Circumcision
[email protected]
My boys aren't circumcised. This next part might not make as much sense to
the Brits and Canadians: I had Kirby in an HMO hospital and they asked once
about circumcision and I said no, the "no" counted.
I had Marty two and a half years later in a county-funded, university-run
teaching hospital. They asked me THREE TIMES, three different people, three
different shifts. That, frankly, is dangerous in this country because LOTS
of boys are done without them asking the parents as it used to be so routine.
I said either to write it big on a chart or get me a permanent marker so I
could write it on his belly, because the answer was no.
I was talking to my uncle who is 68 and was born at home. He was asking
question about my dad, who would be 75 now but he's not living. My uncle
wasn't circumcised. My dad was circumcised when he was 8 because he got an
infection.
It became common when "scientific" hospital births became so common, in the
1950's, I guess. The mom wasn't even awake from her full anesthesia before
the poor baby was cut.
Kind of like an innoculation, one scientific (I use the word sarcastically)
justification given was that eastern European Jewish women never got cervical
cancer. And their husbands were all circumcised. Therefor we should
circumcise all American boys so their future wives would never get cervical
cancer.
Huh.
Well, if their future wives were eastern European Jews, that would work out
great because I read later an "ooops" report which said it was genetic, that
they didn't get cancer, not caused by "cleaner" penises.
I can only think of it in short bursts because it's so sad, but I do press
information on pregnant friends and I press it hard because I can't bear the
thought of the sorrow of someone saying "I didn't know" or "Why didn't you
tell me?"
Many nurses and doctors in New Mexico are against it and won't do it, advise
against it, and won't participate in the procedure.
There's a website of a group called NoCirc but I don't know if it's .com or
.net or what. Don't go there if you're clinically depressed and you had your
boys circumcised. Maybe just don't go there if you're clinically depressed
period. Save it to ruin a brighter day.
If we don't look, though, it will keep on happening.
Sandra
Sandra
the Brits and Canadians: I had Kirby in an HMO hospital and they asked once
about circumcision and I said no, the "no" counted.
I had Marty two and a half years later in a county-funded, university-run
teaching hospital. They asked me THREE TIMES, three different people, three
different shifts. That, frankly, is dangerous in this country because LOTS
of boys are done without them asking the parents as it used to be so routine.
I said either to write it big on a chart or get me a permanent marker so I
could write it on his belly, because the answer was no.
I was talking to my uncle who is 68 and was born at home. He was asking
question about my dad, who would be 75 now but he's not living. My uncle
wasn't circumcised. My dad was circumcised when he was 8 because he got an
infection.
It became common when "scientific" hospital births became so common, in the
1950's, I guess. The mom wasn't even awake from her full anesthesia before
the poor baby was cut.
Kind of like an innoculation, one scientific (I use the word sarcastically)
justification given was that eastern European Jewish women never got cervical
cancer. And their husbands were all circumcised. Therefor we should
circumcise all American boys so their future wives would never get cervical
cancer.
Huh.
Well, if their future wives were eastern European Jews, that would work out
great because I read later an "ooops" report which said it was genetic, that
they didn't get cancer, not caused by "cleaner" penises.
I can only think of it in short bursts because it's so sad, but I do press
information on pregnant friends and I press it hard because I can't bear the
thought of the sorrow of someone saying "I didn't know" or "Why didn't you
tell me?"
Many nurses and doctors in New Mexico are against it and won't do it, advise
against it, and won't participate in the procedure.
There's a website of a group called NoCirc but I don't know if it's .com or
.net or what. Don't go there if you're clinically depressed and you had your
boys circumcised. Maybe just don't go there if you're clinically depressed
period. Save it to ruin a brighter day.
If we don't look, though, it will keep on happening.
Sandra
Sandra
Vicki A. Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 10:24 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Circumcision
y because LOTS
> of boys are done without them asking the parents as it used to be so routine.
> I said either to write it big on a chart or get me a permanent marker so I
> could write it on his belly, because the answer was no.
Although I had my boys at home, with the first one I did pre register at a
hospital as a "back-up" in case of problems.
Right there on the preadmitting form (legal size page filled with small print
multiple paragraphs) was a sentence authorizing circumcision if the child was
male. Only because I am a compulsive reader as well as generally mistrustful
of signing long waiver/consent forms did I even see it.
I marked it out and wrote in a specific NON-consent for the procedure but I
imagine that many mothers never even realize they have given written consent for
a surgical procedure and no one will ask them even once after the son is born!
vicki
[email protected]
When my oldest son was about to be born his dad and I talked about
circumcision and I went along with the "he should look like me
argument". The day our son was born his dad got stuck in New York
and didn't make it back to Calif in time...long story. Anyway, the
day after his birth the dr came to my hospital room (we had a C-
section)and asked if I still wanted a circumcision. Our son was born
10 lbs 15 oz and was 22 1/2 inches long. The dr explained that
because of his size he would have to take him into an operating room
and give him a general anesnetic to perform this operation. I of
course said "WHAT??" This seemed extreme even in my post operative,
confused mind. I then followed with "no way - no how".
When I spoke with dad on the phone that day he went ballistic.
(Being 3000 miles away and unable to get a flight back home was
causing him a lot of grief...Stress was sending him way over the top
that day.) I ended up hanging up on him (twice). When he had calmed
down he called back again and listened when I told him what the dr
had actually said. His response was "Don't let that quack anywhere
near my son!" When we all got home safely we had a long talk (daddy
talked with two other doctors) and we decided circumcision was not
going to happen. Since then (1985) he has read a lot about this
procedure and is thankful I made this decision. When our youngest son
was born the subject never even came up. Uninformed decisions about
health care are made every day in stressful situations. I wish I had
had some kind of a health care advocate with me that day who was not
connected with the dr or the hospital or the insurance company.
Jan
circumcision and I went along with the "he should look like me
argument". The day our son was born his dad got stuck in New York
and didn't make it back to Calif in time...long story. Anyway, the
day after his birth the dr came to my hospital room (we had a C-
section)and asked if I still wanted a circumcision. Our son was born
10 lbs 15 oz and was 22 1/2 inches long. The dr explained that
because of his size he would have to take him into an operating room
and give him a general anesnetic to perform this operation. I of
course said "WHAT??" This seemed extreme even in my post operative,
confused mind. I then followed with "no way - no how".
When I spoke with dad on the phone that day he went ballistic.
(Being 3000 miles away and unable to get a flight back home was
causing him a lot of grief...Stress was sending him way over the top
that day.) I ended up hanging up on him (twice). When he had calmed
down he called back again and listened when I told him what the dr
had actually said. His response was "Don't let that quack anywhere
near my son!" When we all got home safely we had a long talk (daddy
talked with two other doctors) and we decided circumcision was not
going to happen. Since then (1985) he has read a lot about this
procedure and is thankful I made this decision. When our youngest son
was born the subject never even came up. Uninformed decisions about
health care are made every day in stressful situations. I wish I had
had some kind of a health care advocate with me that day who was not
connected with the dr or the hospital or the insurance company.
Jan
[email protected]
I quote SandraDodd@..., who wrote:
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/
I don't think this site is as depressing, <g> but it is full of facts.
--
Cheryl <zarah@...> zone 7b in NC
homepreschooling Mom to
Gabriel (10/28/97) & Maris (6/23/00)
>There's a website of a group called NoCirc but I don't know if it's .com orCome join us at Mothers Against Circumcision!
>.net or what. Don't go there if you're clinically depressed and you had your
>boys circumcised. Maybe just don't go there if you're clinically depressed
>period. Save it to ruin a brighter day.
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/
I don't think this site is as depressing, <g> but it is full of facts.
--
Cheryl <zarah@...> zone 7b in NC
homepreschooling Mom to
Gabriel (10/28/97) & Maris (6/23/00)
Lynda
What they don't tell either is the number that are bungled! Many boys have
to go in later and have the circumcision redone!
Another reason that it hasn't stop is that it is one of those things
insurance companies don't question, they just pay. Good money for 5 minutes
of the doc's time!
Lynda
to go in later and have the circumcision redone!
Another reason that it hasn't stop is that it is one of those things
insurance companies don't question, they just pay. Good money for 5 minutes
of the doc's time!
Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 8:24 AM
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Circumcision
> My boys aren't circumcised. This next part might not make as much sense
to
> the Brits and Canadians: I had Kirby in an HMO hospital and they asked
once
> about circumcision and I said no, the "no" counted.
>
> I had Marty two and a half years later in a county-funded, university-run
> teaching hospital. They asked me THREE TIMES, three different people,
three
> different shifts. That, frankly, is dangerous in this country because
LOTS
> of boys are done without them asking the parents as it used to be so
routine.
> I said either to write it big on a chart or get me a permanent marker so
I
> could write it on his belly, because the answer was no.
>
> I was talking to my uncle who is 68 and was born at home. He was asking
> question about my dad, who would be 75 now but he's not living. My uncle
> wasn't circumcised. My dad was circumcised when he was 8 because he got
an
> infection.
>
> It became common when "scientific" hospital births became so common, in
the
> 1950's, I guess. The mom wasn't even awake from her full anesthesia
before
> the poor baby was cut.
>
> Kind of like an innoculation, one scientific (I use the word
sarcastically)
> justification given was that eastern European Jewish women never got
cervical
> cancer. And their husbands were all circumcised. Therefor we should
> circumcise all American boys so their future wives would never get
cervical
> cancer.
>
> Huh.
>
> Well, if their future wives were eastern European Jews, that would work
out
> great because I read later an "ooops" report which said it was genetic,
that
> they didn't get cancer, not caused by "cleaner" penises.
>
> I can only think of it in short bursts because it's so sad, but I do press
> information on pregnant friends and I press it hard because I can't bear
the
> thought of the sorrow of someone saying "I didn't know" or "Why didn't you
> tell me?"
>
> Many nurses and doctors in New Mexico are against it and won't do it,
advise
> against it, and won't participate in the procedure.
>
> There's a website of a group called NoCirc but I don't know if it's .com
or
> .net or what. Don't go there if you're clinically depressed and you had
your
> boys circumcised. Maybe just don't go there if you're clinically
depressed
> period. Save it to ruin a brighter day.
>
> If we don't look, though, it will keep on happening.
>
> Sandra
>
> Sandra
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
Vicki A. Dennis
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lynda" <lurine@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 12:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Circumcision
> What they don't tell either is the number that are bungled! Many boys have
> to go in later and have the circumcision redone!
Those might be the lucky ones. In the 70's and 80's doing "bloodless" laser
circumcisions became a fad. Some medical schools ended up forbidding their
students and interns from doing the procedure after several unfortunate
incidents where it was suggested that the infant be raised as a girl with
gender transforming surgery planned for the future. (this was before the more
modern studies suggesting that gender identification is determined by more than
physical anatomy). That was also a period of infighting as to whether the
ob-gyn or pediatrician should do the surgery (since ob-gyn is a "surgical"
specialty). There were areas where boys foreskins were cut before leaving the
delivery room---sometimes even before the umbilical was cut.
Vicki---who lived with an ob-gyn resident in the late 70's.
vicki
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/10/01 10:12:41 AM, mamaxaos@... writes:
<< Right there on the preadmitting form (legal size page filled with small
print
multiple paragraphs) was a sentence authorizing circumcision if the child was
male. Only because I am a compulsive reader as well as generally
mistrustful
of signing long waiver/consent forms did I even see it. >>
Vicki, I wish I could think you had that baby in 1955.
When I read what you wrote my head immediately hurt. I think I'm having a
stroke. I'm going to look at the window and think lovely thoughts.
Sandra
<< Right there on the preadmitting form (legal size page filled with small
multiple paragraphs) was a sentence authorizing circumcision if the child was
male. Only because I am a compulsive reader as well as generally
mistrustful
of signing long waiver/consent forms did I even see it. >>
Vicki, I wish I could think you had that baby in 1955.
When I read what you wrote my head immediately hurt. I think I'm having a
stroke. I'm going to look at the window and think lovely thoughts.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/10/01 11:12:49 AM, mchawkins@... writes:
<< The dr explained that
because of his size he would have to take him into an operating room
and give him a general anesnetic to perform this operation. I of
course said "WHAT??" This seemed extreme even in my post operative,
confused mind. >>
I hope your husband wouldn't have thought him any less a quack if he'd been
willing to strap him down like they do most babies and just let him scream
until he passed out, as they do most babies.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< The dr explained that
because of his size he would have to take him into an operating room
and give him a general anesnetic to perform this operation. I of
course said "WHAT??" This seemed extreme even in my post operative,
confused mind. >>
I hope your husband wouldn't have thought him any less a quack if he'd been
willing to strap him down like they do most babies and just let him scream
until he passed out, as they do most babies.
Sandra
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Johanna SanInocencio
Cheryl, I am momma to a Gabriel born in 97 too. Also uncircumcised.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: <zarah@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 12:16 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Circumcision
> I quote SandraDodd@..., who wrote:
> >There's a website of a group called NoCirc but I don't know if it's .com
or
> >.net or what. Don't go there if you're clinically depressed and you had
your
> >boys circumcised. Maybe just don't go there if you're clinically
depressed
> >period. Save it to ruin a brighter day.
>
> Come join us at Mothers Against Circumcision!
> http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/
>
> I don't think this site is as depressing, <g> but it is full of facts.
> --
> Cheryl <zarah@...> zone 7b in NC
> homepreschooling Mom to
> Gabriel (10/28/97) & Maris (6/23/00)
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
Sandra,
I didn't realize until all this went on how little men know about
how this operation is done. My ex (who falls apart at the mention of
blood) had no idea what the procedure was until he personally talked
with the dr. Like I said, the second time around there was never any
discussion about circumcision. Neither one of us were going to let
this happen to our sons.
Jan
I didn't realize until all this went on how little men know about
how this operation is done. My ex (who falls apart at the mention of
blood) had no idea what the procedure was until he personally talked
with the dr. Like I said, the second time around there was never any
discussion about circumcision. Neither one of us were going to let
this happen to our sons.
Jan
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/10/01 11:12:49 AM, mchawkins@s... writes:
>
> << The dr explained that
> because of his size he would have to take him into an operating
room
> and give him a general anesnetic to perform this operation. I of
> course said "WHAT??" This seemed extreme even in my post
operative,
> confused mind. >>
>
> I hope your husband wouldn't have thought him any less a quack if
he'd been
> willing to strap him down like they do most babies and just let him
scream
> until he passed out, as they do most babies.
>
> Sandra
>
> Sandra
>
> "Everything counts."
> http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
> http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/01 1:15:24 PM, shyrley@... writes:
<< Is this standard practise in county hospitals? Is there
any thing else I should watch out for when having a
baby in an American hospital? >>
I didn't finish making my whole point (Sorry)--which is that it's not only a
government funded hospital used to dealing with people who don't know or care
as much as lots of the people in this discussion, but it's a teaching
hospital so little groups of interns come through all the time and they are
often going by the favorite book of their teacher, and the residents are
nervous about who they have to answer to, and it's just not as
straightforward as business at a private or HMO hospital.
"Birth plan" is a buzz word you can use, though. Write up what you want and
don't want, get them to fasten it in your folder, have copies for others when
you get there, and remind them it exists. It might save you some time
trying to negotiate or defend your knowledge between contractions.
Things have changed a lot in the past twenty years, gradually but steadily.
There are still some backwards stubborn places that haven't thrown out the
old literature or policies. I had to argue to keep Holly in the room with
me, even though she was my third. That was less than ten years ago.
But on the better news front, a friend just had a three-month-premature baby
three days ago and they waited for her milk to come in before giving him
anything except IV fluids into his umbilical cord/stump/place/thing. No
formula of any sort. Cool.
Sandra
Sandra
---------------------------------------------
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< Is this standard practise in county hospitals? Is there
any thing else I should watch out for when having a
baby in an American hospital? >>
I didn't finish making my whole point (Sorry)--which is that it's not only a
government funded hospital used to dealing with people who don't know or care
as much as lots of the people in this discussion, but it's a teaching
hospital so little groups of interns come through all the time and they are
often going by the favorite book of their teacher, and the residents are
nervous about who they have to answer to, and it's just not as
straightforward as business at a private or HMO hospital.
"Birth plan" is a buzz word you can use, though. Write up what you want and
don't want, get them to fasten it in your folder, have copies for others when
you get there, and remind them it exists. It might save you some time
trying to negotiate or defend your knowledge between contractions.
Things have changed a lot in the past twenty years, gradually but steadily.
There are still some backwards stubborn places that haven't thrown out the
old literature or policies. I had to argue to keep Holly in the room with
me, even though she was my third. That was less than ten years ago.
But on the better news front, a friend just had a three-month-premature baby
three days ago and they waited for her milk to come in before giving him
anything except IV fluids into his umbilical cord/stump/place/thing. No
formula of any sort. Cool.
Sandra
Sandra
---------------------------------------------
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
Tracy Oldfield
But on the better news front, a friend just had a three-
month-premature baby
three days ago and they waited for her milk to come in
before giving him
anything except IV fluids into his umbilical
cord/stump/place/thing. No
formula of any sort. Cool.
Sandra
.
Didn't they have her giving her colostrum? And now
that he's getting milk how is he getting it? I found a
link earlier for kangaroo care...
www.geocities.com/roopage Give her my regards and I
hope she can keep hold of the feeling that he's hers,
not the hospital's...
Tracy
month-premature baby
three days ago and they waited for her milk to come in
before giving him
anything except IV fluids into his umbilical
cord/stump/place/thing. No
formula of any sort. Cool.
Sandra
.
Didn't they have her giving her colostrum? And now
that he's getting milk how is he getting it? I found a
link earlier for kangaroo care...
www.geocities.com/roopage Give her my regards and I
hope she can keep hold of the feeling that he's hers,
not the hospital's...
Tracy
[email protected]
When my first son was born we ended up with an unexpected C-Section
and Daddy in an airport 3,000 miles away. My best friend is an RN.
She went with me to the hospital. I don't remember a lot about that
first delivery, but I do remember the look on my friend's face when a
snippy little nurse suggested I wasn't trying hard enough!! My
friend was a charge nurse in another hospital. She had the most
wicked smile on her face all the time she was chewing out that
nurse. My doctor was at my bedside in less than five minutes and we
had a whole new set of nurses. My friend was even allowed in the
operating room even though we had been told this wasn't going to be
possible since she was from another hospital.
The second son was born with a scheduled C-section with Aunt Judi by
my side all the way through....Best advice...take your own bossy
nurse with you.
Jan in Marysville
and Daddy in an airport 3,000 miles away. My best friend is an RN.
She went with me to the hospital. I don't remember a lot about that
first delivery, but I do remember the look on my friend's face when a
snippy little nurse suggested I wasn't trying hard enough!! My
friend was a charge nurse in another hospital. She had the most
wicked smile on her face all the time she was chewing out that
nurse. My doctor was at my bedside in less than five minutes and we
had a whole new set of nurses. My friend was even allowed in the
operating room even though we had been told this wasn't going to be
possible since she was from another hospital.
The second son was born with a scheduled C-section with Aunt Judi by
my side all the way through....Best advice...take your own bossy
nurse with you.
Jan in Marysville
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 8/12/01 1:15:24 PM, shyrley@s... writes:
>
> << Is this standard practise in county hospitals? Is there
> any thing else I should watch out for when having a
> baby in an American hospital? >>
>
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/01 2:15:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
shyrley@... writes:
a home birth! :-)
i have heard stories of families heavily persuaded into choosing to
circumcise-not really knowing their options, but none in the last few years
that just plain weren't asked.
I repeat the suggestion of the 'birth plan', but also making sure that
someone else is able to back it up if you may have some weak times. ha ha.
another option is a doula. they serve many purposes, one of which can be to
run interference between a birthing mother and hospital 'authority'.
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shyrley@... writes:
> Having moved here from England a few months ago I'di just can't resist here.....there's no chance of an unwanted circumcision at
> never heard that circumcision is routine in America.
> I've batteld with the INS to let us in vaccinated, I
> home-educate following an autonomous approach and am
> ready to do battle with the state when they find out.
>
> While I'm ready to take on hospitals too, straight
> after a caesareansection I'm not usually at my best.
>
> Is this standard practise in county hospitals? Is there
> any thing else I should watch out for when having a
> baby in an American hospital?
> Sigh.
>
> Shyrley the expat
>
>
a home birth! :-)
i have heard stories of families heavily persuaded into choosing to
circumcise-not really knowing their options, but none in the last few years
that just plain weren't asked.
I repeat the suggestion of the 'birth plan', but also making sure that
someone else is able to back it up if you may have some weak times. ha ha.
another option is a doula. they serve many purposes, one of which can be to
run interference between a birthing mother and hospital 'authority'.
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
frazzledmom
We did not circ our sons (born in '93 and '00).
I had never really given it much thought, but when I was pg with my first
child, my aunt sent me some info on it. Reading that, we decided against
doing it, even though my dh was circ'd (he really didn't care if our sons
"look like him").
So, we didn't. We are unusual for our neck of the woods, though.
...Lizz in Iowa,
mom to Megan (9yo), Aleksandr (7yo), Celina (5yo) and Liam (16mo)
I had never really given it much thought, but when I was pg with my first
child, my aunt sent me some info on it. Reading that, we decided against
doing it, even though my dh was circ'd (he really didn't care if our sons
"look like him").
So, we didn't. We are unusual for our neck of the woods, though.
...Lizz in Iowa,
mom to Megan (9yo), Aleksandr (7yo), Celina (5yo) and Liam (16mo)
Saga
I didn't have any problems. The doctor had a form stating how much a
circumcision would cost, and I had to sign it saying I understood. And then
he had a form saying whether or not I wanted the baby circumcised if it was
a boy. It was required, and I had to initial a bunch of places saying I
understood the procedure and the risks of it all, and then choose yes or no.
I chose no, but it would have been very difficult to be misunderstood with
what I had to go through. There was even a booklet with diagrams and stuff
and I had to sign a thing saying I was given it.
I guess they must have had some law suits around here or something for them
to be so thorough! Both of my births (one in California at a regular
hospital, one in Oregon at a university hospital) had similar procedures as
far as making sure I signed a bunch of forms and got a bunch of information
about circumcision.
And I didn't have any problems with any of the other things...
Didn't have an episiotomy - said I didn't want one, doctors said fine, they
usually don't do them anyway. My first doctor actually told me if I said I
don't want one, and they did one, it is considered battery and they'd get
into a lot of trouble. Just put everything in writing. I would assume the
same would go for circumcision, if it is against your will, that would be
battery.
I just did up a birth plan, but it turned out I didn't need one. My last
birth they even offered to dim lights, help me into various positions,
suggested rocking in a rocking chair, taking a shower, brought in soothing
CDs to play... they were great! Automatically put the baby immediately to my
breast before the cord was even cut.
So not all hospitals are nasty :)
-Kristi
-----Original Message-----
From: brendaclaspell@... [mailto:brendaclaspell@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 7:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Circumcision
In a message dated 8/12/01 2:15:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
shyrley@... writes:
at
a home birth! :-)
i have heard stories of families heavily persuaded into choosing to
circumcise-not really knowing their options, but none in the last few years
that just plain weren't asked.
I repeat the suggestion of the 'birth plan', but also making sure that
someone else is able to back it up if you may have some weak times. ha ha.
another option is a doula. they serve many purposes, one of which can be to
run interference between a birthing mother and hospital 'authority'.
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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circumcision would cost, and I had to sign it saying I understood. And then
he had a form saying whether or not I wanted the baby circumcised if it was
a boy. It was required, and I had to initial a bunch of places saying I
understood the procedure and the risks of it all, and then choose yes or no.
I chose no, but it would have been very difficult to be misunderstood with
what I had to go through. There was even a booklet with diagrams and stuff
and I had to sign a thing saying I was given it.
I guess they must have had some law suits around here or something for them
to be so thorough! Both of my births (one in California at a regular
hospital, one in Oregon at a university hospital) had similar procedures as
far as making sure I signed a bunch of forms and got a bunch of information
about circumcision.
And I didn't have any problems with any of the other things...
Didn't have an episiotomy - said I didn't want one, doctors said fine, they
usually don't do them anyway. My first doctor actually told me if I said I
don't want one, and they did one, it is considered battery and they'd get
into a lot of trouble. Just put everything in writing. I would assume the
same would go for circumcision, if it is against your will, that would be
battery.
I just did up a birth plan, but it turned out I didn't need one. My last
birth they even offered to dim lights, help me into various positions,
suggested rocking in a rocking chair, taking a shower, brought in soothing
CDs to play... they were great! Automatically put the baby immediately to my
breast before the cord was even cut.
So not all hospitals are nasty :)
-Kristi
-----Original Message-----
From: brendaclaspell@... [mailto:brendaclaspell@...]
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 7:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Circumcision
In a message dated 8/12/01 2:15:42 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
shyrley@... writes:
> Having moved here from England a few months ago I'di just can't resist here.....there's no chance of an unwanted circumcision
> never heard that circumcision is routine in America.
> I've batteld with the INS to let us in vaccinated, I
> home-educate following an autonomous approach and am
> ready to do battle with the state when they find out.
>
> While I'm ready to take on hospitals too, straight
> after a caesareansection I'm not usually at my best.
>
> Is this standard practise in county hospitals? Is there
> any thing else I should watch out for when having a
> baby in an American hospital?
> Sigh.
>
> Shyrley the expat
>
>
at
a home birth! :-)
i have heard stories of families heavily persuaded into choosing to
circumcise-not really knowing their options, but none in the last few years
that just plain weren't asked.
I repeat the suggestion of the 'birth plan', but also making sure that
someone else is able to back it up if you may have some weak times. ha ha.
another option is a doula. they serve many purposes, one of which can be to
run interference between a birthing mother and hospital 'authority'.
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/01 5:28:39 PM, tracy.oldfield@... writes:
<< Didn't they have her giving her colostrum? And now
that he's getting milk how is he getting it? I found a
link earlier for kangaroo care... >>
Yes on colostrum, as much as she could pump out (not much) and they're giving
3ccs of milk at a time through a tiny feeding tube (through the mouth into
the stomach).
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
<< Didn't they have her giving her colostrum? And now
that he's getting milk how is he getting it? I found a
link earlier for kangaroo care... >>
Yes on colostrum, as much as she could pump out (not much) and they're giving
3ccs of milk at a time through a tiny feeding tube (through the mouth into
the stomach).
Sandra
"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/01 10:35:33 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mom@... writes:
experienced it can really seem that way at times.
i'm so glad your births went so well, it's good to hear happy birth stories
whether they happened at home, in the hospital or in the elevator. :-)
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mom@... writes:
> So not all hospitals are nasty :)i know they aren't, but with a lot of the horror stories i've heard and
>
>
experienced it can really seem that way at times.
i'm so glad your births went so well, it's good to hear happy birth stories
whether they happened at home, in the hospital or in the elevator. :-)
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/12/01 6:49:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
mchawkins@... writes:
<< ..Best advice...take your own bossy
nurse with you.
Kathy
mchawkins@... writes:
<< ..Best advice...take your own bossy
nurse with you.
>><gg> I got a chuckle out of this ; )
Kathy
Johanna SanInocencio
Sandra, I really like the Birth plan idea, with I had it with mine. People
thought I was straange when I said no circ, no formula and I want my son
with me as much as possible. When my second was born and needed an oxygen
tent, I refused to leave his side and they threatened to medicate me. i
learned to fight for my rights and assert myself but when I had my third,
they formula fed, even though I gave instructions not to. He had a hard time
starting on the breast because of it. we persevered though.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
thought I was straange when I said no circ, no formula and I want my son
with me as much as possible. When my second was born and needed an oxygen
tent, I refused to leave his side and they threatened to medicate me. i
learned to fight for my rights and assert myself but when I had my third,
they formula fed, even though I gave instructions not to. He had a hard time
starting on the breast because of it. we persevered though.
Johanna
Life is the ultimate learning experience!
----- Original Message -----
From: <SandraDodd@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Circumcision
>
> In a message dated 8/12/01 1:15:24 PM, shyrley@... writes:
>
> << Is this standard practise in county hospitals? Is there
> any thing else I should watch out for when having a
> baby in an American hospital? >>
>
> I didn't finish making my whole point (Sorry)--which is that it's not only
a
> government funded hospital used to dealing with people who don't know or
care
> as much as lots of the people in this discussion, but it's a teaching
> hospital so little groups of interns come through all the time and they
are
> often going by the favorite book of their teacher, and the residents are
> nervous about who they have to answer to, and it's just not as
> straightforward as business at a private or HMO hospital.
>
> "Birth plan" is a buzz word you can use, though. Write up what you want
and
> don't want, get them to fasten it in your folder, have copies for others
when
> you get there, and remind them it exists. It might save you some time
> trying to negotiate or defend your knowledge between contractions.
>
> Things have changed a lot in the past twenty years, gradually but
steadily.
> There are still some backwards stubborn places that haven't thrown out the
> old literature or policies. I had to argue to keep Holly in the room with
> me, even though she was my third. That was less than ten years ago.
>
> But on the better news front, a friend just had a three-month-premature
baby
> three days ago and they waited for her milk to come in before giving him
> anything except IV fluids into his umbilical cord/stump/place/thing. No
> formula of any sort. Cool.
>
> Sandra
>
> Sandra
> ---------------------------------------------
>
> Sandra
>
> "Everything counts."
> http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
> http://expage.com/SandraDodd
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
[email protected]
Kathy,
Someone mentioned their baby having blood tests in nursery. I had
forgotten my nurse friend took on these people, too. While I was
still in recovery my Mom & Dad were watching my son through the
nursery window and observed a nurse prick my son's heel to draw
blood. Mom found my friend and asked what was going on. Judi
entered the nursery (not quite invited) and demanded a stop to this
procedure. She told me they were checking for diabetes because he
was over ten pounds. She said this was a totally useless test
because I had already been tested and my son was not diabetic just
BIG. She insisted that my son be brought down to the recovery room
where she could keep an eye on both of us.
Needless to say we were not well liked by this hospital staff.
Second son was born in a hospital across the bay :o)
Jan
Someone mentioned their baby having blood tests in nursery. I had
forgotten my nurse friend took on these people, too. While I was
still in recovery my Mom & Dad were watching my son through the
nursery window and observed a nurse prick my son's heel to draw
blood. Mom found my friend and asked what was going on. Judi
entered the nursery (not quite invited) and demanded a stop to this
procedure. She told me they were checking for diabetes because he
was over ten pounds. She said this was a totally useless test
because I had already been tested and my son was not diabetic just
BIG. She insisted that my son be brought down to the recovery room
where she could keep an eye on both of us.
Needless to say we were not well liked by this hospital staff.
Second son was born in a hospital across the bay :o)
Jan
--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Natrlmama@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 8/12/01 6:49:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> mchawkins@s... writes:
>
> << ..Best advice...take your own bossy
> nurse with you.
> >>
> <gg> I got a chuckle out of this ; )
>
> Kathy
Tracy Oldfield
Kathy,
Someone mentioned their baby having blood tests in
nursery. I had
forgotten my nurse friend took on these people, too.
While I was
still in recovery my Mom & Dad were watching my son
through the
nursery window and observed a nurse prick my son's heel
to draw
blood. Mom found my friend and asked what was going
on. Judi
entered the nursery (not quite invited) and demanded a
stop to this
procedure. She told me they were checking for diabetes
because he
was over ten pounds. She said this was a totally
useless test
because I had already been tested and my son was not
diabetic just
BIG. She insisted that my son be brought down to the
recovery room
where she could keep an eye on both of us.
Needless to say we were not well liked by this hospital
staff.
Second son was born in a hospital across the bay :o)
Jan
They measure bilirubin in the heel-prick test,
necessary if one has an antibody 'problem' like me :-(
I hate it. Wonder if I'll get away without it this
time...
Tracy
Someone mentioned their baby having blood tests in
nursery. I had
forgotten my nurse friend took on these people, too.
While I was
still in recovery my Mom & Dad were watching my son
through the
nursery window and observed a nurse prick my son's heel
to draw
blood. Mom found my friend and asked what was going
on. Judi
entered the nursery (not quite invited) and demanded a
stop to this
procedure. She told me they were checking for diabetes
because he
was over ten pounds. She said this was a totally
useless test
because I had already been tested and my son was not
diabetic just
BIG. She insisted that my son be brought down to the
recovery room
where she could keep an eye on both of us.
Needless to say we were not well liked by this hospital
staff.
Second son was born in a hospital across the bay :o)
Jan
They measure bilirubin in the heel-prick test,
necessary if one has an antibody 'problem' like me :-(
I hate it. Wonder if I'll get away without it this
time...
Tracy
Saga
>>What's a doula?A doula is someone hired to take care of the mom in labor and afterwards at
home - she makes sure the mom has water, the birth plan is followed through,
that people don't talk to the mom during contractions, helps the mom through
the labor, usually without meds - is basically the sane one wgo is able to
be the go-between to help mom get the birth she wants. After the birth she
can also help with housdehold things, controlling the guests, making sure
mom gets her rest, etc.
-Kristi
(sorry for typos - I'm nursing ehile typing)
David Albert
I'm almost afraid to jump in. Sigh. This one causes so much pain. I grew up
Jewish, and had pre-Rabbinical training, and actually at one time headed a
Jewish religious school. Of course that was almost 30 years ago.
Now I refuse to attend circumcisions. Of course, people will do what they think
"best" for their child, or at least what their "jealous God" demands. From what
we think we know, the idea of circumcision came from the Egyptians, and the
attempt of the ancient Hebrews to look like them. We know this because Moses
actually had to command the circumcision of Hebrews while they were in the
desert -- most were uncircumcised. So we can say that if the Jews of this time
knew of the legacy of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc., etc., that legacy
definitely did NOT include circumcision.
Of course the jealous God could have wanted a piece of an earlobe, or the left
little toe. An interesting sign too -- most ancient tribes tatoo themselves or
self-mutilate in order that it be seen by others. Ancient Hebrews did it only
to be seen in the bedroom. Figure that one out.
Anyhow, people have strange customs. As long as it isn't done in hospitals with
money from my health insurance, or hospitals supported by federal or state
funds, I guess I'll have to live with it. There are lots of other things (like
state-funded taverns, oops, I mean baseball parks) that I have to live with to
(even public schools!)
David
Jewish, and had pre-Rabbinical training, and actually at one time headed a
Jewish religious school. Of course that was almost 30 years ago.
Now I refuse to attend circumcisions. Of course, people will do what they think
"best" for their child, or at least what their "jealous God" demands. From what
we think we know, the idea of circumcision came from the Egyptians, and the
attempt of the ancient Hebrews to look like them. We know this because Moses
actually had to command the circumcision of Hebrews while they were in the
desert -- most were uncircumcised. So we can say that if the Jews of this time
knew of the legacy of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, etc., etc., that legacy
definitely did NOT include circumcision.
Of course the jealous God could have wanted a piece of an earlobe, or the left
little toe. An interesting sign too -- most ancient tribes tatoo themselves or
self-mutilate in order that it be seen by others. Ancient Hebrews did it only
to be seen in the bedroom. Figure that one out.
Anyhow, people have strange customs. As long as it isn't done in hospitals with
money from my health insurance, or hospitals supported by federal or state
funds, I guess I'll have to live with it. There are lots of other things (like
state-funded taverns, oops, I mean baseball parks) that I have to live with to
(even public schools!)
David
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/13/01 7:43:20 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
mom@... writes:
i had a doula and a midwife at my birth. my doula travelled with this midwife
but she also assisted in many hospital births. she made me food and drinks
while i labored, she did some housework, she took over to help me when my
s.o. needed to sleep. i think of a doula as an all around personal nurse for
labor.
i don't know if this is common with all doulas, but she was also studying to
be a midwife, was a reflexologist, and had extensive knowledge about herbs.
some hospitals now are employing doulas. this may be a pro con situation
worth looking into. while they may be easily accessible it's important that
you're sure she's on your side should a conflict with the hospital come up.
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mom@... writes:
> >>What's a doula?thanks for posting that.
>
> A doula is someone hired to take care of the mom in labor and afterwards at
> home - she makes sure the mom has water, the birth plan is followed through,
> that people don't talk to the mom during contractions, helps the mom through
> the labor, usually without meds - is basically the sane one wgo is able to
> be the go-between to help mom get the birth she wants. After the birth she
> can also help with housdehold things, controlling the guests, making sure
> mom gets her rest, etc.
>
> -Kristi
>
>
i had a doula and a midwife at my birth. my doula travelled with this midwife
but she also assisted in many hospital births. she made me food and drinks
while i labored, she did some housework, she took over to help me when my
s.o. needed to sleep. i think of a doula as an all around personal nurse for
labor.
i don't know if this is common with all doulas, but she was also studying to
be a midwife, was a reflexologist, and had extensive knowledge about herbs.
some hospitals now are employing doulas. this may be a pro con situation
worth looking into. while they may be easily accessible it's important that
you're sure she's on your side should a conflict with the hospital come up.
brenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/13/2001 7:27:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tracy.oldfield@... writes:
> They measure bilirubin in the heel-prick test,Actually, its called the PKU test. . the heel prick one I mean.
>
lovemary
There are no mistakes, no coincidences. All events are blessings given to us
to learn from. - Elisabeth Kubler-Ross
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 8/13/01 9:37:01 PM Pacific Daylight Time, lite2yu@...
writes:
<< Actually, its called the PKU test. . the heel prick one I mean.
Kathy
writes:
<< Actually, its called the PKU test. . the heel prick one I mean.
>>Yup thats the one I was talking about.
Kathy
[email protected]
On 10 Aug 2001, at 11:24, SandraDodd@... wrote:
To: [email protected]
From: SandraDodd@...
Date sent: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:24:24 EDT
Send reply to: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Circumcision
My boys aren't circumcised. This next part might not
make as much sense to
the Brits and Canadians: I had Kirby in an HMO
hospital and they asked once
about circumcision and I said no, the "no" counted.
I had Marty two and a half years later in a county-
funded, university-run
teaching hospital. They asked me THREE TIMES, three
different people, three
different shifts. That, frankly, is dangerous in this
country because LOTS
of boys are done without them asking the parents as it
used to be so routine.
I said either to write it big on a chart or get me a
permanent marker so I
could write it on his belly, because the answer was no.
Having moved here from England a few months ago I'd
never heard that circumcision is routine in America.
I've batteld with the INS to let us in vaccinated, I
home-educate following an autonomous approach and am
ready to do battle with the state when they find out.
While I'm ready to take on hospitals too, straight
after a caesareansection I'm not usually at my best.
Is this standard practise in county hospitals? Is there
any thing else I should watch out for when having a
baby in an American hospital?
Sigh.
Shyrley the expat
I don't exercise because it makes the ice jump right out of my
glass.
[email protected]
On 12 Aug 2001, at 22:57, brendaclaspell@... wrote:
To: [email protected]
From: brendaclaspell@...
Date sent: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:57:41 EDT
Send reply to: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Circumcision
In a message dated 8/12/01 2:15:42 PM US Eastern
Standard Time,
shyrley@... writes:
> Having moved here from England a few months ago I'd
> never heard that circumcision is routine in America.
> I've batteld with the INS to let us in unvaccinated,
I
> home-educate following an autonomous approach and am
> ready to do battle with the state when they find out.
>
> While I'm ready to take on hospitals too, straight
> after a caesareansection I'm not usually at my best.
>
> Is this standard practise in county hospitals? Is
there
> any thing else I should watch out for when having a
> baby in an American hospital?
> Sigh.
>
> Shyrley the expat
>
>
i just can't resist here.....there's no chance of an
unwanted circumcision at
a home birth! :-)
Wish I could, but after three C-Sections....
i have heard stories of families heavily persuaded into
choosing to
circumcise-not really knowing their options, but none
in the last few years
that just plain weren't asked.
I repeat the suggestion of the 'birth plan', but also
making sure that
someone else is able to back it up if you may have some
weak times. ha ha.
another option is a doula. they serve many purposes,
one of which can be to
run interference between a birthing mother and hospital
'authority'.
brenda
What's a doula?
Shyrley.
I don't exercise because it makes the ice jump right out of my
glass.