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In a message dated 5/20/01 9:28:48 PM, bearspawprint@... writes:

<< How did you make reading available to your boys to
learn on their own? I know you had a more than subtle
influence!! >>

Y'know, I'm not Helen, but they publish a magazine out of their house, pretty
much, and so words are flowing in and out, and not just fluff-words, either,
but life-altering words. How could those boys NOT have reading available?
And is that a subtle influence or is that an overwhelming flood of "reading"
in which others are paying money to share?

<<My seven year old is
not reading yet. He understands how it is supposed to
work, but it just isn't fun for him. He doesn't even
want to read directions for things that he wants to
make! yet. He seems so resistant,>>

Let him be seven. Pressuring him in any overt or subtle way will make it
more and more un-fun for him until the point that he could resist reading
forever.

I was with Holly at tryouts for a musical. That's not a lower-class ignorant
environment; we weren't at a biker pool hall. A perfectly normal looking
grown white male said to the women he was talking to, "I don't read anything
I don't have to read." He meant it.

There are some very bad things school does. One is make reading a chore, a
chance for failure, something you can do late, or wrong, or badly. If moms
aren't careful, they can reproduce that result at home. Don't.

Sandra

Sharon Rudd

--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>

> There are some very bad things school does. One is
> make reading a chore, a
> chance for failure, something you can do late, or
> wrong, or badly. If moms
> aren't careful, they can reproduce that result at
> home. Don't.
>
> Sandra
>
Dear Sandra.....thanks for the warning. My home is
filled with words, too. Though I don't produce a
periodical. Books are everywhere...My older boys read
so young, as did I (4), of, anyway......I did need
reasurrance that everything is fine. Roy really
enjoys the interaction of being read to. I escape into
literature, he has no desire to escape. He has such a
large oral vocabulary that I expected him to just be
reading too ( the subtle influence you mentioned.
I'll try to not be too pushy while still making print
available......which it is. Lots of it!! He does
write messages to friends and relatives, and has the
rudiments. I'm sure the joy of reading will blossom,
too.

It is good to hear of others experiences. Now I'm not
in such a vacuum.

Sharon

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In a message dated 5/21/01 8:50:07 AM, bearspawprint@... writes:

<< He has such a
large oral vocabulary that I expected him to just be
reading too >>

I understand.

We're used to reading first, and then vocabulary learned (we think, we have
been told) from reading.

Kids can learn all KINDS of fancy language from the air, from talking with
adults, from watching movies.

Forty years ago kids were NOT talking with adults or watching movies. Kids'
books were awful, crummy line drawings or badly-colored sketches (even in
science books photos were rare), and now children are surrounded by cassette
tapes of all KINDS of stuff, videos, news shows with great color video (not
just a guy sitting reading AP wire stories to a camera, as much of what we
saw as kids was)--

Reading is not as crucial now as it used to be. It is neither the only nor
the best way to get information of many kinds. Reading Newsweek and Time
involve a goodly amount of reading the photos and maps and charts.

Because school didn't praise those skills and give us high marks for
reporting what we SAW on the news or what we learned orally from parents on
the way to school (must be in a newspaper or magazine, or from some
ten-year-old library book to be "real"), we tend to forget ourselves
(speaking for myself and other moms this has come up with) how huge the flow
of information is that our kids are swimming in!

Sandra

Betsy Hill

>There are some very bad things school does. One is make reading a chore,
a
>chance for failure, something you can do late, or wrong, or badly. If
moms
>aren't careful, they can reproduce that result at home. Don't.

Yeah. I have a very perceptive friend who told me that what her son was
learning in First Grade was that handwriting was too hard and that he
didn't like math. (Prior to that he had been enthusiastic about both math
and using a pencil.) This is the kind of stuff that I think schools and
imitations of school methods are best and teaching.

Betsy

Sharon Rudd

Dear Sandra
You present some interesting points of view. Thanks.
It is refreshing to look at things from a slightly
different perspective.

However sometimes this highlights for me just how
isolated my child and I have actually been. I'm afraid
I'm guilty of having been a bit of a hermit for quite
a while. As a result we have been able to (mostly)
avoid the huge swamp of media madness. We subscribe to
several periodicals, several book clubs, visit the
local library at least weekly, watch the local and
national news (with a large dose of salt) two or three
times/wk, and write to friends and relatives. Once or
twice a year we see some of the relatives.....my older
sons more frequently. I have belonged to some other
lists of personal interest which relieved that
(voluntary) isolation, somewhat. Now there is this
lovely list.

But we don't receive Time or Newsweek, nor do we "go
out" socially. It just isn't available, here. No, my
youngest one's verbal skills have been learned at
home.

He is growing at a different pace than his older
(adult) brothers, and as you and others have
suggested, I just need to let him develop at his own
speed. Which is perfect for him.....and me!

Thanks again, Sharon

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Helen Hegener

At 9:53 AM -0400 5/21/01, SandraDodd@... wrote:
>In a message dated 5/20/01 9:28:48 PM, bearspawprint@... writes:
>
><< How did you make reading available to your boys to
>learn on their own? I know you had a more than subtle
>influence!! >>

I must have missed this message somehow, and just caught it here on
Sandra's wise reply. We "made reading available" simply by always
having lots of stuff around to read, which we'd have done whether we
had kids or not because we're both reading addicts. And we never
really went out of our way to have children's books or
age-appropriate books for the kids - although we definitely had lots
of them, everything from Dr. Seuss to those Disney movie tie-in
books, and probably every "Little Golden Book" ever published, and
entire sets of classics, kid-type encyclopedia sets, etc. But those
are interesting to me, too, which seems like a good standard for
whether or not to have a book around. A couple of weeks ago I read
two supposedly children's books in one night, both biographical
fiction, those "diaries kept by pioneer children" type books, because
they were well-written and quite interesting.

We just always assumed the kids would read pretty much the same books
we did, only until they got old enough to actually read them they'd
just look at the pictures. Which they did. They'd always ask us about
photos and drawings and artwork that interested them, and we'd either
explain what it was, or read the caption or a bit of text about it.
Around here, books never had that weird "mystique" some people seem
to associate with them. They were just another tool, like a hammer or
the computer, and the kids used them with ever-increasing skill and
understanding.

One thing we did have lots of - and which probably helped them all
learn to read - was books on tape. Not just the little storybook/tape
sets, although we had dozens of those, but audiobooks on a vast range
of subjects. We have hundreds of them now, with their own
floor-to-ceiling bookcase, and the favorites have had their cardboard
cases taped back together numerous times. For us, our frequent road
trips were just good reasons to buy more audiobooks!

Interestingly enough, daughter Jody (21) was looking for a book on
herbs just yesterday, combing the bookcases here by my desk, and at
one point she stopped and thanked me for having so many good books
around, saying that it was like having her own private library to
come to when she wanted to know something. Yeah.

Helen

Sharon Rudd

> audio books on a vast range
> of subjects.

>
Dear Helen,

Thanks.

The contents of your home seem similar to mine.

Excepting the audio-books. In a past life, I worked
with blind people, and we used LOTS of audio
materials. I do have a few audio books, and have had
more, which I have passed along to my daughter-in-law,
perhaps I should have kept them. I get them for my
husband in his authors and subject matter. Ones that I
have listened to (in the car..alone...everyone else
likes other stuff) that seem to be of no interest to
anyone else, I've donated to the library. Where as
printed books I can barely bear to part with! Though I
have passed many along to my adult children and my own
siblings. Books are truly gifts from my heart. My
husband wants me to clear out my friends and advisors
(books)as they seem to be so much clutter to him. And
I have been culling some. Perhaps that is a subtle
GENDER RELATED negative influence? Train of thought
maybe is getting somewhere now!!

I'm going to mull this over a bit.....I suspect there
is more of this sort of background noise.

Thanks again, Sharon

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Helen Hegener

At 10:49 AM -0700 5/22/01, Sharon Rudd wrote:
> Ones that I
>have listened to (in the car..alone...everyone else
>likes other stuff) that seem to be of no interest to
>anyone else, I've donated to the library.

I have plenty in this category (stuff nobody else would listen to),
especially Joseph Campbell's "The Power of Myth" (although the kids
are getting into his tapes a little) and stuff like Stephen Hawking
and lots of novel-types that I wouldn't read if I were home, but are
good for long solo car trips (Anita Shreve's "The Pilot's Wife,"
Cormac McCarthy's "All the Pretty Horses," etc.).

> Books are truly gifts from my heart.

So true! Books are my favorite gifts for any occasion, to give or receive!

> My husband wants me to clear out my friends and advisors
>(books)as they seem to be so much clutter to him. And
>I have been culling some. Perhaps that is a subtle
>GENDER RELATED negative influence? Train of thought
>maybe is getting somewhere now!!

That would go over like a lead balloon around here. Something might
get culled, all right, but chances are it wouldn't be a book. <g>

Helen

LisaBugg

.

>
> Interestingly enough, daughter Jody (21) was looking for a book on
> herbs just yesterday, combing the bookcases here by my desk, and at
> one point she stopped and thanked me for having so many good books
> around, saying that it was like having her own private library to
> come to when she wanted to know something. Yeah.
>

I like it when they bring their friends over to sort through the books, or
to ask for recommendations. I heard Lindsey tell my daughter that we were
better than the library. <VBG>

Lisa

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In a message dated 5/22/01 8:59:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
HEM-Editor@... writes:

> I must have missed this message somehow, and just caught it here on
> Sandra's wise reply. We "made reading available" simply by always
> having lots of stuff around to read, which we'd have done whether we
> had kids or not because we're both reading addicts

For all of you who have always unschooled your kids, I'm curious about the
mechanics of how they learned to read. Did they pick it up on their own from
having watched and listened to you, or did you use some sort of program when
they indicated that they were ready?
Thanks,
Cheryl

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In a message dated 5/22/01 12:40:25 PM Mountain Daylight Time,
avalchro@... writes:


> For all of you who have always unschooled your kids, I'm curious about the
> mechanics of how they learned to read. Did they pick it up on their own
> from
> having watched and listened to you, or did you use some sort of program
> when
>

Mine didn't use any sort of program. We play games sometimes with rhyming or
words. And I would write things down for them to copy. I'd put sticky notes
with names of things on them and they'd stick them on the things for fun when
they were little. Kind of a rearranging game. Holly likes flashcards
sometimes, for a little while, sorting those she can sight read from those
she has to sound out. But she does it with other stuff too--signs as we
drive or whatever, just reading out the words she can sight read.

It's just gradual and treated like a fun thing. Just like recognizing birds
or different breeds of dogs, or different neighborhoods or towns (is this
still Nob Hill? where does Fairview start?). It's categorizing and naming,
as lots of other things are.

Sandra


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Helen Hegener

At 2:38 PM -0400 5/22/01, avalchro@... wrote:
>For all of you who have always unschooled your kids, I'm curious about the
>mechanics of how they learned to read. Did they pick it up on their own from
>having watched and listened to you, or did you use some sort of program when
>they indicated that they were ready?

We didn't use any kind of structure or program. It was kind of like
when they learned to walk and talk and ride bikes and swim and all
kinds of more complicated things: they tried, we helped when it
seemed appropriate, and eventually they got the hang of it. Nothing
mysterious.

Helen

Lynda

Sharon wrote:
>
> My husband wants me to clear out my friends and advisors
> (books)as they seem to be so much clutter to him. And
> I have been culling some. Perhaps that is a subtle
> GENDER RELATED negative influence? Train of thought
> maybe is getting somewhere now!!

Don't give up hope! DH was like that when we first met. Now he instigates
trips to the library used book sales and has one or two on his nightstand
that he reads every night.

Lynda

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--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., avalchro@a... wrote:
> In a message dated 5/22/01 8:59:46 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> HEM-Editor@h... writes:
>
>>
> For all of you who have always unschooled your kids, I'm curious
about the
> mechanics of how they learned to read. Did they pick it up on their
own from
> having watched and listened to you, or did you use some sort of
program when
> they indicated that they were ready?
> Thanks,
> Cheryl

My daughter will be 9 next month. I've spent a lot of time with her
since birth, reading Dr. Seuss and Golden books constantly. I tried
phonics flash cards, too, but she just wasn't interested in reading
for herself. She did love to hear me read, so I read all the little
house books, the Mary Poppins series, Caddie Woodlawn, the Wizard of
Oz series out loud to her. The neighbors got a kick out of seeing us
in the back yard in the summer, me reading out loud and Kate in the
pool, running to see the occassional picture. Then last summer we
started Harry Potter. We BOTH loved the books and would read until my
voice gave out. It seemed like every chapter left you hanging! She
finally took over and began to read so I could have a rest. First it
was a few paragraphs with prompting help when she got stuck. Then it
extended to pages and finally she could read just about anything she
wanted to, including signs and emails (over my shoulder!) and any
children's books, directions to get (Absolutely Free!!) stuff through
the mail. Once she started, she couldn't be stopped. I guess it just
takes something they really are interested in to get them going...

Terese in Milwaukee, WI

Betsy Hill

>For all of you who have always unschooled your kids, I'm curious about the

>mechanics of how they learned to read. Did they pick it up on their own
from
>having watched and listened to you, or did you use some sort of program
>when
>they indicated that they were ready?

Hi, Cheryl --

My son learned to read last year. When he seemed ready to me we used the
first set of Bob books. He was able to read the first two, very slowly,
but with satisfaction. After that we used the Between the Lions TV show.
(It was on 5 mornings a week, so I just kept turning the TV on and
sometimes he would wander past and enjoy it I also taped some episdes and
played them when he asked for them. We also used a couple other phonics
shows taped off of PBS.) He read a lot of road signs, as his reading
capabilities developed. He was really focused on that for many weeks.
Either before or after we got the Bob books, he invented a game with his
Pokemon poster where he would read the first three letters and I would have
to guess which Pokemon it was. This whole game was his idea. (OK, it was
my idea to hang up the poster that had names and pictures paired together.)
He also played the spelling game on the Arthur's reading race CD, but he
mostly used the "cheat" feature on it. Still, it was exposure to spelling.

The path for every kid will be different. The materials that each kid may
like to work with may be different. My kid didn't like books much at the
pre-school stage, so memorizing Hop on Pop and learning from that (which
seems like such a natural method) wasn't gonna happen for us.

Betsy

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In a message dated 5/22/01 5:03:02 PM, tpeterson@... writes:

<< finally she could read just about anything she
wanted to, including signs and emails (over my shoulder!) >>

Yes, THERE is the true test of reading, if a kid can silently read over your
shoulder quickly enough before you close the instant message that they can
quote it back to you and ask what you were talking about. eeek!

My oldest two can DEFINITELY read now. <g>

Sandra

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In a message dated 5/22/2001 2:40:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
avalchro@... writes:


> For all of you who have always unschooled your kids, I'm curious about the
> mechanics of how they learned to read. Did they pick it up on their own
> from
> having watched and listened to you, or did you use some sort of program
> when
> they indicated that they were ready?

Hi Cheryl,

Lelia, my daughter picked it up on her own pretty m uch. . . we did not use
any program, but just read out loud, and it just came to her. . .just by
being immersed in it I suppose.





lovemary
If you wanna make the world a better place, take a look at yourself, and then
make a change.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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In a message dated 5/22/01 12:29:11 AM Central Daylight Time,
ecsamhill@... writes:


> Yeah. I have a very perceptive friend who told me that what her son was
> learning in First Grade was that handwriting was too hard and that he
> didn't like math. (Prior to that he had been enthusiastic about both math
> and using a pencil.) This is the kind of stuff that I think schools and
> imitations of school methods are best and teaching.
>
>

Hi. I've been lurking forever, but finally have time to read and respond.
My life has been a turmoil lately. Anyway...this post hit my button because
my SIL was just here talking about her 7 yo boy over the weekend. He's very
bright, but not in the "school-defined way" (her words) and he's naturally
adept at Math. But she was telling me how he has learned to "hate" Math
because it has become synonomous(sp?) with "timed test." Turns out this
teacher is having the kids take timed addition and subtraction tests with the
goal of getting 30 correct in one minute. At first grade???? I was
incredulous!

Carol


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Just adding to Helen's great reply. Most of you probably already do this,
but one way we've made reading available to our kids is to put reading
material in the bathroom. We just got three boxes of old National Geographic
magazines from a library giveaway and my 12 yob (who is not an avid reader of
anything else except farming mags) will lock himself in the bathroom for an
hour at a time. Of course, this is sometime inconvenient for others, but
hey, he's reading and getting that pre-teen "privacy time" at the same time!

Carol


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]