Tammy Graves

Ouch... my toes. I'm ok though now.
fyi - I have not taken my dd's out of ps yet. I am using this post site as a
place to learn about the best ways to go about it and to really understand what
it is to unschool. I have to still convince my dh of this as ps is still very
much a part of him and is hard to break him of (still cannot understand why,
when both he and I hated it so much). There are a few things we must get in
control of and feel comfortable with before we can take the full plunge. I have
begun attending the hs group that meets sort of near by monthly as well. I would
hope that I can still voice my opinions and questions to this group even though
I have not pulled them out yet.

I can understand Nicki's pain. Understand too that a 6 yo will change their
minds quite often and what they like now, they may not tomorrow and visa versa.

[email protected]

Nikki,

You have to make the decision to homeschool or public school.
Everyone on this list "made" the decision to unschool, homeschool,
private/public school their children. What you can do is let him
help you pick his curriculum. But at six years old, you as the adult
should be making the schooling decision. If he likes to play soccer,
sign him up for a soccer league. Maybe the homeschool group has a
team. Take him to homeschool functions. He will make friends very
easy. He is very young. That is my opinion. I probably stepped on
a toe or two and I apologize in advance.

Molly

Tracy Oldfield

Nikki,

You have to make the decision to homeschool or public
school. 
Everyone on this list "made" the decision to unschool,
homeschool, 
private/public school their children. What you can do
is let him 
help you pick his curriculum. But at six years old,
you as the adult 
should be making the schooling decision. If he likes
to play soccer, 
sign him up for a soccer league. Maybe the homeschool
group has a 
team. Take him to homeschool functions. He will make
friends very 
easy. He is very young. That is my opinion. I
probably stepped on 
a toe or two and I apologize in advance. 

Molly


I disagree (but my toes are fine, thanks! LOL)
Unschooling is about children taking their own
decisions, and being supported by their parents. We
make the decision to support this, but that's as far as
it goes. YMobviouslyV!! If he wants to go to school,
that's up to him. What he gets from it will vary
depending on the attitude of everyone around him, which
is why I said that I thought facing the teacher down
with him present would be a useful experience *grin*
Now one of mine said on the way to the home-ed fes we
were camping at that they wanted to go to school so we
shouldn't be going, but it hasn't been mentioned
since... Don't know what exactly I'd do about it if
she did decide to go, but that's not the point, it's
like Sandra said, it's about personal power, choice,
freedom.

My 2p worth
Tracy

Nicki Clark

<<facing the teacher down
with him present would be a useful experience >>

Well, I would NEVER do this. It is a great and valid suggestion so I truly
appreciate it. But our past history has taught me to be EXTREMELY cautious
at what I choose to expose my child/ren to under the premise that they will
learn something valuable. Unless I am very very sure that the outcome will
be to my liking (i.e the teacher will admit that what rules we have at our
house can not be dictated by her, that it's wrong, that she's sorry she
underestimated my child, etcetc), my experience is these types of situations
do more harm than good. Or at very least that the harm that can be done is
way too damaging to risk it.

Case in point - two years ago after I separated from my ex and he was living
with his parents and watching my children during the day my kids' paternal
grandfather decided to get physically abusive on me. He did this in front of
my children. I was really shocked but not terribly hurt. I weighed my
options and decided that because my children SAW what happened I needed to
be proactive and take them with me to file a report against this man.
Previous years experience taught me (unfortunately) that assault and battery
was pretty easy to file - especially being a woman, a mother, and having
witnesses. I felt like it would be wise to show my children that at no costs
is it appropriate to tolerate physical abuse, that the police are there to
help keep us safe and protect us from people who try to harm us. I took them
because I felt it was important for them to see me being proactive about
this situation. In the end, the police LAUGHED me out of the station,
literally telling me that they had "real" crime to fight and that I couldn't
be a "nutsy woman" and expect them to do ANYTHING about this situation. They
said all of this in front of my children. I even said to them that I'd hoped
they'd be more responsive to the situation, if only for my children's
benefit and they told me something about my children learning early that
there is real crime and then there are family squabbles. Oh - not to mention
that I was totally berated for breastfeeding my toddler there. Doesn't
matter that the law is on my side when I'm IN the police station.

I can not tell you how much this experience has tainted my belief that we
should drag our kids through these situations with us. I am way way way too
fearful that this teacher would accuse my child of being delayed, behind, a
poor reader, a poor student and accuse me and homeschooling of making that
happen. It has happened in the past and that is NOT something I want my
child to hear from the person he already listens to more than his own
mother! It would accomplish exactly the opposite and further alienate
himself from me and homeschooling as a concept.

Nicki

Tracy Oldfield

<<facing the teacher down
with him present would be a useful experience >>

Well, I would NEVER do this. It is a great and valid
suggestion so I truly
appreciate it. But our past history has taught me to be
EXTREMELY cautious
at what I choose to expose my child/ren to under the
premise that they will
learn something valuable. Unless I am very very sure
that the outcome will
be to my liking (i.e the teacher will admit that what
rules we have at our
house can not be dictated by her, that it's wrong, that
she's sorry she
underestimated my child, etcetc), my experience is
these types of situations
do more harm than good. Or at very least that the harm
that can be done is
way too damaging to risk it.


OK, I get your point, it's not possible to know what
the outcome of this would be, but I still think that
having his mother spell out to said teacher why it's
important for your son to learn in his own sweet way
would get the message across to him more than telling
him directly, and the fact that you're willing to take
such a stand for him would be impressive. But this is
my thoughts on it, so what you do is up to you.

That's a scary story, btw. On the other hand, my
brother told me this story about my mum, who usually
doesn't say boo to a goose and could have 'anything for
an easy life' tattoed on her face, she says it so
often. Db has something about his teeth that cause
them to fur up when he drinks milk. One day he was
going to the dentist (he was about 8yo I think) and the
dentist started having a go at him for not brushing.
Mum stood up, for once, and told the guy that he had
brushed his teeth, she'd watched him do it, and if he
was going to call them liars she'd go somewhere else.
Mum doesn't think she can stand up to authority
figures, but she can and I've told her so (from this
and other things) so don't underestimate the power of a
child's memory! You can use the situation to your
advantage, don't let it get confrontational, just say
your piece and leave. Don't let 'em grind you down!

I wonder what your children really think about that
episode...

Tracy

Nicki Clark

<<I wonder what your children really think about that
episode...>>

Ugh Tracy, I am way too afraid to ask. Maybe in a few years.

This was the same day said grandfather kicked his son and my children out
of their house and onto the street with no car, no money and no where to go.
I finally got a collect call at work at the end of my work day - they'd
spent all day on the streets. Oh - and they were escorted away by the
police. This was a big reason I wanted my children to witness me being
proactive with the police. They had just been forced to leave their father's
home by police escorts who KNEW they'd be homeless and transportationless
and did not even offer my ex a chance to call me or make arrangements
otherwise. My kids were 18 months and 4.5 at the time. My kids have
witnessed way too much and been through way too much. I don't *think* they
sense my feelings about this because most of my decisions are based on these
reasons on more of a subconscious level. It's only when I start thinking and
writing about it that I realize how much of our past affects my parenting
decisions now and it makes more sense (if only to me! <grin>) why I have
made the decisions that I have and why I'm so on the fence about things. I
used to have such conviction and now I've seen the hurt that my convictions
have cast on my children and it's made me very cautious. I'm FINALLY
starting to see the hurt that being so cautious has created (small stuff
compared to the rest but even small stuff is significant). And I'm just
trying to wade through and find a middle ground. Cautiously optimistic, I
think it's called :)

I really do try to stand up for them. In other realms this comes naturally.
It USED to come naturally in his classroom as well. I hope I am not coming
across as one of those pushover inactive parents. I guess I have finally
given up. I spent the better part of the school year making daily
appearances, phone calls, letters ....all with gently-worded clarifications
about my expectations, concerns, etc. I KNOW all the little tricks to being
assertive and making myself clear as day. I've done it a million times
before in other situations. I've counseled other Mothers on being assertive
with their families and doctors. It is second-nature to me. But I was
constantly belittled, pacified, etc. by this teacher. I always left more
angry than I did when I came in. The VERY first day of school there was a
bullying incident and I jumped on it right away and was literally told by
this teacher that my child was perhaps reacting to how different he felt
because of his age (he was only 5 when he started first grade). That she was
not present during the episode but it seemed to stem from my own child's
frustration at not being able to keep up with the other kids - not actual
bullying from other kids. No attempts by me to firmly clarify that my child
relayed incidences of name-calling, restricted access on the playground, etc
made this woman reconsider her own stand. She'd drawn a conclusion and stuck
to it. She does not want to hear what I have to say. From the start her
reaction to confrontation has been to clearly repeat her own stand until I
back down or give up. She simply does not want to hear what I have to say.
MANY times my son has been present during these conversations and I have
always tried to leave before it is too obvious that this woman cares nothing
for what I have to say. Finally I've given up. Maybe that makes me a weak
mother or just plain a failure. Maybe I am dismissing an opportunity to
possibly create a strong memory for him to take into adulthood. But I'm
tired and I hate the system and I could care less what all the other
children learn or don't learn from this woman anymore. All I care about is
MY child and my rally for change has to start at home. At least for this
issue.

Nicki

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/29/01 5:03:49 PM, tgraves@... writes:

<< I have to still convince my dh of this as ps is still very
much a part of him and is hard to break him of (still cannot understand why,
when both he and I hated it so much). >>

When something's painful and we had no choice sometimes we justify why it was
important and good for us. And we cling to those justifications, because
otherwise we might get really angry at our parents or whoever did that to us,
or inflicted the thing on us, or made us continue.

(Seems to me, anyway, that people can justify their own or others' drinking;
being hit and yelled at; being left alone too much; having been given yucky
medicine or made to go to bed when they weren't sleepy or much, much worse.)

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/29/01 7:00:27 PM, nicki@... writes:

<< She simply does not want to hear what I have to say.
MANY times my son has been present during these conversations and I have
always tried to leave before it is too obvious that this woman cares nothing
for what I have to say. Finally I've given up. Maybe that makes me a weak
mother or just plain a failure. >>

It might make you feel better to write a letter to that teacher with a copy
to the principal. Summarize, starting with that first incident. Tell how it
made you feel to be dismissed. Try to keep the whole thing to one page. We
could help you edit it.

It will make a difference in her treatment of others in the future. And it
will be an official "mark" on her at the school that you cared enough to
document your unhappiness, and that you took your child out.

The teacher probably wouldn't respond, for legal reasons if nothing else.
Maybe the principal would write a soothing something.

Sandra

Nicki Clark

<<It might make you feel better to write a letter to that teacher with a
copy
to the principal. >>

This is a GREAT idea! I think I will do it - even if I don't end up sending
it.

I wonder what the legal disadvantages are with putting in writing that I
plan to homeschool. I chose not to send back my "letter of intent" last
month that was sent out to all parents. I just really do not want to be
"listed" unless/until I absolutely have to. So my only reservation about
sending a letter is that it would be forwarded to the school board as legal
proof of my intent. Maybe it's worth it and my fears are unjustified? I
don't know, it makes me a little nervous.

This teacher has just accepted another teaching position within the district
at another Elem. school so I'm not sure my copying others of importance
would have any bearing. My reason for including others would mostly be to
explain my choices and the effect of this behavior on some parents.
Ultimately, though, none of this is my true reason for homeschooling. I'm
homeschooling because I CAN. These things just further my resolution that it
is in my child's best interest.

Nicki

[email protected]

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., "Tracy Oldfield"
<tracy.oldfield@n...> wrote:
> I disagree (but my toes are fine, thanks! LOL)
> Unschooling is about children taking their own
> decisions, and being supported by their parents. We
> make the decision to support this, but that's as far as
> it goes. YMobviouslyV!! If he wants to go to school,
> that's up to him.


Hmmmm, I've been thinking on this one and I have to say for me and my
family I disagree with this. Unschooling is a life choice that my DH
and I have made for our family. Right now, at the ripe old age of
almost 5, my son doesn't have the decision to go to school placed in
his hands. If he did, it's possible that he might want to do it. Half
of his friends are going to go to kindergarten next year, the whole
culture supports, promotes, and expects it, it seems thrilling and
exciting to ride a big yellow bus and go sit with his friends.
Unfortunately, I think it would also be emotionally and mentally
damaging and so it's not an option we're giving him. I also wouldn't
let him walk into the middle of a busy highway to retrieve a quarter.
Honestly, that's sort of what it feels like to me - he'd be reaching
for something small and shiny (the "good" experiences of school), and
get hit by a bus (the rest of the crap that comes with it).
Additionally, we'd have to go through registering him with the system
(bleh), doing the whole immunization crap (double bleh) or filing a
religious exemption, exposing our whole family to the system. That's
not something we're going to be doing.

Others may disagree, but I see Unschooling as a family decision and
one that (right now) my husband and I are making. As the kids get
older and have a bit more life experience and resilience to what
others have to say, they'll have the option to go to school. But at
this magical age of taking in the world, they don't. I also don't put
my son in daycare just because when we drive by a daycare center with
a pretty play structure he asks to go, FWIW.


Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "A bee is pollinating my eye"
and Asa (10/5/99) "Asa eat buggy"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/30/01 6:56:15 AM, nicki@... writes:

<< I wonder what the legal disadvantages are with putting in writing that I
plan to homeschool. I chose not to send back my "letter of intent" last
month that was sent out to all parents. >>

You could just say "My child will not be returning to your school."

<<So my only reservation about
sending a letter is that it would be forwarded to the school board as legal
proof of my intent.>>

OH no it wouldn't. It would be put in a filing cabinet and hidden because
both the teacher and principal could be in trouble if the school board
thought they were wrong. School boards are the boss.

But if the principal had other complaints on that teacher and he/she chose to
send the letter on with a complaint, the board wouldn't see it as a letter of
intent or a letter about you or your child, but as a letter of complaint
against someone they hired and were paying.

<<This teacher has just accepted another teaching position within the district
at another Elem. school so I'm not sure my copying others of importance
would have any bearing.>>

WHY is she leaving? Were they unhappy with her? Or is it just closer to her
house, or she wasn't getting along with co-workers or what? (Just curious,
or wanting you to consider...

If it's the same district, it's the same school board. Send a copy to the
new school's principal too, if you want want! GO for it. You should get
some satisfaction out of the deal.

-=-Ultimately, though, none of this is my true reason for homeschooling. I'm
homeschooling because I CAN. These things just further my resolution that it
is in my child's best interest.-=-

Even if it just caused you to take your child to another school or private
school, they still need to know you were dissatisfied.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/30/2001 10:02:21 AM Central Daylight Time,
diamondair@... writes:

<< I've been thinking on this one and I have to say for me and my
family I disagree with this. Unschooling is a life choice that my DH
and I have made for our family. Right now, at the ripe old age of
almost 5, my son doesn't have the decision to go to school placed in
his hands. >>

I totally agree with your entire post. We did the same thing when our oldest
was younger. (She is 17 now) We did not give her the option when she turned 5
to go to school. Your posts reflect the way I felt at the time perfectly.
When my oldest turned 8 she said she wanted to go to school. She was
determined. Later she told me that her Aunt, who was in high school at the
time, told her she was missing tons of fun and of course all her friends were
there. We still did not let her go. Instead we let her join a karate club,
and she was also in dance and gymnastics. We pointed out to her that she
would not be able to do those extra activities if she was in school because
there would not be enough time. ( this was true as all activities were out of
town) She decided the activities were worth missing school for. Now that she
is 17 she says that she is glad that we never sent her to school and she can
talk to her friends and see how much they dislike it. She is glad that we did
not give in to her request but stood by our beliefs that public school is not
an option for us.
Our other three children never wanted to go to school.

Candy

Tracy Oldfield

I always left more
angry than I did when I came in.

I can relate to this, I go through phases of feeling
this way with my mum sometimes! You have tried,
obviously, and reached the limit of your resources with
this woman. I guess I'd be saying to my son (on a good
day, this is!! *grin*) 'I don't like it, I don't like
the way this teacher behaves, but I'm too tired of
fighting her attitudes to go any further with this. If
you want to do 'x' at home, that's fine by me, and what
you want is much more important to me than anything
this teacher wants.' But that would be on a good day...

I think you're doing the best you can, and that's all
any of us can do. I'm sorry if this thread has brought
up painful memories for you, though sometimes they can
help in clarifying why we behave the way we do now, as
you say. You're certainly not a failure!

Did you mention that she won't be teaching your son
next year? Take the summer off, then if your son still
wants to be in school, see what the new teacher's like,
and use all those skills you have in store 'from
scratch.' I agree with Sandra that it's not likely to
be beneficial if you're fighting about home-ed to start
with...

How much longer do you have to put up with this woman?

Tracy

Tracy Oldfield

I totally agree with your entire post. We did the same
thing when our oldest 
was younger. (She is 17 now) We did not give her the
option when she turned 5 
to go to school. Your posts reflect the way I felt at
the time perfectly. 
When my oldest turned 8 she said she wanted to go to
school. She was 
determined. Later she told me that her Aunt, who was in
high school at the 
time, told her she was missing tons of fun and of
course all her friends were 
there. We still did not let her go. Instead we let her
join a karate club, 
and she was also in dance and gymnastics. We pointed
out to her that she 
would not be able to do those extra activities if she
was in school because 
there would not be enough time. ( this was true as all
activities were out of 
town) She decided the activities were worth missing
school for. Now that she 
is 17 she says that she is glad that we never sent her
to school and she can 
talk to her friends and see how much they dislike it.
She is glad that we did 
not give in to her request but stood by our beliefs
that public school is not 
an option for us. 
Our other three children never wanted to go to school. 

Candy

Well, maybe I didn't clarify myself in my post. I think that if a
child says he wants to go to school, he shouldn't 'just go' without a
lot of discussion, about what school is and does and what people
do there, and why they want to go and what they think they'll get
out of it. If it's possible to find a compromise between what the
child wants (the activities or time with other children, or the ride
on the bus...) and what the parent wants, ie the freedom as a
family to come and go and do stuff together, then fair enough, if
the child, once all the pros and cons have been thoroughly (and for
something like this, I mean thoroughly) explored still wants to
experience school, then there could be ways (like flexi-schooling,
for one) to facilitate this without impingeing too much on the rest
of the family's freedom. Organising ways for the child (depending
on age) to get himself up (pre-made breakfast? alarm-clock?
clothes sorted in advance?) without disturbing one or all family
members isn't impossible, and transportation to and from school
may not be difficult to sort out in a similar fashion. The idea that
once a child's enrolled in a school they can't decide when they do
and don't go has already been disproved by Nicki's son, 'being ill'
when he just doesn't want to go, though honestly saying 'I don't
want to go today' would be preferable to me! I understand that
the school board might not like it much, but they might be
amenable to a fixed-day part-time arrangement...

I'm not actually arguing for school, btw, just that the child can
experience it without placing as much restriction on family-life as
most folk assume. And that the child can make such a decision,
given all the info that the parents can offer and anyone else he
might ask.

As a counterpoint, how many people take their children to
activities which are run in ways they (the parents) disagree with?
Would they stop the child from going? I have permission to
forward this from the author, she sent it to a UK home-ed list
today:

>>X adores swimming club, it's definitely the thing he looks forward
to most. At his stage, he trains with the club 3.25 hours per week.
The swimming when it hurts bit doesn't happen often, to be fair,
only during races or in T10's (an assessment where they are
recorded on how far they can swim in a continous 10 minute swim,
and there's a coach at each end nagging them if they're too tired to
tumble-turn at the ends!). I think if you're a certain sort of person,
there's a great satisfaction in pushing yourself to do well in spite of
discomfort, as well as the feel-good factor of endorphins!

Of course, you meet a fair proportion of pushy parents at a
competetive swimming club :0( - mostly of slightly older children
who are already swimming in national or regional races. People
who say that sometimes their child doesn't want to come, is too
tired to train, but mum/dad insist that it has to be done. Other
parents who are angry if their child does poorly in a race and
insists on talking them through it stroke by stroke telling them
where they went wrong. Parents living out their own thwarted
ambitions through their children.

IMO, the emphasis is too much on speed and competition even in
the D (development) squads that C is in. They get timed at each
training session on one stoke at one distance, and this all gets
recorded and a graph printed monthly showing how each child's
times are coming down. Unfortunately, at this stage this does very
little for good stroke development, and you see children sacrificing
everything they have been taught about good strokework in their
quest to beat the child in the next lane. Also, the slower children
are not popular amongst the squad members, generally.<<

This mother goes on to say that while he's interested and enjoying
it, she'll be taking him. I feel similarly about a class my children go
to, there are aspects I don't like but they enjoy it and so they go.

So what's the difference between this and school, apart from the
amount of time involved??

Tracy