Re: respect
Pam Hartley
I don't think unquestioning or instant obedience is a useful trait to teach
young humans who are going to need to be their own masters before any of us
parents are ready. :) We're in this to teach life skills, and who wants a
bunch of obedience adults running around? Look where that gets us! <g>
I think obedience is a fine thing to teach dogs and horses, however.
Respect to me boils down almost entirely to the golden rule, karma, or
whatever else we want to call it: Treat others as you would like to be
treated, because that's what's going to happen anyway. (Hmm, maybe we should
call that Golden Karma <eg>).
So, if your husband "obeys" the children -- i.e, complies with their
reasonable requests for time, attention, things, "instantly" he may find
that sooner or later the children will respect him in the same way. (Maybe
not, personalities will differ).
If your husband breaks promises (intentionally or through forgetfulness),
says, "in a minute" and forgets (I'm horribly guilty of that one because I
have a hard focus, it's something I'm trying VERY hard to retrain myself
on), says, "you didn't say please" to them but doesn't say "please" when he
asks them for something, or expects them to give a great deal more than they
get from him (or even AS MUCH as they get -- the balance from a parent
giving time or attention or services to a young child is necessarily much
greater than the reciprocal), it all boils down to reasonable and
unreasonable expectations.
In this household, kindness and safety and honesty (my work in progress) are
the key points. Obedience doesn't even make the top 10, except for the
puppy. <g>
Pam
----------
young humans who are going to need to be their own masters before any of us
parents are ready. :) We're in this to teach life skills, and who wants a
bunch of obedience adults running around? Look where that gets us! <g>
I think obedience is a fine thing to teach dogs and horses, however.
Respect to me boils down almost entirely to the golden rule, karma, or
whatever else we want to call it: Treat others as you would like to be
treated, because that's what's going to happen anyway. (Hmm, maybe we should
call that Golden Karma <eg>).
So, if your husband "obeys" the children -- i.e, complies with their
reasonable requests for time, attention, things, "instantly" he may find
that sooner or later the children will respect him in the same way. (Maybe
not, personalities will differ).
If your husband breaks promises (intentionally or through forgetfulness),
says, "in a minute" and forgets (I'm horribly guilty of that one because I
have a hard focus, it's something I'm trying VERY hard to retrain myself
on), says, "you didn't say please" to them but doesn't say "please" when he
asks them for something, or expects them to give a great deal more than they
get from him (or even AS MUCH as they get -- the balance from a parent
giving time or attention or services to a young child is necessarily much
greater than the reciprocal), it all boils down to reasonable and
unreasonable expectations.
In this household, kindness and safety and honesty (my work in progress) are
the key points. Obedience doesn't even make the top 10, except for the
puppy. <g>
Pam
----------
>From: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1407
>Date: Tue, Sep 4, 2001, 1:09 PM
>
> Message: 23
> Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 14:51:43 -0400
> From: "Sheri Piersol" <sheri@...>
> Subject: What is respect?
>
> My husband and I are at odds (not uncommon) about wether the kids are
> respectful or disrespectful. I think my husband confuses obedience with
> respect. Just because the kids don't immediately obey, my husband gets upset
> because they don't respect me. I feel they do respect me, just don't always
> obey. So, how does one show respect? Is disobedience always a sign of
> disrespect? I mean the kids do obey, just not right away. I think we have a
> great amount of respect for one another, but don't want to be fooling
> myself. I love the various opinions and advice from all of you and thank you
> for your help in advance. :)
>
> ~Sheri
Ann
I think this could be a very interesting discussion.
I'm thinking about it, and will post after I think more. I'm glad this is brought
up.
Ann
I'm thinking about it, and will post after I think more. I'm glad this is brought
up.
Ann
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/4/01 4:00:36 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
family as well. I know a lot of people who think discipline is the most
important family value.
I respect a lot of people but I don't always do what they want when they
want. People are always so amazed when my son is so polite in asking for
things and saying thank you. I've always spoke to him that way. In fact I
never 'taught' him to be polite. But there was a very recent time when my
manners slipped and, surprise, so did his.
Brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
> If your husband breaks promises (intentionally or through forgetfulness),I thought that was perfect! I've gotten comments and looks from my extended
> says, "in a minute" and forgets (I'm horribly guilty of that one because I
> have a hard focus, it's something I'm trying VERY hard to retrain myself
> on), says, "you didn't say please" to them but doesn't say "please" when he
> asks them for something, or expects them to give a great deal more than they
> get from him (or even AS MUCH as they get -- the balance from a parent
> giving time or attention or services to a young child is necessarily much
> greater than the reciprocal), it all boils down to reasonable and
> unreasonable expectations.
>
family as well. I know a lot of people who think discipline is the most
important family value.
I respect a lot of people but I don't always do what they want when they
want. People are always so amazed when my son is so polite in asking for
things and saying thank you. I've always spoke to him that way. In fact I
never 'taught' him to be polite. But there was a very recent time when my
manners slipped and, surprise, so did his.
Brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
I'm curious, what do you think my definition of respect is? The only difference I can see with my definition and most of you all's definition is you think children should be respected over and above adults, while I think everyone should be respected equally.
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
So can you see why we are saying "that's not respectful to children" and you
aren't getting it?
And why it seems ludicrous when you say that you only hang out with, and are
around people that are respectful to children when most parents are NOT.
Your definition of respect is not one that is accepted by most members at
this list.
And therein lies the crux of the problem I think.
Maybe you ought to get the feel of the views here before trying to convince
other people that your views are just as valid.
So you've been living on your own since you were 15 Myranda?
I think your life has been rougher than you want to admit, and by comparison
your home is respectful of children.
That doesn't mean you couldn't do a whole lot of thinking and changing and
try to understand the DEEP level of respect that is being discussed here.
Ren
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Myranda
From: starsuncloud@...
So can you see why we are saying "that's not respectful to children" and you
aren't getting it?
And why it seems ludicrous when you say that you only hang out with, and are
around people that are respectful to children when most parents are NOT.
Your definition of respect is not one that is accepted by most members at
this list.
And therein lies the crux of the problem I think.
Maybe you ought to get the feel of the views here before trying to convince
other people that your views are just as valid.
So you've been living on your own since you were 15 Myranda?
I think your life has been rougher than you want to admit, and by comparison
your home is respectful of children.
That doesn't mean you couldn't do a whole lot of thinking and changing and
try to understand the DEEP level of respect that is being discussed here.
Ren
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
~~~~ Don't forget! If you change topics, change the subject line! ~~~~
If you have questions, concerns or problems with this list, please email the moderator, Joyce Fetteroll (fetteroll@...), or the list owner, Helen Hegener (HEM-Editor@...).
To unsubscribe from this group, click on the following link or address an email to:
[email protected]
Visit the Unschooling website: http://www.unschooling.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/02 2:11:28 PM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I'm curious, what do you think my definition of respect is? The only
difference I can see with my definition and most of you all's definition is
you think children should be respected over and above adults, while I think
everyone should be respected equally. >>
How did you come to this faulty conclusion?
Seems that if you think an adults right to hit a child is equal to a child's
right to enjoy safety, you DON'T have the level of respect for children that
is being advocated here.
Let me go on......
Your son has a vision problem that prevents him from owning a game boy?
I have a hard time with that. Could you tell us specifically what the ailment
or problem is that would make it impossible for him to EVER play a gameboy
but make other video games alright?
Was it simply one doctor's opinion that you are willing to live by? Or is
this a real live problem that would truly damage him?
Respect for a child in my book means problem solving ways to get them the
items they need/want.
When he was at the store, asking for a gameboy, or any other item, was the
answer "You really want that, don't you? Let's think of a way to make it
work, because I don't have the money right now"
Helping children have access to this world is respect. Not above mine
(although with young children you damn well better be able to put your own
needs on hold a lot of the time) but then, if I want something, I don't have
to ask someone bigger than I for said item.
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< I'm curious, what do you think my definition of respect is? The only
difference I can see with my definition and most of you all's definition is
you think children should be respected over and above adults, while I think
everyone should be respected equally. >>
How did you come to this faulty conclusion?
Seems that if you think an adults right to hit a child is equal to a child's
right to enjoy safety, you DON'T have the level of respect for children that
is being advocated here.
Let me go on......
Your son has a vision problem that prevents him from owning a game boy?
I have a hard time with that. Could you tell us specifically what the ailment
or problem is that would make it impossible for him to EVER play a gameboy
but make other video games alright?
Was it simply one doctor's opinion that you are willing to live by? Or is
this a real live problem that would truly damage him?
Respect for a child in my book means problem solving ways to get them the
items they need/want.
When he was at the store, asking for a gameboy, or any other item, was the
answer "You really want that, don't you? Let's think of a way to make it
work, because I don't have the money right now"
Helping children have access to this world is respect. Not above mine
(although with young children you damn well better be able to put your own
needs on hold a lot of the time) but then, if I want something, I don't have
to ask someone bigger than I for said item.
Ren
Pam Hartley
----------
just plain wrong.
What has been said, repeatedly, patiently, and obviously uselessly, is that
a child's right to living without pain supercedes an adult's right to cause
the child pain.
Are we about at the stage where the list moderator should consider this
intentional disruption of the list's purpose with appropriate action, or am
I over-reactive?
Pam
>From: [email protected]This is wrong. I don't even have to say "I think it's wrong" because it's
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 2542
>Date: Thu, Oct 24, 2002, 12:10 PM
>
> I'm curious, what do you think my definition of respect is? The only
> difference I can see with my definition and most of you all's definition is
> you think children should be respected over and above adults, while I think
> everyone should be respected equally.
just plain wrong.
What has been said, repeatedly, patiently, and obviously uselessly, is that
a child's right to living without pain supercedes an adult's right to cause
the child pain.
Are we about at the stage where the list moderator should consider this
intentional disruption of the list's purpose with appropriate action, or am
I over-reactive?
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/24/02 7:55:31 PM Central Daylight Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
> Are we about at the stage where the list moderator should consider thisNot overreactive. I agree.
> intentional disruption of the list's purpose with appropriate action, or am
> I over-reactive?
>
> Pam
~Nancy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Todd M.
At 09:17 PM 10/24/02 -0400, you wrote:
I guess that's up to the moderator. I personally don't think Myranda HAS
been disruptive, she's just answering questions that people keep asking. If
people don't want the answers she has, they shouldn't ask. IMO.
Todd
"A day without sunshine is, like, Night"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
> > Are we about at the stage where the list moderator should consider this==
> > intentional disruption of the list's purpose with appropriate action, or am
> > I over-reactive?
> >
> > Pam
>
>Not overreactive. I agree.
>~Nancy
I guess that's up to the moderator. I personally don't think Myranda HAS
been disruptive, she's just answering questions that people keep asking. If
people don't want the answers she has, they shouldn't ask. IMO.
Todd
"A day without sunshine is, like, Night"
http://rambleman.tripod.com/index.html
Fetteroll
on 10/24/02 8:40 PM, Pam Hartley at pamhartley@... wrote:
they're discussing the same issue but they aren't. And the result is too
many questions, too many replies in too short a space of time. To me that's
not disruption. It's just ... messy.
I'm seeing frustration with not being understood boiling over into behavior
that is ... not conducive to communication -- to put it mildly. :-/
*No one* can adequately reply to this volume of mail. Things will get said
in haste that seemed to make sense but would have been reworded -- or not
said -- if given adequate time to ponder.
As a poster, to me it's pretty clear what Myranda's been saying. I have
disagreements but I've seen what she's trying to say twisted because there
are too many issues being tangled up together.
I think it's pretty clear it's difficult to discuss whether or not we have a
right to object to parenting we disagree with while also discussing what
type of parenting we should disagree with. Those are two very different
things and would be more effectively discussed separately.
It's also difficult to have a successful discussion when words aren't
meaning the same thing consistently. As one example, "Do parents have a
right to choose to parent as they wish" is being interpretted literally
sometimes and being interpretted to mean "Do parents have a right to choose
to parent as they wish without interference" other times. There's
assumptions being made that one means the other. Sometimes in the reading.
Sometimes in the writing.
Some people aren't good at accurately conveying their thoughts with words.
Sometimes we assume someone else has the same thoughts so we can speak in a
short of short hand. Some people aren't good at reading accurately and
understanding that others may be taking those short cuts or using words
differently.
And at this volume of mail even the best are going to have problems. I've
personally barely had time to read it all let alone give enough time to
actually try to understand what someone else is saying well enough to reply.
Joyce -- who's sorta a poster and sorta a moderator in the above
> Are we about at the stage where the list moderator should consider thisFrom a moderator's perspective, what I'm seeing is a case where people think
> intentional disruption of the list's purpose with appropriate action, or am
> I over-reactive?
they're discussing the same issue but they aren't. And the result is too
many questions, too many replies in too short a space of time. To me that's
not disruption. It's just ... messy.
I'm seeing frustration with not being understood boiling over into behavior
that is ... not conducive to communication -- to put it mildly. :-/
*No one* can adequately reply to this volume of mail. Things will get said
in haste that seemed to make sense but would have been reworded -- or not
said -- if given adequate time to ponder.
As a poster, to me it's pretty clear what Myranda's been saying. I have
disagreements but I've seen what she's trying to say twisted because there
are too many issues being tangled up together.
I think it's pretty clear it's difficult to discuss whether or not we have a
right to object to parenting we disagree with while also discussing what
type of parenting we should disagree with. Those are two very different
things and would be more effectively discussed separately.
It's also difficult to have a successful discussion when words aren't
meaning the same thing consistently. As one example, "Do parents have a
right to choose to parent as they wish" is being interpretted literally
sometimes and being interpretted to mean "Do parents have a right to choose
to parent as they wish without interference" other times. There's
assumptions being made that one means the other. Sometimes in the reading.
Sometimes in the writing.
Some people aren't good at accurately conveying their thoughts with words.
Sometimes we assume someone else has the same thoughts so we can speak in a
short of short hand. Some people aren't good at reading accurately and
understanding that others may be taking those short cuts or using words
differently.
And at this volume of mail even the best are going to have problems. I've
personally barely had time to read it all let alone give enough time to
actually try to understand what someone else is saying well enough to reply.
Joyce -- who's sorta a poster and sorta a moderator in the above