Joel Hawthorne

Jill,
Good luck. The tv question is an issue for me. My wanting them to do
what they want to do is certainly challenged by the lulling, siren call
of TV. I would suggest you check out the Holt site:
http://www.holtgws.com/index.htm for information and support. Also
check out naturalchild project (see below) Read "The Fear of Being
Permissive" archived there. If you have limits on your internet access
I could email you a copy of that article.

I would imagine if you were doing the "homeschool" route with an
emphasis on the school part there will be a considerable period of
adjustment while you get up to speed on what unschooling really means
and for your kids to adjust to the idea that they really are trusted to
come to know themselves and their own interests.

My six year old has just started to pick out words she recognizes. Her
sister did this at three. I really have 95% come to believe that it
doesn't make any difference when people get to the things they think are
important except that they be the one's to decide what those things are
and when they should learn them.

--
best wishes
Joel

All children behave as well as they are treated. The Natural Child
Project http://naturalchild.com/home/

Work together to reinvent justice using methods that are fair; which
conserve, restore and even create harmony, equity and good will in
society i.e. restorative justice.
We are the prisoners of the prisoners we have taken - J. Clegg
http://www.cerj.org

Anita Bower

I am an unschooler that periodically gets worried and imposes some academic
requirements (other than reading, which we do daily and is a joy for all).

This was the case before my son took the 5th grade standardized test. We
spent time most days working through "Scoring High" in preparation of the
test--both to learn test-taking skills and cover material we might not have
touched upon (turned out to be a quick way of learning some grammar).

Now, having taken the test, I am back to letting my son do what he wants
(except--no "screen time" until my nap in the afternoon). I am
rediscovering the joys of unschooling.

My son is pursuing his various interests: Roller Coaster Tycoon,
carpentry, Little League, Karate, riding his dirt bike, listening to us
read aloud, mowing our large yard, taking care of his chickens, and
starting a mowing business (he has one customer). He is also asking
interesting questions.

I am enjoying my role as facilitator. I get info on the various questions
he asks: "Why do most pictures of teeth show two roots but his baby teeth
didn't have any?"--this led to reading about teeth and doing an experiment
with eggs. "What is the difference between hail and snow?" This led to a
family discussion and looking up many references until we felt we
understood the basic differences. "How can I catch bass in our pond?" We
went to the library, found a couple of excellent books on fishing, he
talked with 2 friends about fishing and what lures, etc. to use, we have
gone fishing. "I wish I could draw better." We attended "Art all Morning"
and he learned some pointers for drawing faces.

We are having a wonderful time. I am reminded, as I need to be time and
again, that my son is naturally curious and that much will be learned by
pursuing his interests.

I would love to read about other's experiences.

Anita
"There are many will claim to tell you what is due from you, but only one
who can shear through the many, and reach the truth. And that is you, by
what light falls for you to show the way." Brother Cadfael in "The Devil's
Novice" by Ellis Peters.

[email protected]

Dawn \
I had to pop in here. Isn't it great when something like this happens?
My 12yr old dd has been out of ps since last may and is very
unmotivated. Yesterday I bought this *Who dunnit* project pack. She
saw this among the shopping and looked at it with interest. We then
spent the next 3 hours (at her request) trying to discover *who
dunnit*. You have to solve all the clues to be able to do this - the
clues include maths = games - map reading - lots of reading. Some
of the clues were really quite hard. We did not get the right
answere - but we did have a lot of fun.

And, dare i say, I think I've got it!!

marianne

[email protected]

In a message dated 1/31/2001 11:05:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,
tonitoni@... writes:


And, dare i say, I think I've got it!!

marianne




Marianne,  That sounds so cool!  My son would love that too.  He has been
reading my old Nancy Drew books because he loves a mystery!  Isn't it great
when they lead us into something and we see it all come together!

Hang in there!  Dawn

Bridget E Coffman

>I think unschooling by definition means not to school a
>child. Not even a little. It does sound extreme, but that's what it
means to
>me. And throwing any enforced 'format' into the mix changes it.
>
>Brenda
>

That's all well and good Brenda, but I've been told that what we are
doing cannot possibly be unschooling because we sat down together and
worked out a way for the housework to get done without one person having
to pick up the slack left by the other 4.
Every decision made in this household includes input from 4 people.
(Wyndham often lives in a different world but that's his choice.) I keep
hearing about how I don't respect my children as individuals but yet
everything I do includes them or thoughts of how it affects them. Not
that I don't take time for me too, just that we discuss it and they
understand it.
I asked this before and did not get an answer: It sounds to me like you
have set yourselves up to be at the beck and call of your children. Or
at the very least, that you expect NOTHING from them. Is that really
how it works? Is that really what you are advocating as unschooling?
Because that is what it sounds like to me.

Bridget

~~~~~~~~~~~~ F u cn rd ths u cnt spl wrth a dm! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If electricity comes from electrons . . .
. . . does that mean that morality comes from morons?

Tia Leschke

>
>
>That's all well and good Brenda, but I've been told that what we are
>doing cannot possibly be unschooling because we sat down together and
>worked out a way for the housework to get done without one person having
>to pick up the slack left by the other 4.

Can't we separate the unschooling discussion from the parenting one?
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
********************************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

[email protected]

>
> That's all well and good Brenda, but I've been told that what we are
> doing cannot possibly be unschooling because we sat down together
and
> worked out a way for the housework to get done without one person
having
> to pick up the slack left by the other 4.
> Every decision made in this household includes input from 4 people.
> (Wyndham often lives in a different world but that's his choice.)
I keep
> hearing about how I don't respect my children as individuals but yet
> everything I do includes them or thoughts of how it affects them.
Not
> that I don't take time for me too, just that we discuss it and they
> understand it.
> I asked this before and did not get an answer: It sounds to me
like you
> have set yourselves up to be at the beck and call of your
children. Or
> at the very least, that you expect NOTHING from them. Is that
really
> how it works? Is that really what you are advocating as
unschooling?
> Because that is what it sounds like to me.
>
> Bridget
>

Your system, as I recall it, included things like writing.
I believe that was the point of contention. Not housework.
To me there is a difference in requiring my children to do chores and
help out our family in our everyday lives, and requiring them to
learn thing that I believe are important to know. The former deals
with the immediate ( a livable environment, a sane mother ;-/,
respect for each other and their things....,) the latter has nothing
to do with me personally and I would feel hugely invasive, and wrong
if I tried to make my children practice writing or math or ....as if
I knew more than them, where there interests and passions lie. As if
I didn't trust in their intelligence.
I know non coercive parents don't see the line that I do, and
intellectually, I don't really either, but emotionally, I haven't
been able to live in this household without having some control over
the immediate environment. I accept that, and while I know/feel it
is a shortcoming on my part, it is one that I can live with while
striving to be as respectful and mindful(though I fail miserably at
times) as possible.
Anyway...Do you deny that you require certain school type stuff from
your children, even if it is part of a larger choice?(your list, as I
recall). Simply by putting writing on that list implies an
importance to you, and a mistrust that writing will be learned,
because your children will, on their own, come to see it as a vital
part of their lives.(or not, and therefore don't really need to do
much of it). Requiring anything implies a mistrust in the person to
do it on their own(as I have done with my children and my household
rules), If I ever extend that into areas of their education, I would
no longer consider myself an unschooling parent.
That's my take on it.
Joanna

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/17/01 11:48:39 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
rumpleteasermom@... writes:


> It sounds to me like you
> have set yourselves up to be at the beck and call of your children. Or
> at the very least, that you expect NOTHING from them. Is that really
> how it works? Is that really what you are advocating as unschooling?
> Because that is what it sounds like to me.
>

I cannot proclaim what unschooling is. I can only say what my interpretation
of it is. I don't think of myself as at the beck and call of anyone. If my
son needs me, I'm his mother, I love him and I respond. If my own mother or a
friend called for love and support, I'd probably put away my needlepoint to
offer what I could. I wouldn't consider this beck and call, I'd call it being
available to my loved ones. I wouldn't say, sorry, I need some alone time
right now, and I don't want you to get the wrong idea about our relationship.
Expecations is a heavy word. I can't honestly say I don't have any, but I can
honestly say I don't verbalize or enforce any. I would have a problem with a
child who grew up in my home and laid around doing nothing for years while
everyone else slaved away to take care of him. I don't see this as the
logical end to my own parenting method. I believe my son (and generally any
child) naturally wants to help, be a part of, etc. Sure there are times when
he doesn't want to do stuff, there are times when I don't either. And
sometimes, it's ok. I think when I push myself or my son too hard without
some just do nothing time is when we see more resistance. As others have said
on here, when you take away the have-to philosophy and the word chore, it's
just something else to do together.
My own parents insisted that if they didn't force me to eat well, I wouldn't.
Well, left alone to decide what *I* wanted, I now eat healthier than they do.
I also do massage therapy and one of the biggest things I learned in school
is that a lot of people (children included) don't need someone to *fix* them.
They need a space to be. An open, unconditionally loving space to just relax
and be. And when they have that space, they start to heal themselves. I've
experienced this personally and I can't think of a better way to parent than
to give children the love and space they need, and watch them grow and
blossom.

Brenda


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wendy Silver

Hello,
I was thinking about what Bridget said -not expecting anything from
children. I don't call myself an unschooler, I might be there in theory, but
I still seem to have one foot on shore, this list really does help, even the
arguing aspect. Growing up in my family, arguing was a sport.
Anyway, I could be way off, but the beauty of unschooling is that things
work out more peacefully and better than if I was orchestrating everything.
My kids are younger, so maybe I am clueless about I will be expecting in the
future. So far, my kids are mostly considerate of their family and friends,
so they naturally help out and learn.
I want my children to figure out their own expectations for themselves, and
I will definitely be part of that, but I don't want my expectations to
stifle theirs.
Now, what would I do if I had a 15 year old that wanted to get married or go
in to the illegal drug business? I might be very imposing.

Wendy

Sharon Rudd

Dear Tia

Here is a question to unite us: How?

Sharon

--- Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:
> >
> Can't we separate the unschooling discussion from
> the parenting one?
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
********************************************************************************************
> It is the answers which separate us, the questions
> which unite us. - Janice
> Levy
>
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Tia Leschke

At 03:55 PM 9/17/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Tia
>
>Here is a question to unite us: How?

Good question. I guess we have to accept that there are unschoolers who
also unschool parenting, and unschoolers who don't. I know there are
unschoolers who believe children must never be made to do anything they
don't want to, but I'd think they are a subset of unschoolers. Like
unschoolers are a subset of unschoolers. I think I'm tying myself up in
knots here. Clear as mud? Or was that even what you were asking? I
think it's time for bed here. <g>
Tia

What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Fetteroll

on 9/17/01 5:27 PM, Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...> wrote:

> That's all well and good Brenda, but I've been told that what we are
> doing cannot possibly be unschooling because we sat down together and
> worked out a way for the housework to get done without one person having
> to pick up the slack left by the other 4.

This very much misrepresents the exchange. Or the entire disucssion was a
misunderstanding about what people were saying was not unschooling.

I pulled the quotes from your original message that were being objected to.
They were about *academics*. You didn't explain (despite the fact that I
posted them twice and asked twice) how it could be child-led, uncoerced,
natural learning if you're determining that a specific amount must be done
in order for the learning to take place. I *understand* that you have this
on your chores chart. I *understand* you put it there for convenience sake.

But for those trying to understand how kids can learn what *they* need to
know (as opposed to what others say they need to know) by pursuing what
interests them, it is confusing if someone says it's unschooling to insist
that something needs to be learned in a particular way.

To me, an unschooling approach would be to give a child information she's
lacking in order to make an informed choice. For instance, let her know that
colleges *may* expect more writing than she's used to. (It really depends on
the college and the course of study she pursues.) She may or may not feel
that's a problem.

If she does, there are many ways to approach it. She could take a community
college course. She could find a program and go through it on her own. She
could post to message boards. She could find pen pals. She could write in a
journal. She could write articles for the local paper. She could write to
some students at the colleges she's thinking of and *ask* how much writing
is involved. (Colleges generally have some students who volunteer to host
others.) Or other options. She could ask mom to remind her.

If *she* insists writing 500 words each week is the best approach and *she*
insists she needs someone to *make* her do it each week and punish her if
she doesn't, then that's an area to discuss.

It might be motherly (or following your heart or "common sense" or whatever
you'd care to label it nor not label it) to insist it is a problem and she
needs to do something about it. And if someone wants to do that, then they
should do that. But it's unfair to others trying to understand unschooling
to call it unschooling.

It would be unschooling to know that she's the best judge of who she is and
what *she* needs and to know that she needs to make the decisions that feel
right for her. If she later finds out the decision had consequences she
hadn't anticipated, then she's learned something else and can then reassess
the problem and seek a new solution.

The best way to learn to write is by writing for real, personally meaningful
reasons. If the kids aren't writing without someone reminding them, then it
isn't real or personally meaningful to them. It may be a "chore" they choose
over cleaning the toilet, but it isn't child led learning anymore than
choosing an apple over dog food is child-led eating.

The best way to write a lot is by having real deadlines for real reasons.
She'll be getting those (sort of) in college. (Only sort of because the
consequences are all made up. Unlike in the business world, neither the
world nor the college will be a better or worse place if a paper is or isn't
turned in. Colleges have to make up consequences -- grades -- so that there
are consequences to doing or not doing homework.) There will be a real
reason for doing the writing to a certain standard and she will have full
freedom to do it or not do it, knowing the consequences are not negotiable.

To me, anyway, writing as a chore is even further removed from real actions
being tied to real consequences since the chore consequences don't depend
specifically on the writing. The purpose of writing should be to communicate
something to someone else for a real reason. (As I'm doing here.) Not to
fulfill a word limit. The consequences of writing well or not writing well
are not gaining or losing car privileges (or whatever) but communicating or
not communicating. Writing in order to get 500 words onto the page won't
have the same result as writing because *the writer wants* to change
someone's mind about something, or tell them something they didn't know
before.

BTW, here's the quotes:

the word "MY" in "as long as it meets my basic standards of HOW MUCH." (in
reference to writing each week.)

the words "have to" in "they have to write (physically)"

And there was another quote a few days later that said your daughter
(paraphrasing since I've emptied my deleted items folder) "had to get used
to writing this much in college each week."

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 09/18/2001 3:38:55 AM !!!First Boot!!!, wew99@...
writes:


> Now, what would I do if I had a 15 year old that wanted to get married or go
> in to the illegal drug business? I might be very imposing.
>
> Wendy
>
>


I'll bet they won't -- unless they go to ps that is! Prejudiced? Me? Yep.
I think the kids are safer at home. So sue me.

Nance


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

> In a message dated 9/17/01 11:48:39 AM US Eastern Standard Time,
> rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>
>
> > It sounds to me like you
> > have set yourselves up to be at the beck and call of your children. Or
> > at the very least, that you expect NOTHING from them. Is that really
> > how it works? Is that really what you are advocating as unschooling?
> > Because that is what it sounds like to me.
>


No. Not exactly. I'm not a real soft Mom. You know what I mean? Maybe
not. I do hugs and cuddling on the couch and say I love you and will get a
child cookies and milk even though I am already in bed -- are they spoiled?
maybe. But I don't pull punches and do the "you're just a little kid so let
me wait on you hand and foot" bit. When it's time to go or do or pick up --
if the message isn't getting thru -- that for the 1 millionth time, when we
go somewhere you have to find your shoes and put them on for instance! -- I
point that out. I think it is a balance. I am nice -- but I am not gushy.
It's just my personality. If you met me you wouldn't see ruffles and lace
and fresh baked cookies. You would see a relatively clean T-shirt and shorts
and cookies -- well, have Oreos. I do the finances and the biz phone calls
-- not all fun stuff. I do the house -- minimally. I expect children to do
what they are capable of -- pick up you stuff and put it somewhere. But we
are nice to each other -- most of the time. It's just not gushy -- it's
straight talk to people I think can understand what I am saying.

That's probably not clear at all.

Nance

P.S. Dad is the softie btw -- good for a massage or a wrestle even after
it's time to "settle down in there!"



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sharon Rudd

Hi Joyce,
This sounds interesting. How does this work? Do you
mean tutors?

That was a good list of writing suggestions (as
opposed to demands).........
Sharon
...................................................
. (Colleges generally have some students
> who volunteer to host
> others.)
> Joyce


__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
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[email protected]

In a message dated 9/17/01 9:38:55 PM, wew99@... writes:

<< Now, what would I do if I had a 15 year old that wanted to get married or
go
in to the illegal drug business? I might be very imposing. >>

Some people will say "By then it will be too late."
That's a lot of the defense of those who will say right in English that they
"keep their kids on a short leash." We have some relatives who are totally
strict with their kids, still telling them what to wear when they're young
teens, still forcing them to go to church and family functions whether they
want to or not.

They're pretty sure they're preventing those children from wanting to get
married at 15 or going into the illegal drug business.

Then we have other friends and relatives (and we keep trying to more like
them) who spend a lot of time with their kids discussing why one way of
dressing for a particular activity is better than another, and why it might
be particularly nice if the would buck up and go to this birthday party or
that reception.

Unless a family is willing to take "no" for an answer (and it's usually, "I'd
really rather not mom, is that okay?" and never "NO"), they will never be
able to have the pure joy of a "Sure, I'll go" or "You're right--that t-shirt
would offend grandma" or whatever other well-thought-out positive response
they get when the child has the models and understanding and opportunity and
desire to be courteous and compassionate.

I know personally, in my youth and now, people who will purposely be
offensive and purposely uncooperative, because they just got tired of not
having a choice, and not being respected, and when they got a chance to leave
they did.

When being home with the parents is pleasant and warm, dealing drugs or
marrying the first willing person who comes along aren't sensible, good
options.

I know two homeschooled girls who married early. In both cases they were the
oldest girls in families with other kids and the parents just expected them
to take care of all those kids, more than was reasonable, and didn't give
them freedom or opportunity to get out on their own much. Both married older
guys, to get out. I know one was 16 and the other was, I think, seventeen.
Neither was unschooled. Neither had a mom who seemed warmly interested in
them personally.

I figure every good example and every bad example helps those who see them
and consider them. I started learning what kind of person to be from the
time I could look around and see which of my relatives and neighbors were
nice and which weren't, and which were helpful and which were just hard-eyed
and mean.

Sandra

"Everything counts."
http://expage.com/SandraDoddArticles
http://expage.com/SandraDodd

Bridget E Coffman

>> Or at the very least, that you expect NOTHING from them. Is that
really
> > how it works? Is that really what you are advocating as
unschooling?
> > Because that is what it sounds like to me.
> >
> > Bridget
> >
>
> Your system, as I recall it, included things like writing.

I really don't want to be discussing my system anymore but this statement
keeps popping back up again and again. Yes there are some things
considered (by those who differentiate) schoolwork on our jobs list. The
list was worked out by all of us together and was working great. My
girls asked for a little more 'guidance' with schoolwork. I gave them
the bare minimum of suggestion. Things like do a science experiment or
write something. The list is always up for revision. If anyone is
unhappy with any part of it, it is up for discussion (well not the
dishes).
But my point here has less to do with how our family 'works' and more to
do with the fact that we have been over this repeatedly and I am still
being told that I 'require' writing.

> I believe that was the point of contention. Not housework.
> To me there is a difference in requiring my children to do chores and
> help out our family in our everyday lives, and requiring them to
> learn thing that I believe are important to know. The former deals
> with the immediate ( a livable environment, a sane mother ;-/,
> respect for each other and their things....,) the latter has nothing
> to do with me personally and I would feel hugely invasive, and wrong
> if I tried to make my children practice writing or math or ....as if
>

I NEVER tell them what to learn or think or believe. The only parts of
their lives that I have a definitive 'say' over are the parts that affect
us all - things like "No Rachel, your painting project can't tie up the
dining room table indefinitely - put it on the porch table please."
Of course that is why I have one witch, one militant agnostic one
pantheist and one undecided living here with me, the tree worshipper
(Druids - we don't worship the trees, we worship WITH the trees.) I
believe it is their right to decide what they believe.

> Do you deny that you require certain school type stuff from
> your children, even if it is part of a larger choice?(your list, as
> I recall). Simply by putting writing on that list implies an
> importance to you, and a mistrust that writing will be learned,
> because your children will, on their own, come to see it as a vital
> part of their lives.(or not, and therefore don't really need to do
> much of it). Requiring anything implies a mistrust in the person to
> do it on their own(as I have done with my children and my household
> rules), If I ever extend that into areas of their education, I
> would no longer consider myself an unschooling parent.
> That's my take on it.
> Joanna
>

I don't deny that there are suggections for 'schoolwork' on the list. I
do deny that it is MY list. It is OUR list. And as for what is tied to
it, Jenni has never had any problems with the household stuff. Rachel
has some medical problems and when she gets to doing nothing, the list is
an acurate indicator that she needs help - either help avoiding allergens
or a medication adjustment. When Rachel is out of whack physically, she
looses my mothers car. The list just tells us when that is happening so
we can catch it earlier.
As for overseeing their 'education', I wish . . . I am sick to death of
hearing about hydraulic brakes and locomotive wheel bases, but I still
have to feign interest anyway.

As I explained before, the list is not about me imposing MY household
rules on them. It is about the fact that my husband could not
disassociate himself from certain things. I sat down with the girls and
talked about what needed done and why it was unfair to expect him to keep
doing it. The list just defines what has to get done without his help.
It is as much for his benefit as any of the rest of us. It just works
backwards for him. He in not allowed to do anything on the list
(generally - there have been exceptions) when he gets home from a 10 hour
day at work.

I don't care if you don't want to consider us unschoolers or not. At
this point I think I would like to NOT be confused with the few here who
keep attacking my home life, so maybe I prefer not to be called that at
this point. But the one thing I can say for sure is that I am tired of
explaining the same things over and over again as if I have not said it
before.

Bridget

PS - They KNOW how to string words together. The suggestion arose
because Rachel wants to go to college in the spring and I think (from
personal experience) that it would be helpful if she got used to writing
now. (Physically writing - you know as in taking notes and writing
tests.) So we put it on the list. She has, to my knowledge written a
few things but not much. In three weeks or so, I think I've seen one
page.

PPS - Someone else said they don't call it a 'chore' it is just something
they can do together. That attitude would get a hearty laugh here. My
girls have a great sense of wordplay. I suspect if I told them about
that, they would decide to start calling all chores "Fred" or "Albert".
As in "Who's doing that Fred today?" They are firm believers in "A rose
would smell as sweet by any other name."

~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~
Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought

- Henri Bergson

Sharon Rudd

> rumpleteasermom@... writes:
>
> > It sounds to me like you
> > have set yourselves up to be at the beck and call
> of your children. Or
> > at the very least, that you expect NOTHING from
> them. Is that really
> > how it works?

If you have not the decided that Grandfather Sun will
rise in the morning even though you know the dynamics
of our Solar System and then it happens, the Sunrise
is a beautiful wonderfull gift. The Sunrise was not
induced to happen by your own expectations, even
though you assumed it would happen. Grandfather Sun
rises and we are gratefull. Our children grow and we
are gratefull. The internal sun in our children
continues to rise and rise and rise and we continually
are surprised and appreciative....but that internal
sun doesn't really need us to force it. It rises on
its own volition. All we do is to try to not turn away
and make a night in the spirits of the little ones.

Sharon

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In a message dated 9/18/01 8:44:56 AM, rumpleteasermom@... writes:

<< Someone else said they don't call it a 'chore' it is just something
they can do together. That attitude would get a hearty laugh here. My
girls have a great sense of wordplay. I suspect if I told them about
that, they would decide to start calling all chores "Fred" or "Albert".
As in "Who's doing that Fred today?" They are firm believers in "A rose
would smell as sweet by any other name." >>

One thing that's not true is "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words
will nver hurt me."

It's easier to euthanize mutts than petts. It's easier to drown curs than
puppies.

When a 30 year old engineer is called "a girl" by the male engineers she
works with, they will treat her differently than if they call her a woman or
if they just take the whole leap and call her an engineer.

A child who is called "stupid" will not recover as well as one who is spared
that label.

Words have power, and calling something a requirement or a chore both
reflects and creates a reality.

The point of Juliet's speech which was paraphrased << "A rose
would smell as sweet by any other name">> was that as a teen she did NOT
understand the harsh reality of the fact that she and Romeo were parts of
real families and had real names. They could not, ultimately, survive the
reality just by wishing it away.

Sandra

[email protected]

Thanks for the reply. I'm sorry if I made you repeat yourself, but
you have given me a clearer picture of what you've been trying to say.
I think I am sensative(and maybe others too) to the idea of asking
for anything schooly to be done because it would be,for me, a major
slip in my growth into unschooling. Like was said in another post
from you, we are coming at this from different perspectives. I think
it would be helpful to remember that many people come at this
philosophy, fighting the urge to control their childrens learning.
So many are around them, doing the "school" thing, and this is a
place to come where you can be reminded that children don't need
that. Infact, seem to benefit greatly without that. For some people,
that is way easier to see than others. It is way easier for me now,
than it was a year or two ago.
Anyway, I hope this explains a little of the strife here.
Joanna :-)



--- In Unschooling-dotcom@y..., Bridget E Coffman
<rumpleteasermom@j...> wrote:
>
> >> Or at the very least, that you expect NOTHING from them. Is
that
> really
> > > how it works? Is that really what you are advocating as
> unschooling?
> > > Because that is what it sounds like to me.
> > >
> > > Bridget
> > >
> >
> > Your system, as I recall it, included things like writing.
>
> I really don't want to be discussing my system anymore but this
statement
> keeps popping back up again and again. Yes there are some things
> considered (by those who differentiate) schoolwork on our jobs
list. The
> list was worked out by all of us together and was working great. My
> girls asked for a little more 'guidance' with schoolwork. I gave
them
> the bare minimum of suggestion. Things like do a science
experiment or
> write something. The list is always up for revision. If anyone is
> unhappy with any part of it, it is up for discussion (well not the
> dishes).
> But my point here has less to do with how our family 'works' and
more to
> do with the fact that we have been over this repeatedly and I am
still
> being told that I 'require' writing.
>
> > I believe that was the point of contention. Not housework.
> > To me there is a difference in requiring my children to do
chores and
> > help out our family in our everyday lives, and requiring them to
> > learn thing that I believe are important to know. The former
deals
> > with the immediate ( a livable environment, a sane mother ;-/,
> > respect for each other and their things....,) the latter has
nothing
> > to do with me personally and I would feel hugely invasive, and
wrong
> > if I tried to make my children practice writing or math or ....as
if
> >
>
> I NEVER tell them what to learn or think or believe. The only
parts of
> their lives that I have a definitive 'say' over are the parts that
affect
> us all - things like "No Rachel, your painting project can't tie up
the
> dining room table indefinitely - put it on the porch table please."
> Of course that is why I have one witch, one militant agnostic one
> pantheist and one undecided living here with me, the tree worshipper
> (Druids - we don't worship the trees, we worship WITH the trees.) I
> believe it is their right to decide what they believe.
>
> > Do you deny that you require certain school type stuff from
> > your children, even if it is part of a larger choice?(your list,
as
> > I recall). Simply by putting writing on that list implies an
> > importance to you, and a mistrust that writing will be learned,
> > because your children will, on their own, come to see it as a
vital
> > part of their lives.(or not, and therefore don't really need to
do
> > much of it). Requiring anything implies a mistrust in the person
to
> > do it on their own(as I have done with my children and my
household
> > rules), If I ever extend that into areas of their education, I
> > would no longer consider myself an unschooling parent.
> > That's my take on it.
> > Joanna
> >
>
> I don't deny that there are suggections for 'schoolwork' on the
list. I
> do deny that it is MY list. It is OUR list. And as for what is
tied to
> it, Jenni has never had any problems with the household stuff.
Rachel
> has some medical problems and when she gets to doing nothing, the
list is
> an acurate indicator that she needs help - either help avoiding
allergens
> or a medication adjustment. When Rachel is out of whack
physically, she
> looses my mothers car. The list just tells us when that is
happening so
> we can catch it earlier.
> As for overseeing their 'education', I wish . . . I am sick to
death of
> hearing about hydraulic brakes and locomotive wheel bases, but I
still
> have to feign interest anyway.
>
> As I explained before, the list is not about me imposing MY
household
> rules on them. It is about the fact that my husband could not
> disassociate himself from certain things. I sat down with the
girls and
> talked about what needed done and why it was unfair to expect him
to keep
> doing it. The list just defines what has to get done without his
help.
> It is as much for his benefit as any of the rest of us. It just
works
> backwards for him. He in not allowed to do anything on the list
> (generally - there have been exceptions) when he gets home from a
10 hour
> day at work.
>
> I don't care if you don't want to consider us unschoolers or not.
At
> this point I think I would like to NOT be confused with the few
here who
> keep attacking my home life, so maybe I prefer not to be called
that at
> this point. But the one thing I can say for sure is that I am
tired of
> explaining the same things over and over again as if I have not
said it
> before.
>
> Bridget
>
> PS - They KNOW how to string words together. The suggestion arose
> because Rachel wants to go to college in the spring and I think
(from
> personal experience) that it would be helpful if she got used to
writing
> now. (Physically writing - you know as in taking notes and writing
> tests.) So we put it on the list. She has, to my knowledge
written a
> few things but not much. In three weeks or so, I think I've seen
one
> page.
>
> PPS - Someone else said they don't call it a 'chore' it is just
something
> they can do together. That attitude would get a hearty laugh
here. My
> girls have a great sense of wordplay. I suspect if I told them
about
> that, they would decide to start calling all chores "Fred"
or "Albert".
> As in "Who's doing that Fred today?" They are firm believers
in "A rose
> would smell as sweet by any other name."
>
> ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~ ~\/~
~\/~
> Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought
>
> - Henri Bergson

Sharon Rudd

Dear Tia
Please try again after you rest. I still don't know
how to go about segregating unschooling from
parenting. Seems sorta meshed, to me.
Thanks, Sharon
ps was the appendage part of your signature or meant
for me, personally? Just curious.

--- Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:
> At 03:55 PM 9/17/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >Dear Tia
> >
> >Here is a question to unite us: How?
>
> Good question. I guess we have to accept that there
> are unschoolers who
> also unschool parenting, and unschoolers who don't.
> I know there are
> unschoolers who believe children must never be made
> to do anything they
> don't want to, but I'd think they are a subset of
> unschoolers. Like
> unschoolers are a subset of unschoolers. I think
> I'm tying myself up in
> knots here. Clear as mud? Or was that even what
> you were asking? I
> think it's time for bed here. <g>
> Tia
>
> What you think of me is none of my business.
>
*********************************************************
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
>


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Tia Leschke

At 10:34 AM 9/18/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Tia
>Please try again after you rest. I still don't know
>how to go about segregating unschooling from
>parenting. Seems sorta meshed, to me.

I meant the discussion. I know that they're meshed, but there's a
difference between letting children make their own educational choices and
letting them make all the choices in their lives. I know some people let
their children make all the choices, but not all unschoolers do.

>Thanks, Sharon
>ps was the appendage part of your signature or meant
>for me, personally? Just curious.

No it's just one of my sigs. I like to use both of them. I got that one
from the title of a book.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Sharon Rudd

Dear Tia
Wow! That was quick!

I guess I am just dense,BUT, for me it would be
dishonest to pretend, even in discussion, that my
child's life at home as a child is seperate from my
child's experiences as an unschooler. Nor are my
experiences as the mother of my children seperate from
my experiences as an unschooling mother. All of my
experineces are subjective, as are my viewpoints.

Are discussions that include parenting disturbing to
you? Or are you concerned that someone who may be too
fragile will crumple further? Or perhaps put up lots
of defenses that make communication difficult? It
seems to me that lots of viewpoints of similar (never
the same) situations will provide, eventually, some
insights. The type of shields some hold as defenses
provide insights into the nature of what it is that is
being concealed.

I am always pleased to see your posts as your
viewpoint has a sweet maturity that is rare.

Sharon

--- Tia Leschke <leschke@...> wrote:
> At 10:34 AM 9/18/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >Dear Tia
> >Please try again after you rest. I still don't
> know
> >how to go about segregating unschooling from
> >parenting. Seems sorta meshed, to me.
>
> I meant the discussion. I know that they're meshed,
> but there's a
> difference between letting children make their own
> educational choices and
> letting them make all the choices in their lives. I
> know some people let
> their children make all the choices, but not all
> unschoolers do.
>
> >Thanks, Sharon
> >ps was the appendage part of your signature or
> meant
> >for me, personally? Just curious.
>
> No it's just one of my sigs. I like to use both of
> them. I got that one
> from the title of a book.
> Tia
>
> Tia Leschke leschke@...
> On Vancouver Island
>
**************************************************************************
> It is the answers which separate us, the questions
> which unite us. - Janice
> Levy
>
>
>
>
>
>


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> . I know some people let
> their children make all the choices, but not all unschoolers do.
>

I've never known or heard of any family letting a child make "all the
choices" if that means deciding what everyone in the family does. I know the
claim is made sometimes by unschooling's critics that the kids run the
families, but that's not true in any of my experience. I know lots of
parents who are glad to go out of their way to facilitate a child's interest
in tennis or theatre or whatever it is, but that's always been true of some
families whether their kids were in school are not.




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

At 11:24 AM 9/18/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Tia
>Wow! That was quick!

Actually, I wrote that last night but it didn't get sent until this
morning. I don't recover that fast from being tired. <g>


>I guess I am just dense,BUT, for me it would be
>dishonest to pretend, even in discussion, that my
>child's life at home as a child is seperate from my
>child's experiences as an unschooler. Nor are my
>experiences as the mother of my children seperate from
>my experiences as an unschooling mother. All of my
>experineces are subjective, as are my viewpoints.

I was thinking in terms of discussions about whether someone is or isn't
really unschooling. Since there are so many unschoolers that are not also
TCS parents, I would hate to see unschooling defined so rigidly as to
exclude anyone who doesn't follow, or doesn't completely follow, the TCS
line. I mean I've always let my kids make as many of their own choices as
I possibly could, but I'll never be a Sarah Lawrence. <g>


>Are discussions that include parenting disturbing to
>you? Or are you concerned that someone who may be too
>fragile will crumple further? Or perhaps put up lots
>of defenses that make communication difficult? It
>seems to me that lots of viewpoints of similar (never
>the same) situations will provide, eventually, some
>insights. The type of shields some hold as defenses
>provide insights into the nature of what it is that is
>being concealed.

They don't bother me. I just tend to try to be a peacemaker when I can. I
went away for a holiday leaving what seemed like a really nice list that I
was just becoming involved in. I came back to anger and sniping and nyah
nyah nyah. I'm up for a good discussion most any time, but the hostility
here lately has been getting to me.


>I am always pleased to see your posts as your
>viewpoint has a sweet maturity that is rare.

I don't know about the sweet <g> but it might have something to do with the
fact that I'm almost 53. <g> I find it harder and harder to see black and
white without seeing the gray. I spend more time on the fence than I ever
would have thought when I was in my 20's.
Tia

Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island
**************************************************************************
It is the answers which separate us, the questions which unite us. - Janice
Levy

Fetteroll

on 9/18/01 10:42 AM, Sharon Rudd <bearspawprint@...> wrote:

> This sounds interesting. How does this work? Do you
> mean tutors?

No, I mean many colleges have students who will have high school seniors who
are interested in the college stay with them for a weekend so they can see
what the college is like. If the college itself doesn't, then athletic
departments might, especially if they're a small college. No reason you
can't ask if there are students who'd be willing to answer questions by
email or snail mail.

Joyce

Tia Leschke

At 03:13 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:


> > . I know some people let
> > their children make all the choices, but not all unschoolers do.
> >
>
>I've never known or heard of any family letting a child make "all the
>choices" if that means deciding what everyone in the family does. I know the
>claim is made sometimes by unschooling's critics that the kids run the
>families, but that's not true in any of my experience. I know lots of
>parents who are glad to go out of their way to facilitate a child's interest
>in tennis or theatre or whatever it is, but that's always been true of some
>families whether their kids were in school are not.

I meant all the choices for themselves in areas other than education. I'm
thinking in terms of bedtimes, food, clothing, TV. There are many families
that make rules in these areas, but don't insist on any particular learning
activities for their kids. I would still call them unschoolers if the
children are making their own educational choices.
Tia

What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Fetteroll

on 9/18/01 3:13 PM, Bridget E Coffman <rumpleteasermom@...> wrote:

Me:
> She could write tosome students at the colleges she's thinking of and
> *ask* how much writing
> is involved. (Colleges generally have some students who volunteer to
> host others.)

Bridget:
> So, you don't consider my opinion or my husband's valid even though I was
> a student at her chosen college as recently as two years ago and he
> graduated less than 5 years ago? Funny, she considers our opinions
> valid. Well, that and what she WATCHED me doing.

Well I can't see how your specific situation affects a general list of real
writing for real reasons that might be useful to any teen or parent of teen.

If you mistakenly took it for a list directed at you then I'm not sure how
telling someone how ridiculous an idea is for your situation does anything
more than hold that person up to ridicule for either not knowing or
forgetting a fact (shades of evil teachers holding up a child's drawing to
show how wrong it is to color apples blue when she clearly said to color
them red) and make someone second guess about offering any ideas at all.

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 9/18/01 9:04:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
leschke@... writes:


> I meant all the choices for themselves in areas other than education. I'm
> thinking in terms of bedtimes, food, clothing, TV. There are many families
> that make rules in these areas, but don't insist on any particular learning
> activities for their kids. I would still call them unschoolers if the
> children are making their own educational choices.
> Tia

I do my best to give my kids freedom of choice when it comes to education,
and I extend that choice into other aspects of their lives, except when it
comes down to their safety. I feel that way even though one of my children
goes to school, we are still an unschooling family. I feel this way, because
he choose to go to school, he loves being there and he knows he will always
have that choice. I don't have the early morning battles over getting up,
eating... and all that. He loves going. My daughter on the other hand, hated
getting up, resisted eating so early in the morning... since we changed to a
more child-led lifestyle last year, our lives have been much smoother. This
is not to say that my children make all the decisions, and my husband and I
just stand by and let it happen. If I think its time to do something, or go
somewhere, we do so. My kids don't get to say no, they are too young to be
left alone. If one of my children were to say "Im not going to do the dishes
today, I am going to do something else." this is not acceptable as they both
have to participate in daily living activities that benefit the family as a
whole. But should my daughter say "I don't want tuna for lunch", even though
I had fixed it, I would tell her she is welcome to fix something else,
whereas a year ago I would have told her "Im not a short order cook, I fixed
tuna, we are having tuna." I think being an unschooler is one thing, letting
that part of your life into other aspects of you life can take some courage.
We have found it easy to do this, for the most part. I just couldn't see
unschooling becoming an all encompassing part of our lives. There are some
areas of the traditional parent/child relationship I am not willing to give
up.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]