Pam Hartley

----------
From: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Unschooling-dotcom] Digest Number 1261
Date: Wed, May 23, 2001, 9:28 AM


Has anyone tried to tie this in with any adult that is illiterate? I mean,
the
news media and ps and such are always crying that more and more children and
adults are illiterate these days. If it is reasonable to say that you can
transmit basic literacy and math skills within about 50 hours, why are there
so
many illiterate adults out there? Do they just not want to learn? I am in
total
agreement with everything everyone has stated about late reading, but this
just
popped into my mind. This is not a condemning question.


----------
In my opinion, there are so many illiterate adults because schools try to
force a one-sized-fits-all curriculum on children. I think that is the
entire reason that there are adults we all know who hate reading, are afraid
of math, do not comprehend basic scientific principles, etc.

In the Book of Learning and Forgetting by Frank Smith he writes about how
true learning happens, and that it isn't always positive. Many, many
children learn, very well, that reading or math or science or pull-ups are
impossible and incomprehensible to them. They don't forget it, even when
they're all grown up, even if people around them are assuring them it's not
true.

Pam

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

>Has anyone tried to tie this in with any adult that is illiterate? I
mean,
>the
>news media and ps and such are always crying that more and more children
>and
>adults are illiterate these days. If it is reasonable to say that you can
>transmit basic literacy and math skills within about 50 hours, why are
there
>so
>many illiterate adults out there?

I think that the John Holt quote that is tantalizing us talks about adult
illiterates. I'm vaguely remembering something about 30 hours of
instruction to learn to read.

You could do a websearch of adult literacy and probably find a good answer.

If we really "worshipped" John Holt as some people claim, I'd have a handy
John Holt Concordance right here on my desk when I needed it. <bweg>

Betsy

LisaBugg

>
> You could do a websearch of adult literacy and probably find a good
answer.
>
> If we really "worshipped" John Holt as some people claim, I'd have a handy
> John Holt Concordance right here on my desk when I needed it. <bweg>
>
> Betsy

Ya think if I decided to write one it would sell and make me rich? Could I
make a name for myself like Strong did with the Bible concordance? I can
see it now.. Bugg's Holt Concordance......

I am never going to get rich, am I?

Helen Hegener

At 1:05 PM -0800 5/23/01, Betsy Hill wrote:
>I think that the John Holt quote that is tantalizing us talks about adult
>illiterates. I'm vaguely remembering something about 30 hours of
>instruction to learn to read.

Okay, somehow I missed this bit about the John Holt quote... Can
someone refresh my memory on that?

>If we really "worshipped" John Holt as some people claim, I'd have a handy
>John Holt Concordance right here on my desk when I needed it. <bweg>

Hey - I'd use it! <g>

Helen

[email protected]

In a message dated 05/24/2001 4:44:00 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
LisaBugg@... writes:


> Bugg's Holt Concordance......
>
> I am never going to get rich, am I?
>
>
>


Well, since most of us are broke most of the time . . . probably not! :):)

Good luck though.

Nance



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Betsy Hill

>>I think that the John Holt quote that is tantalizing us talks about adult
>>illiterates. I'm vaguely remembering something about 30 hours of
>>instruction to learn to read.
>
>Okay, somehow I missed this bit about the John Holt quote... Can
>someone refresh my memory on that?
>
>>If we really "worshipped" John Holt as some people claim, I'd have a
handy
>>John Holt Concordance right here on my desk when I needed it. <bweg>
>
>Hey - I'd use it! <g>
>
>Helen

Hi, Helen --

Someone asked about the idea that all of high school content (or all of it
that you really need) can be learned in a short number of hours. Sandra
and I thought it had been written about by John Holt, but couldn't cite
chapter and verse. <g>

Another poster came up with a John Taylor Gatto quote with a specific
number of hours in it. (Searching the archives for the last week for
"Gatto" should turn up this post.)

When the discussion turned to adult literacy, I posted the above that you
quoted. I still think that Holt is on record somewhere with some estimate
(low) of number of hours need to learn something. And I think he may have
based some of what he said on adults learning to read.

My memory is hopelessly vague, but that doesn't stop me from posting.
Sorry.

Betsy

Helen Hegener

At 8:01 AM -0800 5/24/01, Betsy Hill wrote:
>When the discussion turned to adult literacy, I posted the above that you
>quoted. I still think that Holt is on record somewhere with some estimate
>(low) of number of hours need to learn something. And I think he may have
>based some of what he said on adults learning to read.
>
>My memory is hopelessly vague, but that doesn't stop me from posting.
>Sorry.

Well, Betsy, your memory is more like right on target. I pulled my
copy of GWS #1-12 off the shelf and found a short essay in GWS #6
(September, 1978) titled "Thirty Hours" where John wrote about Ny
Lille Skole (My Little School) near Copenhagen, in which he described
a teacher who helped children who were interested in learning to read
by simply sitting with them and listening to their efforts for the
most part. John asked the teacher how much help these children seemed
to need, and the reply was "about 30 hours," a figure which rang a
bell for Holt.

Holt then writes about serving as a consultant to teach reading to
adult illiterates in Ohio, noting that after three ten-hour per week
sessions (30 hours): "My strong impression at the end of my three
weeks was that most of the students in the classes I had observed had
learned enough about reading in their thirty hours so that they could
go on exploring reading, and become as skillful as they wanted to be,
on their own."

He then recounts Paulo Freire's experiences with adult illiterate
peasants in Brazil: "He too found that it took only about 30 hours of
teaching..."

Holt ends with this: "Thirty hours. One school week. That is the true
size of the task."

Helen

[email protected]

I like the 30 hours quote.

The quote I didn't produce but thought I was remembering was something about
all of American public school education being easily learned in 18 months if
one waited to the age of 15 (instead of starting at 5 or 6). I thought it
was Holt. Might not be. I might've been dreaming following bad pizza.
(Not really-- I remember a couple of discussions a few years back about the
idea.)

Sandra

dawn

i think i remember seeing it stated by some fiction author, in his
nonfiction writings. but i'm drawing a total blank on whom.....salinger
maybe?


dawn h-s
**********
**********

On 24 May 101, Betsy Hill wrote:

> >The quote I didn't produce but thought I was remembering was something
> >about
> >all of American public school education being easily learned in 18 months
> if
> >one waited to the age of 15 (instead of starting at 5 or 6).
>
> I think Cafi Cohen might have written something similar. Maybe not these
> exact numbers.
>
> I haven't read her book(s), so I would have seen it in her HEM articles.
>
> Betsy
>
>
>
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Betsy Hill

>The quote I didn't produce but thought I was remembering was something
>about
>all of American public school education being easily learned in 18 months
if
>one waited to the age of 15 (instead of starting at 5 or 6).

I think Cafi Cohen might have written something similar. Maybe not these
exact numbers.

I haven't read her book(s), so I would have seen it in her HEM articles.

Betsy

Tami Labig-Duquette

Sandra,
Thats the one I have been thinkin about! So, I'm thinking that maybe its the
same one your thinking about, sounds so familiar! But, I am not sure to say
for sure.
Tami-who is tired and not sure LOL ;)

>From: SandraDodd@...
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: [Unschooling-dotcom] John Holt on Teaching Reading
>Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 19:11:59 EDT
>
>I like the 30 hours quote.
>
>The quote I didn't produce but thought I was remembering was something
>about
>all of American public school education being easily learned in 18 months
>if
>one waited to the age of 15 (instead of starting at 5 or 6). I thought it
>was Holt. Might not be. I might've been dreaming following bad pizza.
>(Not really-- I remember a couple of discussions a few years back about the
>idea.)
>
>Sandra

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[email protected]

In a message dated 5/24/01 11:15:02 PM, ecsamhill@... writes:

<< I think Cafi Cohen might have written something similar. Maybe not these
exact numbers.

<<I haven't read her book(s), so I would have seen it in her HEM articles. >>

We were in on the same homeschooling discussions in the early & mid 90's.
She probably has the same vague source I have! (OR maybe she remembers where
it came from.)

Sandra

Betsy Hill

>We were in on the same homeschooling discussions in the early & mid 90's.

>She probably has the same vague source I have! (OR maybe she remembers
>where
>it came from.

::::: smiling ::::::

Isn't this how legends get started? Indelible bits of folklore with no
clear source?

When are we gonna write the first unschooling ballad?

Betsy