Re: shouting some more
Pam Hartley
So let me be sure I'm clear here -- the shouting parents here are perfectly
happy if their children shout right back at them if they, the parents, do
something the kids get angry about? Or is it only okay for the parents to
shout at the children for misdeeds? And does the whole family shout in anger
at everyone they meet (when, of course, they get angry with these people) --
neighbors, friends, the local pharmacist, when angry at THEM, too? Or do the
kids learn that this shouting at each other when angry is only for the bosom
of the family?
I have a hard time envisioning a whole family shouting at each other (and
perhaps everyone else, perhaps not), in rage, and everyone being just fine
with that. But, sometimes I suffer from a lack of imagination.
And of course I still know that my daughters, not raised to any tolerance in
this way, are in no way prepared to deal with it and it would be grossly
unfair to thrust them into that situation at their ages. AND, I would still
tell them that in my opinion any man, woman or child who shouts at them in
anger more than once or twice "in extremis" (and had better apologize
prettily and sincerely afterward, too) is not someone they need to spend
time around, but I'm comfortably sure they would feel that quite naturally.
Pam
happy if their children shout right back at them if they, the parents, do
something the kids get angry about? Or is it only okay for the parents to
shout at the children for misdeeds? And does the whole family shout in anger
at everyone they meet (when, of course, they get angry with these people) --
neighbors, friends, the local pharmacist, when angry at THEM, too? Or do the
kids learn that this shouting at each other when angry is only for the bosom
of the family?
I have a hard time envisioning a whole family shouting at each other (and
perhaps everyone else, perhaps not), in rage, and everyone being just fine
with that. But, sometimes I suffer from a lack of imagination.
And of course I still know that my daughters, not raised to any tolerance in
this way, are in no way prepared to deal with it and it would be grossly
unfair to thrust them into that situation at their ages. AND, I would still
tell them that in my opinion any man, woman or child who shouts at them in
anger more than once or twice "in extremis" (and had better apologize
prettily and sincerely afterward, too) is not someone they need to spend
time around, but I'm comfortably sure they would feel that quite naturally.
Pam
R Meyers
Like I said before Pam, you certainly are entitled to not want your children around people who shout just as I'm entitled not to want my children around narrow minded, judgmental people like yourself. But the thing that both of us would have to realize is that both of those things are in the real world and it is our job to teach our children on how to deal with people different from ourselves......whether that difference be color, religion, or values. I would much rather teach my child to deal with narrow minded people so they can better understand why they do the things they do then to completely shelter them only to have them later in life come up against someone like that and not know how to handle it. I also think that some people out there are decent wonderful people even though they may have some kind of "flaw" in our own opinion and that we would miss out on that persons good qualities if we are bit to harsh in our judgment of their whole character based on one or two character traits. I would like to think that even you have a good trait or two that you could be of good influence on my children just as I do. In closing I'd have to say that if I had to choose between someone narrow minded and judgmental or someone who shouts.........I'd big the yeller any day!
Rachel
Rachel
----- Original Message -----
From: Pam Hartley
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 7:22 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: shouting some more <g>
So let me be sure I'm clear here -- the shouting parents here are perfectly
happy if their children shout right back at them if they, the parents, do
something the kids get angry about? Or is it only okay for the parents to
shout at the children for misdeeds? And does the whole family shout in anger
at everyone they meet (when, of course, they get angry with these people) --
neighbors, friends, the local pharmacist, when angry at THEM, too? Or do the
kids learn that this shouting at each other when angry is only for the bosom
of the family?
I have a hard time envisioning a whole family shouting at each other (and
perhaps everyone else, perhaps not), in rage, and everyone being just fine
with that. But, sometimes I suffer from a lack of imagination.
And of course I still know that my daughters, not raised to any tolerance in
this way, are in no way prepared to deal with it and it would be grossly
unfair to thrust them into that situation at their ages. AND, I would still
tell them that in my opinion any man, woman or child who shouts at them in
anger more than once or twice "in extremis" (and had better apologize
prettily and sincerely afterward, too) is not someone they need to spend
time around, but I'm comfortably sure they would feel that quite naturally.
Pam
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
You can, too! Start here...
Height:
345678 ft 01234567891011in
Weight:
lbs. kg.
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
jefferson academy
> I have a hard time envisioning a whole familyOK. Rage is where you may be having a problem with
> shouting at each other (and
> perhaps everyone else, perhaps not), in rage, and
> everyone being just fine
> with that. But, sometimes I suffer from a lack of
> imagination.
your imagining here. When we yell here, there is no
rage (there may be concern, upset, exasperation, etc.
- I'm not sure I've *ever* been enraged at anyone, let
alone my family) - and yes the children are loud too -
as in "But Mom..." but loudly. The best analogy I've
heard/read to help you imagine was the one someone
gave about the large Italian family. (Not that most
Italian families are loud - but they are sometimes
portrayed that way by the media. And we are not
Italian we are American mixed breeds.) We are loud
whenever there is any emotion involved (so we're loud
*a lot*.) And if anyone thinks we're loud when we're
upset, they should hear us as we tell stories (about
our day, or that day trip we took last week, etc.) we
are all ear splittingly loud- and laugh until tears
roll down our cheeks (many things strike us as being
*very* funny.)
> And of course I still know that my daughters, notI absolutely agree! (Although they may surprise you,
> raised to any tolerance in
> this way, are in no way prepared to deal with it and
> it would be grossly
> unfair to thrust them into that situation at their
> ages.
my dd have friend from all types of families, they all
love being here, never had one not want to come
back!)And by the way neighbors do hear us - but they
love us - really. They think we're funny. (We think
we're funny too. Sometimes even in the heat of an
argument someone will say something *so* ridiculous
that it will end the argument, because we'll all be
laughing so hard - including the person who had tried
to make the statement in all seriousness a moment
before.)
AND, I would still
> tell them that in my opinion any man, woman or childI would never raise my voice to a child who was not
> who shouts at them in
> anger more than once or twice "in extremis" (and had
> better apologize
> prettily and sincerely afterward, too)
mine - but I would around a child who was not mine (if
they were here.) My dd (really except Felicity, who is
not usually loud) are all *very* loud and I'm sure
prone to shout in an argument. Anyone who can't
accept this probably stays away from them in the first
place. They have *lots* of friends though - possibly
because they are prepared to accept most people for
what they are - completely without judgement. If it
doesn't affect them, they don't care. You'd be
surprised at how many people react well to that.
is not
> someone they need to spendExactly. They should not spend time around people they
> time around, but I'm comfortably sure they would
> feel that quite naturally.
don't enjoy being around, and there is no need to be
judgmental about it. You don't like being around
someone (for *whatever* the reason) don't be around
them. Simple. Live and let live.
=====
Michele
(mom of 5dd: Justice 22, Felicity 20, Christian 18, Grace 13, Elysian (Mia)2)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com
[email protected]
On Sun, 02 Sep 2001 07:22:44 -0700 Pam Hartley
<pamhartley@...> writes:
kids, or shouting to the world when the kids are around. My kid would
completely fall apart if I shouted at her, like, "How could you do
XXXX????". She's just made that way, the overly sensitive to everything
kid. Not that I have never yelled at her, especially when life was really
hard for both of us, but I'm not proud of it, and I do think it was
damaging. I have seen families, though, who tend to commmunicate with a
lot more volume than we do, and they all seem comfortable with it, so I
don't presume to judge.
OTOH, if Cacie is in the bedroom I can shout from the bedroom, "Cacie!
Could you please give the dogs some water?" and she's fine. I can also
shout, "G- F-ing D- insurance company! Why can't they handle a simple
f-ing change of address!?!" while Cacie plays playmobil in the same room,
and she definitely alerts to my mood and often steers clear, but she
understands that she's safe and it's not directed at her... although that
part took a while.
Daron
<pamhartley@...> writes:
> So let me be sure I'm clear here -- the shouting parents here areperfectly
> happy if their children shout right back at them if they, the parents,do
> something the kids get angry about?Maybe the difference is whether you're shouting at the kids, or to the
kids, or shouting to the world when the kids are around. My kid would
completely fall apart if I shouted at her, like, "How could you do
XXXX????". She's just made that way, the overly sensitive to everything
kid. Not that I have never yelled at her, especially when life was really
hard for both of us, but I'm not proud of it, and I do think it was
damaging. I have seen families, though, who tend to commmunicate with a
lot more volume than we do, and they all seem comfortable with it, so I
don't presume to judge.
OTOH, if Cacie is in the bedroom I can shout from the bedroom, "Cacie!
Could you please give the dogs some water?" and she's fine. I can also
shout, "G- F-ing D- insurance company! Why can't they handle a simple
f-ing change of address!?!" while Cacie plays playmobil in the same room,
and she definitely alerts to my mood and often steers clear, but she
understands that she's safe and it's not directed at her... although that
part took a while.
Daron
Lynda
Hey, the first time I experienced it I thought it was WWIII! A big shock!!!
I think there are sometimes people that are simply "loud" and that results
in shouting be an acceptable form of communication for them. Hey, everyone
is different, personally I like silence and prefer any noise around me to
come from the ocean, wind, music, etc., not humans. But that's just me <g>
Lynda
I think there are sometimes people that are simply "loud" and that results
in shouting be an acceptable form of communication for them. Hey, everyone
is different, personally I like silence and prefer any noise around me to
come from the ocean, wind, music, etc., not humans. But that's just me <g>
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Pam Hartley <pamhartley@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 7:22 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: shouting some more <g>
> So let me be sure I'm clear here -- the shouting parents here are
perfectly
> happy if their children shout right back at them if they, the parents, do
> something the kids get angry about? Or is it only okay for the parents to
> shout at the children for misdeeds? And does the whole family shout in
anger
> at everyone they meet (when, of course, they get angry with these
people) --
> neighbors, friends, the local pharmacist, when angry at THEM, too? Or do
the
> kids learn that this shouting at each other when angry is only for the
bosom
> of the family?
>
> I have a hard time envisioning a whole family shouting at each other (and
> perhaps everyone else, perhaps not), in rage, and everyone being just fine
> with that. But, sometimes I suffer from a lack of imagination.
>
> And of course I still know that my daughters, not raised to any tolerance
in
> this way, are in no way prepared to deal with it and it would be grossly
> unfair to thrust them into that situation at their ages. AND, I would
still
> tell them that in my opinion any man, woman or child who shouts at them in
> anger more than once or twice "in extremis" (and had better apologize
> prettily and sincerely afterward, too) is not someone they need to spend
> time around, but I'm comfortably sure they would feel that quite
naturally.
>
> Pam
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Pam Hartley
----------
being accused of being overly open-minded, it's kind of nice! <g> But I'll
try to take it in the spirit you intended and not get a swelled-but-narrow
head over it.
By the way, my questions remain: is the shouting fully accepted as
reciprocal between parents and children? Do you all shout at other people
when you're angry at them, or just amongst yourselves?
I truly am fascinated by this subject, it's not sarcasm when I say that I
*never* would have imagined that on this of all lists people would say that
they shout in anger at their children and don't feel that it's wrong (I can
understand shouting in anger and feeling dreadful about it and trying to
stop, but the idea that it's perfectly all right to do that with your own
family is honestly astounding to me. Seriously.)
Pam, nevertheless pleased to find she can still be astounded.
>From: [email protected]It's been awhile since anyone called me narrow-minded -- since I'm always
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1402
>Date: Sun, Sep 2, 2001, 10:40 AM
>
> Like I said before Pam, you certainly are entitled to not want your
> children around people who shout just as I'm entitled not to want my
> children around narrow minded, judgmental people like yourself.
being accused of being overly open-minded, it's kind of nice! <g> But I'll
try to take it in the spirit you intended and not get a swelled-but-narrow
head over it.
> But theIs shouting a value?
> thing that both of us would have to realize is that both of those things
> are in the real world and it is our job to teach our children on how to
> deal with people different from ourselves......whether that difference be
> color, religion, or values.
By the way, my questions remain: is the shouting fully accepted as
reciprocal between parents and children? Do you all shout at other people
when you're angry at them, or just amongst yourselves?
I truly am fascinated by this subject, it's not sarcasm when I say that I
*never* would have imagined that on this of all lists people would say that
they shout in anger at their children and don't feel that it's wrong (I can
understand shouting in anger and feeling dreadful about it and trying to
stop, but the idea that it's perfectly all right to do that with your own
family is honestly astounding to me. Seriously.)
Pam, nevertheless pleased to find she can still be astounded.
Pam Hartley
----------
and don't know whether I was successful. We are not always a quiet family
<g> either, I just don't believe that yelling AT children because you are
angry is healthy -- for them or for you (generic you, not you Daron ;)
Dr. Phil McGraw was once talking to a woman who said she "couldn't control
herself" when yelling at her step-daughter. Dr. Phil said, "I'll bet you
control yourself from yelling at a Hell's Angel."
So that's what I was getting at with shouting at children: We adults do it
because we can. They're weaker and we need not fear reprisals. If a family
all really DO yell at each other, children at parents, too ("Mom! How COULD
you step on my lego box! Can't you watch where you're putting your big
feet!? Be more careful! You make me crazy!"), I'd find it, umm, distracting
<g> for me, but at least fairer.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Yes, exactly. Thank you, Daron -- I kept trying to make these distinctions
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1402
>Date: Sun, Sep 2, 2001, 10:40 AM
>
> <pamhartley@...> writes:
>> So let me be sure I'm clear here -- the shouting parents here are
> perfectly
>> happy if their children shout right back at them if they, the parents,
> do
>> something the kids get angry about?
>
> Maybe the difference is whether you're shouting at the kids, or to the
> kids, or shouting to the world when the kids are around.
and don't know whether I was successful. We are not always a quiet family
<g> either, I just don't believe that yelling AT children because you are
angry is healthy -- for them or for you (generic you, not you Daron ;)
Dr. Phil McGraw was once talking to a woman who said she "couldn't control
herself" when yelling at her step-daughter. Dr. Phil said, "I'll bet you
control yourself from yelling at a Hell's Angel."
So that's what I was getting at with shouting at children: We adults do it
because we can. They're weaker and we need not fear reprisals. If a family
all really DO yell at each other, children at parents, too ("Mom! How COULD
you step on my lego box! Can't you watch where you're putting your big
feet!? Be more careful! You make me crazy!"), I'd find it, umm, distracting
<g> for me, but at least fairer.
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/2/01 1:40:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
a question of defining the yelling. i thought what you, pam, were saying was
that you wouldn't send your kids to a home where yelling at kids was the
norm. not in the yelling over a noise sense, but yelling to scare or bully or
otherwise exert parental 'power' over children. i've yelled at my son, but
i'd rather not. he's yelled at me, too. but i've been in homes where parents
are always yelling at and scolding their kids. yelling and screaming to be
precise, and the kids aren't allowed to communicate that way. if that's what
you're talking about, i agree.
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pamhartley@... writes:
> We are not always a quiet familyi've been reading all of these and i wondered from the beginning if it wasn't
> <g> either, I just don't believe that yelling AT children because you are
> angry is healthy -- for them or for you
a question of defining the yelling. i thought what you, pam, were saying was
that you wouldn't send your kids to a home where yelling at kids was the
norm. not in the yelling over a noise sense, but yelling to scare or bully or
otherwise exert parental 'power' over children. i've yelled at my son, but
i'd rather not. he's yelled at me, too. but i've been in homes where parents
are always yelling at and scolding their kids. yelling and screaming to be
precise, and the kids aren't allowed to communicate that way. if that's what
you're talking about, i agree.
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
<< Dr. Phil McGraw was once talking to a woman who said she "couldn't control
herself" when yelling at her step-daughter. Dr. Phil said, "I'll bet you
control yourself from yelling at a Hell's Angel." >>
Good one!!
I let my kids experess themselves strongly at me, so this isn't out of the
question: "Mom! How COULD you step on my lego box! Can't you watch where
you're putting your big
feet!? Be more careful! You make me crazy!"
If they get angry enough to be saying "I'm tired of ...." or "SOMEONE moved
my..." or "I can't find my..." I let them finish their tirade and if I did
the bad thing, I say "I'm sorry, I did that. It's in the den." Or whatever
it is. Sometimes I ask if they could try to ask nicer next time. But
usually when someone comes to that point they are tired, hungry, sick or
pressed for time. And since I expect them to keep their word and be punctual
AND I let them sleep late, sometimes I myself have contributed to the
situation. So it's the same as if another adult friend of mine were freaking
out about not having the key or checkbook or receipt or phone number needed
for the imminent need. I let them vent and then we fix the situation up.
And over the years I've become increasingly better at thinking two or three
thoughts before I express my own personal tired, hungry, sick,
deadline-pressing frustration.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
herself" when yelling at her step-daughter. Dr. Phil said, "I'll bet you
control yourself from yelling at a Hell's Angel." >>
Good one!!
I let my kids experess themselves strongly at me, so this isn't out of the
question: "Mom! How COULD you step on my lego box! Can't you watch where
you're putting your big
feet!? Be more careful! You make me crazy!"
If they get angry enough to be saying "I'm tired of ...." or "SOMEONE moved
my..." or "I can't find my..." I let them finish their tirade and if I did
the bad thing, I say "I'm sorry, I did that. It's in the den." Or whatever
it is. Sometimes I ask if they could try to ask nicer next time. But
usually when someone comes to that point they are tired, hungry, sick or
pressed for time. And since I expect them to keep their word and be punctual
AND I let them sleep late, sometimes I myself have contributed to the
situation. So it's the same as if another adult friend of mine were freaking
out about not having the key or checkbook or receipt or phone number needed
for the imminent need. I let them vent and then we fix the situation up.
And over the years I've become increasingly better at thinking two or three
thoughts before I express my own personal tired, hungry, sick,
deadline-pressing frustration.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
<< I would much rather teach my child to deal with narrow minded people so
they can better understand why they do the things they do then to completely
shelter them only to have them later in life come up against someone like
that and not know how to handle it. >>
To the extent of (stretching this a little more) sending them to hang out
with gangsters and robbers so they won't be surprised when they're older?
That would be really open-minded. Everybody has their limits.
<<I also think that some people out there are decent wonderful people even
though they may have some kind of "flaw" in our own opinion and that we would
miss out on that persons good qualities if we are bit to harsh in our
judgment of their whole character based on one or two character traits. >>
I have some friends who are druggies and I'm not sending my kids to stay with
them. I knew some of their really good traits and talents, but until my kids
are older they don't need the exposure to unpredictable behavior and
illegality.
<<In closing I'd have to say that if I had to choose between someone narrow
minded and judgmental or someone who shouts.........I'd big the yeller any
day!>>
If I could find someone with no other characteristics, habits or behaviors at
all except for being narrow minded or shouting, I might figure out how to
make such a choice. People tend to have thousands of traits, and some people
are very sensitive in the areas of one or ten of them. Some would not let
their kids hang out with bigots who used "the N word." Some would not want
them with dope smokers. Some would avoid houses with poisonous snakes. Pam
has a great aversion to peope who yell rudely to their children. Why does
that make her worthy of public insult? It was kind of an e-mail version of
yelling at her. She took it pretty well! But I'm wondering why it was
offered.
This seemed unwarranted:
-=-Like I said before Pam, you certainly are entitled to not want your
children around people who shout just as I'm entitled not to want my children
around narrow minded, judgmental people like yourself. -=- but perhaps I
missed a post earlier on in which Pam offered a grave insult to anyone who
had ever yelled accidently, and questioned their parentage and threatened to
distance-train their dog to piss in their Wheaties.
My husband grew up in a very quiet, yet very cold family. I grew up in a
warmer, louder family. At first, raised voices upset him. It represented
fighting to him. He got over some of that, and I got over some of the
loudness.
Sandra
they can better understand why they do the things they do then to completely
shelter them only to have them later in life come up against someone like
that and not know how to handle it. >>
To the extent of (stretching this a little more) sending them to hang out
with gangsters and robbers so they won't be surprised when they're older?
That would be really open-minded. Everybody has their limits.
<<I also think that some people out there are decent wonderful people even
though they may have some kind of "flaw" in our own opinion and that we would
miss out on that persons good qualities if we are bit to harsh in our
judgment of their whole character based on one or two character traits. >>
I have some friends who are druggies and I'm not sending my kids to stay with
them. I knew some of their really good traits and talents, but until my kids
are older they don't need the exposure to unpredictable behavior and
illegality.
<<In closing I'd have to say that if I had to choose between someone narrow
minded and judgmental or someone who shouts.........I'd big the yeller any
day!>>
If I could find someone with no other characteristics, habits or behaviors at
all except for being narrow minded or shouting, I might figure out how to
make such a choice. People tend to have thousands of traits, and some people
are very sensitive in the areas of one or ten of them. Some would not let
their kids hang out with bigots who used "the N word." Some would not want
them with dope smokers. Some would avoid houses with poisonous snakes. Pam
has a great aversion to peope who yell rudely to their children. Why does
that make her worthy of public insult? It was kind of an e-mail version of
yelling at her. She took it pretty well! But I'm wondering why it was
offered.
This seemed unwarranted:
-=-Like I said before Pam, you certainly are entitled to not want your
children around people who shout just as I'm entitled not to want my children
around narrow minded, judgmental people like yourself. -=- but perhaps I
missed a post earlier on in which Pam offered a grave insult to anyone who
had ever yelled accidently, and questioned their parentage and threatened to
distance-train their dog to piss in their Wheaties.
My husband grew up in a very quiet, yet very cold family. I grew up in a
warmer, louder family. At first, raised voices upset him. It represented
fighting to him. He got over some of that, and I got over some of the
loudness.
Sandra
[email protected]
< I would never raise my voice to a child who was not
mine - but I would around a child who was not mine (if
they were here.) >>
I have. As part of a group. If the kids are too loud too late, the second
warning has sometimes not been as sweet and friendly as the first.
Once I came in after I had asked kids to PLEASE just go to sleep, because
they weren't getting along so well and they were making too much noise, and
they weren't asleep. I wasn't LOUD, but I was mostly enraged, and said if
they didn't want to listen to me they could stop coming over.
Well they didn't want THAT, and they did, truly, feel bad that they had woken
me up a third time, and they were good guys, just young (12ish). At that
point I was grumpy enough that if they had said "You yelled at me, I shall
never revisit your home, I'd've said "fine."
These are kids whose parents don't reciprocate (which is fine), and who are
here A Lot. They hardly qualify as company after a couple of years.
Sandra
mine - but I would around a child who was not mine (if
they were here.) >>
I have. As part of a group. If the kids are too loud too late, the second
warning has sometimes not been as sweet and friendly as the first.
Once I came in after I had asked kids to PLEASE just go to sleep, because
they weren't getting along so well and they were making too much noise, and
they weren't asleep. I wasn't LOUD, but I was mostly enraged, and said if
they didn't want to listen to me they could stop coming over.
Well they didn't want THAT, and they did, truly, feel bad that they had woken
me up a third time, and they were good guys, just young (12ish). At that
point I was grumpy enough that if they had said "You yelled at me, I shall
never revisit your home, I'd've said "fine."
These are kids whose parents don't reciprocate (which is fine), and who are
here A Lot. They hardly qualify as company after a couple of years.
Sandra
jefferson academy
>In our house it's not a question of "could you
> << Dr. Phil McGraw was once talking to a woman who
> said she "couldn't control
> herself" when yelling at her step-daughter. Dr. Phil
> said, "I'll bet you
> control yourself from yelling at a Hell's Angel." >>
>
control" yes, of course. (Just let the phone ring.) It
is how we express ourselves - and we don't feel bad
about it. (In fact past disagreements later the source
of much 'remember that time' laughter. You can have
the judgement that you are not tolerant of it. You can
have the opinion that you wouldn't want to spend any
time around us because of it. And we are fine with
that. We are comfortable with who we are - as you are
free to be comfortable with traits you have that we
don't think are particularly healthy. Who you are does
not affect us any more than who we are affects you.
Again, live and let live.
=====
Michele
(mom of 5dd: Justice 22, Felicity 20, Christian 18, Grace 13, Elysian (Mia)2)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com
jefferson academy
> sending them to hang outAre you really trying to some how equate being a loud
> with gangsters and robbers so they won't be
> surprised when they're older?
> That would be really open-minded. Everybody has
> their limits.
>
>
> I have some friends who are druggies and I'm not
> sending my kids to stay with
> them. I knew some of their really good traits and
> talents, but until my kids
> are older they don't need the exposure to
> unpredictable behavior and
> illegality.
>
yelling family with "gangsters, robbers, druggies, and
illegality"?
=====
Michele
(mom of 5dd: Justice 22, Felicity 20, Christian 18, Grace 13, Elysian (Mia)2)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/2/01 2:00:17 PM, jeffersonacademy@... writes:
<< Who you are does
not affect us any more than who we are affects you. >>
But who you are might affect her young daughters, if the daughters were there
alone with your family and had never heard yelling.
The first time Kirby was around drunken adults who were "conversing"
(insulting each other loudly) he was really afraid. My sister's kids were
just calmy watching TV--they had obviously heard it all before.
<<Are you really trying to some how equate being a loud
yelling family with "gangsters, robbers, druggies, and
illegality"? >>
I am saying that if a mom says she would prefer not to have her young
children visit in a home in which the parents yell at their children (not
"HEY, come eat ice cream!" but "YOU IDIOT!" and I thought that was clear from
the beginning), that if another person says kids need to be exposed to other
families' practices, that if "other families' practices" goes from kind of
yelling to blatant sexual abuse or crack-house-management, I think EVERY
mother will draw her own line somewhere.
Pam is being overly criticized for drawing hers at parents who yell.
Why is that line bad, but other lines are good?
If no lines are bad, and kids should be exposed to other lifestyles, should I
send my kids to do volunteer work at the crack house now so they'll not be
surprised when they come across it later in life?
From Pam's quiet-family point of view, abusive-in-face yelling is a bad
thing. It seems (perhaps I am wrong) that people here are justifying
yelling, but they're not talking about marine-drill-sergeant yelling. If so,
the argument is missing its point and the insults on Pam are unwarranted
(something else I've been saying).
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< Who you are does
not affect us any more than who we are affects you. >>
But who you are might affect her young daughters, if the daughters were there
alone with your family and had never heard yelling.
The first time Kirby was around drunken adults who were "conversing"
(insulting each other loudly) he was really afraid. My sister's kids were
just calmy watching TV--they had obviously heard it all before.
<<Are you really trying to some how equate being a loud
yelling family with "gangsters, robbers, druggies, and
illegality"? >>
I am saying that if a mom says she would prefer not to have her young
children visit in a home in which the parents yell at their children (not
"HEY, come eat ice cream!" but "YOU IDIOT!" and I thought that was clear from
the beginning), that if another person says kids need to be exposed to other
families' practices, that if "other families' practices" goes from kind of
yelling to blatant sexual abuse or crack-house-management, I think EVERY
mother will draw her own line somewhere.
Pam is being overly criticized for drawing hers at parents who yell.
Why is that line bad, but other lines are good?
If no lines are bad, and kids should be exposed to other lifestyles, should I
send my kids to do volunteer work at the crack house now so they'll not be
surprised when they come across it later in life?
From Pam's quiet-family point of view, abusive-in-face yelling is a bad
thing. It seems (perhaps I am wrong) that people here are justifying
yelling, but they're not talking about marine-drill-sergeant yelling. If so,
the argument is missing its point and the insults on Pam are unwarranted
(something else I've been saying).
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Johanna SanInocencio
Pam, I don't think you are understanding what we are saying. My children
often shout and ar loud, but it is not in anger most of the time. One son
just gets louder when he is excited about something. There is often so much
activity going on, we often shout to one another from one end of the house
to the other. We are rowdy, but not angry and violent. My grandmother was
very English, quiet and reserved. Never showed any emotion. When I met my
husband's family I was struck by the difference. It was often loud, but I
always felt accepted and loved, not wondering if anyone cared. Somehow you
are aquating shouting with anger and this is not the case.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
often shout and ar loud, but it is not in anger most of the time. One son
just gets louder when he is excited about something. There is often so much
activity going on, we often shout to one another from one end of the house
to the other. We are rowdy, but not angry and violent. My grandmother was
very English, quiet and reserved. Never showed any emotion. When I met my
husband's family I was struck by the difference. It was often loud, but I
always felt accepted and loved, not wondering if anyone cared. Somehow you
are aquating shouting with anger and this is not the case.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pam Hartley" <pamhartley@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 9:22 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: shouting some more <g>
> So let me be sure I'm clear here -- the shouting parents here are
perfectly
> happy if their children shout right back at them if they, the parents, do
> something the kids get angry about? Or is it only okay for the parents to
> shout at the children for misdeeds? And does the whole family shout in
anger
> at everyone they meet (when, of course, they get angry with these
people) --
> neighbors, friends, the local pharmacist, when angry at THEM, too? Or do
the
> kids learn that this shouting at each other when angry is only for the
bosom
> of the family?
>
> I have a hard time envisioning a whole family shouting at each other (and
> perhaps everyone else, perhaps not), in rage, and everyone being just fine
> with that. But, sometimes I suffer from a lack of imagination.
>
> And of course I still know that my daughters, not raised to any tolerance
in
> this way, are in no way prepared to deal with it and it would be grossly
> unfair to thrust them into that situation at their ages. AND, I would
still
> tell them that in my opinion any man, woman or child who shouts at them in
> anger more than once or twice "in extremis" (and had better apologize
> prettily and sincerely afterward, too) is not someone they need to spend
> time around, but I'm comfortably sure they would feel that quite
naturally.
>
> Pam
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
jefferson academy
> But who you are might affect her young daughters, ifYes, I agree here. (But I do doubt the way our family
> the daughters were there
> alone with your family and had never heard yelling.
>
> The first time Kirby was around drunken adults who
> were "conversing"
> (insulting each other loudly) he was really afraid.
> My sister's kids were
> just calmy watching TV--they had obviously heard it
behaves would adversely effect her daughters. As I
said, we've never had a child not want to come back.
We are loud always - but it does not involve
disagreements very often - and I don't do name
calling. We say what you would probably say - but we
say it real loud, you could definately call it
yelling.)
I think EVERY
> mother will draw her own line somewhere.Yes. Every mother will draw that line somewhere, just
as every mother will draw some line on autonomy and
should be free to choose that line. I suppose that
line being drawn at yelling has caused some of us
yellers to consider her 'judgemental' because she
obviously has judged families who yell to be somehow
inappropriate. But I do see your point.
> Why is that line bad, but other lines are good?Perhaps because other lines may be more reasonable.
It really is like my saying 'I don't want to expose my
children to you because they may be adversely effected
by a judgemental person.' Or 'I don't want them around
you because you sometimes drink a glass of wine and we
are non-drinkers.'
> From Pam's quiet-family point of view,Not all yelling is abusive - but maybe you think it
> abusive-in-face yelling is a bad
> thing.
is. If I (and my dd) say what you (and your dd) say -
but we say it *loudly* and with great animation: is
that abusive - in your opinion?
It seems (perhaps I am wrong) that people
> here are justifyingBut I do think Pam is saying the above example is
> yelling, but they're not talking about
> marine-drill-sergeant yelling. If so,
> the argument is missing its point and the insults on
> Pam are unwarranted
> (something else I've been saying).
abusive - and is therefore saying the loud among us
are abusive. Not nice.
=====
Michele
(mom of 5dd: Justice 22, Felicity 20, Christian 18, Grace 13, Elysian (Mia)2)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com
Pam Hartley
Sandra wrote:
she's not as verbal and not as old) expresses herself strongly and she does
-- she sits down next to me and touches me (holds my hand, puts her hand on
my shoulder, etc.) and talks to me in a low and serious lecture-y voice that
unfortunately sounds a lot like me when I'm feeling like a grown-up. <g>
Pam
>I let my kids experess themselves strongly at me, so this isn't out of theand it made me think about whether Brit (and to a limited extent Mikey,
>question: "Mom! How COULD you step on my lego box! Can't you watch where
>you're putting your big
>feet!? Be more careful! You make me crazy!"
she's not as verbal and not as old) expresses herself strongly and she does
-- she sits down next to me and touches me (holds my hand, puts her hand on
my shoulder, etc.) and talks to me in a low and serious lecture-y voice that
unfortunately sounds a lot like me when I'm feeling like a grown-up. <g>
Pam
[email protected]
In a message dated 9/2/2001 2:49:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
brendaclaspell@... writes:
get upset if I am yelled back at by the kids. . and they know it. I still
dont like that i do it, and I suppose it really is not on equal footing
because they can yell back. Its something I continually work on. . . I
appreciate you bringing up the Dr. Phil comment. . . food for thought.
lovemary
Master your responses to external events--don't attempt to control them
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
brendaclaspell@... writes:
> and the kids aren't allowed to communicate that way. if that's whatI see the point made now and agree completely. . . I do also yell, but I dont
> you're talking about, i agree.
>
> brenda
>
get upset if I am yelled back at by the kids. . and they know it. I still
dont like that i do it, and I suppose it really is not on equal footing
because they can yell back. Its something I continually work on. . . I
appreciate you bringing up the Dr. Phil comment. . . food for thought.
lovemary
Master your responses to external events--don't attempt to control them
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]