suggest getting a penpal to a child who isn't writing
anything?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

I asked:

> Why would you suggest getting a penpal to a child who isn't
> writing
> anything?

On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 21:27:10 -0700 "R Meyers" <livinglighthouse@...>
writes:
> I thought it might be a motivation, a reason to write. He usually
> says "I don't have anything to write about"

I think life eventually provides motivation for doing things that are
worth doing. I guess I don't feel comfortable trying to motivate my kid
to learn something because *I* think she should learn it.

Daron

R Meyers

Well that was my original question, I was just giving an example. I think this may be the hardest thing to get over when unschooling....
Rachel
I guess I don't feel comfortable trying to motivate my kid
to learn something because *I* think she should learn it.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon and Rue Kream

Ok. So did the kids say, "We'd like to make sure we're doing enough 'work'
" or did you say, "Kids, I expect you to do a certain amount of work. Let's
come to an agreement on what you think is a reasonable amount." ? I
seriously am not picking on you. I am just trying to make sure I understand
what you are saying. ~Rue

-----Original Message-----
From: Bridget E Coffman [mailto:rumpleteasermom@...]
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2001 9:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT
unschooling:


On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:59:53 -0400 "Jon and Rue Kream"
<skreams@...> writes:
> I don't feel like going back to look at the old posts. I think I read
them
> all, but correct me if I'm wrong, because I have a hard time
remembering who
> said what. Did you say that you have a certain amount of time when
your
> kids have to do certain things? With the understanding that they can
choose
> exactly how to fufill those requirements? If so, *I* do not consider
that
> unschooling, and I don't think the passage quoted from unschooling.com
backs
> it up either.

Nope, what I said was that I expect a certain AMOUNT of work from them
each week. They choose when, what and how. These 'standards' were set
together with discussion about what was reasonable, and what they wanted
to do. The only one that even comes close to being structured is matha
nd that is because THEY asked for help from my mother.

Bridget

~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat


Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom

Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Bridget E Coffman

On Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:02:43 -0400 "Jon and Rue Kream"
<skreams@...> writes:
> Ok. So did the kids say, "We'd like to make sure we're doing enough
'work'
> " or did you say, "Kids, I expect you to do a certain amount of work.


Actually I said that. And that is when they were assigned dishes,
vacuuming, cleaning the bathroom and several outside chores. Of course
that list came about because my dear husband can't leave things be until
the kids do them. He would wash the dishes, I would get mad because they
hadn't done them and they would say, well we were going to but then dad
did them first. So now, HE knows what he is not supposed to do.

>Let's
> come to an agreement on what you think is a reasonable amount." ? I
> seriously am not picking on you. I am just trying to make sure I
> understand what you are saying. ~Rue
>

No that's not quite what was said about the 'school' stuff. I think it
was something like, "I want to start college classes next semester, what
do I need to do to get ready." From there we worked out some things she
should do to 'practice' for what will be expected of her in college. She
has the option to not do some of it. If she does not do any of it
(including the weeks chores) then she looses some autonomy. Not because
she didn't do her 'schoolwork' but because she didn't do ANYTHING. The
job sheet is pretty specific on chores but very nonspecific on other
things. If nothing she did in the entire week fit any of the categories,
she has a problem and needs to look at it. We also wave the list if she
is doing something else that is cool but doesn't fit the list or if we
are out of the house too much.
But the list itself is more a way to watch her symptoms than an effort to
control her. She is just coming off a serious allergy attack that we
noticed because her functioning levels dropped. Without the list, we may
not have noticed as soon. We also think we have pinpointed the source of
her headaches (maybe, I hope.)
My middle child, doesn't need the list but does it anyway just because.
Sometimes I think it is a competition thing with her sister but other
times I think she thinks it is a game.
My son, is not unschooled. He was until this past January and I think he
was okay but when my mom moved in next door, she started taking him over
there for a couple of hours a day. She thinks he needs the structure
even though I don't. I think it isn't hurting him and he will be fine
either way. He likes the attention he gets from grandma so he like going
there and it is working out for all of us.
So, two out of my three are unschooled. And the third was and will be
again soon.

Rue - thank you for actually taking the time to listen to what I am
saying and ask for clarification.

Bridget

ps - I was thinking last night, if you all want to insist that I am not
'unschooling' that's okay by me. Even though what I am doing is pretty
well described on the unschooling.com site, I have never much cared for
the term myself. But that has to do with my fussiness about language.
Unschooling as a word says 'not educating' to me, the way wireless says
without wires to some others (long story, don't ask). I prefer to think
of us as living and learning, in that order.

~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat

[email protected]

<< If she does not do any of it
(including the weeks chores) then she looses some autonomy. >>

Autonomy is a synonym for freedom in the thesaurus, but if by "loses some
autonomy" you mean her freedom is limited if she didn't finish her work, it's
control.

If you put writing in with doing the dishes and she can be grounded for not
doing the dishes or for not finishing her writing, it's not autonomy you're
talking about. That she has without you giving it to her. It's freedom, I
think, you meant to say.

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Bridget E Coffman

Well actually what she looses is the use of my mom's car. If she shows
signs of not being part of the family by not listening to any of the
family guidelines which apply to all of us, then she looses the car. She
knows how it works. If she chooses to do nothing then she does nothing
in every sense of the word. And it is still her choice. Are you really
saying that you do not teach you children that actions have consequences?
She is still free to do as she pleases but what she does affects how we
treat her. That's how the world works too. Unless you really believe
that you can walk into a store and rip the clothing or squish the bread
and nothing will happen because - well it was your choice to do it? Or
that it is okay to sit around and do nothing all day and expect the world
to feed you?

Bridget


On Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:42:47 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
> It's freedom, I think, you meant to say.
>
> Sandra
>

~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/01 10:45:09 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< Are you really
saying that you do not teach you children that actions have consequences?
She is still free to do as she pleases but what she does affects how we
treat her. That's how the world works too. Unless you really believe
that you can walk into a store and rip the clothing or squish the bread
and nothing will happen because - well it was your choice to do it? Or
that it is okay to sit around and do nothing all day and expect the world
to feed you? >>

This is the kind of insulting tone which I've objected to--the implication is
that we're idiots and you're calmly together.

Nobody said this or anything like it: << Or that it is okay to sit around
and do nothing all day and expect the world to feed you? >>

The questions you have in the paragraphs above have to do with the
differences between natural consequences and imposed consequences. I think
it's been discussed at length at unschooling.com. What you're using are a
rtificial, imposed "consequences" (also known as "punishment"). It's okay if
you want to do that, just be honest about the concept and terminology.

HOW can an unschooler "just sit around and do nothing all day" if everything
is educational?

But I digress.

If she goes into a store and squishes bread, will she be unable to drive her
grandmother's car?

If I watch "too much" TV, will the reception become fuzzy?

<<She is still free to do as she pleases but what she does affects how we
treat her. >>

Unconditional love or unconditional positive regard are hard to practice but
worth considering. If parents are respectful of and kind to children,
children wouldn't think of withholding the unloading of a dishwasher (not in
my experience, not with the really cooperative families I most admire in my
life).

The arguments in your paragraph above are like those used by abusive spouses.
"You had a choice. You could have made a better dinner, and I wouldn't have
thrown the casserole in the yard." (To use an example of the father of
someone I know.)

<<Are you really
saying that you do not teach you children that actions have consequences?>>

My children totally know that actions have consequences. I didn't have to
teach them that. We don't make any "consequences" up. We discuss things
with them, we don't make up arbitrary rules and schedules, we cooperate in
getting as many people in the family to as many places and activities as they
need to go to, and it has worked out peacefully and really well for many
years.

I honestly believe that it can work for other families too. I've seen it.
I've seen families that started off that way, and other families that moved
toward it, and it seems better than the power struggles and arguments people
have to have when their policies are more important than their people.

This is scary: << If she chooses to do nothing then she does nothing
in every sense of the word. >>

I have never had a child ever "do nothing." And for me to impose "nothing"
on them as a punishment because they didn't do what I declared to be
"something" would be antagonistic, not supportive. Not loving.

La Leche League did it for me for life, and I'm really grateful. They said
some traditional feeding advice (that Ezzo freak, for one, although they
didn't mention him) create an antagonism between the mother and child, and a
great "us and them" mentality, but the mother and child are partners and
should remain so.

My children aren't my enemies, nor bad otherlings who need to be made to
become adult people when I say they're ready. They're good people already.
They help because they want to. They help me because they trust me, and if I
say "This is important" or "I'm worried that this won't get done," they help
me the same way I help them when something is important to them or worrying
them.

It's not a big adjustment. It's a small adjustement that makes a huge
difference.

Sandra

Tami Labig-Duquette

My daughter Elly is 8 yo, she does not write fluently very well, but she
draws beautiful pictures :) She has pen pals all over the place, they share
pics, (drawn and photo), stickers and other things. I made a very dear
friend with one of her pen pals :) and would have missed knowing such a
wonderful warm person! It also encourages her to write and learn about where
other people live. I see more benefits other than what I pointed out, so its
more than just a write a letter thing.
Indiana Tami

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
~Ghandi

Try out this fun site!
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=angel1bunny




>From: freeform@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>CC: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT unschooling:
>Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 19:17:06 -0700
>
>
>
>On Sat, 8 Sep 2001 18:21:27 -0700 "R Meyers" <livinglighthouse@...>
>writes:
> > Let's say he isn't writing anything so you suggest getting a penpal,
>
>Why would you suggest getting a penpal to a child who isn't writing
>anything?
>
>daron


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Sharon Rudd

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
> If I watch "too much" TV, will the reception become
> fuzzy?

No. But MY reception will.
Sharon

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Sharon Rudd

--- Tami Labig-Duquette <labigduquette@...>
wrote:
> My daughter Elly is 8 yo, she does not write
> fluently very well, but she
> draws beautiful pictures :) > Indiana Tami

I've seen a nice sample of Elly's writing. She writes
just fine.

Love, Sharon

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Diane

Sandra:

This is in response to several messages recently. Thank you for continuing to
discuss patiently, firmly, and kindly with someone many of us have just written
off and don't even try to answer any more.

Thanks for your continuing support of this board and everyone on it.

:-) Diane

Jon and Rue Kream

Hi Bridget - Thank you for answering :). ~Rue

-----Original Message-----
From: Bridget E Coffman [mailto:rumpleteasermom@...]
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 9:37 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT
unschooling:


On Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:02:43 -0400 "Jon and Rue Kream"
<skreams@...> writes:
> Ok. So did the kids say, "We'd like to make sure we're doing enough
'work'
> " or did you say, "Kids, I expect you to do a certain amount of work.


Actually I said that. And that is when they were assigned dishes,
vacuuming, cleaning the bathroom and several outside chores. Of course
that list came about because my dear husband can't leave things be until
the kids do them. He would wash the dishes, I would get mad because they
hadn't done them and they would say, well we were going to but then dad
did them first. So now, HE knows what he is not supposed to do.

>Let's
> come to an agreement on what you think is a reasonable amount." ? I
> seriously am not picking on you. I am just trying to make sure I
> understand what you are saying. ~Rue
>

No that's not quite what was said about the 'school' stuff. I think it
was something like, "I want to start college classes next semester, what
do I need to do to get ready." From there we worked out some things she
should do to 'practice' for what will be expected of her in college. She
has the option to not do some of it. If she does not do any of it
(including the weeks chores) then she looses some autonomy. Not because
she didn't do her 'schoolwork' but because she didn't do ANYTHING. The
job sheet is pretty specific on chores but very nonspecific on other
things. If nothing she did in the entire week fit any of the categories,
she has a problem and needs to look at it. We also wave the list if she
is doing something else that is cool but doesn't fit the list or if we
are out of the house too much.
But the list itself is more a way to watch her symptoms than an effort to
control her. She is just coming off a serious allergy attack that we
noticed because her functioning levels dropped. Without the list, we may
not have noticed as soon. We also think we have pinpointed the source of
her headaches (maybe, I hope.)
My middle child, doesn't need the list but does it anyway just because.
Sometimes I think it is a competition thing with her sister but other
times I think she thinks it is a game.
My son, is not unschooled. He was until this past January and I think he
was okay but when my mom moved in next door, she started taking him over
there for a couple of hours a day. She thinks he needs the structure
even though I don't. I think it isn't hurting him and he will be fine
either way. He likes the attention he gets from grandma so he like going
there and it is working out for all of us.
So, two out of my three are unschooled. And the third was and will be
again soon.

Rue - thank you for actually taking the time to listen to what I am
saying and ask for clarification.

Bridget

ps - I was thinking last night, if you all want to insist that I am not
'unschooling' that's okay by me. Even though what I am doing is pretty
well described on the unschooling.com site, I have never much cared for
the term myself. But that has to do with my fussiness about language.
Unschooling as a word says 'not educating' to me, the way wireless says
without wires to some others (long story, don't ask). I prefer to think
of us as living and learning, in that order.

~~~~If electricity comes from electrons...does that mean that morality
comes from morons?~~~~
I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
Some letter of that After-life to spell;
And by and by my Soul returned to me,
And answered, "I Myself am Heaven and Hell." -- The Rubaiyat


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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/9/2001 1:44:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


>
> My children aren't my enemies, nor bad otherlings who need to be made to
> become adult people when I say they're ready. They're good people already.
>
> They help because they want to. They help me because they trust me, and if
> I
> say "This is important" or "I'm worried that this won't get done," they
> help
> me the same way I help them when something is important to them or worrying
> them.
>
> It's not a big adjustment. It's a small adjustement that makes a huge
> difference.
>
>

EXACTLY how it goes in our family. . . its mutual respect, and oh, have I
heard the warning of "just wait till shes a teenager". . . but the bottom
line is she has lived with respect (yes, I am human and make mistakes) all of
her life, and is happy to help out when I say I need some help.

lovemary


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tami Labig-Duquette

Sharon,
Yes she does, doesn't she? :)
indiana Tami

"You must be the change you wish to see in the world"
~Ghandi

Try out this fun site!
http://www.neopets.com/refer.phtml?username=angel1bunny




>From: Sharon Rudd <bearspawprint@...>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Writing wasRe: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who say I am NOT
>unschooling:
>Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 10:57:32 -0700 (PDT)
>
>
>--- Tami Labig-Duquette <labigduquette@...>
>wrote:
> > My daughter Elly is 8 yo, she does not write
> > fluently very well, but she
> > draws beautiful pictures :) > Indiana Tami
>
>I've seen a nice sample of Elly's writing. She writes
>just fine.
>
>Love, Sharon
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
>http://im.yahoo.com


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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Fetteroll

on 9/9/01 2:08 PM, [email protected] at
[email protected] wrote:

> Are you really
> saying that you do not teach you children that actions have consequences?

Life teaches kids that actions have consequences.

There's a difference between imposed and natural consequences.

Squishing the bread in the store and having the manager descend on us is
natural. We have no control over his actions. They're a natural response to
our actions.

Taking away car privileges are imposed. That particular consequence doesn't
naturally arise from your daughter's actions. You could choose (or not
choose!) to impose that or any consequence. She is well aware that the power
to impose the consequences or not is in your control.

A *natural* consequence of not doing chores is whatever naturally results
from not doing them: dirty toilets, garbage spilling onto the floor,
irritated mom. Most kids don't really care about the natural consequences
(except mom getting irritated *if* mom treats their feelings with as much
respect as she would like them to treat her feelings) so many parents resort
to imposed consequences. Taking away or allowing car privileges is no
different than grades. They are both coercion to force others to do what we
want them to or behave as if they cared about the things we want them to.

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 9/9/01 2:08 PM, Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...> wrote:

> You have
> decided that I am not an unschooler no matter what I say and therefore,
> everything I say must be coming from some authoritarian parent.

If something is not white does that mean it must therefore be black? Why
does being not an unschooler mean someone must consider you authoritarian?

That doesn't mean there haven't been suggestions that some things you say
you do look like control to others. But it doesn't logically flow that being
"not an unschooler" therefore means being authoritarian.

I think if you're going to insist that the label of unschooler fits you you
need to explain how "as long as it meets my basic standards of HOW MUCH" and
"they have to write (physically)" fit in with child led learning.

Joyce