DiamondAir

I have to say that I think the salvation of public schools may be coming
(but slowly) in the form of charter schools. We live in a very "alternative"
community with many homeschoolers and many parents who want educational
options. I was just looking through the catalog of what is available through
our public school system and there are 20 options besides just your
traditional school classroom. They include:

A democratic school
A Montessori school
A Waldorf-inspired school
An alternative "unschooling" school
A school that is a working farm
A drama school
A school that focuses on alternative transportation (they learn bicycle
creation skills and publish a statewide bicycling newspaper)
A military school
A one-room schoolhouse school

These are all charters and publicly funded! There's also 10 or so others I
haven't
typed in.

In addition, there's something here called "HomeSource", also publicly
funded, for homeschoolers. Kids can sign up for whatever classes they want,
from algebra to foreign languages to horseback riding. They only attend what
they want to sign up for. So if there's ever a subject that we need more
outside input on, or that we can't do (like horses, obviously), we can use
this option too.

I know there's a lot of debate about whether or not to use publicly funded
homeschool support options like this. I'm currently considering whether or
not to enroll my son in any of these classes when he becomes eligible this
year. On one hand, it does mean getting into "the system" by giving them
your name and identifying yourself as a homeschooler. OTOH, this area seems
to have a very good attitude about homeschooling, and none of my friends who
have enrolled have had any problems at all with it. The range of classes
looks really fun and I can attend with him and bring my other child with me
as well. I'm thinking it would be fun to take Spanish together as that is
something we've been trying (with limited success) to learn together at home
(per my son's wishes).

Anyone here have any strong feelings about whether that's a good idea or
bad?

So far I'm really impressed with Oregon's charter school concept,
homeschooling support and the options available to us. It's nice to know
that they exist, even if we don't currently plan to avail ourselves of them!
Maybe a day is coming when all students and parents will have so many
different options available to them and the tired, sad system that is in
place now will go the way of the dinosaurs, heaving slowly out of sight.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "A bee is pollinating my eye"
and Asa (10/5/99) "Asa eat buggy"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

Jon and Rue Kream

I can't find it, but didn't someone (Helen?) post an article about this
recently? ~Rue

-----Original Message-----
From: DiamondAir [mailto:diamondair@...]
Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 10:03 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] For those who think public schools are
doomed...


I have to say that I think the salvation of public schools may be coming
(but slowly) in the form of charter schools. We live in a very "alternative"
community with many homeschoolers and many parents who want educational
options. I was just looking through the catalog of what is available through
our public school system and there are 20 options besides just your
traditional school classroom. They include:

A democratic school
A Montessori school
A Waldorf-inspired school
An alternative "unschooling" school
A school that is a working farm
A drama school
A school that focuses on alternative transportation (they learn bicycle
creation skills and publish a statewide bicycling newspaper)
A military school
A one-room schoolhouse school

These are all charters and publicly funded! There's also 10 or so others I
haven't
typed in.

In addition, there's something here called "HomeSource", also publicly
funded, for homeschoolers. Kids can sign up for whatever classes they want,
from algebra to foreign languages to horseback riding. They only attend what
they want to sign up for. So if there's ever a subject that we need more
outside input on, or that we can't do (like horses, obviously), we can use
this option too.

I know there's a lot of debate about whether or not to use publicly funded
homeschool support options like this. I'm currently considering whether or
not to enroll my son in any of these classes when he becomes eligible this
year. On one hand, it does mean getting into "the system" by giving them
your name and identifying yourself as a homeschooler. OTOH, this area seems
to have a very good attitude about homeschooling, and none of my friends who
have enrolled have had any problems at all with it. The range of classes
looks really fun and I can attend with him and bring my other child with me
as well. I'm thinking it would be fun to take Spanish together as that is
something we've been trying (with limited success) to learn together at home
(per my son's wishes).

Anyone here have any strong feelings about whether that's a good idea or
bad?

So far I'm really impressed with Oregon's charter school concept,
homeschooling support and the options available to us. It's nice to know
that they exist, even if we don't currently plan to avail ourselves of them!
Maybe a day is coming when all students and parents will have so many
different options available to them and the tired, sad system that is in
place now will go the way of the dinosaurs, heaving slowly out of sight.

Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "A bee is pollinating my eye"
and Asa (10/5/99) "Asa eat buggy"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family


Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom

Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[email protected]

In a message dated 05/29/2001 2:34:39 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
skreams@... writes:


> Maybe a day is coming when all students and parents will have so many
> different options available to them and the tired, sad system that is in
> place now will go the way of the dinosaurs, heaving slowly out of sight.
>
>


With a lot of people coming up with these innovative ideas, I can see it!!

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Nicki Clark

<<A Waldorf-inspired school>>

My son went to a waldorf-inspired charter for a few months of K before I was
so horrified I pulled him. It was the worst of Waldorf combined with the
worst of PS. It was terrifying. They had children being "punished" in K by
having them run multiple mile-long laps at recess instead of being allowed
to play. My son was FOUR! They had more rules than I could dream ANY
kindergarten child could abide by.

The result was that my son's passion for art disappeared when he was only
"allowed" to do his art at certain times, in certain places and in very
restricted ways. He was constantly getting in serious trouble, being sent to
the corner (I thought this punishment method went out years ago - I
certainly never encountered it in school), time-outs, running laps. Talk
about taking a child's love of physical exercise away from them! Oh, my
complaints are too long and drawn out to bother with. Suffice it to say you
can't truly teach in a waldorf way unless you are a waldorf fan. You can not
send your average PS teacher to a week-long Waldorf training session and
expect them to continue on the traditions of waldorf education. And,
ultimately, charters (here at least) are still PS entities - they still
require testing, grades, push competition, have bullies and bad teachers,
all the politics involved with any other PS and lots more on top of it.

My son goes to a "regular" PS now with an "alternative" mutli-age program
instead of typical placements of first grade, second grade, etc. It is only
up through age 8. You move on to 3rd grade. You stay with the same teacher
for two years, same students as well. There is an emphasis on cooperation
and moving at your own pace and being the learner you want to be. I fell in
love with the multiage program at it's orientation but as I've
demonstrated - it is just another PS. My son's teacher is moving on to
another school within the district so he would not even have the benefit of
2 years worth of the same teacher. Half the students move every year so even
that stability isn't really existent. As for the emphasis on cooperation and
moving at your own pace - there is TONS of competition, bragging, gloating
and emphasis on success and "whose the best". The children still fall into
categories "Younger" and "Older" so what is the point of just calling them
those things instead of "first grade" or "second grade". It's all just words
when they are not treated any differently. From my past intro you can see
that my son did not get treated as if he is in charge of his learning and he
was not allowed to learn how he is most comfortable at the level which he
prefers. It's all just talk.

Charters are GREAT at telling parents what they want to hear. I have not yet
heard of a real charter in this area that is anything other than a typical
PS with all the same problems of other PS despite the "alternative" hopes. I
hate to be a downer, I am sure there are others with better experiences, but
I did want to share mine.

Nicki

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/29/01 10:41:59 AM, nicki@... writes:

<< Charters are GREAT at telling parents what they want to hear. I have not
yet
heard of a real charter in this area that is anything other than a typical
PS with all the same problems of other PS despite the "alternative" hopes. I
hate to be a downer, I am sure there are others with better experiences, but
I did want to share mine. >>

You would enjoy reading John Holt's _Teach Your Own_, definitely.

John Holt used to think schools could be reformed, and he worked at it hard,
for years. Then he came to believe that the failure wasn't in the method or
curriculum or the building or anything they had tried changing, but the
problems lay in the fact that the children were forced to be there, and in
artificial groups, and that no amount of changing what it looked like or
sounded like would remove the basic flaw.

Sandra

Nicki Clark

<<You would enjoy reading John Holt's _Teach Your Own_, definitely.>>

I read it (and every other Holt book I could gobble up) five years ago. So
maybe I'm just tainted going in <grin>. I absolutely belief the system
simply CAN NOT work. I believe it does not work because of it's very
nature - not just because of the curriculum, a few bad teachers, etc. I see
absolutely no difference in public, charter and private with the exception
being a nearby Waldorf private (big bucks) school where the children seem
genuinely to love being there and free to express themselves. But I bet it
wouldn't be long, even there, before I had gripes about "the system". I can
also see the positives but almost ALL situations in life present positives
as well as negatives and in the case of institutionalized schooling, I can't
justify the negatives with the few superficial positives.

Nicki

Nicki Clark

The bits of a thread about letting children choose their educational route
vs. choosing for them had me thinking. Dh and I talked about this a lot last
night and I'd like to hear other's points of view.

On the one hand, as an unschooler, I believe that children should have the
power to dictate their days. If they want to spend 10 hours doing math
worksheets that is their day, who am I to interfere. If they want to spend 6
months digging in the dirt I value that there must be something very
important (educationally) going on and butt out. When you take away a
child's power to learn what they want, when they want - you can easily take
away their love of learning. Resentment builds when you are told how to
learn, when to learn, what to learn. Soon learning is seen as a chore to be
done, at best, begrudgingly.

On the other hand, I am the parent. And although that doesn't mean, for me,
that I lord my power and control over my children I DO think there are
things I've learned (the hard way) in life that I'd like to spare my
children from. I don't subscribe to the mentality that "every hard lesson in
life makes you stronger/wiser/better". I think there are plenty of hard
lessons I could have avoided and actually come out a much
stronger/wiser/better person for having avoided them. School is one of those
areas for me. I hated it and seriously searched for my own answer but did
not have any support. I learned the hard way about what was best for me, how
I learn best, what my own goals were. I could have avoided all of that had I
been "allowed" out of school at a much younger age. I am positive of this. I
spent ALL my spare time learning and school was simply something to resent
for taking away my learning time. I would have been much better served to
spend 12 hours a day doing what I love instead of 2 hours a day. But had you
asked me when I was 6,7.8 if I wanted to homeschool I'm sure I would have
thought you crazy <grin>. The concept was as foreign to me then as it was
when I was 16 and wanted out of school. I was reluctant but that does not
mean it would have been the best decision for me. I feel like I needed a
parent to stand up for me and make those hard decisions for me. Sometimes,
even as adults, we can't see what would make us happiest and be in our best
interest because we are too close to the fire, so to speak. I had a hunch
but could not put the action to it to make it happen in the best way
possible. I feel the same for my child - that he has a hunch and an
inclination but does not have the maturity or the *something* - I don't know
what - to make a decision. He is a happy fence-sitter like me. He is happy
to do whatEVER he is thrown into (probably all those years or being thrown
back and forth). Yes, he says, he loves to stay home from school. Yes, he
says, he loves going to school. He is just a happy-go-lucky kid. There are
lots of underlying things that are going on with him to make him change that
don't (yet) affect his happiness.

Then there is another factor. We are a family. What choice one person makes
has the ability to seriously impact the rest of us. Is it fair for Dalton to
decide he'd prefer to go to school so he can play soccer every day for a
grand total of 1.5 hours - robbing the rest of us from 7 hours of his day?
Forcing the rest of us up much earlier than any of us feel comfortable,
interrupting naps and our day to go pick him up in the afternoon as well? Is
it fair that we have to miss out on LOTS of opportunities because Dalton has
chosen to go to public school? That we have to skip fun out of town trips,
going to museums and other longer adventures because it will run into the
time we must pick Dalton up from school? Then it is fair that we all have
to listen to Dalton whine about how mean we are for having gone to some
great exploration without him? I honestly feel like I can't give my other
child/ren the opportunities they deserve because of this ONE child's
decision.

Feedback appreciated...

Nicki

debbie jones

Nicki,
I would be interested to hear what you may have to say about Laurel Springs School based in California. It is a private online school which also offers textbook curricula. It is a flexible program designed to the individual child's learning style and disposition. If at anytime we decide that a book or class is not working for the child, we can change it. Are you familiar with this school? It doesn't sound like most private schools, as most, from my experience, have been much less flexible. Could it be that some of the private schools are changing the way they educate our children?
Debbie
Nicki Clark <nicki@...> wrote: <<You would enjoy reading John Holt's _Teach Your Own_, definitely.>>

I read it (and every other Holt book I could gobble up) five years ago. So
maybe I'm just tainted going in <grin>. I absolutely belief the system
simply CAN NOT work. I believe it does not work because of it's very
nature - not just because of the curriculum, a few bad teachers, etc. I see
absolutely no difference in public, charter and private with the exception
being a nearby Waldorf private (big bucks) school where the children seem
genuinely to love being there and free to express themselves. But I bet it
wouldn't be long, even there, before I had gripes about "the system". I can
also see the positives but almost ALL situations in life present positives
as well as negatives and in the case of institutionalized schooling, I can't
justify the negatives with the few superficial positives.

Nicki



Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom

Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Personal Address - Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/30/01 7:14:42 AM, nicki@... writes:

<< I learned the hard way about what was best for me, how
I learn best, what my own goals were. I could have avoided all of that had I
been "allowed" out of school at a much younger age. I am positive of this. >>

I loved school. I look back now and see things I wish could have been
different, but much of it is my affect on others. I wish I had been more
mature, more a champion of others (and I did often champion other kids, even
when I got in trouble for it). But school was my door to the world, and to
adults with education and open ideas and who had travelled and who read, and
that was where I was exposed to music (besides C&W and rock'n'roll on a local
station that had two hours of rock per day, with Spanish rancheras almost all
the rest of the time).

I still have friends I made in school. I still have things I made and wrote
in school.

It was pointed out to me by a friend when I offered the suggestion that my
four year old firstborn, pre-school Kirby, and her firstborn might like
school as much as I did. She said she HATED school, and what were the odds?

The odds are... maybe one in 30 or 50 kids really likes school, I think,
looking back.
Maybe more. Not many more. NOwhere near half. Nowhere near 1/3.

Most hate it. Some cry. Some ditch. Some kill themselves.

Sandra

[email protected]

--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> John Holt used to think schools could be reformed, and he worked at
it hard,
> for years. Then he came to believe that the failure wasn't in the
method or
> curriculum or the building or anything they had tried changing, but
the
> problems lay in the fact that the children were forced to be there,
and in
> artificial groups, and that no amount of changing what it looked
like or
> sounded like would remove the basic flaw.


Well, I do agree with that. Which is one reason our kids won't be
going to public school anytime soon, because you can't just pick and
choose to go one day and not go the next. Once you're enrolled, you
have to go every single darn day or "get in trouble". Man, the hoops
they used to put me and my parents through because my folks took us
out of school to go traveling. Even though I learned *far more* on
these travels than I ever learned in school, I still had to do the
catch-up homework and lug all these books with me.

But, I also think that when you start having options like we have
here, where homeschooled kids can take any classes they want and not
have compulsory daily attendance, that the school itself *is*
changing to meet people's needs. And if more people see that this is
available to them as homeschoolers, perhaps more people will feel
that they "can do" homeschooling (and yes, I know that we all know on
this list that you don't *need* all these bells and whistles to
homeschool, but the majority of people out there will feel more
comfortable doing it if they have resources available to them).
Perhaps then someday we'll have a system that offers education for
those who want it, when they want it. To a certain extent, I do
believe in the laws of economics (at least in our semi-capitalist
country, USA). If people take their kids from school, and use their
tax dollars to support an educational system in which kids have free
choice, then those choices will become more and more available. I'm
still not sure if I myself will choose to do this (largely because of
the logistics of registering with the system to do so), but in
general I think it's a positive direction for schools to be heading.


Blue Skies!
-Robin-
Mom to Mackenzie (8/28/96) "A bee is pollinating my eye"
and Asa (10/5/99) "Asa eat buggy"
http://www.geocities.com/the_clevengers Flying Clevenger Family

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/30/2001 10:16:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

<< I loved school. >>

Sandra, I am surprised you did not send your children to school. It always
seems like the people that loved school send their own kids, as they see in
only a positive light. What was the turning point in your life that lead you
to homeschooling and then unschooling? If I am not getting too personal.

I can understand people who loved school sending their kids to school but I
have never understood the people who hated school defending it and then
sending their own kids!
Candy

[email protected]

I agree with Robin and I think that homeschoolers (unschoolers not last nor
least) will change the way schools work, after some years of our flying next
to them (and around them) and showing that some of their truisms are not so
true. They will want those kids back in the public education fold and if
they have to sing and dance to get them, good. They should've been singing
and dancing years ago.

If schools make claims (if you can't read by eight you'll be a failure, etc.,
etc.) which we ignore and say "Ah--that turns out not to be so..." pretty
soon their claims will sound sillier and sillier.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/30/01 11:06:16 AM, discovery6@... writes:

<< What was the turning point in your life that lead you
to homeschooling and then unschooling? >>

I was a teacher!
And I went straight to unschooling, bypass school-at-home.

I had a luxury when I first homeschooled--Kirby's birthday is in late July.
He could have been held back on parental request. So I figured if at the end
of a year he hadn't learned what kindergartners should've, or if he still
wasn't much more ready for formal groups stuff, I could put him in
kindergarten the following year. And, I figured, if he went great guns and
WANTED school, and was all zippily prepared, I could say "we homeschooled
kindergarten" and I could put him directly into first grade. So I had a big
field of calm about that first year.

During that time, I got involved reading about homeschooling and
corresponding with homeschoolers, and there it was and here I am.

I thought Marty would probably want to go to school. We talked about it in a
positive light so if he wanted to go it would be easy for him to do so, and
he's a physical guy so I thought he'd like the sports and PE and all. I also
thought it would be a way for the two of them not to crowd one another in
life. But when time came, Marty wanted to stay home. Holly could have gone
to school, and used to say she wanted to. When she explained WHY she wanted
to, though, it was very unrealistic. She wanted to be in school with two of
the neighbors she always played with, but one was a year ahead of her and one
was two years ahead and went two blocks across the crowded thoroughfare
instead of eight blocks through the neighborhood to the "real" assigned
school.

That was a cool period of time in our lives. Holly spoke wistfully of it
this morning, about how many kids were in the old neighborhood. None are
there now but one teen. But for a while, there were five houses with kids
within an eight-house spread. No two families went to the same school (two
different public schools, a Catholic parochial, a private protestant school,
and us homeschooling), so our kids weren't the odd ones out at all. And we
had the coolest back yard, so they played together lots and lots.

I went to college from 1970 to 1974 (not counting sporadic little bits
afterward--I'm a three-time gradschool dropout <g>), and we were made to read
John Holt (against our wills!! <bwg>) and other reformers and activists and
theorists. I was a kind of radical teacher (a hippie who didn't use the
textbook). I learned a lot getting to know kids who were NOT honors
students, who did NOT take band and art as first-choice electives. I had
always hung out with the musicians, and figured the rest just weren't too
bright when I was a kid. We were tracked, so I had the perspective of
hanging out with "good kids" (academically, anyway).

La Leche League friends persuaded me to consider homeschooling.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/30/2001 11:17:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

<< Most hate it. Some cry. Some ditch. Some kill themselves.
>>

Or maybe most feel powerless and apathetic and do what they have to do to get
through it. Some are good at LOOKING like they love it, but do they even
consider that they might have a choice? I was too much of a good girl to ever
question that there might be a better way. If there was a problem -- algebra,
biology -- I knew that I was the problem, not the class or the teacher or how
the material was presented. I wasn't working hard enough or I wasn't smart
enough or I was "bad" at math, hopeless at biology. Just never questioned
that the fault was with me. The trick then, became to hide those faults.
Every time I got an "A", I knew I had succeeded in fooling someone. It wasn't
a measure of what I knew, but of what I had tricked them into thinking I
knew. There was no joy in learning, for me, as it sounds like there was for
you, Sandra. There was only fear, and relief if I could make it through
another hoop.

Did anyone see that PBS piece on Kip Kinkle? It was heartbreaking.

Laura

Tammy Graves

Candy wrote: I can understand people who loved school sending their kids to
school but I
have never understood the people who hated school defending it and then
sending their own kids!
>> I fall sort of, under this rule unfortunately. (I dont defend the school) But
do understand why some have to send their kids to school. Even though, my dh and
I both hated school, there were some parts that we still enjoyed. And it is
still the "norm" to send children to these places. I also NOW understand (or at
least I am much more aware) of my choices. However, a huge number of people
probably do not know of these choices, nor cannot or will not give up the 2
income check to be put into a almost welfare (for some) household. This may be
for various reasons (most of which will probably fall under the selfish label).
I know that there are some very good teachers as well that are still within
these schools that do their best to make sure all are happy and well attended
for (not the exact wording I wanted to use, but unable to really put it down). I
also think that many families are just afraid of this lifestyle. Its a big
adjustment for some I would imagine. If it wasn't for a distant family member
doing this herself and telling me about it, I'm sure that I would not be even
considering staying at home in the near future myself. I really did not know
that there was a choice outside of ps, private or a religion based school. I'm
glad to know now though. Thanks for listening





In a message dated 5/30/2001 10:16:51 AM Central Daylight Time,
SandraDodd@... writes:

<< I loved school. >>

Sandra, I am surprised you did not send your children to school. It always
seems like the people that loved school send their own kids, as they see in
only a positive light. What was the turning point in your life that lead you
to homeschooling and then unschooling? If I am not getting too personal.


Candy

Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com

To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom

Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
http://www.home-ed-magazine.com



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Betsy Hill

>Most hate it. Some cry. Some ditch. Some kill themselves.

Some hate it so much they beat up the other kids.

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 05/30/2001 6:29:24 PM !!!First Boot!!!, parrishml@...
writes:


> Some are good at LOOKING like they love it, but do they even
> consider that they might have a choice?


No.

From the parent to the child.

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Diana Tashjian

No, I didn't see it. Could you tell us the essence?

Thanks!
Diana Tashjian

----- Original Message -----
From: <parrishml@...>
<snip>
> Did anyone see that PBS piece on Kip Kinkle? It was heartbreaking.
>
> Laura

[email protected]

In a message dated 05/30/2001 8:45:56 PM !!!First Boot!!!, SandraDodd@...
writes:


> They should've been singing
> and dancing years ago.
>


Goodness knows.

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

scrunchy

We thought for a long time we had to send our son to school and that we
could not live without my paycheck. Once we learned that homeschooling
was an option, and a way out of a horrible situation, we re-evaluated
the need of my paycheck. We learned that we were spending half of it on
tuition; before and after school childcare; and other school and my
work related expenses. We could desperately use the money right now,
but it is a matter of priorities for us. I would like to have the money.
It would make life a lot easier. We were afraid of the lifestyle. But we
have choices. It is either creature comforts or our son's welfare. Don't
misunderstand: we have a roof over our heads, a car, food in the pantry,
two computers, and money for utilities, so we are making it. We also
have a child who is much happier ; is beginning to enjoy learning ; is
learning on his terms and on his own timetable. We no longer go from one
crisis to another. We no longer have the constant power struggles with a
teacher and inept principal . We no longer have a child who is under
pressure to the extent of almost being clinically depressed. We can all
go to bed when it meets our needs, without being concerned about
homework, or tests. Our son can play on the computer as late as he
wants..He and my husband are night owls and like to stay up late.
Selfishly speaking, I am no longer in a stressful work environment ; am
getting time to rest when I need it ; and now have time to pursue some
of my own interests.
My assessment is that we are all much better off for having made the
change. When I doubt this, my husband reminds me of the positive changes
he has seen in all of us.
Thanks for listening.
Norma

Tammy Graves wrote:

> But
> do understand why some have to send their kids to school. Even though,
> my dh and
> I both hated school, there were some parts that we still enjoyed. And
> it is
> still the "norm" to send children to these places. I also NOW
> understand (or at
> least I am much more aware) of my choices. However, a huge number of
> people
> probably do not know of these choices, nor cannot or will not give up
> the 2
> income check to be put into a almost welfare (for some) household.
> This may be
> for various reasons (most of which will probably fall under the
> selfish label).
> I know that there are some very good teachers as well that are still
> within
> these schools that do their best to make sure all are happy and well
> attended
> for (not the exact wording I wanted to use, but unable to really put
> it down). I
> also think that many families are just afraid of this lifestyle.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

scrunchy

Sad, but true.
Norma

Betsy Hill wrote:

> >Most hate it. Some cry. Some ditch. Some kill themselves.
>
> Some hate it so much they beat up the other kids.
>
> Betsy
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
[www.debticated.com]

>
> Message boards, timely articles, a free newsletter and more!
> Check it all out at: http://www.unschooling.com
>
> To unsubscribe, set preferences, or read archives:
> http://www.egroups.com/group/Unschooling-dotcom
>
> Another great list sponsored by Home Education Magazine!
> http://www.home-ed-magazine.com
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/30/01 4:35:18 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< Some hate it so much they beat up the other kids. >>

Oh yeah, I forgot.
Some KILL the other kids, or a teacher.
Or their mom.

Sandra

Betsy Hill

>Did anyone see that PBS piece on Kip Kinkle? It was heartbreaking.

I was curious about it, but it was on late here, and I didn't stay up. Can
you summarize?

Betsy

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/31/2001 10:40:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:

<< >Did anyone see that PBS piece on Kip Kinkle? It was heartbreaking.

I was curious about it, but it was on late here, and I didn't stay up. Can
you summarize?
>>

Sigh. When Diana asked, I kind of hoped someone else would jump in to
summarize before I could reply. I'm not sure how to explain how the show (PBS
Frontline: Killer at Thurston High) made me feel without sounding like I'm
judging the parents or the school or the other adults in this kid's life.

A few of things that made me cry: When he was four, his parents, high school
teachers, took a sabbatical in Spain and the kids were put in school there.
Kip couldn't speak Spanish, was bullied by the other kids, and hated it. His
older sister did quite well, as she seemed to do at everything.

Back in the States, Kip had trouble learning to read and was "held back",
despite what sounded like hours of after school reading "help" from his
parents (which was made to sound like a good thing, but made me cringe for
this little boy).

So, I'm not sure anyone could summarize the reasons why this boy killed his
parents. It didn't seem to be rage as much as -- what? -- fear? Knowledge
that he wasn't "measuring up" again? Despair? Perhaps he felt like seeing
their disappointment in him again would just kill him. (He had just been
caught with a gun at school, and his Dad had picked him up at the police
station. They had just gotten home when Kip went up to his room and came down
with a gun and shot his father in the back of the head.)

The whole thing is on the Frontline site.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/kinkel/

I was hoping someone here had some words of wisdom, because I was left
feeling sad and confused by the whole thing.

Laura