Re: Unschooling math etc.
Pam Hartley
----------
I mean, you CAN say, "We unschool except when we do school" but how much
sense does that make?
You can't be a vegetarian who occasionally enjoys a nice juicy steak. You
can't be an unschooler who uses an enforced math curriculum. Unschool means
un school.
Ducks are ducks, they can't be geese on alternate Wednesdays.
Pam
>From: [email protected]Yes it does.
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1358
>Date: Sat, Aug 11, 2001, 8:53 PM
>
> I believe that being largely an unschooler doesn't mean you can't slip a
> little bookwork/study/drills in when you feel the need. I really don't
> think that that detracts from the unschooling way at all. There can be
> hard-core devoted unschoolers, and at the same time people who go by the
> unschooling philosophy yet still take an eclectic approach at times. It
> doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing approach.
I mean, you CAN say, "We unschool except when we do school" but how much
sense does that make?
You can't be a vegetarian who occasionally enjoys a nice juicy steak. You
can't be an unschooler who uses an enforced math curriculum. Unschool means
un school.
Ducks are ducks, they can't be geese on alternate Wednesdays.
Pam
Carrie Troy
<<I mean, you CAN say, "We unschool except when we do school" but how
much
sense does that make?>>
I never said that. "DO SCHOOL" to me means schedules, assignments, time
slots, grades, and all that junk. I am more than justified calling
myself an unschooler even though I occasionally (I don't know, once a
week, twice a week?) ask my kids to fill out a math sheet whenever they
feel like it. I may even say that I want them to do it before bedtime. Or
lunchtime. or before they can get on the computer to play. My four year
old is just learning to read, and he LOVES to do workbooks and 'read'
with me. If I say "hey Kyson, come here with mom and do this sheet,
okay?", I can't be an unschooler??? to me, that is a far cry from
forced, scheduled work. They are not forced, not stressed.
Carrie, mom to
Seth, 11
Austin, 9
Kyson, 4
Aidan, 2.5
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
much
sense does that make?>>
I never said that. "DO SCHOOL" to me means schedules, assignments, time
slots, grades, and all that junk. I am more than justified calling
myself an unschooler even though I occasionally (I don't know, once a
week, twice a week?) ask my kids to fill out a math sheet whenever they
feel like it. I may even say that I want them to do it before bedtime. Or
lunchtime. or before they can get on the computer to play. My four year
old is just learning to read, and he LOVES to do workbooks and 'read'
with me. If I say "hey Kyson, come here with mom and do this sheet,
okay?", I can't be an unschooler??? to me, that is a far cry from
forced, scheduled work. They are not forced, not stressed.
Carrie, mom to
Seth, 11
Austin, 9
Kyson, 4
Aidan, 2.5
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Castle Crawford
>If I say "hey Kyson, come here with mom and do this sheet,okay?", I can't be an unschooler??? to me, that is a far cry from
forced, scheduled work. They are not forced, not stressed. <
I have to agree. My son and daughter love to do workbook pages, but I certainly don't sit them down at 9 a.m. every Tuesday and Thursday for an hour of 3+4= It is just another aspect of learning, and why not? We consult textbooks, encyclopedias, maps, use crayons, glue, paper, scissors-all very much 'school' items.
The whole concept of unschooling (to me) is to embrace the world as a learning tool and to use anything and everything as fuel for those fires our children have all been so blessed with.
Esther
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 08/12/2001 5:32:15 AM !!!First Boot!!!, TCA1120@...
writes:
Some on this list will disagree though.
Now, my advice: get on with it. Stop asking for anyone's permission! They
don't know you anyway. :)
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
writes:
> My four yearYou have my permission.
> old is just learning to read, and he LOVES to do workbooks and 'read'
> with me. If I say "hey Kyson, come here with mom and do this sheet,
> okay?", I can't be an unschooler??? to me, that is a far cry from
> forced, scheduled work. They are not forced, not stressed.
>
>
>
Some on this list will disagree though.
Now, my advice: get on with it. Stop asking for anyone's permission! They
don't know you anyway. :)
Nance
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/2001 3:10:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ec3forme@... writes:
is my belief it is not unschooling at all. No matter how much we may think
it is not coerced, it is by asking them to do it. If workbooks are lying
around the house, and they pick them up and want to do them, that is a
different thing. That is their choice and that to me is what unschooling is.
Choice. . . the choice to learn what, when, why. I don't measure what my
young people are doing. . . there is no need to measure it, and compare it to
where "they are suppossed to be". They are already exactly where they are
suppossed to be, wherever that is at this moment in time. It is so hard to
let go of that school mentality because we have all been indoctrinated with
it most of our lives. We are I guess what you would call very radical
unschoolers, and I still struggle just about every day with wanting to
"suggest" certain things rather than letting it flow, and it is because of
the years of school conditioning we have all had. But I do believe
unschooling is a way of life. . . no forcing of workbooks, worksheets, tests,
etc. And when I ask my child to do a worksheet, that is forcing, in my
opinion. . . very subtle maybe, but still forcing.
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ec3forme@... writes:
> The whole concept of unschooling (to me) is to embrace the world as aThat is true, but if you are asking them to come and do a worksheet, then it
> learning tool and to use anything and everything as fuel for those fires
> our children have all been so blessed with.
>
> Esther
>
>
is my belief it is not unschooling at all. No matter how much we may think
it is not coerced, it is by asking them to do it. If workbooks are lying
around the house, and they pick them up and want to do them, that is a
different thing. That is their choice and that to me is what unschooling is.
Choice. . . the choice to learn what, when, why. I don't measure what my
young people are doing. . . there is no need to measure it, and compare it to
where "they are suppossed to be". They are already exactly where they are
suppossed to be, wherever that is at this moment in time. It is so hard to
let go of that school mentality because we have all been indoctrinated with
it most of our lives. We are I guess what you would call very radical
unschoolers, and I still struggle just about every day with wanting to
"suggest" certain things rather than letting it flow, and it is because of
the years of school conditioning we have all had. But I do believe
unschooling is a way of life. . . no forcing of workbooks, worksheets, tests,
etc. And when I ask my child to do a worksheet, that is forcing, in my
opinion. . . very subtle maybe, but still forcing.
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
I quote lite2yu@..., who wrote:
them be an option that they even know exists (at least the first time?)
Within the philosophy you explained, would you feel that if my son did pick
one up and want to do it, I should drop whatever I'm doing to work on it
with him at that moment?
(I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious about your response.
Sorry for the disclaimer, but some of my lists are ridiculously
hypersensitive right now & I want to head off any misunderstanding. <g>)
--
Cheryl <zarah@...> zone 7b in NC
homepreschooling Mom to
Gabriel (10/28/97) & Maris (6/23/00)
>If workbooks are lyingGiven the age of her-- and my-- son, how would picking them up and doing
>around the house, and they pick them up and want to do them, that is a
>different thing. That is their choice and that to me is what unschooling is.
them be an option that they even know exists (at least the first time?)
Within the philosophy you explained, would you feel that if my son did pick
one up and want to do it, I should drop whatever I'm doing to work on it
with him at that moment?
(I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious about your response.
Sorry for the disclaimer, but some of my lists are ridiculously
hypersensitive right now & I want to head off any misunderstanding. <g>)
--
Cheryl <zarah@...> zone 7b in NC
homepreschooling Mom to
Gabriel (10/28/97) & Maris (6/23/00)
Tracy Oldfield
I never said that. "DO SCHOOL" to me means schedules,
assignments, time
slots, grades, and all that junk. I am more than
justified calling
myself an unschooler even though I occasionally (I
don't know, once a
week, twice a week?) ask my kids to fill out a math
sheet whenever they
feel like it. I may even say that I want them to do it
before bedtime. Or
lunchtime. or before they can get on the computer to
play. My four year
old is just learning to read, and he LOVES to do
workbooks and 'read'
with me. If I say "hey Kyson, come here with mom and do
this sheet,
okay?", I can't be an unschooler??? to me, that is a
far cry from
forced, scheduled work. They are not forced, not
stressed.
To me, that would depend on what would happen if he
said 'no.' And also, as someone else said, why make
maths different? Why single it out? No seriously I'd
like to know why people feel it's necessary to make
maths into a 'subject' when the point, for me, of
unschooling is to not separate life into subjects.
Tracy
assignments, time
slots, grades, and all that junk. I am more than
justified calling
myself an unschooler even though I occasionally (I
don't know, once a
week, twice a week?) ask my kids to fill out a math
sheet whenever they
feel like it. I may even say that I want them to do it
before bedtime. Or
lunchtime. or before they can get on the computer to
play. My four year
old is just learning to read, and he LOVES to do
workbooks and 'read'
with me. If I say "hey Kyson, come here with mom and do
this sheet,
okay?", I can't be an unschooler??? to me, that is a
far cry from
forced, scheduled work. They are not forced, not
stressed.
To me, that would depend on what would happen if he
said 'no.' And also, as someone else said, why make
maths different? Why single it out? No seriously I'd
like to know why people feel it's necessary to make
maths into a 'subject' when the point, for me, of
unschooling is to not separate life into subjects.
Tracy
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/2001 9:10:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
zarah@... writes:
you were, that is fine too! :)
If you have the workbooks laying around, like any books, at some point they
will pick them up. We have all kinds books laying around the house, and when
interested in them, the kids pick them up. Quinton is 2, and picks up stuff
and asks us to read to him which we do. Lelia who is 12 will pick up
Mothering Magazine and read it, or Organic Gardening, which are my magazines.
If it lays around, someone picks it up and reads it. We have had workbooks
laying around. . .we don't right now, because we aren't completely unpacked
from moving. . . and Lelia is not interested in them, although Quinton may be
at some point. If he asks me to help him with something, I will. I guess it
would depend on the circumstances as to whether I would drop whatever I am
doing at the moment, but with Quinton I most likely would, because the
attention span is so short. With Lelia, I could probably set up a time when
we could look at something together, if she asked. Generally I am just about
always available though. And just to be clear, we are definitely a work in
progress. . . I am not saying we get it right all the time. . . we are still
evolving our unschooling, and I suspect we will always be.
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zarah@... writes:
> how would picking them up and doingNo problem. . . I don't think you are being argumentative at all, and even if
> them be an option that they even know exists (at least the first time?)
> Within the philosophy you explained, would you feel that if my son did pick
> one up and want to do it, I should drop whatever I'm doing to work on it
> with him at that moment?
> (I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious about your response.
>
you were, that is fine too! :)
If you have the workbooks laying around, like any books, at some point they
will pick them up. We have all kinds books laying around the house, and when
interested in them, the kids pick them up. Quinton is 2, and picks up stuff
and asks us to read to him which we do. Lelia who is 12 will pick up
Mothering Magazine and read it, or Organic Gardening, which are my magazines.
If it lays around, someone picks it up and reads it. We have had workbooks
laying around. . .we don't right now, because we aren't completely unpacked
from moving. . . and Lelia is not interested in them, although Quinton may be
at some point. If he asks me to help him with something, I will. I guess it
would depend on the circumstances as to whether I would drop whatever I am
doing at the moment, but with Quinton I most likely would, because the
attention span is so short. With Lelia, I could probably set up a time when
we could look at something together, if she asked. Generally I am just about
always available though. And just to be clear, we are definitely a work in
progress. . . I am not saying we get it right all the time. . . we are still
evolving our unschooling, and I suspect we will always be.
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
My two were much older when we started our homeschool journey, so they already knew all about worksheets and workbooks. But if I had a younger one who had not picked up a workbook that had been laying on the table for a week or a month I might try a few tricks. When they are at the table eating lunch or whatever I might come in and pick up the book myself and say "ooh cool" After they ask what? I might tell them that this workbook has some fun pages to color on. They might take the bait then and want to do it.
I like crossword puzzle books. Get a few for yourself and work on them when you are around your kids. If they ask to do it also you could say No. or Well, this one is mine, but I could get you one of you own. or Sure, just put it on the table when you're through. If you have a question let me know.
If learning is important and exciting for you, then it will be important and exciting for the kids.
Joy in NM
I like crossword puzzle books. Get a few for yourself and work on them when you are around your kids. If they ask to do it also you could say No. or Well, this one is mine, but I could get you one of you own. or Sure, just put it on the table when you're through. If you have a question let me know.
If learning is important and exciting for you, then it will be important and exciting for the kids.
Joy in NM
> how would picking them up and doing[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> them be an option that they even know exists (at least the first time?)
> Within the philosophy you explained, would you feel that if my son did pick
> one up and want to do it, I should drop whatever I'm doing to work on it
> with him at that moment?
Tia Leschke
>You also have my permission to homeschool any way you want. <g> But if
>
>You have my permission.
>
>Some on this list will disagree though.
>
>Now, my advice: get on with it. Stop asking for anyone's permission! They
>don't know you anyway. :)
people are going to call themselves unschoolers, perhaps they should read
something written by the founder of the "method". Try reading Teach Your
Own or Learning All the Time by John Holt. I believe that he would have
said that the key to whether someone is unschooling is *who* decides the
what when where why and how of learning. If it's the child, and the parent
is merely a facilitator of the child's desire to learn something, then call
it unschooling. If it's the parent, then go ahead and do it that way but
call it something else.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
[email protected]
<< We consult textbooks, encyclopedias, maps, use crayons, glue, paper,
scissors-all very much 'school' items. >>
Scissors and paper were not invented for school. Neither was glue. Medieval
craftsmen didn't go to school, but they made glue for whatever purposes the
needed it. Japanese gardeners have scissors, and versions of crayons (maybe
not wax Binney & Smith, but charcoals and pastels) are artist's tools. Maps
were most definitely not invented for schools.
<<The whole concept of unschooling (to me) is to embrace the world as a
learning tool and to use anything and everything...>>
If the "anything and everything" include teaching in such a way that the kids
aren't learning on their own, then that breaches the bounds of unschooling.
The less school that's in your head, the better unschooling will work.
Defining tools as "school tools" will work against you.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
scissors-all very much 'school' items. >>
Scissors and paper were not invented for school. Neither was glue. Medieval
craftsmen didn't go to school, but they made glue for whatever purposes the
needed it. Japanese gardeners have scissors, and versions of crayons (maybe
not wax Binney & Smith, but charcoals and pastels) are artist's tools. Maps
were most definitely not invented for schools.
<<The whole concept of unschooling (to me) is to embrace the world as a
learning tool and to use anything and everything...>>
If the "anything and everything" include teaching in such a way that the kids
aren't learning on their own, then that breaches the bounds of unschooling.
The less school that's in your head, the better unschooling will work.
Defining tools as "school tools" will work against you.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/01 7:10:56 AM, zarah@... writes:
<< Within the philosophy you explained, would you feel that if my son did pick
one up and want to do it >>
"To do it" would mean to look at the pages, or color the pictures, right?
If my child brought me a workbook page (or puzzle book page, or found a
computer game that was a pattern-puzzle or word puzzle) and ask me how to do
it, I would drop what I was doing and help them for sure.
But being with my kids all day IS what I am doing. I do other things
(housework?) for the benefit of my family. The family comes before the
housework. The kids come before my visiting my friends. It's not an
interruption if my kids need me while I have company. The company is
visiting me at work. If they want me uninterrupted they need to take me out
to eat or to a movie, because while I'm home, my kids have priority access.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< Within the philosophy you explained, would you feel that if my son did pick
one up and want to do it >>
"To do it" would mean to look at the pages, or color the pictures, right?
If my child brought me a workbook page (or puzzle book page, or found a
computer game that was a pattern-puzzle or word puzzle) and ask me how to do
it, I would drop what I was doing and help them for sure.
But being with my kids all day IS what I am doing. I do other things
(housework?) for the benefit of my family. The family comes before the
housework. The kids come before my visiting my friends. It's not an
interruption if my kids need me while I have company. The company is
visiting me at work. If they want me uninterrupted they need to take me out
to eat or to a movie, because while I'm home, my kids have priority access.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Saga
To me, that would depend on what would happen if he
said 'no.' And also, as someone else said, why make
maths different? Why single it out? No seriously I'd
like to know why people feel it's necessary to make
maths into a 'subject' when the point, for me, of
unschooling is to not separate life into subjects.
Tracy
I think it all depends on the situation and age of the child. In life
things are seperated somewhat into subjects. Granted, there is a lot of
overflow into other areas and the lines are not very clearcut, but if
someone is really into Physics, then they are really into Physics. And will
want to learn about Physics. Since Physics (like math) effects everything
in the universe, it is easy to learn about without learning about physics
specifically, but at some point when the child grows, if the interest is
still there (or in engineering, biology, computers, business, etc, etc,
etc), and the child is seriously interested in pursuing this in life, she/he
is going to have to learn some math, and that math is going to have to be
learned as math. You cannot get your PhD in Physics without extensive math.
It is hard to be an accountant without knowing math. They may pick up on a
lot of math that they will or will not need in "real life", but unless they
are given some sort of book and really learn it, it would be a rare child
who teaches themselves through everyday experience about unreal numbers and
advanced calculus.
So... I think it depends. I want my children to be whatever it is they want
to be when they grow up, and to follow whatever they want to follow as they
grow. But if they are interested in following a certain path, and that path
requires specialized knowledge about a certain subject, I will definitely
let them in on what they're going to need to know to follow that path
successfully. And then they will decide whether or not they want to fulfil
it.
-Kristi
said 'no.' And also, as someone else said, why make
maths different? Why single it out? No seriously I'd
like to know why people feel it's necessary to make
maths into a 'subject' when the point, for me, of
unschooling is to not separate life into subjects.
Tracy
I think it all depends on the situation and age of the child. In life
things are seperated somewhat into subjects. Granted, there is a lot of
overflow into other areas and the lines are not very clearcut, but if
someone is really into Physics, then they are really into Physics. And will
want to learn about Physics. Since Physics (like math) effects everything
in the universe, it is easy to learn about without learning about physics
specifically, but at some point when the child grows, if the interest is
still there (or in engineering, biology, computers, business, etc, etc,
etc), and the child is seriously interested in pursuing this in life, she/he
is going to have to learn some math, and that math is going to have to be
learned as math. You cannot get your PhD in Physics without extensive math.
It is hard to be an accountant without knowing math. They may pick up on a
lot of math that they will or will not need in "real life", but unless they
are given some sort of book and really learn it, it would be a rare child
who teaches themselves through everyday experience about unreal numbers and
advanced calculus.
So... I think it depends. I want my children to be whatever it is they want
to be when they grow up, and to follow whatever they want to follow as they
grow. But if they are interested in following a certain path, and that path
requires specialized knowledge about a certain subject, I will definitely
let them in on what they're going to need to know to follow that path
successfully. And then they will decide whether or not they want to fulfil
it.
-Kristi
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/2001 11:39:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mom@... writes:
it certainly is not. Let me explain. I have a degree in Finance. I have a
masters in education (barf barf). I have two business's, actually more, but I
am going to talk about two of them. I had a restuarant. All of the things I
learned to succeed in that field I learned by doing, by experience. Several
years later, I started my ow landscape company. I was horrible at science in
school, and now I found myself immersed in it, and loving it because I was
choosing what science to learn.
I just don't think anything a person does, whether its an engineer, an
accountant, or anything else is separated into subjects. An accountant
doesn't only do math, a massage therapist doesn't only do massages, etc. Hope
I am making my point clearly. . . NAK
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mom@... writes:
> learn about without learning about physicsWho says? I really think this is not correct, at least in my own experience
> specifically, but at some point when the child grows, if the interest is
> still there (or in engineering, biology, computers, business, etc, etc,
> etc), and the child is seriously interested in pursuing this in life, she/he
> is going to have to learn some math, and that math is going to have to be
> learned as math.
it certainly is not. Let me explain. I have a degree in Finance. I have a
masters in education (barf barf). I have two business's, actually more, but I
am going to talk about two of them. I had a restuarant. All of the things I
learned to succeed in that field I learned by doing, by experience. Several
years later, I started my ow landscape company. I was horrible at science in
school, and now I found myself immersed in it, and loving it because I was
choosing what science to learn.
I just don't think anything a person does, whether its an engineer, an
accountant, or anything else is separated into subjects. An accountant
doesn't only do math, a massage therapist doesn't only do massages, etc. Hope
I am making my point clearly. . . NAK
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/01 9:39:02 AM, mom@... writes:
<< They may pick up on a
lot of math that they will or will not need in "real life", but unless they
are given some sort of book and really learn it, it would be a rare child
who teaches themselves through everyday experience about unreal numbers and
advanced calculus. >>
Math comes easy to my husband, and he LOVES these things. He has no concerns
about unschooling. When the kids get on the brink of something new, he
casually mentions something and they take bait or not. No child wants a PhD
in physics. When an adult wants one, he has already decided he's willing to
study formal math.
Lots of college students start with algebra or geometry because they hated
math at school or just didn't get it. LOTS of the high school kids who get
good grades in math, and who score high on SAT math, do not really understand
that math more than they needed to pass tests and do multiple choice
standardized tests. They don't know what the math is for. They can't
conceive of plugging any real-world data into those formulae.
"Don't try this at home."
It's better for them to understand what calculations are needed for a real
purpose, like how thick a dam needs to be or how to calculate the spill flow,
than to be full of numbers without pictures.
Many of those who go on to use math professionally would have learned it on
their own (or did, for fun, outside of school, or during school while
ignoring a history teacher or something). MOST of those who had math drills,
exercises, textbooks, etc. in school learned to fear and dislike math. Many
of those, had they been allowed to wait until the questions were forming in
their heads naturally. If the information is given in response to a question
from the child (or teen or adult) it will have a place in his head to stick.
If it's given prescriptively two things happen (well lots, but these two
too): it might turn the kid off to math or make him feel he doesn't
understand it, and it robs him of the opportunity of discovery.
Sandra
<< They may pick up on a
lot of math that they will or will not need in "real life", but unless they
are given some sort of book and really learn it, it would be a rare child
who teaches themselves through everyday experience about unreal numbers and
advanced calculus. >>
Math comes easy to my husband, and he LOVES these things. He has no concerns
about unschooling. When the kids get on the brink of something new, he
casually mentions something and they take bait or not. No child wants a PhD
in physics. When an adult wants one, he has already decided he's willing to
study formal math.
Lots of college students start with algebra or geometry because they hated
math at school or just didn't get it. LOTS of the high school kids who get
good grades in math, and who score high on SAT math, do not really understand
that math more than they needed to pass tests and do multiple choice
standardized tests. They don't know what the math is for. They can't
conceive of plugging any real-world data into those formulae.
"Don't try this at home."
It's better for them to understand what calculations are needed for a real
purpose, like how thick a dam needs to be or how to calculate the spill flow,
than to be full of numbers without pictures.
Many of those who go on to use math professionally would have learned it on
their own (or did, for fun, outside of school, or during school while
ignoring a history teacher or something). MOST of those who had math drills,
exercises, textbooks, etc. in school learned to fear and dislike math. Many
of those, had they been allowed to wait until the questions were forming in
their heads naturally. If the information is given in response to a question
from the child (or teen or adult) it will have a place in his head to stick.
If it's given prescriptively two things happen (well lots, but these two
too): it might turn the kid off to math or make him feel he doesn't
understand it, and it robs him of the opportunity of discovery.
Sandra
Saga
I understand what you are saying and agree with you... to a point :)
My husband would not have his current job, or be able to aspire to the job
he wants, without having his degree in Physics. He would not have been able
to get that degree in Physics without knowledge in advanced math. It is a
little bit hard to pick up advanced math in everyday life...
Now, if he was interested in Physics and went off and picked up books and
things like that to learn about physics to prepare for the college courses,
thats great. And if he was informed one way or another that advanced math
will be needed to achieve his goals, then he may have wanted to learn about
math, or decide it isn't worth the effort. If he wanted to learn math, he
would have to pick up some books and figure it out.
What I am saying is that if a child is interested in something, one should
facilitate the learning in that area. Does that make sense? If my daughter
is interested in becoming a doctor, I'll probably say, "well, lets go figure
out what it is a doctor needs to know" and point her in the right direction
for her research, and then she'll have to decide the best way for her to
learn that information.
If my daughter is interested in the arts or biology or becoming an auto
mechanic, then I would do the exact same thing. But she would probably have
to learn a minimal amount of formal math for any of those (knowing the names
of some of the statistical processes would be helpful for Biology, for
example.). I'm not saying one should sit the kids down and learn it, I'm
just saying that a person needs to know some things if they are going to
want to become some things, or go to college to become some things. And I
do believe that children will pick up on most of it on their own if they
have the resources to explore, but if a more intense knowledge is going to
be needed in a particular area in order to reach their goals, they may need
to focus on that area so they can continue with what it is their interested
in.
We're a very science-oriented family so this is why I feel this way. I know
with my husband's Physics degree and what he eventually wants to do with it,
he needed a formal college education. I know with what I am working towards
(I am a life-long student... but my goal is Environmental Studies though I
started out wanting to be a paleontologist) I need to know certain things.
I know I can learn most of it on my own, if I wanted to, but because I do
not have the background or foundation in certain areas (math and chemistry)
I am going to have to go back and learn it. If I had been shown a long time
ago (like early teens) that this was stuff that would be good to know to
fulfil my dreams, it would have been good information to know and I may (or
may not have) taken the time to learn those things that would help me later
in life.
Does this make any sense? Or am I totally rambling?
I thought that unschooling was basically being your child's facilitator. If
they are interested in something, you point them in the right direction or
find the resources they need. If they really want to do something that
requires knowledge in other areas, why would you not show them these other
things?
-Kristi
-----Original Message-----
From: lite2yu@... [mailto:lite2yu@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 9:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
In a message dated 8/12/2001 11:39:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mom@... writes:
it certainly is not. Let me explain. I have a degree in Finance. I have a
masters in education (barf barf). I have two business's, actually more, but
I
am going to talk about two of them. I had a restuarant. All of the things I
learned to succeed in that field I learned by doing, by experience. Several
years later, I started my ow landscape company. I was horrible at science in
school, and now I found myself immersed in it, and loving it because I was
choosing what science to learn.
I just don't think anything a person does, whether its an engineer, an
accountant, or anything else is separated into subjects. An accountant
doesn't only do math, a massage therapist doesn't only do massages, etc.
Hope
I am making my point clearly. . . NAK
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
My husband would not have his current job, or be able to aspire to the job
he wants, without having his degree in Physics. He would not have been able
to get that degree in Physics without knowledge in advanced math. It is a
little bit hard to pick up advanced math in everyday life...
Now, if he was interested in Physics and went off and picked up books and
things like that to learn about physics to prepare for the college courses,
thats great. And if he was informed one way or another that advanced math
will be needed to achieve his goals, then he may have wanted to learn about
math, or decide it isn't worth the effort. If he wanted to learn math, he
would have to pick up some books and figure it out.
What I am saying is that if a child is interested in something, one should
facilitate the learning in that area. Does that make sense? If my daughter
is interested in becoming a doctor, I'll probably say, "well, lets go figure
out what it is a doctor needs to know" and point her in the right direction
for her research, and then she'll have to decide the best way for her to
learn that information.
If my daughter is interested in the arts or biology or becoming an auto
mechanic, then I would do the exact same thing. But she would probably have
to learn a minimal amount of formal math for any of those (knowing the names
of some of the statistical processes would be helpful for Biology, for
example.). I'm not saying one should sit the kids down and learn it, I'm
just saying that a person needs to know some things if they are going to
want to become some things, or go to college to become some things. And I
do believe that children will pick up on most of it on their own if they
have the resources to explore, but if a more intense knowledge is going to
be needed in a particular area in order to reach their goals, they may need
to focus on that area so they can continue with what it is their interested
in.
We're a very science-oriented family so this is why I feel this way. I know
with my husband's Physics degree and what he eventually wants to do with it,
he needed a formal college education. I know with what I am working towards
(I am a life-long student... but my goal is Environmental Studies though I
started out wanting to be a paleontologist) I need to know certain things.
I know I can learn most of it on my own, if I wanted to, but because I do
not have the background or foundation in certain areas (math and chemistry)
I am going to have to go back and learn it. If I had been shown a long time
ago (like early teens) that this was stuff that would be good to know to
fulfil my dreams, it would have been good information to know and I may (or
may not have) taken the time to learn those things that would help me later
in life.
Does this make any sense? Or am I totally rambling?
I thought that unschooling was basically being your child's facilitator. If
they are interested in something, you point them in the right direction or
find the resources they need. If they really want to do something that
requires knowledge in other areas, why would you not show them these other
things?
-Kristi
-----Original Message-----
From: lite2yu@... [mailto:lite2yu@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 9:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
In a message dated 8/12/2001 11:39:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
mom@... writes:
> learn about without learning about physicsshe/he
> specifically, but at some point when the child grows, if the interest is
> still there (or in engineering, biology, computers, business, etc, etc,
> etc), and the child is seriously interested in pursuing this in life,
> is going to have to learn some math, and that math is going to have to beWho says? I really think this is not correct, at least in my own experience
> learned as math.
it certainly is not. Let me explain. I have a degree in Finance. I have a
masters in education (barf barf). I have two business's, actually more, but
I
am going to talk about two of them. I had a restuarant. All of the things I
learned to succeed in that field I learned by doing, by experience. Several
years later, I started my ow landscape company. I was horrible at science in
school, and now I found myself immersed in it, and loving it because I was
choosing what science to learn.
I just don't think anything a person does, whether its an engineer, an
accountant, or anything else is separated into subjects. An accountant
doesn't only do math, a massage therapist doesn't only do massages, etc.
Hope
I am making my point clearly. . . NAK
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Tia Leschke
>I agree with everything you said in this and another wonderful post, but
><<The whole concept of unschooling (to me) is to embrace the world as a
>learning tool and to use anything and everything...>>
>
>If the "anything and everything" include teaching in such a way that the kids
>aren't learning on their own, then that breaches the bounds of unschooling.
not this. I don't believe they have to learn it on their own. I believe
they have to *decide* on their own to learn it. If a kid wants to learn
something like chemistry, for instance, and gets stuck or just doesn't even
know where to start, that's where our job as facilitator comes in. At that
point our teaching them something, or finding someone to teach them
something, is still unschooling because they've asked for it.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Tia Leschke
> Since Physics (like math) effects everythingA few years ago I read about a couple of unschooled teens in Vancouver who
>in the universe, it is easy to learn about without learning about physics
>specifically, but at some point when the child grows, if the interest is
>still there (or in engineering, biology, computers, business, etc, etc,
>etc), and the child is seriously interested in pursuing this in life, she/he
>is going to have to learn some math, and that math is going to have to be
>learned as math. You cannot get your PhD in Physics without extensive math.
>It is hard to be an accountant without knowing math. They may pick up on a
>lot of math that they will or will not need in "real life", but unless they
>are given some sort of book and really learn it, it would be a rare child
>who teaches themselves through everyday experience about unreal numbers and
>advanced calculus.
decided they needed high school math in order to go on to higher
education. All the math they knew at that point was what they had taught
themselves as part of life. They hired a tutor and learned it all in a
matter of a few months.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
[email protected]
**I never said that. "DO SCHOOL" to me means schedules, assignments, time
slots, grades, and all that junk. I am more than justified calling
myself an unschooler even though I occasionally (I don't know, once a
week, twice a week?) ask my kids to fill out a math sheet whenever they
feel like it. I may even say that I want them to do it before bedtime. Or
lunchtime. or before they can get on the computer to play.**
Can whenever they feel like it be never?
It's not free choice if there's no choice about whether to do it or not, or
if not doing it means they can't do something else.
It's not about the materials. I'd say the same thing about requiring kids to
plant a garden, count jellybeans, draw a picture, daydream. If it's not
optional, it's something other than unschooling.
It's not about the materials. My family owns probably more textbooks and
workbooks than the average school-at-home family (at least the
school-at-homers I know pick one text and stick with it). I pick up stuff as
I find it that someone might find useful, that I find intriguing, stuff
people request. It's available for use whenever a child wants it. It's
readily seen as an option. I even pull it out some days and ask if anyone
wants to try it out. But the day I make it non optional I stop calling myself
an unschooler and start calling myself something else, probably relaxed
eclectic homeschooler.
Besides the question of "is it unschooling", I think it's an educational
mistake to set anything up as different from all other sorts of learning.
Especially something as inherently interesting and exciting as mathematics.
Especially with children who haven't ever been schooled into thinking of some
things as harder than or less interesting than others.
Deborah in IL
Life, the Universe, and Everything!
slots, grades, and all that junk. I am more than justified calling
myself an unschooler even though I occasionally (I don't know, once a
week, twice a week?) ask my kids to fill out a math sheet whenever they
feel like it. I may even say that I want them to do it before bedtime. Or
lunchtime. or before they can get on the computer to play.**
Can whenever they feel like it be never?
It's not free choice if there's no choice about whether to do it or not, or
if not doing it means they can't do something else.
It's not about the materials. I'd say the same thing about requiring kids to
plant a garden, count jellybeans, draw a picture, daydream. If it's not
optional, it's something other than unschooling.
It's not about the materials. My family owns probably more textbooks and
workbooks than the average school-at-home family (at least the
school-at-homers I know pick one text and stick with it). I pick up stuff as
I find it that someone might find useful, that I find intriguing, stuff
people request. It's available for use whenever a child wants it. It's
readily seen as an option. I even pull it out some days and ask if anyone
wants to try it out. But the day I make it non optional I stop calling myself
an unschooler and start calling myself something else, probably relaxed
eclectic homeschooler.
Besides the question of "is it unschooling", I think it's an educational
mistake to set anything up as different from all other sorts of learning.
Especially something as inherently interesting and exciting as mathematics.
Especially with children who haven't ever been schooled into thinking of some
things as harder than or less interesting than others.
Deborah in IL
Life, the Universe, and Everything!
Lynda
YES!!!! She, I told you you should be the ruler of the kingdom <g>
Lynda
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <marbleface@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 5:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
> In a message dated 08/12/2001 5:32:15 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
TCA1120@...
> writes:
>
>
> > My four year
> > old is just learning to read, and he LOVES to do workbooks and 'read'
> > with me. If I say "hey Kyson, come here with mom and do this sheet,
> > okay?", I can't be an unschooler??? to me, that is a far cry from
> > forced, scheduled work. They are not forced, not stressed.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> You have my permission.
>
> Some on this list will disagree though.
>
> Now, my advice: get on with it. Stop asking for anyone's permission!
They
> don't know you anyway. :)
>
> Nance
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/2001 12:30:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
mom@... writes:
obsessed with animals, mainly dogs and cats. Recently she has started talking
about college and animal sciences. So she realizes that if she is going to go
to college, there are some things she is going to have to learn. She doesn't
like math much, especially when I am involved because of a bad start we had.
So I have totally backed off of it. But I will help her find out what she is
going to need and how to get that information. But it is totally her choice.
I am not going to push her to learn it . . . she is going to have to decide
when and how much she is going to do in preparation. I will provide the
materials and help her as much as I can, and when I can't help her, find
someone else who can. She goes to an unschool resource center and she was
telling me that she is planning on doing a lot of math there this year. . .
she realizes its not something she wants to do at home, and she actually
likes it when she does it there.
I guess my main point is that I am not going to force anything on her and am
actually going to let her take responsibility for her own learning (but will
help as much as is wanting to receive help). Make sense?
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mom@... writes:
> I thought that unschooling was basically being your child's facilitator. IfExactly Kristi. . . I mean, Lelia my 12 year old daughter. . . she is
> they are interested in something, you point them in the right direction or
> find the resources they need. If they really want to do something that
> requires knowledge in other areas, why would you not show them these other
> things?
>
> -Kristi
>
obsessed with animals, mainly dogs and cats. Recently she has started talking
about college and animal sciences. So she realizes that if she is going to go
to college, there are some things she is going to have to learn. She doesn't
like math much, especially when I am involved because of a bad start we had.
So I have totally backed off of it. But I will help her find out what she is
going to need and how to get that information. But it is totally her choice.
I am not going to push her to learn it . . . she is going to have to decide
when and how much she is going to do in preparation. I will provide the
materials and help her as much as I can, and when I can't help her, find
someone else who can. She goes to an unschool resource center and she was
telling me that she is planning on doing a lot of math there this year. . .
she realizes its not something she wants to do at home, and she actually
likes it when she does it there.
I guess my main point is that I am not going to force anything on her and am
actually going to let her take responsibility for her own learning (but will
help as much as is wanting to receive help). Make sense?
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Saga
<< If a kid wants to learn
something like chemistry, for instance, and gets stuck or just doesn't even
know where to start, that's where our job as facilitator comes in. At that
point our teaching them something, or finding someone to teach them
something, is still unschooling because they've asked for it.>>
LOL - sorry, this made me laugh... sometimes it can be a bit ... dangerous
too :) My husband was really into science as a kid. He thought he'd do
some chemistry experiments, just to see what happened...
well, he now has no sense of smell (well, very little sense of smell, he can
barely smell certain things, dirty cat box or poopy diaper suspiciously not
one of them), and caused one fire at home. Many explosions, many potential
disasters, and a nightmare for his mom :)
Some things are a little safer done under proper guidance and supervision.
-Kristi
something like chemistry, for instance, and gets stuck or just doesn't even
know where to start, that's where our job as facilitator comes in. At that
point our teaching them something, or finding someone to teach them
something, is still unschooling because they've asked for it.>>
LOL - sorry, this made me laugh... sometimes it can be a bit ... dangerous
too :) My husband was really into science as a kid. He thought he'd do
some chemistry experiments, just to see what happened...
well, he now has no sense of smell (well, very little sense of smell, he can
barely smell certain things, dirty cat box or poopy diaper suspiciously not
one of them), and caused one fire at home. Many explosions, many potential
disasters, and a nightmare for his mom :)
Some things are a little safer done under proper guidance and supervision.
-Kristi
Saga
I loved math throughout elementary school and junior high, but by high
school I was burnt out (I had taken algebra 3 years straight because my
school had nothing higher to offer me) and into the acting dumb to be liked
thing.
Once I got to college I panicked because I needed a math. Because of my SAT
score I could take any math I wanted (I scored very high in math for some
reason, I never took anything beyond Algebra I in school, I was a high
school dropout), so I got a friend who was a physics major and had him teach
me everything I needed to know up to Trigonometry (the class I needed to
fulfil the requirement). It took about a month of tutoring.
It's amazing how easy it can be once you decide you want to do it, and have
the resources to do as you want to, when you want to, at your own pace.
-Kristi
-----Original Message-----
From: Tia Leschke [mailto:leschke@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 9:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
decided they needed high school math in order to go on to higher
education. All the math they knew at that point was what they had taught
themselves as part of life. They hired a tutor and learned it all in a
matter of a few months.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
****************************************************************************
****************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
school I was burnt out (I had taken algebra 3 years straight because my
school had nothing higher to offer me) and into the acting dumb to be liked
thing.
Once I got to college I panicked because I needed a math. Because of my SAT
score I could take any math I wanted (I scored very high in math for some
reason, I never took anything beyond Algebra I in school, I was a high
school dropout), so I got a friend who was a physics major and had him teach
me everything I needed to know up to Trigonometry (the class I needed to
fulfil the requirement). It took about a month of tutoring.
It's amazing how easy it can be once you decide you want to do it, and have
the resources to do as you want to, when you want to, at your own pace.
-Kristi
-----Original Message-----
From: Tia Leschke [mailto:leschke@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 9:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
> Since Physics (like math) effects everythingshe/he
>in the universe, it is easy to learn about without learning about physics
>specifically, but at some point when the child grows, if the interest is
>still there (or in engineering, biology, computers, business, etc, etc,
>etc), and the child is seriously interested in pursuing this in life,
>is going to have to learn some math, and that math is going to have to bemath.
>learned as math. You cannot get your PhD in Physics without extensive
>It is hard to be an accountant without knowing math. They may pick up on aA few years ago I read about a couple of unschooled teens in Vancouver who
>lot of math that they will or will not need in "real life", but unless they
>are given some sort of book and really learn it, it would be a rare child
>who teaches themselves through everyday experience about unreal numbers and
>advanced calculus.
decided they needed high school math in order to go on to higher
education. All the math they knew at that point was what they had taught
themselves as part of life. They hired a tutor and learned it all in a
matter of a few months.
Tia
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
****************************************************************************
****************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/01 10:30:21 AM, mom@... writes:
<< What I am saying is that if a child is interested in something, one should
facilitate the learning in that area. Does that make sense? >>
If you think facilitating learning means math worksheets, though, it's not
going to becom unschooling.
<<...point her in the right direction
for her research, and then she'll have to decide the best way for her to
learn that information....>>
Research isn't necessary. Things evolve. A child who thinks she wants to be
a doctor will see/hear/feel/experience things from here til then that will
either strengthen her desire or weaken it. None of that take research. The
strengthening experiences will themselves be learning experiences. Taking
care of a wounded bird. Growing mold. Looking at mushrooms in the yard.
Research would be on the spot, for a purpose. Looking in a reference book,
calling a vet, asking a neighbor, checking websites.
<< But she would probably have
to learn a minimal amount of formal math for any of those >>
Not in advance. As she moves toward the mastery, the knowledge grows
organically IF it is left as the whole world instead of divided up. The math
needed to rebuild an engine has to do with engine rebuilds. First you hear
people talk about it, maybe you read the packages of rebuild kids of
subsystems at the store, then you see someone doing it, or hear someone
talking by phone to a more experienced mechanic about gaps or torques or bore
holes. Gradually it starts to make a lot of sense and becomes applicable to
other uses.
<< If they really want to do something that
requires knowledge in other areas, why would you not show them these other
things?>>
The knowledge isn't "in another area" is what people are trying to say, I
think. The knowledge is right there.
For review of biology or chemistry, there are charts, illustrated books,
video games, all kinds of things which are not a straight-out Biology 101
course, three hours, with one hour lab (or the 9th grade equivalent).
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< What I am saying is that if a child is interested in something, one should
facilitate the learning in that area. Does that make sense? >>
If you think facilitating learning means math worksheets, though, it's not
going to becom unschooling.
<<...point her in the right direction
for her research, and then she'll have to decide the best way for her to
learn that information....>>
Research isn't necessary. Things evolve. A child who thinks she wants to be
a doctor will see/hear/feel/experience things from here til then that will
either strengthen her desire or weaken it. None of that take research. The
strengthening experiences will themselves be learning experiences. Taking
care of a wounded bird. Growing mold. Looking at mushrooms in the yard.
Research would be on the spot, for a purpose. Looking in a reference book,
calling a vet, asking a neighbor, checking websites.
<< But she would probably have
to learn a minimal amount of formal math for any of those >>
Not in advance. As she moves toward the mastery, the knowledge grows
organically IF it is left as the whole world instead of divided up. The math
needed to rebuild an engine has to do with engine rebuilds. First you hear
people talk about it, maybe you read the packages of rebuild kids of
subsystems at the store, then you see someone doing it, or hear someone
talking by phone to a more experienced mechanic about gaps or torques or bore
holes. Gradually it starts to make a lot of sense and becomes applicable to
other uses.
<< If they really want to do something that
requires knowledge in other areas, why would you not show them these other
things?>>
The knowledge isn't "in another area" is what people are trying to say, I
think. The knowledge is right there.
For review of biology or chemistry, there are charts, illustrated books,
video games, all kinds of things which are not a straight-out Biology 101
course, three hours, with one hour lab (or the 9th grade equivalent).
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/01 11:31:13 AM, leschke@... writes:
<< If a kid wants to learn
something like chemistry, for instance, and gets stuck or just doesn't even
know where to start, that's where our job as facilitator comes in. At that
point our teaching them something, or finding someone to teach them
something, is still unschooling because they've asked for it. >>
Okay. My objection was to assigned math because a (young) child said he
might want to be an engineer someday.
Me answering questions or passing a questioning kid to someone who knows
answers I don't know isn't the same as me thinking a stated interest is a
request for a course of study separate from the particular questions in the
child's head.
A kid who asks about the name of an angle hasn't just requested a 36 week
course in geometry.
A child who says "I love horses and would love to be a vet" hasn't just asked
you to make her take a chemistry course.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< If a kid wants to learn
something like chemistry, for instance, and gets stuck or just doesn't even
know where to start, that's where our job as facilitator comes in. At that
point our teaching them something, or finding someone to teach them
something, is still unschooling because they've asked for it. >>
Okay. My objection was to assigned math because a (young) child said he
might want to be an engineer someday.
Me answering questions or passing a questioning kid to someone who knows
answers I don't know isn't the same as me thinking a stated interest is a
request for a course of study separate from the particular questions in the
child's head.
A kid who asks about the name of an angle hasn't just requested a 36 week
course in geometry.
A child who says "I love horses and would love to be a vet" hasn't just asked
you to make her take a chemistry course.
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 09:09:56 -0400 zarah@... writes:
We have lots of "stuff" around, stuff that either Cacie or I saw
somewhere that we thought might be interesting, or stuff that migrated to
our house somehow... actually, we have no workbooks, except fopr the
miquon books. We got those about 6 months ago, because I had seen them
and liked the sort of problem-solving, pattern-finding approach they
used, and Cacie was going through a phase where she liked solving
arithmetic problems orally and liked solving logic problems on paper and
online. So, I got them, opened it up, showed her, and asked if she wanted
to try it. She said okay, and for a few weeks did maybe 5 pages a week.
She hadn't had much experience in writing numbers, so she was really
getting off on forming the numerals very neatly and not backwards. The
books also had sections where you made up your own problems, and she
liked to make really long ones. Her interest sort of ebbed after a month
or so, and now she hasn't picked up the books in probably 6 months. I
still think they're cool, I've thumbed through most of them myself, but
if she never does another page in them I won't be concerned at all. She
actually says she loves math, and yesterday we had some conversation that
ended up with us writing the 9 and 11 multiplication facts, because of
the patterns...
if I were, say, halfway through trimming the cats' toenails or
stir-frying lunch or reading a chapter in Princess Bride. OTOH, if I were
sweeping the floor or folding laundry or reading email I probably would.
I don't see anything wrong in asking my daughter (8) to wait for 20
minutes for my help - I have my own life, too. Likewise, if I wanted her
help carrying the futon outside, I would certainly wait while she
finished her game of Hearts on the computer or her chapter on Calvin and
Hobbes. I see it as a mutual respect thing. I would probably expect an 8
year old to be able to wait longer than a 4 yr old.
Daron
> Given the age of her-- and my-- son, how would picking them up anddoing
> them be an option that they even know exists (at least the firsttime?)
We have lots of "stuff" around, stuff that either Cacie or I saw
somewhere that we thought might be interesting, or stuff that migrated to
our house somehow... actually, we have no workbooks, except fopr the
miquon books. We got those about 6 months ago, because I had seen them
and liked the sort of problem-solving, pattern-finding approach they
used, and Cacie was going through a phase where she liked solving
arithmetic problems orally and liked solving logic problems on paper and
online. So, I got them, opened it up, showed her, and asked if she wanted
to try it. She said okay, and for a few weeks did maybe 5 pages a week.
She hadn't had much experience in writing numbers, so she was really
getting off on forming the numerals very neatly and not backwards. The
books also had sections where you made up your own problems, and she
liked to make really long ones. Her interest sort of ebbed after a month
or so, and now she hasn't picked up the books in probably 6 months. I
still think they're cool, I've thumbed through most of them myself, but
if she never does another page in them I won't be concerned at all. She
actually says she loves math, and yesterday we had some conversation that
ended up with us writing the 9 and 11 multiplication facts, because of
the patterns...
> Within the philosophy you explained, would you feel that if my son didpick
> one up and want to do it, I should drop whatever I'm doing to work onit
> with him at that moment?It would depend on what I was doing. I probably wouldn't drop everything
if I were, say, halfway through trimming the cats' toenails or
stir-frying lunch or reading a chapter in Princess Bride. OTOH, if I were
sweeping the floor or folding laundry or reading email I probably would.
I don't see anything wrong in asking my daughter (8) to wait for 20
minutes for my help - I have my own life, too. Likewise, if I wanted her
help carrying the futon outside, I would certainly wait while she
finished her game of Hearts on the computer or her chapter on Calvin and
Hobbes. I see it as a mutual respect thing. I would probably expect an 8
year old to be able to wait longer than a 4 yr old.
Daron
Saga
-----Original Message-----
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
<<A child who says "I love horses and would love to be a vet" hasn't just
asked
you to make her take a chemistry course.>>
No, but are you going to say "that's nice, you can be anything you want" or
are you goiung to say "if you really want to be a vet I can help you find
out what it takes to do that" and then if the child grows and decides that
is the path she wants to take help her find the resources to do it.
I'm not saying if one has a specific leaning towards a particular field to
prepare them for it, I am just saying that if a child is interested in a
particular field, and wants to explore that area, there are some
prerequisites they will need to know. The parent does not have to sit them
down and make them learn it. All the parent needs to do is let the child
know how to find out what it all entails. Unearth resources so the child
can get a better look at what is needed. And if the child wants to learn
those things, help them or find the help needed to help them, if any help is
required at all.
You don't need to jump at every whim - but you don't need to ignore a
child's passions.
-Kristi
From: SandraDodd@... [mailto:SandraDodd@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
<<A child who says "I love horses and would love to be a vet" hasn't just
asked
you to make her take a chemistry course.>>
No, but are you going to say "that's nice, you can be anything you want" or
are you goiung to say "if you really want to be a vet I can help you find
out what it takes to do that" and then if the child grows and decides that
is the path she wants to take help her find the resources to do it.
I'm not saying if one has a specific leaning towards a particular field to
prepare them for it, I am just saying that if a child is interested in a
particular field, and wants to explore that area, there are some
prerequisites they will need to know. The parent does not have to sit them
down and make them learn it. All the parent needs to do is let the child
know how to find out what it all entails. Unearth resources so the child
can get a better look at what is needed. And if the child wants to learn
those things, help them or find the help needed to help them, if any help is
required at all.
You don't need to jump at every whim - but you don't need to ignore a
child's passions.
-Kristi
Saga
My son (2 1/2) will play with his cars, line them all up, count them, take
some away, count them, add some, count them... every once in awhile I'll ask
him what he's doing and he'll say "making different numbers".
He knows that plus means to add to, subtract means to take away. And he
knows that if you have two cars and you add two more cars you have four, by
memory.
All from playing (and a little explanation from my husband or me about what
he's doing if he looks at us confused or amazed) he's teaching himself
addition and subtraction.
-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ferguson [mailto:crma@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 12:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
<snipped>
In my experience children under the age of 8 or so don't really grasp the
abstract 3 + 4 = ?? type of math. It is better to use manipulatives -
if I have 3 M&Ms and get 4 more, how many do I have? Any thing (popsicle
sticks, M&Ms, cheerios, blocks) can be used as manipulatives. Once a
young child *sees* it and *touches* it, it is much easier for them to
relate to it.
some away, count them, add some, count them... every once in awhile I'll ask
him what he's doing and he'll say "making different numbers".
He knows that plus means to add to, subtract means to take away. And he
knows that if you have two cars and you add two more cars you have four, by
memory.
All from playing (and a little explanation from my husband or me about what
he's doing if he looks at us confused or amazed) he's teaching himself
addition and subtraction.
-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ferguson [mailto:crma@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 12:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
<snipped>
In my experience children under the age of 8 or so don't really grasp the
abstract 3 + 4 = ?? type of math. It is better to use manipulatives -
if I have 3 M&Ms and get 4 more, how many do I have? Any thing (popsicle
sticks, M&Ms, cheerios, blocks) can be used as manipulatives. Once a
young child *sees* it and *touches* it, it is much easier for them to
relate to it.
Saga
<<For review of biology or chemistry, there are charts, illustrated books,
video games, all kinds of things which are not a straight-out Biology 101
course, three hours, with one hour lab (or the 9th grade equivalent). >>
That is all I am saying - knowledge can be learned in many ways, and each
child will want to learn differently. I'm not talking about taking a course
or doing worksheets , I am talking about gaining knowledge in *some* way.
There are thousands of ways to do research, there are thousands of ways to
acquire knowledge. Let the child choose what way is best for her, but she
has to know what her options are. And that is where the parent comes in.
-Kristi
video games, all kinds of things which are not a straight-out Biology 101
course, three hours, with one hour lab (or the 9th grade equivalent). >>
That is all I am saying - knowledge can be learned in many ways, and each
child will want to learn differently. I'm not talking about taking a course
or doing worksheets , I am talking about gaining knowledge in *some* way.
There are thousands of ways to do research, there are thousands of ways to
acquire knowledge. Let the child choose what way is best for her, but she
has to know what her options are. And that is where the parent comes in.
-Kristi
Saga
You pick up on math in use, yes... but if you don't know what things are
called and how to apply them to various situations it is a little more
difficult to pass the placement exam :)
You can teach yourself math, but some resources would probably be helpful
(like a book, tutor, software, etc) in order to learn everything needed to
jump right into a calculus class in college.
-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ferguson [mailto:crma@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 12:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
Saga wrote:
don't stand around and solve integral or differential calculus problems
but do we approximations all the time. Driving is a good example of
that one! I use topology when I am trying to untie a knot for my
children or when I am sewing a garment, as another example. Of course
you and I might disagree on what disciplines are included in advanced
math! I have a BS in math, a MS in computer science where I specialized in
simulation (ie using the physics to make the computer simulate parts
of the real world) so I see math every where!
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
called and how to apply them to various situations it is a little more
difficult to pass the placement exam :)
You can teach yourself math, but some resources would probably be helpful
(like a book, tutor, software, etc) in order to learn everything needed to
jump right into a calculus class in college.
-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ferguson [mailto:crma@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 12:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Re: Unschooling math etc.
Saga wrote:
>able
> I understand what you are saying and agree with you... to a point :)
> My husband would not have his current job, or be able to aspire to the job
> he wants, without having his degree in Physics. He would not have been
> to get that degree in Physics without knowledge in advanced math. It is aI disagree with you. Advanced math is part of everyday life. Maybe we
> little bit hard to pick up advanced math in everyday life...
>
don't stand around and solve integral or differential calculus problems
but do we approximations all the time. Driving is a good example of
that one! I use topology when I am trying to untie a knot for my
children or when I am sewing a garment, as another example. Of course
you and I might disagree on what disciplines are included in advanced
math! I have a BS in math, a MS in computer science where I specialized in
simulation (ie using the physics to make the computer simulate parts
of the real world) so I see math every where!
--
Cindy Ferguson
crma@...
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/