Re: Siblings
Becky Wollenslegel
Hi Susan! You said:
"I've been lurking....things have been SO crazy here....but I just had to
ditto Jill's message. People assume a big negative for me with HS is not
getting a break from the children. I find I'm worn out from the baby and
preschool age child....But I LOVE having my 7.5 year old around. It's a joy
to have her be here and stay closely connected to her younger siblings
rather than being pulled into the 'world of school' while the little ones
are home. And she and I have learned to give each other space and 'breaks."
So true!
One of the reason my daughter - at 9th grade- decided to homeschool was
because she had seen the bond between her brothers (12yo & 1yo) grow and she
felt left out. The baby really didn't know her! The boys are still very
close (at 18 & 7) in spite of the age differance. Although when Cole asked
last night if he had plans for 5:00, Cody replied "Why do you ask?" I guess
he's learning that sometimes older brothers will offer activities that are
more work than fun!
Becky in Ohio
"I've been lurking....things have been SO crazy here....but I just had to
ditto Jill's message. People assume a big negative for me with HS is not
getting a break from the children. I find I'm worn out from the baby and
preschool age child....But I LOVE having my 7.5 year old around. It's a joy
to have her be here and stay closely connected to her younger siblings
rather than being pulled into the 'world of school' while the little ones
are home. And she and I have learned to give each other space and 'breaks."
So true!
One of the reason my daughter - at 9th grade- decided to homeschool was
because she had seen the bond between her brothers (12yo & 1yo) grow and she
felt left out. The baby really didn't know her! The boys are still very
close (at 18 & 7) in spite of the age differance. Although when Cole asked
last night if he had plans for 5:00, Cody replied "Why do you ask?" I guess
he's learning that sometimes older brothers will offer activities that are
more work than fun!
Becky in Ohio
Jon and Rue Kream
My sister has asked me to put a question on the list. She has two kids,
Drue who is four, and Declan who is two. She is expecting another baby
(and Drue has said that she's not happy about it and that she wants my
sister to herself). From here on I'm quoting my sister:
"It is unheard of for a day to go by without her hitting, punching, kicking,
and yelling. She is soooooo mean to him. When we try to talk to her she says
"I'm not listening to you at all". She gets mad at him for everything. If he
comes in their room she flips out for him to get out. She will punch him so
fast and hard before I can stop her. If he looks at a toy she's
holding...BAM. We don't know what to do. He is so sweet to her, too. Any
ideas? "
~Rue
Drue who is four, and Declan who is two. She is expecting another baby
(and Drue has said that she's not happy about it and that she wants my
sister to herself). From here on I'm quoting my sister:
"It is unheard of for a day to go by without her hitting, punching, kicking,
and yelling. She is soooooo mean to him. When we try to talk to her she says
"I'm not listening to you at all". She gets mad at him for everything. If he
comes in their room she flips out for him to get out. She will punch him so
fast and hard before I can stop her. If he looks at a toy she's
holding...BAM. We don't know what to do. He is so sweet to her, too. Any
ideas? "
~Rue
Tia Leschke
>My sister has asked me to put a question on the list. She has two kids,The only thing I can think of is to find ways to spend alone time with
>Drue who is four, and Declan who is two. She is expecting another baby
>(and Drue has said that she's not happy about it and that she wants my
>sister to herself). From here on I'm quoting my sister:
>
>"It is unheard of for a day to go by without her hitting, punching, kicking,
>and yelling. She is soooooo mean to him. When we try to talk to her she says
>"I'm not listening to you at all". She gets mad at him for everything. If he
>comes in their room she flips out for him to get out. She will punch him so
>fast and hard before I can stop her. If he looks at a toy she's
>holding...BAM. We don't know what to do. He is so sweet to her, too. Any
>ideas? "
her. Talk to her about how you wish it was possible for her to have her
mother all to herself, and how it will be harder when the baby
arrives. You wish you had a magic wand that could make it possible for her
to have her mother all to herself whenever she wanted that. Validating her
feelings kind of stuff.
Tia
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/11/03 11:03:27 AM, skreams@... writes:
<< She will punch him so
fast and hard before I can stop her. If he looks at a toy she's
holding...BAM. We don't know what to do. He is so sweet to her, too. Any
ideas? " >>
Pay more attention to the other one.
When the little one is asleep make it a priority to be with the older one.
When she can, take the older one somewhere JUST HER.
It sucks deep to the bone, past the soul, to be an only child and then have
to be WAY #2, left-overs.
Sandra
<< She will punch him so
fast and hard before I can stop her. If he looks at a toy she's
holding...BAM. We don't know what to do. He is so sweet to her, too. Any
ideas? " >>
Pay more attention to the other one.
When the little one is asleep make it a priority to be with the older one.
When she can, take the older one somewhere JUST HER.
It sucks deep to the bone, past the soul, to be an only child and then have
to be WAY #2, left-overs.
Sandra
Jon and Rue Kream
Ok, my sister informs me I got part of it wrong (you know how sisters are
:0)). Anyway, she says Drue did say she wanted the other people to leave
her family, but that she says that whenever she's mad at someone, and it
could just as likely have been my sister she wanted to get rid of. Jeanne
doesn't think Drue is upset so much that she's having a baby as that while
she is pregnant Jeanne can't do a lot of things Drue would like her to do.
(she has tough pregnancies, she's exhausted and needing to get IVs for
dehydration, etc.) I think you've got the full picture now <G>. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
:0)). Anyway, she says Drue did say she wanted the other people to leave
her family, but that she says that whenever she's mad at someone, and it
could just as likely have been my sister she wanted to get rid of. Jeanne
doesn't think Drue is upset so much that she's having a baby as that while
she is pregnant Jeanne can't do a lot of things Drue would like her to do.
(she has tough pregnancies, she's exhausted and needing to get IVs for
dehydration, etc.) I think you've got the full picture now <G>. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
She must protect her 2 year old and set down limits. Hurting people is
not acceptable. I guess I would take a two fold approach. I would
first make it so she could not be in the same room or within a few feet
of her brother without someone touching her, even if it is simply they
are holding her hand or holding her in their lap. THere are times when
my two girls are constantly bickering (although they rarely hit,
sometimes they pinch or violate each other's physical space with their
feet, etc.) and I simply say it sounds like you both need some time away
from each other, so for a while you are not allowed in the same room.
They are a bit older by my five year old understands this so I think
most four year olds would understand. After a few hours of being told
they can't be in the same room they are begging to play with each other
again. The two children just simply should not be in the same room
unless there is constant, immediate supervision, with mom or another
adult right there. It sounds like the two share a room, and if possible
that should end. If not, then the parents need to make sure both are
asleep before letting them share a room. The 2 year old can go to sleep
in mom's room until the 4 year old is asleep.
Second, there is something making this little girl very angry and the
parents need to figure it out. If there is a good play therapist around
a few visits might not hurt, especially with a new baby on the way.
Also mom (and dad) needs to find time to spend with each child alone,
at least 30 minutes a day and a longer time on the weekend. My parents
used to have Saturday be my day and Sunday be my sister's day. This was
with my mom while the other kids were with my dad, but the next weekend
it would be dad's turn to take me out while my sister and brother stayed
with my mom. My brother had a day too, I'm sure. (Just so you dont'
think my parents ignored him). But anyway, it really helped to have
that alone time. During the week we'd read, talk, etc. At four some of
the best times I had with my daughter was when she was taking a bath and
right before bed. Lots of one on one and talking without other things
to do or distractions. Letting the child pick the activity, but
encouraging activities (likes walks, book reading, etc.) that allow lots
of talking, holding hands, cuddling.
There area lot of good books about new siblings. And books about angry
feelings.
Oh and if the parents spank, it's time to stop and never spank again.
This little girl is very unhappy and stressed. She's crying out for help.
Joylyn
Jon and Rue Kream wrote:
not acceptable. I guess I would take a two fold approach. I would
first make it so she could not be in the same room or within a few feet
of her brother without someone touching her, even if it is simply they
are holding her hand or holding her in their lap. THere are times when
my two girls are constantly bickering (although they rarely hit,
sometimes they pinch or violate each other's physical space with their
feet, etc.) and I simply say it sounds like you both need some time away
from each other, so for a while you are not allowed in the same room.
They are a bit older by my five year old understands this so I think
most four year olds would understand. After a few hours of being told
they can't be in the same room they are begging to play with each other
again. The two children just simply should not be in the same room
unless there is constant, immediate supervision, with mom or another
adult right there. It sounds like the two share a room, and if possible
that should end. If not, then the parents need to make sure both are
asleep before letting them share a room. The 2 year old can go to sleep
in mom's room until the 4 year old is asleep.
Second, there is something making this little girl very angry and the
parents need to figure it out. If there is a good play therapist around
a few visits might not hurt, especially with a new baby on the way.
Also mom (and dad) needs to find time to spend with each child alone,
at least 30 minutes a day and a longer time on the weekend. My parents
used to have Saturday be my day and Sunday be my sister's day. This was
with my mom while the other kids were with my dad, but the next weekend
it would be dad's turn to take me out while my sister and brother stayed
with my mom. My brother had a day too, I'm sure. (Just so you dont'
think my parents ignored him). But anyway, it really helped to have
that alone time. During the week we'd read, talk, etc. At four some of
the best times I had with my daughter was when she was taking a bath and
right before bed. Lots of one on one and talking without other things
to do or distractions. Letting the child pick the activity, but
encouraging activities (likes walks, book reading, etc.) that allow lots
of talking, holding hands, cuddling.
There area lot of good books about new siblings. And books about angry
feelings.
Oh and if the parents spank, it's time to stop and never spank again.
This little girl is very unhappy and stressed. She's crying out for help.
Joylyn
Jon and Rue Kream wrote:
> My sister has asked me to put a question on the list. She has two kids,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Drue who is four, and Declan who is two. She is expecting another baby
> (and Drue has said that she's not happy about it and that she wants my
> sister to herself). From here on I'm quoting my sister:
>
> "It is unheard of for a day to go by without her hitting, punching,
> kicking,
> and yelling. She is soooooo mean to him. When we try to talk to her
> she says
> "I'm not listening to you at all". She gets mad at him for everything.
> If he
> comes in their room she flips out for him to get out. She will punch
> him so
> fast and hard before I can stop her. If he looks at a toy she's
> holding...BAM. We don't know what to do. He is so sweet to her, too. Any
> ideas? "
> ~Rue
>
>
>
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Jon and Rue Kream
>>Validating herfeelings kind of stuff.
Tia
**Thanks, Tia. I'd say they do this, and I do it as well. Seems she needs
more, though. I'll pass it on to my sister. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
>>It sucks deep to the bone, past the soul, to be an only child and thenhave
to be WAY #2, left-overs.
Sandra
**Yes, I think that's true. I'll pass it on, thanks. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jon and Rue Kream
>>Oh and if the parents spank, it's time to stop and never spank again.This little girl is very unhappy and stressed. She's crying out for help.
**Hi Joylyn - Yes, she is. My sister and her husband parent the way most of
us on this list do - they wouldn't think of spanking her. I think staying
right next to her when she is with Declan is a good idea, and I do think
it's reached a point where play therapy could be helpful. I'll send her
your email - thank you :0). ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Scanlons
Siblings Without Rivalry is an interesting book. As I first read it, I
thought the people were a bunch of over-sensitive whiners. I grew up in a
family of 9 and don't remember any of those thoughts. I always knew my
folks loved me...how could they not?? I'm wonderful!! But as I read more
in the book, I realized that lots of those thoughts and feelings might have
been experienced by my siblings. I haven't asked them, but I'd bet money
that some of it applied. I took a few good things away from that
book....things that seemed at first to be ridiculous.
I can't tell from the message, but was Drue "coddled" when Declan arrived?
Did Mom and Dad promise that they still loved her and they would still have
their time together?
When my kids come along, we don't talk about that stuff. We tell them that
there's a new baby coming and isn't that wonderful. We talk about all the
things they'll be able to teach the baby and how much more love we'll have
in the family. My kids know that love multiplies, it doesn't get divided.
They also know that *time* gets divided and shared and that that's just a
fact of life.
The only time I hear something like, "I hate him! I wish he were never
born!!" is when they are really mad or if a young'un has just kicked over
the chinese checkers game (again).
I have a friend who has two kids and they have done the "this new baby won't
replace you in my heart" routine. The girls do get along well, but there is
a constant jealous undertone. Now there is another baby on the way and all
the concern is there again, making the problem bigger than it needs to be.
This is just anecdotal evidence, but I think that if parents make a big deal
out of the negatives of a new family member, even by reiterating the
positive ways to counteract the negatives, the child will seize on the
negatives.
Her parents are going to have to quit putting up with Drue's crap. She can
have all the feelings that she wants, but when it comes to others in the
family, especially those younger and weaker than she is, she needs to shape
up. I think that having her own room doesn't help matters much. Drue
doesn't get a choice in the decision for another family member, so no one
should make like she does. That's unfair to all concerned. I don't know if
this child's behavior can be changed without some serious effort on the
parents' part.
Sandy
thought the people were a bunch of over-sensitive whiners. I grew up in a
family of 9 and don't remember any of those thoughts. I always knew my
folks loved me...how could they not?? I'm wonderful!! But as I read more
in the book, I realized that lots of those thoughts and feelings might have
been experienced by my siblings. I haven't asked them, but I'd bet money
that some of it applied. I took a few good things away from that
book....things that seemed at first to be ridiculous.
I can't tell from the message, but was Drue "coddled" when Declan arrived?
Did Mom and Dad promise that they still loved her and they would still have
their time together?
When my kids come along, we don't talk about that stuff. We tell them that
there's a new baby coming and isn't that wonderful. We talk about all the
things they'll be able to teach the baby and how much more love we'll have
in the family. My kids know that love multiplies, it doesn't get divided.
They also know that *time* gets divided and shared and that that's just a
fact of life.
The only time I hear something like, "I hate him! I wish he were never
born!!" is when they are really mad or if a young'un has just kicked over
the chinese checkers game (again).
I have a friend who has two kids and they have done the "this new baby won't
replace you in my heart" routine. The girls do get along well, but there is
a constant jealous undertone. Now there is another baby on the way and all
the concern is there again, making the problem bigger than it needs to be.
This is just anecdotal evidence, but I think that if parents make a big deal
out of the negatives of a new family member, even by reiterating the
positive ways to counteract the negatives, the child will seize on the
negatives.
Her parents are going to have to quit putting up with Drue's crap. She can
have all the feelings that she wants, but when it comes to others in the
family, especially those younger and weaker than she is, she needs to shape
up. I think that having her own room doesn't help matters much. Drue
doesn't get a choice in the decision for another family member, so no one
should make like she does. That's unfair to all concerned. I don't know if
this child's behavior can be changed without some serious effort on the
parents' part.
Sandy
joylyn
I think it's normal for Drue to want people to leave her family. Gee,
sometimes I feel like that!
But the hitting and hurting really concern me.
Joylyn
Jon and Rue Kream wrote:
sometimes I feel like that!
But the hitting and hurting really concern me.
Joylyn
Jon and Rue Kream wrote:
> Ok, my sister informs me I got part of it wrong (you know how sisters are[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> :0)). Anyway, she says Drue did say she wanted the other people to leave
> her family, but that she says that whenever she's mad at someone, and it
> could just as likely have been my sister she wanted to get rid of. Jeanne
> doesn't think Drue is upset so much that she's having a baby as that while
> she is pregnant Jeanne can't do a lot of things Drue would like her to do.
> (she has tough pregnancies, she's exhausted and needing to get IVs for
> dehydration, etc.) I think you've got the full picture now <G>. ~Rue
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
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joylyn
I was thinking one of those great big blow up things, with a weight at
the bottom, I can't remember what they are called, boppies? Soemthing
like that. It might help her to kick and hit that.
Joylyn
Jon and Rue Kream wrote:
the bottom, I can't remember what they are called, boppies? Soemthing
like that. It might help her to kick and hit that.
Joylyn
Jon and Rue Kream wrote:
> >>Oh and if the parents spank, it's time to stop and never spank again.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> This little girl is very unhappy and stressed. She's crying out for help.
>
> **Hi Joylyn - Yes, she is. My sister and her husband parent the way
> most of
> us on this list do - they wouldn't think of spanking her. I think staying
> right next to her when she is with Declan is a good idea, and I do think
> it's reached a point where play therapy could be helpful. I'll send her
> your email - thank you :0). ~Rue
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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>
> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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joylyn
The Scanlons wrote:
negative to have a sibling.
Lots of cuddling helps. It's also anecdotal evidence, but I believe, as
do other fellow tandem nursers, that tandem nursing also helps the older
child adjust to the new one. I personally think it helped in Lexie's
case. Also having the older child(ren) very much involved in the
pregnancy and birth, have them read to the baby while in utero, sing
songs to the baby, talk and pat and kiss and love the baby, and then if
possible have them there at the birth. Have them hold the baby as
quickly as possible, help with the taking care of the baby. My sister
had a baby when her oldest was a mear 17 months old but the older baby
could go get water for Julie (they would keep water bottles on the
bottom shelf of the fridge), diapers, snacks for Julie while she was
nursing, etc. He also would be responsible for rubbing the baby's head
while nursing or diaper changes, and talking to the baby. The older
child was not at all verbal (he barely spoke until 3 years but he had a
highly complex form of sign language that served him quite well) but he
could hum and say baby baby baby, etc.
Joylyn
> Siblings Without Rivalry is an interesting book.It's a great book, highly recommend it.
>I agree, but don't ignore the negative either. It's both positive and
> This is just anecdotal evidence, but I think that if parents make a
> big deal
> out of the negatives of a new family member, even by reiterating the
> positive ways to counteract the negatives, the child will seize on the
> negatives.
negative to have a sibling.
Lots of cuddling helps. It's also anecdotal evidence, but I believe, as
do other fellow tandem nursers, that tandem nursing also helps the older
child adjust to the new one. I personally think it helped in Lexie's
case. Also having the older child(ren) very much involved in the
pregnancy and birth, have them read to the baby while in utero, sing
songs to the baby, talk and pat and kiss and love the baby, and then if
possible have them there at the birth. Have them hold the baby as
quickly as possible, help with the taking care of the baby. My sister
had a baby when her oldest was a mear 17 months old but the older baby
could go get water for Julie (they would keep water bottles on the
bottom shelf of the fridge), diapers, snacks for Julie while she was
nursing, etc. He also would be responsible for rubbing the baby's head
while nursing or diaper changes, and talking to the baby. The older
child was not at all verbal (he barely spoke until 3 years but he had a
highly complex form of sign language that served him quite well) but he
could hum and say baby baby baby, etc.
>I agree.
>
> Her parents are going to have to quit putting up with Drue's crap.
Joylyn
> She can[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> have all the feelings that she wants, but when it comes to others in the
> family, especially those younger and weaker than she is, she needs to
> shape
> up. I think that having her own room doesn't help matters much. Drue
> doesn't get a choice in the decision for another family member, so no one
> should make like she does. That's unfair to all concerned. I don't
> know if
> this child's behavior can be changed without some serious effort on the
> parents' part.
>
> Sandy
>
>
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> "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this group.
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[email protected]
In a message dated 10/11/03 2:13:59 PM, scanlon36@... writes:
<< This is just anecdotal evidence, but I think that if parents make a big
deal
out of the negatives of a new family member, even by reiterating the
positive ways to counteract the negatives, the child will seize on the
negatives. >>
That could be true, but maybe greater than that is whether the child is
emotionally needy. Even only children can be needy, and some humans are just
naturally more needy than others. Punishing them for being themselves (even
punishment by being declared bad or a problem) is cold. If the parents haven't
figured out a way to help the child feel right and whole, why should the child
suffer even more?
<<Her parents are going to have to quit putting up with Drue's crap.>>
That's way too harsh for my sensibilities.
She's four. Her life got worse, and she was marginalized. She's about to be
#3 on the priorities list, not the smaller (need- and attention-wise) of two,
but of three. She might feel like she's about to disappear. That's not
"crap."
<<Drue doesn't get a choice in the decision for another family member, so no
one
should make like she does. >>
Sounds like it's okay for decisions to be made for HER, though by everyone
else.
She can get to help make whatever decisions her parents decide she can make.
There are people who have had other children or not, based in part from input
of their existing children. That's not crap either. They are not "making
like she does," they're honestly asking for input from members of their family.
(Not this family, but the families I'm thinking of.)
<<That's unfair to all concerned.>>
So it's okay to be unfair to children and tell them to get over their crap,
but if a child expresses an opinion, they're being unfair to all concerned?
<<I don't know if
this child's behavior can be changed without some serious effort on the
parents' part.>>
Definitely true, but telling her to cut the crap wouldn't be in my top 100
suggestions.
Sandra
<< This is just anecdotal evidence, but I think that if parents make a big
deal
out of the negatives of a new family member, even by reiterating the
positive ways to counteract the negatives, the child will seize on the
negatives. >>
That could be true, but maybe greater than that is whether the child is
emotionally needy. Even only children can be needy, and some humans are just
naturally more needy than others. Punishing them for being themselves (even
punishment by being declared bad or a problem) is cold. If the parents haven't
figured out a way to help the child feel right and whole, why should the child
suffer even more?
<<Her parents are going to have to quit putting up with Drue's crap.>>
That's way too harsh for my sensibilities.
She's four. Her life got worse, and she was marginalized. She's about to be
#3 on the priorities list, not the smaller (need- and attention-wise) of two,
but of three. She might feel like she's about to disappear. That's not
"crap."
<<Drue doesn't get a choice in the decision for another family member, so no
one
should make like she does. >>
Sounds like it's okay for decisions to be made for HER, though by everyone
else.
She can get to help make whatever decisions her parents decide she can make.
There are people who have had other children or not, based in part from input
of their existing children. That's not crap either. They are not "making
like she does," they're honestly asking for input from members of their family.
(Not this family, but the families I'm thinking of.)
<<That's unfair to all concerned.>>
So it's okay to be unfair to children and tell them to get over their crap,
but if a child expresses an opinion, they're being unfair to all concerned?
<<I don't know if
this child's behavior can be changed without some serious effort on the
parents' part.>>
Definitely true, but telling her to cut the crap wouldn't be in my top 100
suggestions.
Sandra
Shyrley
joylyn wrote:
Shyrley
>The Scanlons wrote:I bought it a few weeks agi. Now my 11 yo is reading it.
>
>
>
>>Siblings Without Rivalry is an interesting book.
>>
>>
>
>It's a great book, highly recommend it.
>
>
>
Shyrley
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
Jon and Rue Kream
Sandra said: >>That's way too harsh for my sensibilities.
She's four.
**Too harsh for me, too, and I'm sure for my sister. She's not just being a
little brat who needs to stop the 'crap'. She's hurting.
Sandy said: >>I don't know if
this child's behavior can be changed without some serious effort on the
parents' part.>>
**And they are willing to put the serious effort in. They're just not sure
what the best way to approach it is, and are looking for ideas that take
Drue's feelings seriously (but also protect Declan).
and: >>Siblings Without Rivalry is an interesting book.
**I'll check it out, thanks. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
She's four.
**Too harsh for me, too, and I'm sure for my sister. She's not just being a
little brat who needs to stop the 'crap'. She's hurting.
Sandy said: >>I don't know if
this child's behavior can be changed without some serious effort on the
parents' part.>>
**And they are willing to put the serious effort in. They're just not sure
what the best way to approach it is, and are looking for ideas that take
Drue's feelings seriously (but also protect Declan).
and: >>Siblings Without Rivalry is an interesting book.
**I'll check it out, thanks. ~Rue
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joylyn
SandraDodd@... wrote:
mind. Anyone hitting is wrong. This child is doing it repeatedly and
according to what was said here, not wanting to hear that this behavior
is not acceptable. Maybe I wouldn't have used the word crap but I think
what Drue is doing is beyond acceptable and it must stop.
can pick up Drue and take her to the other room physically. When Drue
is hitting an adult can pick her up and hold her lovingly but firmly and
say 'we don't hit in this house, period." repeating that until Drue is
under control. And when Drue is not hitting they can reinforce that
behavior as well, and spend lots of time with her, giving her time to
vent her emotions and concerns. Play therapy could really help this
child get past this difficult time in her life.
might be considered that. Again, not the word I would use, but
regardless of the word, the behavior is not acceptable!
Drue was part of it or not, is less important now than the fact that
Drue is in the situation and needs help dealing with it now. Her
parents need help dealing with it. The poor brother, who is the
punching bag, needs the hitting to stop, immediately. And Drue needs
some help to recognize what she is feeling and for realizing that while
those feelings are OK, the hitting is Not.
Joylyn
> <<Her parents are going to have to quit putting up with Drue's crap.>>Yes, it's harsh, but it's down right wrong to hit other people in my
>
> That's way too harsh for my sensibilities.
mind. Anyone hitting is wrong. This child is doing it repeatedly and
according to what was said here, not wanting to hear that this behavior
is not acceptable. Maybe I wouldn't have used the word crap but I think
what Drue is doing is beyond acceptable and it must stop.
>Yes, she's only four, that's a baby. At four mom (or dad as mom is pg)
>
> She's four. Her life got worse,
can pick up Drue and take her to the other room physically. When Drue
is hitting an adult can pick her up and hold her lovingly but firmly and
say 'we don't hit in this house, period." repeating that until Drue is
under control. And when Drue is not hitting they can reinforce that
behavior as well, and spend lots of time with her, giving her time to
vent her emotions and concerns. Play therapy could really help this
child get past this difficult time in her life.
> and she was marginalized. She's about to beNo, her feelings and needs are not crap. However, her reaction to that
> #3 on the priorities list, not the smaller (need- and attention-wise)
> of two,
> but of three. She might feel like she's about to disappear. That's not
> "crap."
might be considered that. Again, not the word I would use, but
regardless of the word, the behavior is not acceptable!
> <<Drue doesn't get a choice in the decision for another family member,Regardless of how a decision was made to have another child or whether
> so no
> one
>
> should make like she does. >>
>
> Sounds like it's okay for decisions to be made for HER, though by
> everyone
> else.
>
> She can get to help make whatever decisions her parents decide she can
> make.
> There are people who have had other children or not, based in part
> from input
> of their existing children. That's not crap either. They are not
> "making
> like she does," they're honestly asking for input from members of
> their family.
> (Not this family, but the families I'm thinking of.)
Drue was part of it or not, is less important now than the fact that
Drue is in the situation and needs help dealing with it now. Her
parents need help dealing with it. The poor brother, who is the
punching bag, needs the hitting to stop, immediately. And Drue needs
some help to recognize what she is feeling and for realizing that while
those feelings are OK, the hitting is Not.
Joylyn
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> <<That's unfair to all concerned.>>
>
> So it's okay to be unfair to children and tell them to get over their
> crap,
> but if a child expresses an opinion, they're being unfair to all
> concerned?
>
> <<I don't know if
>
> this child's behavior can be changed without some serious effort on the
>
> parents' part.>>
>
> Definitely true, but telling her to cut the crap wouldn't be in my top
> 100
> suggestions.
>
> Sandra
>
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>
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[email protected]
It's been a long time since I read it, but He Hit Me First: When Brothers and
Sisters Fight, by Louise Bates Ames and Carol Chase Haber might be helpful.
Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sisters Fight, by Louise Bates Ames and Carol Chase Haber might be helpful.
Mary
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
J. Stauffer
I have a 6 yo and two 4yos (among others) so sibling rivalry comes up every
now and then. Something that we have found useful is substituting, for lack
of a better word, one emotion for another.
Example: Sitting in a meeting with all the kids, I sense that Marsie is
getting restless, so rather than tense myself or speak to her about it. I
smooth her hair, pull her lovingly to me, look smilingly into her eyes, give
her a quick kiss, hug her, whatever....But I do something that I know will
let her know that I love her and am thinking of her, that I am focused on
the goodness and wonder of her, not on what she is doing that is making me
nuts.
Perhaps just as your sister senses the tension start to mount between the
kids, she could try something like that with her dd. My guess would be that
right now whenever the two kids are together mom is waiting for the next
shoe to fall and the kids feel the tension, reinforcing negative feelings
between them.
Just a thought.
julie S.
now and then. Something that we have found useful is substituting, for lack
of a better word, one emotion for another.
Example: Sitting in a meeting with all the kids, I sense that Marsie is
getting restless, so rather than tense myself or speak to her about it. I
smooth her hair, pull her lovingly to me, look smilingly into her eyes, give
her a quick kiss, hug her, whatever....But I do something that I know will
let her know that I love her and am thinking of her, that I am focused on
the goodness and wonder of her, not on what she is doing that is making me
nuts.
Perhaps just as your sister senses the tension start to mount between the
kids, she could try something like that with her dd. My guess would be that
right now whenever the two kids are together mom is waiting for the next
shoe to fall and the kids feel the tension, reinforcing negative feelings
between them.
Just a thought.
julie S.
Diana Pryntz
Is it a new development or something that has been going on before the
mother shared that there was another baby on the way?
I have four sons. Their current ages are 15, 13, 10 1/2 and 8. My 13 year
old used to be full of rage from about age 2 to four. Daily he would throw
things and nothing within 10 feet was safe! In his case, I think he was
mostly frustrated with his inability to express himself clearly or with his
body's inability to do what he wanted his body to do. He was developing
normally but his expectations were greater than his developmental level.
Anyway, everyone would have to run out of the room or risk getting hurt. I
would stay and grab all hard and breakables out of his reach. Grabbing him
and holding him lovingly did not work. It only made him angrier. My usual
strategy was just to wait it out as long as everyone was safe. After about a
year of this, I tried something different. I waited until he finished
throwing and then turned to him and said, "I am angry and mad". I stamped on
the floor and acted slightly angry. His eyes were wide open with surprise
because "mommy" never behaved that way before. I turned to him at that point
and said, "You know what I am going to do? When I am mad, I draw big black
lines". I grabbed paper and crayons and proceeded. He watched. This strategy
helped for a while to change how he expressed his anger because after that I
was able to grab a crayon and paper and give it to him when he had a
tantrum. I wanted to let him work through his anger in a way that our family
could handle. This helped for a while. When he was between 3 and 4, he still
had temper tantrums but stopped throwing objects. One day, I cried with him.
When I had his attention, I was straight with him. I told him that when he
was in emotional pain, I was too because I had no idea how to help him. I
asked him if he could tell me how to him when he are not happy? He actually
calmed himself down to answer me. That was the turning point for him (as
well as for me). I knew then he had reached the level of maturity to control
his anger. He did share strategies that he wanted me to use to comfort him.
Rarely did he have tantrums after that.
I hope my approaches will give your sister ideas to consider that may work
with your niece. In my opinion, the first and important thing your daughter
needs to learn is a more appropriate way of dealing with her anger. She
needs to know that her feelings are ok but not the manner she is expressing
it. She needs to know that her mother wants to be there for her, love her,
and guide her. When children are angry, it scares them because they feel
this anger take control and that is scary. They sometimes need help and
guidance so that they learn how to manage those feelings so that they are
still in control of their mind and bodies.
That is my two cents. Hope it generates ideas for your sister and their
family.
FYI- I am new to this board but not new to unschooling. Been doing it since
my first child was born.
-Diana Pryntz
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Information Boulevard's Virus Scanning]
mother shared that there was another baby on the way?
I have four sons. Their current ages are 15, 13, 10 1/2 and 8. My 13 year
old used to be full of rage from about age 2 to four. Daily he would throw
things and nothing within 10 feet was safe! In his case, I think he was
mostly frustrated with his inability to express himself clearly or with his
body's inability to do what he wanted his body to do. He was developing
normally but his expectations were greater than his developmental level.
Anyway, everyone would have to run out of the room or risk getting hurt. I
would stay and grab all hard and breakables out of his reach. Grabbing him
and holding him lovingly did not work. It only made him angrier. My usual
strategy was just to wait it out as long as everyone was safe. After about a
year of this, I tried something different. I waited until he finished
throwing and then turned to him and said, "I am angry and mad". I stamped on
the floor and acted slightly angry. His eyes were wide open with surprise
because "mommy" never behaved that way before. I turned to him at that point
and said, "You know what I am going to do? When I am mad, I draw big black
lines". I grabbed paper and crayons and proceeded. He watched. This strategy
helped for a while to change how he expressed his anger because after that I
was able to grab a crayon and paper and give it to him when he had a
tantrum. I wanted to let him work through his anger in a way that our family
could handle. This helped for a while. When he was between 3 and 4, he still
had temper tantrums but stopped throwing objects. One day, I cried with him.
When I had his attention, I was straight with him. I told him that when he
was in emotional pain, I was too because I had no idea how to help him. I
asked him if he could tell me how to him when he are not happy? He actually
calmed himself down to answer me. That was the turning point for him (as
well as for me). I knew then he had reached the level of maturity to control
his anger. He did share strategies that he wanted me to use to comfort him.
Rarely did he have tantrums after that.
I hope my approaches will give your sister ideas to consider that may work
with your niece. In my opinion, the first and important thing your daughter
needs to learn is a more appropriate way of dealing with her anger. She
needs to know that her feelings are ok but not the manner she is expressing
it. She needs to know that her mother wants to be there for her, love her,
and guide her. When children are angry, it scares them because they feel
this anger take control and that is scary. They sometimes need help and
guidance so that they learn how to manage those feelings so that they are
still in control of their mind and bodies.
That is my two cents. Hope it generates ideas for your sister and their
family.
FYI- I am new to this board but not new to unschooling. Been doing it since
my first child was born.
-Diana Pryntz
---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Information Boulevard's Virus Scanning]
aicitticia
Just chiming in on this post. I am currently going through some
sibling squabbles right now (my 1 yr old and 1 yr old)...not so
physical, but I do remember my mom trying out the boppy thing with
my brother. He had become so angry with my dad when my parents
separated and he was never even prone toward physical aggression; he
was told that if he was angry he could just hit his Chewbacca
stuffed toy. So he would lay into that thing and he would really
feel relief. I used to scream into a pillow myself. Maybe they could
give this 4 yr old an object to .... well "release" into. I also
think that this 4 yr old needs some quality time with each parent to
know her *worth* (for lack of better words). She must be getting ALL
kinds of attention through all of the corrections she receives.
Maybe some positive and delightful company with a parent who just
listens to her would be soothing to her soul?
Ticia
(Mommy to Chloe 4 and Raiden 1)
***And yes Joylyn I'm on this list too ;oP LOLOLOL....I'm embarking
on a new frontier ;)****
--- In [email protected], joylyn <joylyn@e...>
wrote:
705081972:HM/A=1595054/R=0/SIG=124ukap9t/*http://ashnin.com/clk/muryu
taitakenattogyo?YH=3707890&yhad=1595054>
sibling squabbles right now (my 1 yr old and 1 yr old)...not so
physical, but I do remember my mom trying out the boppy thing with
my brother. He had become so angry with my dad when my parents
separated and he was never even prone toward physical aggression; he
was told that if he was angry he could just hit his Chewbacca
stuffed toy. So he would lay into that thing and he would really
feel relief. I used to scream into a pillow myself. Maybe they could
give this 4 yr old an object to .... well "release" into. I also
think that this 4 yr old needs some quality time with each parent to
know her *worth* (for lack of better words). She must be getting ALL
kinds of attention through all of the corrections she receives.
Maybe some positive and delightful company with a parent who just
listens to her would be soothing to her soul?
Ticia
(Mommy to Chloe 4 and Raiden 1)
***And yes Joylyn I'm on this list too ;oP LOLOLOL....I'm embarking
on a new frontier ;)****
--- In [email protected], joylyn <joylyn@e...>
wrote:
> I was thinking one of those great big blow up things, with aweight at
> the bottom, I can't remember what they are called, boppies?Soemthing
> like that. It might help her to kick and hit that.again.
>
> Joylyn
>
> Jon and Rue Kream wrote:
>
> > >>Oh and if the parents spank, it's time to stop and never spank
> >for help.
> > This little girl is very unhappy and stressed. She's crying out
> >way
> > **Hi Joylyn - Yes, she is. My sister and her husband parent the
> > most ofthink staying
> > us on this list do - they wouldn't think of spanking her. I
> > right next to her when she is with Declan is a good idea, and Ido think
> > it's reached a point where play therapy could be helpful. I'llsend her
> > your email - thank you :0). ~Rue<http://rd.yahoo.com/M=244522.3707890.4968055.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
705081972:HM/A=1595054/R=0/SIG=124ukap9t/*http://ashnin.com/clk/muryu
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> >group.
> >
> >
> > "List Posting Policies" are provided in the files area of this
> >Service
> > To unsubscribe from this send an email to:
> > [email protected]
> >
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> > http://www.unschooling.com
> >
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> > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Scanlons
Shyrley,
Won't it be interesting for your 11 yr old to say, "Hey, Mom...*you* do
this. And this. And this!!! You're going to ruuuiiiiinnn us!!!!!" He/she
will either be joshin' you or helping you to become a better mom. Or maybe
s/he'll say, "Gee, Mom...you're great. You don't do any of that stuff to
us. Thanks!" (followed by a big smooch, if you're lucky!
And think of the ways this book can enlighten a child in his dealings with
friends.
That's cool!
Sandy
Won't it be interesting for your 11 yr old to say, "Hey, Mom...*you* do
this. And this. And this!!! You're going to ruuuiiiiinnn us!!!!!" He/she
will either be joshin' you or helping you to become a better mom. Or maybe
s/he'll say, "Gee, Mom...you're great. You don't do any of that stuff to
us. Thanks!" (followed by a big smooch, if you're lucky!
And think of the ways this book can enlighten a child in his dealings with
friends.
That's cool!
Sandy
[email protected]
Has your sister considered borrowing/renting an older child to do with the
4yo some of the things she can't do right now because of her pregnancy? That
might help to alleviate some fo the frustration.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
4yo some of the things she can't do right now because of her pregnancy? That
might help to alleviate some fo the frustration.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 10/13/2003 12:47:18 AM Central Standard Time,
dacunefare@... writes:
her mom's limitations and illness during pregnancy. I broke my ankle last
year and even though my then four year old son was no where near me, he
convinced himself that he had pushed me down the stairs. He had a LOT of anger about
it. Lashed out at his sister, his friends, everyone. It took me a week to
realize he was blaming himself and much longer than that to make him know he
hadn't done anything wrong. We kept talking, kept telling the story of how it
happened and how he was watching Angelina Ballerina at the time and how he was
in no way to blame for it. Last night, just to check, I asked him if he
remembered how I broke my ankle and he remembered it right. Your sister's older
child may be blaming herself for her mom's condition.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dacunefare@... writes:
> Has your sister considered borrowing/renting an older child to do with theI may be way off base, but the older child may be blaming herself for some of
> 4yo some of the things she can't do right now because of her pregnancy? That
>
> might help to alleviate some fo the frustration.
>
her mom's limitations and illness during pregnancy. I broke my ankle last
year and even though my then four year old son was no where near me, he
convinced himself that he had pushed me down the stairs. He had a LOT of anger about
it. Lashed out at his sister, his friends, everyone. It took me a week to
realize he was blaming himself and much longer than that to make him know he
hadn't done anything wrong. We kept talking, kept telling the story of how it
happened and how he was watching Angelina Ballerina at the time and how he was
in no way to blame for it. Last night, just to check, I asked him if he
remembered how I broke my ankle and he remembered it right. Your sister's older
child may be blaming herself for her mom's condition.
Elizabeth
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]