[email protected]

Just a thought after all this talk about vaccinations... I have a friend
whose husband is a chiropractor and none of their children are vaccinated,
have ever seen a doctor (other than him), all homeschooled, home birth, all
natural food... So I ask her one day "so if you are all so natural presumably
you didn't mutilate your son by having him circumcised?" she looked and
looked at me and didn't say anything and then I said "Oh I forget we live in
America where it's a cultural thing to mutilate your boys"...

I wonder how many people who live this "natural life" have done that to their
sons. Being born in England myself there was never any thought of chopping
off parts of my son. I married an American who thought that was going to
happen until I presented him with all the research from both countries,
together with all the photos and he quickly changed his mind.

I asked my husband "why would you want them to be circumcised?" he said "so
they'd look like me". My next question was "so how often and how much do men
look at each other's penis' and compare them?" He laughed and said "not at
all"..."in fact we do everything to avoid eye contact and we certainly don't
chat like women do when they are in the bathroom (I'd let him in on this
secret)"... So next question "if the research proves that it's not necessary
and men don't look at each other, why do a painful procedure that will change
their sexual experience forever?"..... My logic won out, thank goodness.....

When my boys (nearly 6 and nearly 2) recognize they are "different" from
daddy (the older one already has) we explained to him that we choose not to
mutilate him by circumcising him. He just wanted to know what the word
mutilate meant and we had a great discussion about that..

I'm sure this will bring up some controversy as the majority of this list is
American. Anyone British on here will know what I'm talking about.
Justanother unschooling subject.

By the way I didn't want to vaccinate and we were in the air force going
overseas at the time with out first child. I tried to find a way out of it,
but short of staying in America and splitting my family up, there was no way
the air force was going to let us out of this country and into another
without vaccinations.

Now hubby is out of the service I have only done 1 set of shots of my
youngest and my pediatrician says she's not concerned.

Dawn
^^^^^^^^^^^^
Dawn Falbe
Personal Development Coach
Relocational Astrologer
(520) 579-2646
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The Path of Least Resistance is Inside of You
www.astrologerdawn.com
Enlightening women on how to live their Soul Purpose

"The people who get on in this world
are people who get up and look for the
circumstances they want, and,
if they can't find them, make them." - George Bernard Shaw

"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school."-George
Bernard Shaw





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Lynda

Contrary to what one may be led to believe, a lot of Americans don't
circumcise and the number that don't is growing. And in our case, that goes
back to the 70s.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: <NumoAstro@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 6:59 AM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Vaccinations/Circumcision


> Just a thought after all this talk about vaccinations... I have a friend
> whose husband is a chiropractor and none of their children are vaccinated,
> have ever seen a doctor (other than him), all homeschooled, home birth,
all
> natural food... So I ask her one day "so if you are all so natural
presumably
> you didn't mutilate your son by having him circumcised?" she looked and
> looked at me and didn't say anything and then I said "Oh I forget we live
in
> America where it's a cultural thing to mutilate your boys"...
>
> I wonder how many people who live this "natural life" have done that to
their
> sons. Being born in England myself there was never any thought of
chopping
> off parts of my son. I married an American who thought that was going to
> happen until I presented him with all the research from both countries,
> together with all the photos and he quickly changed his mind.
>
> I asked my husband "why would you want them to be circumcised?" he said
"so
> they'd look like me". My next question was "so how often and how much do
men
> look at each other's penis' and compare them?" He laughed and said "not
at
> all"..."in fact we do everything to avoid eye contact and we certainly
don't
> chat like women do when they are in the bathroom (I'd let him in on this
> secret)"... So next question "if the research proves that it's not
necessary
> and men don't look at each other, why do a painful procedure that will
change
> their sexual experience forever?"..... My logic won out, thank
goodness.....
>
> When my boys (nearly 6 and nearly 2) recognize they are "different" from
> daddy (the older one already has) we explained to him that we choose not
to
> mutilate him by circumcising him. He just wanted to know what the word
> mutilate meant and we had a great discussion about that..
>
> I'm sure this will bring up some controversy as the majority of this list
is
> American. Anyone British on here will know what I'm talking about.
> Justanother unschooling subject.
>
> By the way I didn't want to vaccinate and we were in the air force going
> overseas at the time with out first child. I tried to find a way out of
it,
> but short of staying in America and splitting my family up, there was no
way
> the air force was going to let us out of this country and into another
> without vaccinations.
>
> Now hubby is out of the service I have only done 1 set of shots of my
> youngest and my pediatrician says she's not concerned.
>
> Dawn
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Dawn Falbe
> Personal Development Coach
> Relocational Astrologer
> (520) 579-2646
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> The Path of Least Resistance is Inside of You
> www.astrologerdawn.com
> Enlightening women on how to live their Soul Purpose
>
> "The people who get on in this world
> are people who get up and look for the
> circumstances they want, and,
> if they can't find them, make them." - George Bernard Shaw
>
> "The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in
school."-George
> Bernard Shaw
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
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> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Castle Crawford

When my oldest son was born (in Alabama) he was brought to me for the first time with a little roll of gauze and a sheet I had to sign saying I had been 'taught' how to wrap his penis. They circumcised him without even asking me.

When my second son was born (with a midwife) the thought never crossed my mind to have him circumcised. The boys are now 5 and almost 2 (*sniff*) and they run around naked all of the time. Their sister (3) could care less and I have talked to the older one about what happened to his penis and he cried a little. It is a scary thing to think about having happened to you! He agreed it was good we did not do that to Ben.

The only 'problem' I have had so far is my then 7-year-old nephew kept saying that Ben's penis 'was not quite formed'. LOL I told HIM all about what circumcision was (with his mom there). Other than that one remark, no one has questioned our decision.

I have to agree-if you are living your ENTIRE lifestyle so your child has a wholesome, healthy foundation, then WHY do an elective surgery on the day they are born?

E


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Saga

I thought it was about 80% or something in the 70s that circumcised. Now it
is 55% I think? Somewhere around there.
We didn't circumcise. I never even thought about it, it just seemed natural
not to, and why would I do otherwise? Sort of like breastfeeding, it was
just one of those "duh" things. Until people started bringing it up at 9
months pregnant...
but at least I had an easy comeback if I didn't want to hassle with
explanations.
His father isn't circumcised either.

-Kristi

-----Original Message-----
From: Lynda [mailto:lurine@...]
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 10:06 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Vaccinations/Circumcision


Contrary to what one may be led to believe, a lot of Americans don't
circumcise and the number that don't is growing. And in our case, that goes
back to the 70s.

Lynda

[email protected]

I wish we hadn't done the big C.

The ped on call that day didn't even have his own boys done. I just
went with the flow. What a horrible experience it was for all of
us. I missed the baby when they took him from me, so I decided to
pay him a visit during the procedure, you know, make sure he was o.k.
and all. To my surprise, the dr. was standing at his feet with these
two teenage girls on either side of the isolete. I couldn't figure
out what was going on. Then I noticed a photographer in there taking
pictures!!!!! When a nurse walked out I asked her what was going
on. She seemed al little apprehensive and told me that the local
newspaper was doing a piece on the local highschool doing stuff
regarding "career day" or something like that. She knew they had not
got my permission and was concerned about it, but someone else told
her they would get my signature afterwords!! Needless to say, I was
PISSED! I confronted the photographer and he said he took shots that
were focused on the students not the baby and that he wouldn't use
the pictures unless I signed. I should have demanded the film right
then and there, if thinking straight and feeling stronger, I would
have. These students didn't even have masks on!! This is the same
hospital who questioned my husband bringing in our other four kids to
visit! I was ready to take legal action I was sooo upset. After
speaking to my dad who told me it was wrong of them to do that, but
to calm down because it wasn't good for me and just focus on the fact
that I had a beautiful healthy baby and let it go, and I did.

I did call the head of the hospital and they came down right away and
were SO SWEET to me. You know they were quite concerned about a law
suit! They even sent me a bouquet of flowers when I got home.

Laura

frances faber

Dawn,
I don't have any objection to your choice to not have your son circumcised,
but we really didn't have a choice in the matter. It is a Jewish ritual(I
don't consider it mutilation) In Judaism it is done to symbolize basically
signing on the dotted line in each generation to follow the covenant of God.
I guess that the word mutilate, sort of bothered me. This response is not
to start a controversy on the good or bad of either decision, I just wanted
to voice another opinion.
Frances


>From: NumoAstro@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Vaccinations/Circumcision
>Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:59:07 EDT
>
>Just a thought after all this talk about vaccinations... I have a friend
>whose husband is a chiropractor and none of their children are vaccinated,
>have ever seen a doctor (other than him), all homeschooled, home birth, all
>natural food... So I ask her one day "so if you are all so natural
>presumably
>you didn't mutilate your son by having him circumcised?" she looked and
>looked at me and didn't say anything and then I said "Oh I forget we live
>in
>America where it's a cultural thing to mutilate your boys"...
>
>I wonder how many people who live this "natural life" have done that to
>their
>sons. Being born in England myself there was never any thought of chopping
>off parts of my son. I married an American who thought that was going to
>happen until I presented him with all the research from both countries,
>together with all the photos and he quickly changed his mind.
>
>I asked my husband "why would you want them to be circumcised?" he said "so
>they'd look like me". My next question was "so how often and how much do
>men
>look at each other's penis' and compare them?" He laughed and said "not at
>all"..."in fact we do everything to avoid eye contact and we certainly
>don't
>chat like women do when they are in the bathroom (I'd let him in on this
>secret)"... So next question "if the research proves that it's not
>necessary
>and men don't look at each other, why do a painful procedure that will
>change
>their sexual experience forever?"..... My logic won out, thank
>goodness.....
>
>When my boys (nearly 6 and nearly 2) recognize they are "different" from
>daddy (the older one already has) we explained to him that we choose not to
>mutilate him by circumcising him. He just wanted to know what the word
>mutilate meant and we had a great discussion about that..
>
>I'm sure this will bring up some controversy as the majority of this list
>is
>American. Anyone British on here will know what I'm talking about.
>Justanother unschooling subject.
>
>By the way I didn't want to vaccinate and we were in the air force going
>overseas at the time with out first child. I tried to find a way out of
>it,
>but short of staying in America and splitting my family up, there was no
>way
>the air force was going to let us out of this country and into another
>without vaccinations.
>
>Now hubby is out of the service I have only done 1 set of shots of my
>youngest and my pediatrician says she's not concerned.
>
>Dawn
>^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Dawn Falbe
>Personal Development Coach
>Relocational Astrologer
>(520) 579-2646
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>The Path of Least Resistance is Inside of You
>www.astrologerdawn.com
>Enlightening women on how to live their Soul Purpose
>
>"The people who get on in this world
> are people who get up and look for the
> circumstances they want, and,
>if they can't find them, make them." - George Bernard Shaw
>
>"The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in
>school."-George
>Bernard Shaw
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

Tia Leschke

>
> I guess that the word mutilate, sort of bothered me. This response is not
>to start a controversy on the good or bad of either decision, I just wanted
>to voice another opinion.

I thought those comments were a bit harsh myself, and I have two
uncircumcised boys. I would think that talking like that to someone who
had or was planning to circumcise would tend to put them on the defensive,
rather than open them up to your way of thinking.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Elizabeth Sterling Wall

At 03:49 12/08/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> I guess that the word mutilate, sort of bothered me. This response is not
>to start a controversy on the good or bad of either decision, I just wanted
>to voice another opinion.

Hi Frances,

I had been thinking about this, too. It seems I've already stirred up some
controversy, so i didn't want to stick my foot in it again, but as a Jew I
also had a very different view point and approach to circumcision for my
boys. It should be noted, though, that the experience for a Jewish family
is VERY different from that of a non-Jewish family. Many of the things that
people are concerned about and have discussed here are simply not an issue
in a religious "bris". For anyone interested, I'd like to share the
experience. If you aren't interested, now would be a good time to hit the
delete button. :)

Before my youngest son was born, I already knew that he was a boy. That
meant that I had plenty of time to talk to the mohel (man responsible for
the actual circumcision ritual) and the rabbi in our community, as well as
time to pick out the people who would be given the various honors in the
ritual. Many in our community had the mohel go to their house for the bris,
but we opted for the bris to be held in the tiny synagogue, since it was
near our home and also had easier access than our own house for the guests
who would come. The Saturday morning after my son was born, the date and
time of the bris was announced in the synagogue service and anyone in the
community who wished to celebrate with us was invited. On the eighth day
after Andrew's birth, all of the extended family, our closest friends, and
a number of people from our community came to the synagogue for the bris.
Since it was an orthodox community, the area was gender divided, with men
only on the side of the sanctuary where the actual bris was held. Women
were on the other side of a hip-high divide -- most of them around me to
keep my mind off what they were doing on the other side! One man, who would
hold Andrew throughout the ceremony, was sitting up on a sturdy desk that
had been dragged out of the rabbi's study. My mother brought Andrew into
the sanctuary on a special pillow, and handed him to the friend, and then
joined me in the women's section. A few prayers were said. Andrew was given
a sip of kosher wine. And another. (The wine is both a part of many Jewish
rituals and a form of anesthetic in this case.) Some more prayers were
said, my husband was asked what the baby's name would be, a declaration to
all of those gathered was made as to the name of the child and that he was
a Jewish child, entering into the covenant of his father and his father's
fathers. More wine went down the kid's gullet throughout this period as our
friend stuck his finger in a glass of wine and then into Andrew's mouth to
suck. The circumcision was done with great care in more or less the manner
in which little boys have been circumcised for 3000 years in our
communities. Andrew let out one quick yowl,and then went back to sucking
the sweet wine off of our friend's finger. Final blessings were recited.
Then some more wine was drunk, this time by the grown ups. Andrew was given
back to me, thoroughly happy, and a bit sticky with wine.

As you can tell, this is nothing like the experience of a hospital
circumcision. There is much love and care, the baby is definitely
anesthetized, and there is no stage in the process when the baby is not
being held, cuddled, or at the very least touched by loving hands. A
non-Jewish friend of mine who was there commented about how lovely the
ritual had been and how wonderful it must be to have community and
traditions such as these. I fully agree -- if it were not so I would not be
a part of the traditions as an adult.


But if you are not Jewish, are circumcisions necessary? Probably
not. They may be a good idea, though. There is still debate about the
relative benefits and drawbacks. So, for those who feel that they are a
good idea, I would suggest taking a page out of the Jewish ritual... Don't
let your son be circumcised all alone in a hospital. Make sure that at the
very least you are there with him. And if you would consider a birth at
home a good thing, then maybe a circumcision at home is a good thing too.

- elizabeth



"What we need are more people who specialize in the impossible."
-- Theodore Roethke, poet

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/13/01 11:35:06 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
elizabeth@... writes:


> It should be noted, though, that the experience for a Jewish family
> is VERY different from that of a non-Jewish family. Many of the things that
> people are concerned about and have discussed here are simply not an issue
> in a religious "bris".
>

I don't understand this. a penis is a penis and cutting it is cutting it.

> Women
> were on the other side of a hip-high divide -- most of them around me to
> keep my mind off what they were doing on the other side!

this should say something, motherly instinct was strong here.


One man who would
> hold Andrew throughout the ceremony, was sitting up on a sturdy desk that
> had been dragged out of the rabbi's study.


i believe that that soon after a baby's birth, his safest place is with
mommy, especially for anything painful or upsetting.


> Andrew was given
> a sip of kosher wine. And another. (The wine is both a part of many Jewish
> rituals and a form of anesthetic in this case.)

More wine went down the kid's gullet throughout this period as our
>
> friend stuck his finger in a glass of wine and then into Andrew's mouth to
> suck. Andrew let out one quick yowl,and then went back to sucking
> the sweet wine off of our friend's finger.
> Then some more wine was drunk, this time by the grown ups. Andrew was given
> back to me, thoroughly happy, and a bit sticky with wine.


call me crazy, but i'm thinking that introducing alcohol as a baby to numb
pain is a set up for later in life.

>
> As you can tell, this is nothing like the experience of a hospital
> circumcision.


yes it sounds softer on the parents and the child, but a penis is a penis and
cutting it is cutting it.

>
> But if you are not Jewish, are circumcisions necessary? Probably
> not. They may be a good idea, though. There is still debate about the
> relative benefits and drawbacks.

no, they are absolutely not a good idea. the 'debate' is shrinking as more
info becomes available all the time. perhaps if i have a daughter i should
just remove her uterus at birth, since i intend her to be a nun and not have
children anyway.

> And if you would consider a birth at
> home a good thing, then maybe a circumcision at home is a good thing too.
>
> - elizabeth

as a general rule, homebirthing philosophy doesn't merge well with
circumcision.
i also have to say that i don't understand religious circumcision. if you
believe in god and that children are a gift from god, why would you receive
your beautiful new child and say...oops, too much skin on the end of that
penis. sorry god, you messed up, we'll have to cut that off.
or, if it is to commit that child to god, it doesn't really merge well with
the unschooling thread either. why not let the child grow up and decide if he
wants to cut the tip of his penis off in dedication to god?

brenda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/13/01 12:54:23 PM, brendaclaspell@... writes:

<< no, they are absolutely not a good idea. the 'debate' is shrinking as more
info becomes available all the time. perhaps if i have a daughter i should
just remove her uterus at birth, since i intend her to be a nun and not have
children anyway.
>>

Not the same thing.
They didn't take his nuts off.


The parallel which I'm surprised you didn't mention in your long list of
horrors is clitorectomy which is practiced by so many in the MidEast and
Africa. I'd just as soon not talk about it, but as an analogy, you missed
with the uteous comment.

Sandra

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/13/01 2:14:18 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:


> Not the same thing.
> They didn't take his nuts off.
>
>
> The parallel which I'm surprised you didn't mention in your long list of
> horrors is clitorectomy which is practiced by so many in the MidEast and
> Africa. I'd just as soon not talk about it, but as an analogy, you missed
> with the uteous comment.
>

yes, you're right. i thought that after i sent that out. it's not tit for
tat, but it is still dramatically and painfully altering the body of an
infant. one of the reasons usually touted for religious circ is to create a
covenant with god, the only female analogy on that level i could think of was
a celibate nun, and no one would dream of doing that to a young girl.
hysterectomy is a controversial topic lately, with a lot of doctors running
around saying, 'you've had your babies, you don't need it anymore, let's just
take it out'. so it's a bit of a stretch, but in my head the connection is
there.

brenda



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rachel Wolfe Ravenhart

Elizabeth,

Thank you for sharing your story. What a lovely and loving way to go
about the obligation to Deity that your culture has. It sounds as if
your boy is a very fortunate child, to have been given such strong
community so early.


Rachel


Elizabeth Sterling Wall wrote:

> Hi Frances,
>
> I had been thinking about this, too. It seems I've already stirred up
> some
> controversy, so i didn't want to stick my foot in it again, but as a
> Jew I
> also had a very different view point and approach to circumcision for
> my
> boys....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Elizabeth Sterling Wall

At 14:51 13/08/2001 -0400, you wrote:
>call me crazy, but i'm thinking that introducing alcohol as a baby to numb
>pain is a set up for later in life.
I won't call you crazy at all, but this is not the case. In fact,
Jewish families have one of if not *the* lowest rates of alcoholism in the
United States. Most Jewish children (and nearly all orthodox Jewish
children) are given wine throughout their life as part of ritual. Whether
it is at a bris at 8 days old (for a boy) or each Friday night and Saturday
during Sabbath meals and the rituals around them, or during holidays and
festivals (of which there is at least one in 11 out of 12 months of the
year). Our kids grow up around wine -- and other alcohol -- and learn to
treat it with respect.

There is a similarly low level of alcoholism in other cultures
that treat wine, beer, and other alcoholic beverages as either ritual items
or ordinary parts of family dinners. Some people would say that it is
because there is no need to go sneaking alcohol as a teen if you know you
can have it openly. In any case, the attitude to alcohol is different and
so is the result.



>as a general rule, homebirthing philosophy doesn't merge well with
>circumcision.

Well, I have to disagree here, because homebirthing is not a
monolithic and dogmatic movement any more than homeschooling is.

>i also have to say that i don't understand religious circumcision. if you
>believe in god and that children are a gift from god, why would you receive
>your beautiful new child and say...oops, too much skin on the end of that

Well, if you are Jewish or Christian and believe in the Bible as
the word of God, then you only need to look as far as Genesis to see why
Jews should circumcise their sons:
(GEN 17:11) And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it
shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
(GEN 17:12) And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you,
every man child in your generations, he that is born in the
house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of
thy seed.

Of course, if you don't believe in the Bible as the word of God, then there
is really no explanation at all... except that those who do believe what
they will.

>or, if it is to commit that child to god, it doesn't really merge well with
>the unschooling thread either.

Wait a second... that means that if you follow this to its logical
conclusion, you can't teach your children manners or ethics or your own
cosmology of any form unless they specifically ask for it.

- elizabeth


"What we need are more people who specialize in the impossible."
-- Theodore Roethke, poet

Lynda

According to segments of the unschooling community that is correct. They
will learn by example and to teach them is not living the unschooling life.

Lynda
----- Original Message -----
From: Elizabeth Sterling Wall <elizabeth@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2001 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] Vaccinations/Circumcision


>
> Wait a second... that means that if you follow this to its
logical
> conclusion, you can't teach your children manners or ethics or your own
> cosmology of any form unless they specifically ask for it.
>
> - elizabeth

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/13/01 4:21:29 PM, lurine@... writes:

<< According to segments of the unschooling community that is correct. They
will learn by example and to teach them is not living the unschooling life.
>>

Depends on the definition of "teach," which is a pretty broad subject.

I know of no unschooling families in which parents don't discuss what they're
doing and why, what they believe and why, and who don't ask their kids what
they're thinking and doing and why.

If by "to teach" one means half an hour each morning of Bible study with a
test on Friday, I'd think that's not very unschoolerish.

Sandra

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Carrie Troy

<<Thank you for sharing your story. What a lovely and loving way to go
about the obligation to Deity that your culture has. It sounds as if
your boy is a very fortunate child, to have been given such strong
community so early.>>

I agree, I am largely (ha) anti-circ but I DO see a difference in how the
child is treated at a bris vs a medical setting. As strong as I feel
about never having another of my boys circ'd, I still do feel as though
the parent shouldn't be bashed for thier choices, religious or not. As
long as they are well thought out, with all options discussed, they are
doing what is in the best interest of their family. That is the essence
of parenthood! Making choices for your family and raising kids the way
you feel right. Many feel that unschooling is harming a child, ruining
them for the "real world", and are willing to take you to court and
threaten you with jail time for that abuse if you refuse to conform to
"their" rules. But we all know what is best for us, regardless of the
strong opinions of others. And yes, I know that already there are
keyboards clicking away ready to tell me how 'mutilatin' a boy and
unschooling are two totally different things, etc etc, but keep in mind,
everyone has their own ideas on what is extreme/harmful/etc. Everyone
thinks that their cause is the most important. :)
there are two sides to this issue, and most people will never "give" to
the other side, so it's going to be a never ending debate that should
probably go to another location. maybe?
sorry if that annoys people, I usually hate it when people say "stop
discussing X" but this is so highly debatable that I'm guessing there's a
whole 'nother list for that subject alone.


Carrie, mom to
Seth, 11
Austin, 9
Kyson, 4
Aidan, 2.5

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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/13/01 4:08:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time,
elizabeth@... writes:

> >as a general rule, homebirthing philosophy doesn't merge well with
> >circumcision.
>
> Well, I have to disagree here, because homebirthing is not a
> monolithic and dogmatic movement any more than homeschooling is.


i didn't mean to imply that if you homebirth and circ, you're kicked out of
the all natural clinic. i simply meant that most people i've known and talked
to who follow the homebirth path are looking for a natural birth with little
or no intervention. wanting to experience and allow birth for the naturally
beautiful process that it is. more about reclaiming the female body as right
and natural, and the newborn as well. about bringing a baby into the world in
a calm, natural and loving manner. usually this also means not rushing the
child away for shots, cleaning, foot pricks, gook in the eyes, etc. imho
having a circ doesn't go through with this flow. and i've not known many
homebirthers who've opted to circ. i'm not saying they aren't out there, or
that they can't, i've just not known many.


> >or, if it is to commit that child to god, it doesn't really merge well with
> >the unschooling thread either.
>
> Wait a second... that means that if you follow this to its logical
> conclusion, you can't teach your children manners or ethics or your own
> cosmology of any form unless they specifically ask for it.
>

i disagree with the logical conclusion bit. there's a difference between
sharing values and ethics in daily living and cutting off a piece of the body
to form a covenant with god.

i think this is a dead end. this is a religious debate. if someone believes
god is telling them to cut the end of their son's penis off, no human will
probably deter them.
i believe in god, and i want to share my views with my son, but ultimately
his religious path will be his own. i will commit him to nothing, especially
by using a dangerous, harmful and debilitating procedure.
i completely agree that the surroundings at the jewish ceremony sound ten
times better than that of a hospital. but for me it isn't only the one time
event. it's the lasting effects. foreskin serves a purpose, at infancy and
throughout life.

brenda




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Saga

What we are doing, especially since my husband and I differ a little (but
not hugely) in our religious beliefs, is just having our children around
what we are doing, growing up as us as examples, answering questions, etc.
That as well as purposely picking up books and stocking in our house things
that the children may choose to read, and trying to avoid the books that we
don't find appropriate. Though religiously speaking we are VERY open to
learning about other religions (I had a religious studies minor), there are
some other things I don't find appropriate for my home that we don't want
influencing our children (we don't let Julian watch violent cartoons, we
don't let him see daddy's violent games, and in the same way we don't let
him read books that portray different people in bad ways).

We are Pagan. So I have a lot of books about faeries, mythology, we have
coloring books that portray various gods and goddesses, and we celebrate
some Pagan holidays. Spring Equinox we color eggs and have a egg hunt, we
leave an offering for Eostre in the form of an egg that we return to the
earth (we bury it). Beltaine we danced around a May pole. Being only 2 he
doesn't ask too much, but if he asks why a candle is burning, I tell him (at
least when able, if it is a magickal working of some sort you're not
supposed to speak of the magick that is being worked to a certain extent).
I read the stories to him, and at each of the sabbats we change our alter,
which usually corresponds with the seasons, and he helps me scavenge outside
or in craft stores for things that would be appropriate for it.
I don't want him to be pushed into a religion, but I also want our family to
have rituals that we follow to bring our family closer (like how most
families have Christmas or Hannukah, we have Yule). And I want my children
to have a respect for all the religions, and to have good moral judgement
and have at the heart of their being a few basic ... I hate to call them
rules, but I can't think of a better word. There is the threefold law
(everything that you do returns back to your threefold eventually, good or
bad) and Harm None (Wiccan crede basically saying not to do any harm to
anyone, including yourself, always think of the repurcusions before acting).
I don't think are necessarily religious doctrines that my kids must follow,
but just good things to live by to make my children good people.
So, I guess we unschool religious thought, but we do the holidays as a
family, and I hope that they'll receive a good moral foundation from it :)

-Kristi