Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>I know that it may not be a popular stance today, but why are people
having children if they are trying to unload them?� The excuse that the
parent has to work is not a legitimate one-I know people who do have to
support the family and still homeschool.� Sorry, just my 2 cents!

>> I wonder what makes that a consideration for some? I always felt that my
life
>> WAS a mother. I've had a similar discussion with my sis-in-laws and it
>> shocked me that some people feel it's their right to be able to "unload"
>> their children on the schools.

OK, I'll add my .02 cents, since this discussion seems to be getting hot.
While I am very supportive of mothers having careers and being able to work
if they choose, I feel the same as the above statements. Financial needs
are a percieved reason for both parents working. It is not a necessity.
Folks in this country are so brainwashed by the media and the consumer
culture that they think they "need" much more than they really do. It is a
lifestyle "choice" which many claim to be unable to change.

We do not "NEED" to buy clothes new in retail outlets, with so many options
for second hand goods and wholesale or wharehouse shopping. That is a
choice. We do not "NEED" to eat meat every day or other expensive foods,
nor buy convenience foods. That is a choice. We do not "NEED" to have a
buying orgy for gift giving during the holiday season. That is a choice.
We do not "NEED" to purchase gifts based on TV shows or movies for our
children, buy video games, computer programs, or computers for that matter.
We do not need cable, VCRs or even TVs. Those are ALL lifestyle choices.

The quality of your life does not have anything to do with how much money
you make. But your luxury level DOES have to do with money, and Wants and
Needs are two very different things. The choice of how to parent, whether
one chooses homeschooling and Stay at Home, Institutionalized Schooling and
Working, or some other combination of these and other factors, is a luxury
that we have as citizens in a modern and wealthy nation. The cop-out of
saying that one has "no choice" when that is probably not the case, is
often done unconciously. People (whom I think of as "Sleepwalkers," going
through the motions of life and are not really growing or thinking deeply,)
often do not see their choices for what they are, or do not see that they
even HAVE choices until they really WAKE UP and start thinking in new ways.
These people are not READY to do it any other way, and it has to happen
for them in their own time, sometimes not at all.

I made a choice when I became a mother (and long before that) to stay home
with my children. My choice must then be supported by and reflected in the
other choices I make for my life. Where to work and what to do (work at
home could have been an option had I been a single mother,) What I do with
my children, etc, are choices too. I choose to be a very active in my
children's upbringing and I do not want to send them off to be raised by
someone(S) else I hardly know, if at all, for most of their waking hours.
That is MY choice and what works for me. But that does not mean that I do
not respect and accept the choices of others, and try not to be
judgemental. Everyone is at a different place in this life, and most
people move up and down the path, and diverge onto those less beaten tracks
as well, throughout their lifetimes.

Nanci K. in Idaho

[email protected]

Nanci, an everyone else,

I wanted to say that I really liked what you said about it being a cop out
when people say they dont have a choice, they have to work. I hate this too,
because we make daily sacrifices to homeschool, and to be with our kids full
time. I wish people took more responsibilities for thoier choices.

However, I dont think its fair to say that these people work to pay for more
expensive cars or groceries, or whatever. I work part time at night when my
husband is with the kids, because we couldn't make the bills otherwise. We
dont have cable, we get the internet free, we dont have a/c, we dont eat meat
at all, all our clothes are hand me downs, we do our own car repairs, we
stopped drinking soda, we recieve financial aid for college, etc. It isnt a
matter of giving up luxuries, because the only one left to give up is staying
home with the kids, and we wont give that one up.

I dont mean to offend anyone at all by this-- I just mean to say that we
should all be supportive of one another-- just like us at home moms hate when
the stereotypes of us are passed around (bon bons and the soap operas, right?
LOL) I wouldnt want to pass on the stereotype that parents who work outside
the home do it for more luxuries. I know sometimes its hard to believe that
people cant live on one income, but its true in some cases. My ideal
situation would be that we both would work part time! Maybe someday :)

Rachael

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>However, I dont think its fair to say that these people work to pay for more
>expensive cars or groceries, or whatever.
>
>I dont mean to offend anyone at all by this-- I just mean to say that we
>should all be supportive of one another--
>Rachael


You are right, of course, and I hope "I" did not offend anyone. I know
from firsthand experience and from close family members experiences what it
is like to struggle to get your basic needs met in this economy, and I get
irritated myself when someone online implies that something like a few
thousand dollars (or more) is "No big deal" and easy for anyone to come up
with. In the process of our adoption research I have run across many folks
who think this way, and are obviously coming from a much more privileged
lifestyle than we are.

I still do believe that many people who think that they have no choice,
really do. They just cannot differentiate between their needs and their
wants enough to be able to cut some of the superfluous. My SIL would LOVE
to stay home with her girls, but they just cannot afford to right now, and
THAT IS the truth, much like your situation. But that is not always the
case for folks who claim that they HAVE to work.

Nanci K. in Idaho

Lisa Fuller

I have to jump in here with another perspective. I choose to work outside the
home, first off because I love what I do (I teach child development at the
community college). It affords me a flexible schedule, only 3 mornings a week and
7 Saturdays (at least for this 18 week semester, my schedule changes every few
months), with lots of time off. Second, my dh is a much better housekeeper than I
am:) He is in school full-time and we often do tag team parenting, but he does
most of the child care and housework and cooking. My dh will never have a
fulltime job, he doesn't want one and he is not a good employee (ah, authority;),
I knew that when I married him. I am the one with the ambitions and the ability
to make money.

I have just read the Teenage Liberation Handbook by Grace Lewellyn (sp?),
eventhough we don't have teenagers (my kids are 26 mos and 5 mos). I have to say
it was liberating for me and my schooled mind. The first section in her book
directly addresses this line of discussion and makes so much sense. I recommend
everyone read this book, for yourself and your journey whether or not you have
teenagers. I wish I had read it 15 years ago!

Not being able to differentiate between needs and wants is only a small part of
the issue. Realizing that you actually have a choice is the biggest hurdle. We
have friends who really believe they do not have a choice in their jobs. They
have gone to school for a certain reason and therefore they must not waste their
education. They have been taught that work is the only thing that shows success.
Identity is wrapped up in work and profession, which is reflected in your house,
car, tv, and even your therapist:) Schooling has closed people's minds to options
and choice. Grace L. demonstrates it so well in her Teenage Liberation Handbook!

Lisa F.

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall wrote:

> From: Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall <tn-k4of5@...>
>
> >However, I dont think its fair to say that these people work to pay for more
> >expensive cars or groceries, or whatever.
> >
> >I dont mean to offend anyone at all by this-- I just mean to say that we
> >should all be supportive of one another--
> >Rachael
>
> You are right, of course, and I hope "I" did not offend anyone. I know
> from firsthand experience and from close family members experiences what it
> is like to struggle to get your basic needs met in this economy, and I get
> irritated myself when someone online implies that something like a few
> thousand dollars (or more) is "No big deal" and easy for anyone to come up
> with. In the process of our adoption research I have run across many folks
> who think this way, and are obviously coming from a much more privileged
> lifestyle than we are.
>
> I still do believe that many people who think that they have no choice,
> really do. They just cannot differentiate between their needs and their
> wants enough to be able to cut some of the superfluous. My SIL would LOVE
> to stay home with her girls, but they just cannot afford to right now, and
> THAT IS the truth, much like your situation. But that is not always the
> case for folks who claim that they HAVE to work.
>
> Nanci K. in Idaho
>
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[email protected]

In a message dated 8/25/99 12:37:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Roop0625@... writes:

> However, I dont think its fair to say that these people work to pay for
more
> expensive cars or groceries, or whatever. I work part time at night when
my
>
> husband is with the kids, because we couldn't make the bills otherwise.

Rachael,

I agree. In our case, we're fortunate enough that I'll be able to work at
home or I could quit altogether and we could still make it. But I know I'm
lucky. Also, I feel the need to point out that some people actually enjoy
their careers. There are women who are doctors, lawyers, professors,
artists, etc. who do make a lot of money and whose "extra" income is not
needed for the household, but who worked hard to establish their careers and
are very fulfilled by them. I'm not saying that sacrifices shouldn't be made
when one becomes a parent, but I think to lump all working mothers into the
same "they're working to own three tvs and two DVD players" basket is unfair.
I'm not particularly wild about my job so it's not a big sacrifice for me to
give it up. But if I were directing movies it would be a different story.

Elizabeth

[email protected]

In a message dated 8/25/99 2:27:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time, eifuller@...
writes:

> Not being able to differentiate between needs and wants is only a small
part
> of
> the issue. Realizing that you actually have a choice is the biggest
hurdle.
> We
> have friends who really believe they do not have a choice in their jobs.
> They
> have gone to school for a certain reason and therefore they must not waste
> their
> education. They have been taught that work is the only thing that shows
> success.
> Identity is wrapped up in work and profession, which is reflected in your
> house,
> car, tv, and even your therapist:) Schooling has closed people's minds to
> options
> and choice. Grace L. demonstrates it so well in her Teenage Liberation
> Handbook!
>
Lisa,

Yes! This is largely what I've been trying to say. I think choice is key
(again, that's one reason I like unschooling). That's also why I reject the
idea of men's and women's "roles" in family or society. Assigning positions
like this limits or eliminates choice. I had been thinking about reading
this book but figured I'd wait because I didn't think it would apply to me
yet. However, it looks like it could be quite inspiring.

Elizabeth

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall

>I have to jump in here with another perspective. I choose to work outside the
>home, first off because I love what I do
>Lisa F.


>> I still do believe that many people who think that they have no choice,
>> really do. They just cannot differentiate between their needs and their
>> wants enough to be able to cut some of the superfluous.
>> Nanci K. in Idaho


Maybe I was not being clear here, but I was not talking specifically about
WOMEN, or about the working moms versus SAHMs issue. I was referring to
ALL people who are limiting their lives and not enjoying themselves through
ways of thinking that lead to things like thinking that they "HAVE" to
work, when the reality is otherwise. It is also true that someone's
standard of living and their degree of "enlightenment" if you will, is a
determining factor in what they "Need" to be happy, or what they think that
they need. I DO NOT think that we were better off before sufferage and
women's rights, when were little better than chattle, could not vote, were
the property of our male relatives, did not have choices, etc, etc.

If a career is your drive and your desire, then that is what you should be
doing. If it is not, you should not feel that you are forced into it when
you have options (and I know some people DO NOT have options, and that is
something else alltogether.) I certainly am not in the battlefield over
gender roles, women's "proper" place, or working mothers vs. SAHM. I see
no conflict of interest or values here, just differing lifestyles. I have
a sister who is a Dr., one who is an Engineer at NASA managing part of
international space station design, one who is a paralegal, and another who
is an environmental engineer. The three who have children are all
wonderful, active, full time mothers. Even though they have very busy full
time careers outside of the house. I always thought that my youngest
sister (the one who works at Nasa) was the most awesome mother and I
admired her parenting style.

I think I was taken as being on one side or another of this issue, when
really what I was adressing was an issue that transcends gender and talks
about people limiting themselves unnecessarily.

Nanci K. in Idaho

Joseph A. & Susan D. Fuerst

Lisa,
I ceratainly agree! I continue to struggle with the message I in my
schooling that I should be able to "do it all".....have a career and a
family.
People say it's a 'waste' to 'not be using' my college education, etc.
I have to seriously consider what message I'm sending my daughters and what
message I HOPE they receive from me in this area.
Susan
With boggled mind - so many serious discussions going on here!

->Not being able to differentiate between needs and wants is only a small
part of
>the issue. Realizing that you actually have a choice is the biggest hurdle.
We
>have friends who really believe they do not have a choice in their jobs.
They
>have gone to school for a certain reason and therefore they must not waste
their
>education. They have been taught that work is the only thing that shows
success.
>Identity is wrapped up in work and profession, which is reflected in your
house,
>car, tv, and even your therapist:) Schooling has closed people's minds to
options
>and choice. Lisa F.
>

Lisa Fuller

I did not think you were on a 'side', just wanted to share my experience. I am
enjoying the discussion and wanted to help illustrate the diversity of family
choices:)

Enjoy,

Lisa F.

Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall wrote:

> From: Thomas and Nanci Kuykendall <tn-k4of5@...>
>
> >I have to jump in here with another perspective. I choose to work outside the
> >home, first off because I love what I do
> >Lisa F.
>
> >> I still do believe that many people who think that they have no choice,
> >> really do. They just cannot differentiate between their needs and their
> >> wants enough to be able to cut some of the superfluous.
> >> Nanci K. in Idaho
>
> Maybe I was not being clear here, but I was not talking specifically about
> WOMEN, or about the working moms versus SAHMs issue. I was referring to
> ALL people who are limiting their lives and not enjoying themselves through
> ways of thinking that lead to things like thinking that they "HAVE" to
> work, when the reality is otherwise. It is also true that someone's
> standard of living and their degree of "enlightenment" if you will, is a
> determining factor in what they "Need" to be happy, or what they think that
> they need. I DO NOT think that we were better off before sufferage and
> women's rights, when were little better than chattle, could not vote, were
> the property of our male relatives, did not have choices, etc, etc.
>
> If a career is your drive and your desire, then that is what you should be
> doing. If it is not, you should not feel that you are forced into it when
> you have options (and I know some people DO NOT have options, and that is
> something else alltogether.) I certainly am not in the battlefield over
> gender roles, women's "proper" place, or working mothers vs. SAHM. I see
> no conflict of interest or values here, just differing lifestyles. I have
> a sister who is a Dr., one who is an Engineer at NASA managing part of
> international space station design, one who is a paralegal, and another who
> is an environmental engineer. The three who have children are all
> wonderful, active, full time mothers. Even though they have very busy full
> time careers outside of the house. I always thought that my youngest
> sister (the one who works at Nasa) was the most awesome mother and I
> admired her parenting style.
>
> I think I was taken as being on one side or another of this issue, when
> really what I was adressing was an issue that transcends gender and talks
> about people limiting themselves unnecessarily.
>
> Nanci K. in Idaho
>
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>
> ONElist: home to the world's liveliest email communities.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Check it out!
> http://www.unschooling.com

[email protected]

In a message dated 99-08-26 00:58:17 EDT, you write:

<<
> >I have to jump in here with another perspective. I choose to work outside
the
> >home, first off because I love what I do
> >Lisa F.
> >>
What do you teach, btw? Just wondering! :) Sounds like you find it
fascinating. r

rachael

Lisa Fuller

I do find it fascinating! I teach human development, child development, early
childhood education, school-age care, etc. at the community college level:) It is
fascinating. I've taught at every level possible from infant through adulthood so
I have a lot of experience (which is probably why I'm unschooling:). I like the
freedom I'm afforded at the community college level. I assess the students the
way I want to, which means no in class tests, multiple choice type things. I try
to "teach" in a way that the students are not actually "learning" from me, they
are just using new vocabulary words to describe their experiences. My whole point
in teaching is to help students to become aware of the theories they have already
developed about how children grow and learn. I love to read my students reactions
and hear their empowering experiences. With every class I learn so much about my
own beliefs and theories. The more I learn about unschooling, too, the more I
'let go' in the classroom and let the students lead discussions and teach the
class. I'm rejuvenated every time I step into the classroom.

Thanks for asking, I love to talk about my teaching experiences and how I'm
changing every day as a teacher and as a learner:)

Enjoy,

Lisa F.

Roop0625@... wrote:

> From: Roop0625@...
>
> In a message dated 99-08-26 00:58:17 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
> > >I have to jump in here with another perspective. I choose to work outside
> the
> > >home, first off because I love what I do
> > >Lisa F.
> > >>
> What do you teach, btw? Just wondering! :) Sounds like you find it
> fascinating. r
>
> rachael
>
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Mary E Gates

>>People say it's a 'waste' to 'not be using' my college education,>>

Isn't that lame? As if one needn't bother with an education if they will
"ONLY" be raising children! Then why do teachers need a college degree?
Another case of twisted logic, methinks.
Besides, many degrees serve only to create elitist fields of employment.
There was very little I learned in college that I couldn't have learned
without a teacher. And those few things could have been learned with a
mentor, or as an apprentice. I'm the only one of my siblings with a
college degree -- when I had a full-time job I earned much LESS than they
did!

>> I try to "teach" in a way that the students are not actually
"learning" from me, they are just using new vocabulary words to describe
their experiences. >>

We need more "teaching" like that in the system. Keep it up!

Mary Ellen
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow.

Julie Stauffer

<<He often doesn't "get it" until he experiences consequences that are
painful to him>>

I do think it is often personality. My son also must experience
consequences to learn very often. Example: We have been bothered lately by
Zach's procrastination in getting ready to go places, all places including
places he really enjoys. Even with fair warning that we are going some
place later in the day and later that we are leaving in so many minutes, he
doesn't even attempt to find his shoes, go to the bathroom or whatever until
everyone else is getting in the van. Then the entire family is supposed to
wait for him to change clothes, etc.. We have waited on him many, many times
and the family is tired of it. We talked about it. He agrees it is a
problem and I said I would continue to let him know the plan and a warning
of when we are to be leaving but I will no longer cause the rest of us to be
late because he dawdles. He agreed......but then just this morning I had to
drive off and leave him. He was furious for about 10 minutes.

This is an ongoing thing with Zach. He is very experiential and just
talking about possible consequences, how he would feel if such and such
happens, etc., doesn't do it for him. I try as much as possible to make
sure that the consequences are natural. If he has to learn the hard way, I
don't want to be the bad guy all the time.

Julie

Kolleen

>This is an ongoing thing with Zach. He is very experiential and just
>talking about possible consequences, how he would feel if such and such
>happens, etc., doesn't do it for him. I try as much as possible to make
>sure that the consequences are natural. If he has to learn the hard way, I
>don't want to be the bad guy all the time.
>Julie


After all your efforts to talk about consequences, and the entire
family's patience in waiting for him over and over, I think your choice
to drive away was well overdue!

I hope you continue to do this so the entire family doesn't have to
suffer one person's consequences.

There are no bad guys in this situation. Just a family trying to make
things work so everyone can get on with their life. So taking that label
upon yourself is your choice.

I have a nephew who is the same way. My sister resorted to bribery (PS2)
and that only worked for a week. Extrinsic rewards are not my idea of
learning. So when I spent a considerable amount of time staying at their
house, we went on with family matters. Of course it wasn't done with
malice or coldness, or without patience after a few discussions.

Now he either gets it together or he gets left behind and he waits until
someone is home to drive him where he needs to be. He knows its his own
doing and he accepts it.

In our house we have a law about infringing on other people's rights to
have their freedom. Its the only way everyone can enjoy freedoms from
control and agendas.

kolleen